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Ontariotech
5th Oct 2006, 18:39
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5410472.stm

How do these women walk into a bank and conduct business???

Wedge
5th Oct 2006, 18:41
Well said Jack Straw.

G-CPTN
5th Oct 2006, 18:51
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5410472.stm
How do these women walk into a bank and conduct business???
Why would a muslim woman want to go into a BANK? :confused:

shy_one
5th Oct 2006, 18:54
Well said G-CPTN

lexxity
5th Oct 2006, 19:03
I actually agree with Jack Straw. (God or whoever help me.) I find it very uncomfortable talking to women who wear the veil. You can't tell a lot from a shadowed pair of eyes. I know a lot of my collegues also feel this way. You lose so much expression when the face is "taken away" as it were.

I too have to ask ladies to remove their veils (to check their passports) and on the whole they are happy to do so, only once have I had to take a lady into a private room to do so. I can't believe they are comfortable wearing it though, especially when it is hot, but if it really is their own decision then there is little we can do to change their minds.

Ozzy
5th Oct 2006, 19:16
Islamic Human Rights CommissionThere's another oxymoron...:ugh:

Ozzy

haughtney1
5th Oct 2006, 19:23
Of all the people that the mad mulla minority could accuse of descrimination, Jack Straw couldn't be one of them..........which is precisely why I think he has bought this up. The government are trying to learn the lessons of the past years of immigration mismanagement, allowing islamic radicalisation, and worst of all....allowing the likes of Hamza and that lebanese guy to live here for so long on benefits and still preach Jihad/murder etc.....
Its no accident, and I await further "announcements", common sense needs to reign here....and the few Muslims that feel it is acceptable to live in 21st century Britain in the same way there forefathers lived in the sandpit 300 years ago....need to pull there collective heads in, and get with the programme.

DaveO'Leary
5th Oct 2006, 19:41
I would find it 'slightly' erotic when the veil is lifted:} Hope Jack Straw keeps both of his hands on the desk:hmm:

Just a thought, how do they smoke a cigarette?

MO'L

Grandpa
5th Oct 2006, 19:54
For men of course!

I'm tired being harassed by women you see.................

wing_it
5th Oct 2006, 19:55
Just a thought, how do they smoke a cigarette?



Muslim women smoke !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

O'Leary - shame on you !

It was funny - when I went to Iran a few years ago our tour guide was a smoker and she and the other 2 women smokers used to lurk around quiet spots having a secret fag. Not sure if it was humiliating and annoying or slightly erotic to be adopting such 'child like behaviour' at the age of 40+. Might make one feel young again...

who am I kidding ... it's a complete pain in the arse!!!

In the airport at Isfahan (I think or maybe Shiraz) there were photos commemorating an anniversary in the Iran/Iraq war. Some were covered with little curtains (I peeked behind of course). When I asked the (she was a great woman) tour guide why she said it was because they were gory - that way women and children didn't have to look at them ...

Fabulous country - wonderful people - can't wait to go back even though I looked far far from my best in the required rig...

Mac the Knife
5th Oct 2006, 20:07
I can't help feeling than any religion which believes that men and women are so concuspicient that women must be swathed from head to toe or they'd all immediately start doing it in the street is somewhat bizarre.

But perhaps it's adherents really are so lascivious that strong restraints are necessary. Certainly the behaviour of male disciples towards unveiled women would lead one to think so.

tony draper
5th Oct 2006, 20:08
What about applying this new hoody law they were going to bring in.:rolleyes:

slim_slag
5th Oct 2006, 20:24
Yeah, and how does the barman know how old they are when they want to buy lager and sweet sherry? Sounds to me like an excuse not to get their round in.

Mercenary Pilot
5th Oct 2006, 20:29
that women must be swathed from head to toe or they'd all immediately start doing it in the street is somewhat bizarre.


I take it you havn't been into town for a few beers on a Friday/Saturday night recently then. ;)

DaveO'Leary
5th Oct 2006, 20:36
Thing that pis** me off (no offence to them) every news item muslim, muslim news items. Are we being socially engineered?

Where is Bernard Manning when we need him?

MO'L

G-CPTN
5th Oct 2006, 20:37
Muslim. Women. Cigarettes. Alcohol.
You just don't GET this Islam thing, do you? :ugh:
The dress is to protect the women from the lascivious attentions of the 'arab' male. Witness their behaviour whenever Western women appear in public in Muslim lands. If you cover it overall with a black cloth it disappears. MAGIC!

DaveO'Leary
5th Oct 2006, 21:02
The knights Templer must be turning in their graves, spilt blood, for what? Wish we had the balls as they had all those years ago. England, my England our England.

DO'L

Paranoid Parrot
5th Oct 2006, 21:18
I always remember an expression: 'When in Rome do what the Romans do'. I always try to respect the views of the people when I visit their country. Why can't they do the same when they come to our country? In fact in many Muslim countries their views are enforcable by law.

Miserlou
5th Oct 2006, 21:24
I had to giggle at the third paragraph of the linked story, "Islamic Human Rights Commission".

That seems to me like a contradiction in terms, 'Islamic' and 'Human Rights'.

Fully support common sense, though. Surely it is the duty of an immigrant to fit in to the community which he has chosen to become a part of. Perhaps that is the point; they have chosen 'not' to become a part of the community.

Whirlygig
5th Oct 2006, 21:29
In western culture we look at each others' faces when we talk to each other. By not adopting this "cusomt" when living in a western land, muslim women will alienate themselves from the culture in which they have chosen to live and in which it is claimed, they wish integration.

Can't have it both ways.

Cheers

Whirls

G-CPTN
5th Oct 2006, 21:36
I always remember an expression: 'When in Rome do what the Romans do'. I always try to respect the views of the people when I visit their country.
Surely it is the duty of an immigrant to fit in to the community which he has chosen to become a part of.
You mean like we did in India?

El Grifo
5th Oct 2006, 21:43
First place I ever found that my wife was causing some kind of dress offence was in Jerusalem in 1973. Not at the Western Wall, not at the Church of the Holy Sepuchure and not in the Garden of Gethsemene.

Surprise surprise, it was at the Muslim dome of the rock where admittance was refused unless all sorts of varied rags were wrapped round her torso, making her look like the bag lady of the century.

Stick your dome up your jacksy sez I :suspect:

How would an Islamic Imam react if my 26 year old daughter showed up for an interview wearing a mini skirt and a halter top. Yeah right !!!


Shape up or ship out sez I :}

Cheerio
5th Oct 2006, 22:04
I don't know who is manipulating who in our relationship with the meeja (and I feel someone is distinctly yanking my strings), but I really am getting fed up with this relentless Muslim agenda. Every day its some new 'outrage', expression of anger, injustice, demand..... push, push push. I feel like I'm almost in a corner, and thats not a good place to force people. Bad things result. Who is it driving this agenda?

G-CPTN
5th Oct 2006, 22:06
All*h . . . .






.......................................

Miserlou
5th Oct 2006, 22:09
G-CPTN,
Not quite the same situation nor was it 'us'; our ancesters, maybe but we have moved on.
Anyway, the empire was built by the rules which everybody applied; the strongest tribe rules.

Willows
5th Oct 2006, 22:39
You can't read someone's emotion or reaction to what you're saying when they have almost their entire face covered.

So much human communication is non verbal and I'd guess a lot of that comes from the face, unless of course you get a kick in the privates or something.

What's the reason for wearing those veils? They're ridiculous, unless of course there's a rational explanation for wearing one in which case I plead guilty to ignorance but I highly doubt there is a good reason.

I've had enough of this Muslim tripe ... getting so worked up over nothing. Asked to remove a piece of cloth from your face? So what? Boo ******* hoo. Cartoons of the Prophet? So what? Like there hasn't been cartoons of Buddha, Jesus, etc. over the years. :*

Stop the world, I want to get off. :rolleyes: :(

Capt. Queeg
5th Oct 2006, 22:41
relentless Muslim agenda...... Good luck over-coming it, there's only a beeyun of the beggars....

Now's a good time to start.

AcroChik
5th Oct 2006, 23:10
There have been instances in the US of muslim women refusing to bare their face for a drivers license photo or passport photo. In the US, drivers licenses are granted by the individual states; passports are granted by the federal government.

Various organizations representing the rights of muslims have brought test cases on this issue before state and federal courts claiming that the right to cover one's face over-rides the need of a government to confirm by photo the identity of a person. They say this is a "First Ammendment" right:

U.S. Bill of Rights, Amendment I:

Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof; or abridging the freedom of speech, or of the press; or the right of the people peaceably to assemble, and to petition the government for a redress of grievances.

All cases brought on this issue have been lost by the plaintiffs, and appealed to higher courts where judgements have been upheld.

european champion
5th Oct 2006, 23:26
There is nothing more erotic than seeing the beautiful brown eyes of a woman wrapped all over,i think the person who invented this must have had a very advanced mind.

con-pilot
6th Oct 2006, 00:08
There is nothing more erotic than seeing the beautiful brown eyes of a woman wrapped all over,i think the person who invented this must have had a very advanced mind.

Take a walk down Venice Beach California in the summer and see if you still hold those views.:p (Or the Sun Set Beach Bar on the Island of St. Maarten.)

But then again, to each his own, that's what makes the world go around. But don't even try to force the ladies of Venice Beach (or other like areas in the world) cover up to suite your views.

ehwatezedoing
6th Oct 2006, 00:21
Take a walk down Venice Beach California in the summer and see if you still hold those views.:p


Or any topless beach south of France.

:ok:

toothpic
6th Oct 2006, 01:25
I am truly saddened and angry at the chain of events that is overtaking this country of ours.
I have always believed in a diverse society where everyone is equal, and has the same chances and opportunities in life.
Now it seems there are two societies in our country, those with rights and those without. As a white British person can I criticise a Moslem for his beliefs or attitudes, no I am branded a rascist and could be arrested.
Can a Moslem openly preach holy Jihad and plot the downfall of my society, to be replaced by some "fantasy" of a Sharia Islamic republic, yes he can.
Members of our armed forces abused in hospital whilst recovering from their wounds by Moslems....and asked to remove their uniform in case it causes offence
A BBC presenter pilloried by her bosses for wearing a crucifix...
What next no "Songs of Praise" for fear of upsetting the Mullahs?
Ordinary Moslems in this country are themselves embarrased by the furore caused by some of these events. they are not offended by the sight of a crucifix, they are generally tolerant people, out to look after their familys and pay their bills like the rest of us. they have had their religion hijacked by extremists.
The government must take the tough decision now to crack down on these extremists and remove them from this country, or God help us!

prospector
6th Oct 2006, 01:57
The god to help us, would that be the jew one the christian one or the muslim one????

TBirdFrank
6th Oct 2006, 02:12
Almost forty years ago a friend and I used to go the same methodist church youth club. I took RE to A level and also visited Ulster as the troubles were breaking out again.

It all completely vapourised any respect for religion that I had. Between intellectual arguments over what any phrase may actually mean, and proddies and left footers bombing each other over the same bible, I left religion - all religion behind.

My friend went on to be a vicar in the Church of England. He baptised Leo three months ago!

Now here is another religion, sprung from common roots, with its own sub variants, perverting and destroying the lives of millions.

It ain't worth it. Its a fairy story, and if you want to talk to me, let's do it face to face - full face!

Ontariotech
6th Oct 2006, 03:15
I suggest, we all wear ski masks when we go shopping, or when going to the bank, or driving down the street. You know the ones, just like the SAS wear. And we can all claim them it to be apart of our anti skin cancer regiment. Why not? It's my right, is it not? I am protecting myself from the harmful effects of the sun. Try doing that and walking into a bank or a store. Aghhhhh...I would remove it as it is a safety issue.

Religon should be practiced in a church or in a mosque, a place of worship, or other local as to not offend others. I can turn away as is my right. But when the practice interfeers with others, such as law enforcement, or an event where facial recognition is required for the safety of others, ie a bank, store, or other public place where facial recognition is required, pull down the veil. Out of respect for those who do not subscribe to your views or religous beliefs.

I have been a cop for several years, and I always...always remove my sunglasses when dealing with anyone. Ask me if I am given the same respect from others when it involes these veils on the streets of Toronto. Never.

Makes me wanna :yuk:

prospector
6th Oct 2006, 04:29
Perhaps more people are now being made aware that this is not a religion as such, or as the majority of christians accept a religion. This doctrine governs your whole life, it has not been amended since it was written, by paid scribes, dictated by a person with only the knowledge that was prevalent 600 years ago.
Perhaps more thinking people will now consider the 5th column theory with a bit more diligence.

BombayDuck
6th Oct 2006, 04:40
You mean like we did in India?

Immigrants v/s Rulers.... makes things a bit different, na?

NuName
6th Oct 2006, 06:16
I am truly saddened and angry at the chain of events that is overtaking this country of ours.
I have always believed in a diverse society where everyone is equal, and has the same chances and opportunities in life.
Now it seems there are two societies in our country, those with rights and those without. As a white British person can I criticise a Moslem for his beliefs or attitudes, no I am branded a rascist and could be arrested.
Can a Moslem openly preach holy Jihad and plot the downfall of my society, to be replaced by some "fantasy" of a Sharia Islamic republic, yes he can.
Members of our armed forces abused in hospital whilst recovering from their wounds by Moslems....and asked to remove their uniform in case it causes offence
A BBC presenter pilloried by her bosses for wearing a crucifix...
What next no "Songs of Praise" for fear of upsetting the Mullahs?
Ordinary Moslems in this country are themselves embarrased by the furore caused by some of these events. they are not offended by the sight of a crucifix, they are generally tolerant people, out to look after their familys and pay their bills like the rest of us. they have had their religion hijacked by extremists.
The government must take the tough decision now to crack down on these extremists and remove them from this country, or God help us!
This says it all. We have nothing to fear or resent from the Muslims, only the idiot faction presents a problem. All society's have their idiot faction including us. If we do not find some common ground to build our futures together the UK will descend into mayhem. We cannot wind the clock back but only move forward. This veil thing is practised by a very small percentage of Muslims and who cares anyway. I find it quiet difficult to hold a meaningful conversation with a individual who has found it desirable to force large lumps of metal through ears, lips, noses, eyebrows and other strange places, but its up to them. I do not agree with what they do but I have to respect their right to do it. I suspect they loose out in some ways because of it as will the veiled ones. If they accept that then so do I.

Whirlygig
6th Oct 2006, 07:15
....proddies and left footers bombing each other over the same bible,...
Just a little point-ette by the way - the conflict in Northern Ireland was not one of religion but of which country ruled the province. It was not a religious war.

Cheers

Whirls

Miserlou
6th Oct 2006, 07:54
Whirlygig,
NI may not have been a religious affair but the loyalists and the republicans were coincidentally split protestant, catholic respectively.
Therefore, religion was a quick and easy way to identify which side you were likely to support and the soldiers were only there to keep the two sides apart. A problem for catholic business leaders who gained much from the UK government.

Regardless of the government, the two communities were never on friendly terms anyway, which makes one wonder whether the division was a way of expressing thieir animosity. Chicken or egg?

Lon More
6th Oct 2006, 07:59
Just back from tanking up the van. Big sign at the petrol station advising bikers to remove their helmets before filling up; wonder if a discrimination case could be made against them as there is nothing about veil wearing women?

lexxity
6th Oct 2006, 08:34
Have just watched BBC Beakfast where they were speaking to a Muslim lady (I forget her name), who is a Birmingham councillor and a member of the respect party, and Rod Liddle. For once the BBC actually tried to have a debate and try and show the Muslim woman the number of emails they had recieved agreeing with Jack Straw, not just from White people, but from Muslim women. The Muslim lady wouldn't even acknowledge existence of these emails and you should have seen her argue when Rod Liddle said that it was male interpretation of the Qu'ran that dictated she must wear her Hijab.:rolleyes:

If Women such as this councillor refuse to discuss the issue then where does that leave us? Still in an us and them situation.

MReyn24050
6th Oct 2006, 08:54
Just back from tanking up the van. Big sign at the petrol station advising bikers to remove their helmets before filling up; wonder if a discrimination case could be made against them as there is nothing about veil wearing women?

Whilst on the subject of driving, on many of occasions I have seen women driving wearing the veil. Should I ever be involved or witness a traffic accident in which the driver was so dressed am I in my rights to ask her to remove her veil. Otherwise how could I provide evidence regarding who was driving?

Choxolate
6th Oct 2006, 08:55
The wearing of the veil is (I think) not a requirement of Islam - it is a cultural interpretation of the requirement to dress modestly - with many Islamic groups not making the same interpretation.

Like many posters here I am absolutley fed up with news items, discussion programs etc majoring on Islam and muslims. Thre BBCs "Iran Week" is a good example of continuous propaganda showing how "normal" (i.e reasonable) the Iranians really are, how they are cuddly and peace loving people with a great sense of humour and wonderful food, now the West ( and the US in particular) are greedy oil grabbing warmongers who just cause problems to the friendly mis-represented Iranians.

If the "reasonable" Muslims don't start actively disowning and reporting the mad b*stards among them pdq there will be BIG trouble. The tacit acceptance with comments such as "I don't approve of their methods but I understand the frustrations of my Muslim brothers" is not good enough. They should be APPALLED by, and publically and repeatedly reject the insane few by reporting them to the authorities and ejecting them from their mosques, schools and society or they will reap the seeds of destruction sown by their fanatical "brothers".

Unfortunately this will probably not happen - the inter-Islamic bond is, for some strange reason, considered to be more important than any other loyalty, even to kith and kin. Weird or what?

Argonautical
6th Oct 2006, 09:27
There is a lot of talk about it being the woman's choice to wear the veil but I wonder if that is true in many cases. It may be that her choice is actually the choice of her husband or the male members of her family.

Curious Pax
6th Oct 2006, 09:28
A BBC presenter pilloried by her bosses for wearing a crucifix
Complete fiction! The Beeb were having a seminar about impartiality in the news, and the discussion moved to a Muslim woman newsreader wearing a headscarf, and whether this implied bias. The discussion then went on to include Fiona Bruce's cross that she wears from time to time.
No info about the conclusions, but the fact that nothing has been said to Ms Bruce by her bosses to discourage her from wearing said necklace suggests that it was in conflict with the objective of impartiality. The quotes around that said she shouldn't wear it were by a guy who no longer works for the BBC, which says to me that no one currently working for the BBC wished to take that view (even anonymously) - you can bet your bottom dollar that if they had those comments would have got more prominence.
Not surprising that some Ppruners are getting their knickers in a twist about everything in the news being Muslim-related when such a non-story as this generates so much hot air.

NuName
6th Oct 2006, 09:37
There is a lot of talk about it being the woman's choice to wear the veil but I wonder if that is true in many cases. It may be that her choice is actually the choice of her husband or the male members of her family.
I used to work in Saudi Arabia. When taking the flight to London there were always a great deal of veiled hijab wearing women. During the flight the toilets were in great demand. I sleep, and, hey presto, hardly any to be seen. On the way back loads of attractive young ladies sporting the latest fashions, on arrival only black. Not rocket science. BUT, the change will have to come from within their ranks, we will never be able to impose it. And who gives a damn anyway.

tony draper
6th Oct 2006, 09:52
I have been doing jobs in and around Bradford for thirty years,I don't seem to recal this preponderance of ethnic dress among the Asian population that we see now,on a friday yes the men were dressed for the Mosque,and ladies did wear saries or whatever they are called I do not recal women wandering about with bags over their heads,24/7 this phenomenon seems to have come about in the last ten or fifteen years.

G-CPTN
6th Oct 2006, 09:52
People who overtly dress 'differently' should not be surprised if they draw attention to themselves, whether it be as a skinhead, goth, punk, hoodie, hasidic jew, sikh, rastafarian, hari-krishna, monk, nun, airline-pilot, 'muslim' or whatever.
I've lived in places near suburbs populated almost exclusively by 'eastern-dress' wearing residents (and I had no problems with that - but I'm not a racist).
There is NO excuse for abusing people because of their ethnicity, but, they shouldn't be surprised if their dress-mode DOES highlight their difference (where adopting western-habit would enable them to blend into 'society').

flugholm
6th Oct 2006, 09:58
It's funny to see the following google ad appearing right on the top of this very page:

>Muslim women clothing
>Meet hundreds of thousands of muslim singles for love, friendship
>
>Al-Ikhlas Clothing
>Quality products wholesale & retail Free shipping in US - Ship 3-4 days
>
>Ads by google

:ugh:

parabellum
6th Oct 2006, 11:02
If asked I think I would summarise it thus:-

Jack Straw has just told Muslim women in Britain that they would do better not to wear face veils - which perpetuate "the parallel society" ?(We have officially given up on the notion that multi-cultural society means that each religion/race lives in its own way, parallel but separate from all the others - although the government evidently does not feel strong enough to say that all faith schools should be abolished - the C of E and RC churches would be outraged, despite what happened in Northern Ireland). I don't think we have much to learn from the USA, but they certainly manage their vast array of cultures far better than we do - they think of Woody Allen as an American who happens to be Jewish, not a Jew who happens to be American. And if you think that is because he is white, there's Colin Powell and Condoleezza Rice - I don't even know what their racial origins are! I wish we could say the same. We have such a long way to go, and I fear much riot and revolution before we get there. Even in America they had the Civil War - they have been solving this problem much longer than we have.

Taildragger55
6th Oct 2006, 12:17
I don't have a problem with veils.
As long as they take them off when they play Poker.

BellEndBob
6th Oct 2006, 12:53
I cannot believe that posters on here are getting so wound up over such a trivial matter. We have lost sight of what is truly important in this country, and society is all the poorer for it. This whole affair has detracted from the fact that tomorrow night is the final Boot Camp for the X-Factor contestants. Come on people, time to put things in perspective.

Now, if they got the lady in the wheelchair to wear a veil, she would win hands down.

phnuff
6th Oct 2006, 13:56
A week or so ago, I saw a woman on the tube wearing the full guinness bottle outfit, with what appeared to be a grid for eye holes and propped on the outside was a pair of specs. She looked ridiculous and quite frankly pretty scary; a fact which was echo'd by the worried look in the eyes of a child near her. I am all for people following what ever doctrine they wish to, but I do also believe in the idea that you obey the customs etc. of the society in which you find yourself. Hence on my trips to the middle east, I never drank even though in Abu Dhabi/Dubai and at the time Qatar, it would have been tolerated. The veil has no place in modern western society and if someone wants to wear it, they should go to a society in which it is considered appropriate. Well done Jack Straw

XXTSGR
6th Oct 2006, 14:08
El Grifo, my wife has also been told to cover up. Not in the Middle East or some other Islamic country, but in Greece, when visiting a church. So "western" standards of dress tolerance are not quite as ubiquitous as you might suppose.

Choxolate, I agree with the first two paras of your post. You are correct that the hijab (or the niqb) are not religious requirements, but are cultural interpretations of the Qu'ranic requirement for "modesty" not just in women but in men as well - go figure! Just as catholics might interpret the RC church's teachings on contraception differently, so Muslims interpret the Qu'ran differently.

But then you spoil it all by saying:-If the "reasonable" Muslims don't start actively disowning and reporting the mad b*stards among them pdq there will be BIG trouble. The tacit acceptance with comments such as "I don't approve of their methods but I understand the frustrations of my Muslim brothers" is not good enough. They should be APPALLED by, and publically and repeatedly reject the insane few by reporting them to the authorities and ejecting them from their mosques, schools and society or they will reap the seeds of destruction sown by their fanatical "brothers".

Unfortunately this will probably not happen - the inter-Islamic bond is, for some strange reason, considered to be more important than any other loyalty, even to kith and kin. Weird or what?I am getting so, so tired of telling people here time and time and time again that it IS happening. If you look for it you can see and hear it happening. The trouble is that it is not sexy news, so it doesn't get reported. But Muslims have been marching in demonstration against terrorism, against fundamentalism, in favour of tolerance of other people's religions, etc. etc. Imams have been preaching moderation in Islam and against "violent jihad. But it doesn't get reported. What more are we supposed to do?

prospector, your post is so ignorant and ill-thought out that it is hardly worth responding to. I should, however, point out that, taken seriously, Christianity should govern your whole life as well. Judaism also governs a lot of your way of life. Islam most certainly IS a religion, like it or not. So please stop trying to denigrate it with your lies and half-truths.

Cheerio
6th Oct 2006, 14:19
I am getting so, so tired of telling people here time and time and time again that it IS happening. If you look for it you can see and hear it happening. The trouble is that it is not sexy news, so it doesn't get reported.

That is my point, it would seem the someone, somewhere is either deliberately or innocently manipulating the media to aggravate a inflammatory situation.

I don't care about hijabs and righteous anger, I don't care to hear that there is a moderate majority. As you probably do XX, I wish it would just go away as a daily agenda. Its just not important to me, I want to hear proper news for a change, and not have my blood pressure elevated by some Islamic talking head on the Today programme every morning. Yes I know there is a solution to that, but its ridiculous to have to become a news hermit to escape it.

Why can't the media see the damage they are doing? Or can they?

XXTSGR
6th Oct 2006, 14:30
Some very good points there, Cheerio. Someone, somewhere has an agenda. I am very tired of hearing "Muslim this", "Muslim that"... The Media are not helping the climate of hysteria, of building up to some sort of witch-hunt, of tarring all of Islam with the brush used to cover extremist madmen.

I think this is (or, rather, SHOULD BE) a non-story. Jack Straw's comments would never have made the media a few years back. In the current climate, I think he was stupid to say what he did, but doing what he is doing and the way he is doing it I see little problem with. He says he always has a female chaperone present, so I don't think there should be much offence taken. He does need to be very sensitive, given the current climate about how he makes the suggestion/request. However, given the current situation, given that (presumably) it is the woman's choice to wear the veil, and given that he is a public servant (supposedly) rather than a member of the "ruling classes" he needs to consider whose requirements come first - his or those of his contituents?

Ontariotech
6th Oct 2006, 14:37
Now he doesn't want them wearing them at all. Good for you Jack. Stick to your guns.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/politics/5411954.stm

Miserlou
6th Oct 2006, 14:42
I support the Jack Straw's comments and the debate.

It may be apparently insignificant on a world stage but for so long it has not been acceptable to discuss these matters in public as the PC-luvvies would have had you censored.

Free speech and common sense are, perhaps, making a comeback.

I'd like to add that I think more air time should be given to the extremists so that we can all see how deranged they are.

mary_hinge
6th Oct 2006, 14:55
They had a section on this during Jeremy Vine show today (BBC Radio 2). During this they had a phone in from another Radio Station – Radio Ramadan, based in Birmingham… The same Birmingham where the word Christmas is banned FFS :mad: :ugh:

rogueflyer01
6th Oct 2006, 14:59
As a Muslim, women do not have to wear the veil. A head scarf is sufficient to comply with islamic law. It's a womens personal choice if they cover up at all.

I wonder if Jack straw would ask a women to cover up if she was wearing a short mini skirt and was revealing her breasts...:confused:

:ok:

El Grifo
6th Oct 2006, 15:14
Hard to say what Jack would do, but a Muslim cleric would most likely spit in her face and call her a whore.

Whats worse, that would be in her OWN country. If she tried that in an islamic country, I dare not think of the consequences.

Death and cutting up into small pieces springs to mind though !!

Ontariotech
6th Oct 2006, 15:16
Rogueflyer,

Apples to oranges I am afraid.

People are routinely asked to cover up in all parts of the world. It'e even sign posted in most resturants. No shirt, no shoes, no service.

This is a unique, and entirley different issue. Me being a police officer in Toronto, look at it as a safety issue when these veiled women are driving, or when in a bank, or in a store.

But I think Mr. straw is making the argument for this being a barrier to relations between "us" and "them". They are the ones who wish to live in our society as an equal. It is they who choose to utilize our freedom of expression and religion, but when it is us who say, please try to confom to some of our standards as you are living in our country, and show respect by removing your veil, they are the ones who argue why? Why should I, it is my right. How dare you infringe on my right "to be different".:=

european champion
6th Oct 2006, 15:43
I dont want to go out of the subject,i think it is quite relevant.Does anyone know any website special for dating where i can meet muslim women?im interested in friendship or relationship,and if its worth it marriage,why not?

onetrack
6th Oct 2006, 15:51
O.K. .. first it's the hijab .. then it's this following step .. in the "Muslimisation" of the decadent West .. :hmm: :suspect:

http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20509977-401,00.html

Methinks if a taxi-driver can't cope with the varied demands that go with the job of being a TD .. he should be dismissed on the spot ..

Maybe .. more importantly .. let them know, that we in the West, have a culture that is not going to become subservient, to demands that OUR CULTURE must meet Muslim requirements .. how long before we have Muslim (violent) protests .. that our democractically elected Govts are offending Allah, by carrying out Govt decisions that are not in accordance with the teachings of the Koran??? .. :ooh:

In the old days, it was called conquering by stealth .. and I'm not so sure that the old days haven't returned .. :suspect:

eastern wiseguy
6th Oct 2006, 16:46
Insomuch as all this is a media inspired frenzy ....content yourselves with this...give them another four weeks and they will all be occupied with the imminent death of millions caused by Bird Flu.....:ugh: :ugh:

Mariner9
6th Oct 2006, 17:11
Does anyone know any website special for dating where i can meet muslim women?im interested in friendship or relationship,and if its worth it marriage,why not?

Have a look at the contact ads in Asian Babes :E Not many veils there ;)

G-CPTN
6th Oct 2006, 17:25
Not even seven?

Mariner9
6th Oct 2006, 17:27
From what I've seen, seven wouldn't be enough in some cases :p

rogueflyer01
6th Oct 2006, 17:28
living in our country

are the ones who wish to live in our society as an equal

Lets see, i pay my taxes as do many of them, they were born & educated here as was i and i consider this MY COUNTRY so surly i should be able to wear and do what i want within the confinds of the law in my own country :confused:...my society to...

When i see on friday nights young men and women getting drunk and showing various parts of their body i feel uncomfortable yet i stay quiet and accept it because its part of the society i live in. Unless of course you dont consider british muslims british? :=

they are the ones who argue why?

Because its like asking vicars to remove their robes, or to remove the cross from inside the churches and jews the skull cap...it should be left to the individual to have the choice..if you feel uncomfortable...tough...

Lets have a open debate on what's british now.....

- - Sadly this is probably not going to be the last occurance of muslim bashing which is so prevelant these days...:yuk:

red3
6th Oct 2006, 17:29
The next time a walking tent comes into his constituency surgery I think our Jack should pull on his black balaclava (a la jihadi videos) and say 'what seems to be the problem?'.....

Bluesteel705
6th Oct 2006, 18:22
- - Sadly this is probably not going to be the last occurance of muslim bashing which is so prevelant these days...:yuk:

I know its bloody terrible. Cant walk down the street without hordes of angry white middle aged women strapping on some semtex and blowing themselves themselves up in the name of Jesus, just so they can get their 40 virgins!!:sad:


I bet you if I went to Iran and opened an all night bar and bacon sandwich grill and started preaching a message of death to Muslims because the bible says Ive got to, well I'm sure they'd welcome me with open arms and ban Ramadan in case it offended me :E :hmm:

con-pilot
6th Oct 2006, 18:31
Okay, this may be a stupid question, however, as I can't find the answer anywhere else I'll ask the question here.

Are there any Christian Churches, Catholic, Baptist, etc in Iran?

(Let alone Synagogues.)

Um... lifting...
6th Oct 2006, 18:36
Okay, this may be a stupid question, however, as I can't find the answer anywhere else I'll ask the question here.
Are there any Christian Churches, Catholic, Baptist, etc in Iran?
(Let alone Synagogues.)

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians_in_Iran
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

AcroChik
6th Oct 2006, 18:38
"Like other religious minorities in Iran, Jews suffer from officially sanctioned discrimination, particularly in the areas of employment, education, and housing. They may not occupy senior positions in the government or the military and are prevented from serving in the judiciary and security services and from becoming public school heads.

The anti?Israel policies of the Iranian government, along with a perception among radical Muslims that all Jewish citizens support Zionism and the State of Israel, create a hostile atmosphere for the Jewish community. In 2004, many Iranian newspapers celebrated the one-hundredth anniversary of the publishing of the anti-Semitic forgery The Protocols of the Elders of Zion.

Jews often are the target of degrading caricatures in the Iranian press. Jewish leaders reportedly are reluctant to draw attention to official mistreatment of their community due to fear of government reprisal.

...

Most Jews are nowadays living in Tehran, the capital. There are currently 100 synagogues in Iran, a quarter of them in Tehran. Traditionally however, Shiraz, Hamedan, Isfahan, Nahawand, Babol and some other cities of Iran have been home to large populations of Jews."

Link to entire article:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Persian_Jews

Looks like Um... lifting... beat me to it yet again.

G-CPTN
6th Oct 2006, 18:39
http://www.farsinet.com/icc/iran.html
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Christians_in_Iran

tony draper
6th Oct 2006, 18:44
Thats democracy for ya, there are 1,500,000 of them here and only 59,000,000 of us, so the way the system apparently works they have the biggest say in what goes.
:rolleyes:

lexxity
6th Oct 2006, 18:57
Because its like asking vicars to remove their robes, or to remove the cross from inside the churches and jews the skull cap

This is not the same issue at all. I find talking to another woman wearing the veil uncomfortable because I CANNOT SEE THEIR FACE. Why should I have to feel uncomfortable in my country? Where in the Qu'ran does it say that women have to walk around totally covered from head to foot? I thought it said modestly? I would say that I am dressed modestly today. I am wearing blue jeans and a double layer top which comes to the top of my jeans with 3/4 length arms.

North West Tonight have just interviewed a Muslim woman dressed in the Nica (sp?) and they asked her if she felt she should fit in with the culture of this country, her reply was "what is the culture of this country?" She also claimed that in an all female gathering the veil and headscarf were removed, evidently not when white women are present. I attend mother and baby groups where women only are present and they do not remove their veils and they do not attempt to communicate with others. I usually say hi and ask about their child, but I am ignored, normally this is enough to spark a chat with any other woman.

PartOrbit
6th Oct 2006, 19:25
Personally I've a lot of time for the views of the John Howard, Australian PM.

If only we could have a government like that.

If you wish to live in Britain you should live by British values, this is not a Muslim country. If you wish to wear a veil, you will remain part of a minority and as such must expect to be treated differently. Just as the Westerners living and working in the Middle East must.

Britain for the British (regardless of background, race, creed or colour)

Keef
6th Oct 2006, 19:30
There used to be an Anglican Church in Iran, with Bishop Dehqani-Tafti (a saintly man) as its head. What happened to him and his family is horrible.

He moved to the UK and was found a post here.

It is not a good idea to be anything other than Moslem in Iran - and then, you'd better pick the right version of Islam for where you live. A bit like parts of London these days, if the hecklers at a certain speech are to be accepted.

Mercenary Pilot
6th Oct 2006, 19:44
On the subject of John Howard. I got emailed this recently, im not sure how acurate it is as it didnt have a reference.


Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday
to get out of Australia , as the government targeted radicals in a bid to
head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to
Australia and her Queen at a special meeting with Prime Minister John
Howard, he and his Ministers made it clear that extremists would face a
crackdown.

Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that
some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not
accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by
parliament. "If those are not your values, if you want a country which
has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he
said on national television.

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws
governing people in Australia : one the Australian law and another the
Islamic law, that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law,
independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the
opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then,
that's a better option", Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said
those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other
country. Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that
Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off.
Basically people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want to
live by Australian values and understand them, well then, they can
basically clear off", he said.

Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques Quote:
"IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It. I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali , we have experienced
a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians." "However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the 'politically correct' crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others.

I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against
anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia ." "However,
there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country,
and apparently some born here, need to understand." "This idea of
Australia being a multicultural community has served only to dilute our
sovereignty and our national identity.

As Australians, we have our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle." "This culture has been developed over two centuries of
struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have
sought freedom"

"We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese,
Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to
become part of our society, Learn the language!"

"Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing,
political push, but a fact, because Christian men and women, on Christian
principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is
certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God
offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, because God is part of our culture."

"We will accept your beliefs, and will not question why. All we ask is
that you accept ours, and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with
us."

"If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like " A Fair Go", then
you should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet. We
are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really
don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means, keep
your culture, but do not force it on others.

"This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you
every opportunity to enjoy all this. But once you are done complaining,
whining, and griping about Our Flag, Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs,
or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage you take advantage of one other
great Australian freedom, 'THE RIGHT TO LEAVE'."

"If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here.
You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted."

Ontariotech
6th Oct 2006, 20:05
Lexxity,

Seems Rougeflyer has an issue with the comparison of apples to oranges.

Rougeflyer,

AND MY SOCIETY DOES NOT INCLUDE WOMEN COVERING THEIR FACE WHEN OUT IN PUBLIC. MUSLIM WOMEN CHOOSE TO DO IT. IT IS NOT A REQUIREMENT TO DO IT. THERFORE, WE ASK, OUT OF RESPECT FOR OUR VALUES, ONE WHICH INCLUDES WOMEN, NOT COVERING THEIR FACE, THAT MUSLIM WOMEN DO THE SAME.

Do you remove your shoes at the front door of someone elses house Rougeflyer? Even if it is customary for you to wear them in your own house?

MReyn24050
6th Oct 2006, 20:55
If the report Mercenary Pilot refers to is correct I just wish that Tony Blair would come up with a similar statement which I am sure every Brit would support.

tony draper
6th Oct 2006, 21:28
Not every Brit, just the other 59 million of us. :rolleyes:

prospector
6th Oct 2006, 22:30
XXTSGR
'prospector, your post is so ignorant and ill-thought out that it is hardly worth responding to. I should, however, point out that, taken seriously, Christianity should govern your whole life as well. Judaism also governs a lot of your way of life. Islam most certainly IS a religion, like it or not. So please stop trying to denigrate it with your lies and half-truths"

Common ground at least.,I think that your ignorance is only exceeded by your arrogance.

Which part of my post was lies? that would be the part you disagree with?

Which part is half truths? would that perhaps be the part that said the book was written by paid scribes, because the author was illiterate, some 600 years ago.

You really expect thinking people to believe this same god, that all the Abrahamic religions worship, is a reality, some of the activities carried out in his name over the centuries would surely not look good on the CV of any peaceloving entity, just take war times, all sides praying to the same god for victory. Its a nonsense.

Window licker
7th Oct 2006, 00:37
I cant believe that in Britain in 2006 we are having this debait, muslims have been living in this country now in large numbers for about 40 years and they as a group have done absolutly nothing in that time to intergrate, they behave as forigne now as they did back then, if western women go to Pakistan they MUST wear the chador for example, and They only vist. It is time the muslim people who live in Britain should activly start trying to fit in, up to now it is we the general public of Britain who have been expected to change our ways in order to accomodate them, I say enough is enough, of couse they feel alienated, nobody likes you when you look down your nose at people, whoever you are.

It is time that they started to regard themselves as British first and Muslim Seccond.

Ontariotech
7th Oct 2006, 01:45
Blues.....

:D :D :D

:ok:

onetrack
7th Oct 2006, 02:21
The post about John Howard & Peter Costello's (Aussie PM and Treasurer) comments is 99.5% correct .. with the only problem, that a lack of paraphrasing and quotation leads a reader to believe, that the lower part of the quote, is part of what Howard and Costello actually said ..
The actual news media (accurately) reported comments, are ..
Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country, if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state, and its laws were made by parliament.
"If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you", he said on national television.
"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia: one, the Australian law; and another, the Islamic law; that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy .. and would prefer Sharia law, and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it .. perhaps, then, that's a better option", Costello said.
Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other country.
Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off".
"Basically, people who don't want to be Australians, and who don't want to live by Australian values, and understand them, well then, they can basically clear off", he said.
Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.
News Headline Quote:
IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It.
Howard Quote ..
"I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture.
Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians." (end of Howard quote) ..
Here is a full version of the Treasurers speech to the Sydney Institute .. on what it means to be Australian .. what it means when you immigrate to another country .. and what is expected of you, when you move to another country, to take up citizenship of that country ..
Note, in the six, key, 'bulleted' points, 2/3rds of the way down the speech .. the 4th one .. with particular reference to style of worship, and treatment of women ..
http://www.treasurer.gov.au/tsr/content/speeches/2006/004.asp
The three greatest problems afflicting the assimilation of Muslims into our secular, and relatively religiously-tolerant, Western society .. are ..
1. The Muslims over-riding belief, that all of a countrys laws are secondary to the laws of Mohammed .. if there is any conflict between a countrys law, and the laws of Islam .. they are told they must disobey that countrys laws, or offend Allah .. an unthinkable act to them ..
2. The total and utter control that the totally patriarchal-oriented Muslim religion, has over women. Women are mere chattels . .to be beaten at will, totally controlled, and excluded from many activities, that we in the Western world regard, as part of the normal, acceptable activities of our female members.
In most Muslim countries, women are totally excluded from decision making, positions of political or business power, and even simple things such as driving, indulging in sport, etc ..
3. The simple belief that Islam must become THE dominant ruling religion of any country, where Muslims have congregated .. all others are referred to as 'infidels', and Muslims are advised that infidels deserve only death, for their refusal to accept and worship Allah.
Until these concepts are wound back, in a major way .. there is little hope for long-term assimilation of most Muslims into Western society .. and the stage is set for an explosive civil war, some decades into the future .. when the clash of Eastern and Western cultures, will finally come to a head.
We only have to see the incredible violence and destruction in Iraq, between Sunni's and Shiites .. merely just opposing sects of Muslims .. to gain even a slight insight into what will eventually happen between Muslims in the West, and the 'infidel' residents of the particular country they have moved to ..
The London bombings are a particularly pointed insight into the minds of followers of Islam ..... how people .. who had been born and educated in Britain .. still carried with them, that instilled (inherited?) thought patterns .. that random killings of innocent Westerners, gave them glory, in the eyes of Allah. :ugh:

Superpilot
7th Oct 2006, 06:49
I don't know who is manipulating who in our relationship with the meeja (and I feel someone is distinctly yanking my strings), but I really am getting fed up with this relentless Muslim agenda. Every day its some new 'outrage', expression of anger, injustice, demand..... push, push push. I feel like I'm almost in a corner, and thats not a good place to force people. Bad things result. Who is it driving this agenda?

Yet another Jewish politician (hey I would've called him a Muslim if he was ;) ) raising another "Muslim Issue" quickly magnified under a false lens by the British media (largely owned by people who love to see Islam rot) to incense the British Public. So what's new? :hmm:

To prove that improving social stability is not the true agenda of this government consider the following. Alcohol and the drunky culture cost the tax payer £3bn a year. Fine, at least some of the lost money is regained through taxing and licensing those that sell and promote this shit way of life but what about the social effects of this? How much of a social detriment does a veiled women or even 10,000 veiled women cause compared to the hundreds of thousands of semi-naked drunken prats and harlots who roam the streets at very unsociable hours? Want to ban the veil for it’s ‘unsocial’ effects, then ban the most unsocial disease in the world. I bet that hit a nerve! Face it, Britain is sex and appearance obsessed. That’s why the veil is an issue and not the common tart.

all others are referred to as 'infidels', and Muslims are advised that infidels deserve only death, for their refusal to accept and worship Allah.


What horse shit. Try Googling "People of the book". Infidels in the Quran refers to the Pagans at war with the Muslims during approx 650-700AD. It does not refer to every non-Muslim. You ignorants really ought to learn about Islam from those in the know!

Now, will the dogs line up in an orderly fashion before attacking me. Thank you.

cabbages
7th Oct 2006, 07:08
Its been hours now since this story broke and yet we still have not seen mass demonstrations in Jakata, or even any Christian churches fire bombed in Islamabad. Not even a call for the execution of Jack Straw from UK based Al Muhajiroun.
For the sake of consistency cant we at least have rioting on the streets of Bradford

stickandrudderman
7th Oct 2006, 08:41
Personally, I think that religion is the root of all evil.
The notion that some all-embracing super-being is watching over our every move and ready to cast us into the black abyss at the slightest infringement of his (and i use a small "h" deliberately) ill-thought-out laws is frankly ludicrous.
The world would be a lot more peaceful if people just faced facts. You live, you die. End of story.
As for this Global warming rubbish........

G-CPTN
7th Oct 2006, 08:46
We are but ants.

ORAC
7th Oct 2006, 08:51
then ban the most unsocial disease in the world. I bet that hit a nerve! Face it, Britain is sex and appearance obsessed. Well if you don't like it, you can always leave for somewhere where they do ban alcohol and restrict those that behave in such immoral ways. I believe Iran has a good line in hanging 15 year old girls who behave in such a manner from mechanical diggers...

Jack Straw isn't Jewish by the way, neither are thepress, but saying they are as an attempted insult does make your own views obvious. Give me a nice honest harlot any day......
----------------------------------------------

I don not agree with Jack Straw's actions, I find them reprehensible, and done for his own advantage.

Whilst people can have their own views of the wearing of the veil, it was never made a major religious issue. Whilst many moslem women wear it, many do not. There was the case of the schoolgirl and the hijab where it was pushed as an issue, but that was a small minority group and not really the same issue.

If a campaign against women being forced to wear the veil had been started by a womens' or human rights group, it could have been backed by those that saw it as a rights and cultural issue.

Jack Straw has raised it as a politician which makes it a political issue. He is doing the classic trick of raising the subject and then trying to claim the middle ground, meaning those that his rivals must either choose the ground towards either extreme or be seen as his followers. A good trick, but one that almost forces others into taking up those opinions.

It also forces moslem women to take sides, even those who had no real views. You think thise will make it easier the next time he wants one to remove her veil to talk to him?

I could and can see times when the wearing of the veil should not be allowed. Exams, driving tests and other occasions when substition for cheating purposes is known to take place, ID cards etc. Most of those could have been agreed reasonably by discussion. All such discussions will now be seen through the cloud of prejudice.

In short, jack Straw has made an innocuous issue into a major issue for political gain. Whilst I can understand, I cannot respect him for it.

tony draper
7th Oct 2006, 09:26
We tread a rocky road here,next thing the Scots will demand the right to wear the clan tartan again, and full Highland dress.
:rolleyes:

ComJam
7th Oct 2006, 09:40
Well, frankly, as a Scot i'm offended by Morris Dancers, i think it's the bells..or it might be the sticks......... :}

But, more seriously........ I'm not allowed to wear "full Scottish national dress" in England, whereas certain religious types are still allowed to carry "ceremonial weapons", i'm not allowed to wear the Sgian Dubh (the small knife worn down the sock) as it's considered to be an offensive weapon.

colmac747
7th Oct 2006, 09:45
We tread a rocky road here,next thing the Scots will demand the right to wear the clan tartan again, and full Highland dress.
:rolleyes:


Pah!! Going through Stansted yesterday, the place was awash with tartan (ex-pats heading up here for today's footie game) - little Jonny Engerlunder looked bemused, but that's to be expected seeing as it's[England] an inferior race/country :E

El Grifo
7th Oct 2006, 09:45
Hey drapsey, wind us jocks up all you want. You have endless credit and we can take it.:ok:

We will never forget the spirit o' the jarrow lads and that spirit is something we have in common !

tony draper
7th Oct 2006, 09:53
As one keeps telling you folks one is half Jockistani,a Munro no less,so one is allowed to take the pee,Nephew intends to be married in full Highland dress next year and what is worse he expects the guest to be clad in a similar manner,one has told him to **** off, if he wishes fancy dress one shall attend dressed as a cowboy.
:uhoh:
See how well those Sgian Dubh do agin a SA Colt 44.40. :E

BellEndBob
7th Oct 2006, 10:13
What is really making my blood boil is not the issue of whether a veil is appropriate or not, but the hijacking of a topic by politicians worried about the next election. Noo Labour have at last realised that their Liberal, pro minority policies are backfiring and there is a new pretender to the crown on the block. Blair is also off and Straw wants promotion. He is seen as a champion of the Muslims so he needs to put some distance in between him and them if he wants a chance. So, he picks on this issue that will get him in the papers and be seen to be defending the British culture. It is also guaranteed not to bring the mad mullahs onto the streets. Look at his interviews, he has about as much conviction as the bint who says 'More reasons to shop at Morrisons' at my local store!
Society is past redemption in this country because the polticians are crap and we, the electorate, are fat, lazy and spoilt. :ugh:

Maybe a dose of hard line Islam is exactly what we need........:E

El Grifo
7th Oct 2006, 10:14
During the 14th century the Clan Munro played an important part during the Wars of Scottish Independence firstly alongside William Wallace in battles such as the Battle of Stirling Bridge (1297), Battle of Falkirk (1298) and later alongside King Robert the Bruce at the Battle of Bannockburn (1314) and the Battle of Halidon Hill (1333). Clan Chief Robert Munro and his son George Munro held command under Robert the Bruce at the Battle of Bannockburn 1314.

Now you are showing off Draper :8


Sorrrrry - - -Thread drift

Superpilot
7th Oct 2006, 10:20
Well if you don't like it, you can always leave for somewhere where they do ban alcohol and restrict those that behave in such immoral ways.

No, I acknowledge this way of life and accept it as cultural difference. Unlike certain Nazi's who post on here.

tony draper
7th Oct 2006, 10:22
Its well past the time it was brought out into the open, for way to long anybody who had anything negative to say or raise doubts about this multi culturism bollix was shouted down,and not by the politicians but by our own home grown huggy fluffs.
I keep saying this, there are 59 million of us,its time we had our say,seemingly in this country for the last twenty years the smaller the minority you belong to the louder the voice you are allowed.
:suspect:

Wyler
7th Oct 2006, 10:25
Mr Draper.

So long as over 50% of the voting public sit on their fat arses watching Big Brother instead of voting and/or hassling their MP, nothing will change. We are our own worst ememies.

tony draper
7th Oct 2006, 10:34
Couldn't agree more Mr W,and what is worse if the fluffist have their way on Proportinal Representation we could end up a small Islamic Party holding the balance of power in Westminster,and wouldn't they just love that.
:uhoh:

XXTSGR
7th Oct 2006, 10:38
Superpilot - excellent post. It's high time some of the lies that get peddled here about Islam were revealed as such. As for Orac's stupid suggestion that people who don't like the "binge, vomit, show off everything you've got" culture should leave, as people here are very keen to tell us, this is a free country. If Muslim women want to wear the veil, why shouldn't they? As an MP representing a constituency that has a relatively high Muslim membership, Jack Straw needs to recognise that it doesn't matter if he feels "uncomfortable" in his constituency surgery. He is a servant of the people, not the other way around. He needs to be sure that they feel comfortable. Does he want to be re-elected or not? He has alleged that all women whom he has asked to remove the veil have agreed to do so willingly. Not so. One woman says she was "ordered" to remove it, and refused.

Shannon volmet
7th Oct 2006, 10:54
Has anyone noticed that 'veil' is an anagram of the two words vile and evil ? Just an observation......

Grandpa
7th Oct 2006, 11:11
..............about "good against evil" war.

Crusade spirit isn't dead!

onetrack
7th Oct 2006, 11:15
No, I acknowledge this way of life and accept it as cultural difference. Unlike certain Nazi's who post on here.
The only cultural Nazis around .. are the Muslims who constantly whine that they are an opressed minority .. and who demand that the laws and culture of the country they have chosen to move to (generally because they can no longer live in their country of origin, due to its culture of intolerance) .. be changed, substantially .. to accomodate their over-ruling, religious beliefs .. :suspect:

Re the infidels part .. I can't see any horse shit whatsoever .. where in Christianity, is there the equivalent of jihad?? .. i.e. .. launching war upon anyone who is disrespectful to Allah?? .. :suspect:

In case Superpilot has been living in a cave recently .. what about the riots, embassy burning, boycotts of Scandinavian products, threats to kill media people .. all over a cartoon??? ..
What about the death sentence on Salman Rushdie??? .. something that hung over his head for a decade or more .. purely because he put something in print about Islam and Mohammed, that was regarded as offensive?? ..
How many times a week, do Mullahs pray to Allah for "destruction of infidels" in their Mosques .. ?? .. oh, you've never heard that said?? .. I guess you do live in a cave, then .. :oh:

As it is obvious your memory has failed you recently .. here are the precise instructions to Islamic adherents, that MUST be followed, to please Allah ..

http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

As to Islamic aims in the West .. what more guide could we need, than this following fatwa?? .. that Muslims effectively set up a society apart, amongst the Western Infidels .. so that they cannot become 'tainted' by them?? .. and so that the over-riding law of Sharia, remains forever in place??? ..... :suspect:

LONDON, July 11 (IslamOnline.net) - The European Council for Fatwa and Research (ECFR) wrapped up its 13th session late Saturday, July 10, with a call to Muslims living in the West to abide by the laws in their respective countries and respects the rights of non-Muslims.
At the conclusion of their annual meeting, held in the London City Hall on July 7-10 at an invitation from London Mayor Ken Livingstone, Muslim scholars made several important recommendations, mostly directed to Muslim communities in the West.
"While abiding by the host country’s laws, Muslims are also asked to form Islamic bodies to organize their personal issues in accordance with Shari`ah," said the ECFR.
Most importantly, the body recommended that Muslims in the West to spare no legal or peaceful efforts to get the country where they live to recognize Islam as a religion and Muslims as a community that should enjoy full rights.
The recommendations also asked Muslims in the West to respect the lives and properties of non-Muslims.
"Muslims in the West should observe all duties and provide a good example for others in words, actions and behaviours," said the ECFR.
It also encouraged Muslims in the West to "adopt positive and innovative attitudes on all levels."
"They should do their utmost to raise the new generations - boys and girls - in a modern Islamic manner through establishing schools, educational and entertainment centres to protect them from deviation.

El Grifo
7th Oct 2006, 11:17
If Muslim women want to wear the veil, why shouldn't they? As an MP representing a constituency that has a relatively high Muslim membership, Jack Straw needs to recognise that it doesn't matter if he feels "uncomfortable" in his constituency surgery. He is a servant of the people, not the other way around. He needs to be sure that they feel comfortable. Does he want to be re-elected or not? He has alleged that all women whom he has asked to remove the veil have agreed to do so willingly. Not so. One woman says she was "ordered" to remove it, and refused.

Should this freedom also be afforded to those "westerners" who chose to travel, work or worship in Isamic countries do you think.

What do you say XXTSGR ?

'Chuffer' Dandridge
7th Oct 2006, 11:19
They're not really women, just mustachiod males doing a bit of Islamic crossdressing:E

Foss
7th Oct 2006, 12:08
Good interview on radio 4, paraphrased
'So you are wearing a veil now'
'Yes, because of my religious beliefs'
'But people say they can't communicate because they can't see your face'
'Well, I'm on the radio and they can't see my face and they are phoning in'
Smart.

If anyone is really upset about veils, move to Northern Ireland, I've never seen one here, only balaclavas.
If someone wants to voluntarily wear a bed spread, let them.
But it is a bit spooky.
Fos

BOFH
7th Oct 2006, 13:14
Foss
Interesting point you have made about the radio programme, but how, then, do you explain why we use emoticons when we write to one another? It's to clarify whether you are to perceive, say, what I just wrote, as being remonstrative :mad: , or tongue-in-cheek :E . As you cannot perceive my body language or expressions from where you are sitting (hopefully), it's an aid for you to determine the spirit in which I replied to your post.

I've just acquired an understudy from China. Sharp as a tack, but his English will require some work. We had lunch the other day, and he ordered precisely what I was having.
"You really don't need to have the same as me - please order what you like"
"I would like to fit in"

I found that rather touching.

BOFH

XXTSGR
7th Oct 2006, 13:19
onetrack, you say (among other idiocies):-where in Christianity, is there the equivalent of jihad?? .. i.e. .. launching war upon anyone who is disrespectful to Allah??Sorry, but that is not what jihad is. The website whose url you posted is a mistranslated collection of unconnected, irrelevant pieces designed merely to confuse anyone who doesn't know the context of the quotes, and does NOT mean what you would like people to infer.

Furthermore, how on earth do you conclude that the press item you quote impliesthat Muslims effectively set up a society apart, amongst the Western Infidels?????

You don't understand Islam, you know nothing about it. Please desist from spreading ill-informed hatred and lies.

El Grifo - yes, it should, provided locals are not scandalised or offended. If you can honestly tell me that you find women wearing the niqab offensive to your morals, then I will be most surprised. However, very few Islamic countries have any dress restriction on non-Muslims and, where they exist, are nothing to do with religion and everything to do with local culture. Did you see my earlier post addressed to you regarding dress restrictions in Greece?

PS BOFH - good point about the emoticons. However, on the radio you can hear the tone of voice which you cannot on here. But that does still not explain why people who accept there might be slightly more difficulty in making themselves understood should be compelled to dress in a particular manner. Since when was it illegal to wear anything other than "western" dress? Or did I miss some bit of sartorial legislation?

G-CPTN
7th Oct 2006, 13:28
Foss
Interesting point you have made about the radio programme, but how, then, do you explain why we use emoticons when we write to one another? It's to clarify whether you are to perceive, say, what I just wrote, as being remonstrative :mad: , or tongue-in-cheek :E . As you cannot perceive my body language or expressions from where you are sitting (hopefully), it's an aid for you to determine the spirit in which I replied to your post.
There's TONE of voice, and timing.
I've just acquired an understudy from China. Sharp as a tack, but his English will require some work. We had lunch the other day, and he ordered precisely what I was having.
"You really don't need to have the same as me - please order what you like"
"I would like to fit in"
I found that rather touching.
BOFH
Probably thought that what you'd ordered was the dog's bollox . . .

om15
7th Oct 2006, 13:40
I think that the wearing of full face veil clothing is a fashon statement that should be warmly encouraged to many members of the fairer sex, especially to some of the ladies that drink in my local in North Dorset.
Cheers,
om15.

onetrack
7th Oct 2006, 13:49
You don't understand Islam, you know nothing about it. Please desist from spreading ill-informed hatred and lies.


I do know plenty about it .. and your smug, dismissive comment, is typical of the response to hard questions about Islamic aims, lack of tolerance, and treatment of women under your religion ..

I am not spreading hatred and lies .. I am bringing some home truths to light about the Islamic religion, as it exists in both Eastern and Western countries.
Notice the curious wording of the fatwa I quoted .. "host countries" .. does this sound like a people who move to a country, embrace that countrys culture, and assimilate??
Not according to my interpretation .. Islam is determined to set itself apart, as a separate culture within our Western societies, and eventually dominate our "weak'' and "deviant" Western culture (Islamic quotes) ..

G-CPTN
7th Oct 2006, 14:01
There is only ONE true religion. On the day of judgement we will all discover whether we've been backing the right horse.
Of course, if there IS a day of judgement, that is.
God only knows.

Blacksheep
7th Oct 2006, 14:59
That European Council for Fatwa and Research (ECFR) would be better calling a spade a spade and deal directly with the problem of the deviationist preachers, who use their religion for political purposes to deliberately foment trouble within the "host nations." Perhaps I may point them in the right direction...?

I came across this quotation in a book on the Bounty mutiny concerning the descendents of the mutineers on Pitcairn. It refers to a man named Nobb who claimed (falsely) to have been sent by the Church to "save" the inhabitants from themselves. In the circumstances I find it very apt.

"...for a man is no more religious from canting perverted scriptural phrases, than a bat is a parrot because it can fly."
(United Services Journal, 1831, Vol 111: p313.)

XXTSGR
7th Oct 2006, 15:09
onetrack, once again you demonstrate how little you know about Islam. You think you know lots, and every time you post you demonstrate your ignorance, paranoia and prejudice. If you knew anything about it you would not mis-represent the meaning of jihad unless you intented deliberately to mislead... Which is it? Are you ignorant or a liar?

Poor treatment of women is nothing to do with Islam and everything to do with pre-Islamic culture in some countries that now happen to be Islamic. Like so many others here you can't tell the difference between the religion and some cultures, you make assumptions without knowing anything at all. You will have to take my word for it that the vast majority of women among Muslims are treated far, far better than their "western" counterparts, with far more respect and kindness. Sure, some aren't. Same as in any culture. But maltreatment of women is most definitely NOTHING to do with Islam.

Um... lifting...
7th Oct 2006, 15:40
You will have to take my word for it that the vast majority of women among Muslims are treated far, far better than their "western" counterparts, with far more respect and kindness.

Wow... and I thought you said before that you couldn't speak for a majority of Muslims because they are of so many diverse cultures... silly me. I'd have thought you couldn't have it both ways. I've seen you bounce back and forth so many times in the last several months that you'll forgive me if I don't take your word for anything.
Whether you're idealistic, truthful, deceptive, or whatever doesn't matter a bent penny to me. The fact is, Islam is perceived as being the driving force behind much of the terror in the world today. Argue against that 'til you're blue in the face, argue that women are treated well in Islam (though how you think you can accurately make such a sweeping statement about that or about treatment of women in the West I can't even imagine... the West, well, there's rather a lot of it).
The perception of the West (since we're making sweeping statements) is that none of that is true. My perception isn't important, whether it be accurate or not (it happens to be somewhere in the middle). Islam and the non-Islamic world are on a collision course, make no error. I don't have the solution to that, but denial of it and telling people that they don't understand Islam (when you appear to be utterly unwilling or perhaps incapable of explaining any aspect of your own self-stated faith) is thoroughly pointless. Explaining away the documented fact that Muslims in secular societies insist upon setting themselves apart from the values of those societies as something that "well, that's not Islam..." is naive denial at best and complicit at worst. If those who dress in traditional dress that rightly or wrongly is identified with Islam and which hides one's identity (and on occasion gender) didn't on occasion detonate themselves or violate laws or feel a need to legally drive an automobile or otherwise be part of a society where it is customary for one to be identified visually, I'd say wear whatever you want, but in secular societies, your right to privacy stops where the greater need for safety or security or legal behavior starts.
I can see the anti-Christian bits starting now. Save your breath. Mormons reel in their extremists, most other Christian sects do the same on those occasions when someone behaves like a loon and says it's because his Lord & Savior told him to.

Is this the Q'uran in original Arabic? No, it's not, but it's a sight more than you've done.
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jihad
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rules_of_war_in_Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islam_as_a_political_movement
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Talk:Political_aspects_of_Islam
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wikipedia:USPOV
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Islamic_extremist_terrorism

onetrack
7th Oct 2006, 16:17
XXTSGR - I know precisely how your women are treated .. like my Australian lady friend, who toured Pakistan .. and despite wearing a hijab, as courtesy to local edicts .. made the simple mistake of being seen in public .. alone .. whereupon she was spat on, as a common whore ..:(

If you are trying to convince me, this is a "cultural thing" unrelated to Muslim beliefs .. you are deluded, and trying to delude me, as well .. it is ALL about warped Muslim attitudes, bred into Muslim men from birth .. that a female family member can be knifed to death if seen alone with a male .. that a 16 yr old sexually abused girl, can be hung .. with special relish, by a "religious leader", for her "sharp tongue" .. :(

http://www.iranfocus.com/modules/news/article.php?storyid=137

The bottom line will be .. whose side will you be on?? .. when Ahmedinejad and Hezbollah collabarate to use nuclear weapons on Israel .. seeing as both are dedicated to the total annihilation of one nation???? .. and who regularly repeat, that they will never recant from carrying that act out?? ..

And you have the hide to state, that there are religious "NAZI's", on here??? .. :mad:

El Grifo
7th Oct 2006, 16:29
very few Islamic countries have any dress restriction on non-Muslims and, where they exist, are nothing to do with religion and everything to do with local culture.

XXTSGR, Who exactly are you trying to fool, yourself or me.
Dress restrictions for westerners visiting or working muslim countries DO exist for whatever reason.

A quick google will educate you to the reality. Stop trying to fool yourself.

Wake up and look around you. This is real

Here are couple of random accredited googles to start you off.

Iran

When travelling within Iran women should wear loose fitting cotton trousers and loose fitting long sleeved shirts with a headscarf at hand. This clothing is very cool and comfortable and does not cause offence.
Gina, Wellington, New Zealand


When visiting Iran, women must wear the hijab (headscarf and modest dress) in public at all times. At a hotel in Tehran a sign in the lobby of the Homa hotel reads as follows: "In the name of God, respectful ladies are asked to observe the Islamic hijab and not to use cosmetics in public. Please use a scarf to cover your hair and neck. A long loose dress and dark stockings (or trousers). We wish you a nice trip."

The hijab warning shouldn't come as a surprise to visitors. To obtain a tourist visa from the Iranian embassy in Ottawa, Canadian women must first submit two photographs showing them wearing a headscarf. And they must be wearing it when the plane touches down in Tehran.
Martin Regg Cohn, chief of the Toronto Star's Middle East bureau

airyana
7th Oct 2006, 16:33
ignorant: lacking knowledge or awareness in general.

i found a lot of the posts in this thread to be ignorant.

an analogy, probably by a child, but very good, when someone drives a

car recklessly, then why the hell blame the car ? well, maybe a rude child.

you'll say well the "car" islam must have something to do with it . . .

it doesnt all these terrorist happen to be from poor developing countries.

brain washing someone who cant feed his children is apparently easy.

so, why are these countries, that happen to be islamic countries,

struggling ?

because not so long ago they were occupied by other european countries.

and why is that ?

beacause of the transition between the islamic "empire" and what we are

left with today. a culture that is often undermined, it taught the world a

lot.

so what am i saying here ? make sure you know what you are talking

about before you form an opinion or point of view, and take my word for it

tv is not the best place for finding the truth.

should you argue other countries that have the same problems dont

export terrorists, i think what is happening to the palestinians and the

massacres shown on arab tv channels daily if not every hour are the

reason. i didnt post this thread to start an argument so i wont be replying

to comments on it, if you have something to say i suggest you find

something

to read on the topic, a well documented source preferably because theres

all kinds of sh!te out there, i guess you'll change your mind .. .. ..

XXTSGR
7th Oct 2006, 17:07
airyana - well said.

Um.... you saidIslam is perceived as being the driving force behind much of the terror in the world todayWhetheror not Islam is seen that way is irrelevant - it's not true. SOME MUSLIMS are behind a lot of terror. It's nothing to do with Islam. Their behaviour is not sanctioned, approved of, required or in any way condoned by Islam, the Qu'ran, the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) or "normal" Muslims anywhere.telling people that they don't understand Islam (when you appear to be utterly unwilling or perhaps incapable of explaining any aspect of your own self-stated faith) is thoroughly pointless. Explaining away the documented fact that Muslims in secular societies insist upon setting themselves apart from the values of those societies as something that "well, that's not Islam..." is naive denial at best and complicit at worst.I've explained all sorts of things about Islam here. Perhaps you are among those who don't want to hear the truth, and prefer their own blinkered bigotry and prejudice? Incidentally, there are a lot of people of all sorts of religions in secular societies who set themselves apart from the values of that society. And what exactly is wrong with that? DO you believe in some sort of religious or philosophical apartheid?but in secular societies, your right to privacy stops where the greater need for safety or security or legal behavior starts.And exactly what safety, security or legal problems are caused by a constituent in Jack Straw's surgery wearing the niqab?Mormons reel in their extremists, most other Christian sects do the same on those occasions when someone behaves like a loon and says it's because his Lord & Savior told him to.And who reels in people like Branch Davidians?

onetrack... you saidIf you are trying to convince me, this is a "cultural thing" unrelated to Muslim beliefs .. you are deluded, and trying to delude me, as well .. it is ALL about warped Muslim attitudes, bred into Muslim men from birthAll Muslim men? Or might that be just a little bit of a generalisation? Sorry, but what you say is wrongs from beginning to end. It is ALL cultural and nothing whatsoever to do with religion - unless you think that, say, all Muslims in the USA, no matter how long many generations their families have been there, think that way...? And how exactly do you defend your lies about the meaning of jihad?

El Grifo... you sayDress restrictions for westerners visiting or working muslim countries DO exist for whatever reason.I didn't say they didn't. Stop arguing with what I didn't say and come up with some response to what I DID say - for example about dress restrictions in a church in Greece? Furthermore, stop using only one or two Islamic countries and extrapolating from there to ALL Muslims in ALL countries. It doesn't work.

'Chuffer' Dandridge
7th Oct 2006, 17:08
What is it with the religious type of beard that Muslims have?

And the strange homberg type of hat that Orthodox Jews wear.....?

Religious fashions.......Discuss

I reckon we should set up a new religion, where everyone has to wear a red plastic nose and pray to the god, Terry Wogan!:ok:

I've said it before, but religion is weird!:E

brickhistory
7th Oct 2006, 17:15
And who reels in people like Branch Davidians?


I'd say it was the ATF and FBI, quite spectacularly, if not efficiently.


And I don't recall any of the Branch'ers wearing the latest in C4 outerwear.

El Grifo
7th Oct 2006, 17:41
XXSTGR says :- However, very few Islamic countries have any dress restriction on non-Muslims and, where they exist, are nothing to do with religion and everything to do with local culture.

The I say Dress restrictions for westerners visiting or working muslim countries DO exist for whatever reason.

Then XXSTGR comes back with I didn't say they didn't. Stop arguing with what I didn't say and come up with some response to what I DID say


I think that is referred to as splitting hairs.

The bigger picture is the bigger picture, lets look at that and perhaps forget places like Greece which poses no threat.

XXTSGR
7th Oct 2006, 18:03
Ohhhh - I see now! :} :ok:

If I say something like "vey few" and you base an argument on my having said "none" then it's splitting hairs. So you can argue with me based on something I haven't said and would not say. Hmmm! :suspect:

And when I point out that dress restrictions are not the prerogative of Muslim countries, you deem that for it to have to matter, there has to be a threat???? :confused: Can you tell me what threat is posed to Jack Straw sitting in his constituency surgery by woman wearing niqab that is not posed by a woman without it?

Davaar
7th Oct 2006, 18:12
Ohhhh - I see now! :} :ok:

Can you tell me what threat is posed to Jack Straw sitting in his constituency surgery by woman wearing niqab that is not posed by a woman without it?

For one thing, she is there, presumably, for a purpose, and we hope not for a trivial purpose. That is she wants to tell him something, or have him tell her something. She may want him to do something for her. All of this may be wholly legitimate.

But who is he talking to? The Lone Rangerina? The Woman in the Iron Mask? The Lady High Executioner?

chiglet
7th Oct 2006, 18:17
On a "personal" note....i.e. It happened to ME.
The ex went to visit the wholesaler for whom her friend worked for, if you follow. Her friend was treated like sh!t as an employee..asn when the ex arrived so was she. As she was upset,she 'phoned me with her "problem" [we were still married at the time]. I arrived to see the "gentleman" concerned to have "words",but I arrived in my scruff. Before I could say owt, the ex said "Here's my husband" and chummy said "And what does he do?"
"He's ATC"
"Ah sorry madam, He is a professional gentleman, feel free to browse"
And the silly cow did :ugh:
Still treated her mate [and ALL the females in the family the same though. :{
watp,iktch

Um... lifting...
7th Oct 2006, 18:17
airyana - well said.

Um.... you saidWhetheror not Islam is seen that way is irrelevant - it's not true. SOME MUSLIMS are behind a lot of terror. It's nothing to do with Islam. Their behaviour is not sanctioned, approved of, required or in any way condoned by Islam, the Qu'ran, the teachings of the Prophet (pbuh) or "normal" Muslims anywhere.I've explained all sorts of things about Islam here. Perhaps you are among those who don't want to hear the truth, and prefer their own blinkered bigotry and prejudice? Incidentally, there are a lot of people of all sorts of religions in secular societies who set themselves apart from the values of that society. And what exactly is wrong with that? DO you believe in some sort of religious or philosophical apartheid?And exactly what safety, security or legal problems are caused by a constituent in Jack Straw's surgery wearing the niqab?And who reels in people like Branch Davidians?



I would say that the Branch Davidians is a fairly spectacular extrapolation, so you should probably stop telling people not to extrapolate when you make global statements about the 'vast majority of...' when you haven't a clue what you're talking about. At least I've bothered to do a smattering of research about my topic and not write solely from my own perspective.

It's totally, completely, to the very fibre of the idea, relevant. Perception is reality, whether you like it or not. If you scream 'FIRE' in a crowded theatre, are the people injured in the melee any less trampled because there wasn't actually a fire and you were merely behaving irresponsibly? You missed my entire point... there's a surprise. If moderate Islam wants to be perceived as what you insist that it is, moderate Islam MUST reclaim what moderate Islam claims has been hijacked by extremist Islam. It's the responsibility OF moderate Islam (whether moderate Islam caused it or not) and moderate Muslims ignore this at their peril. I'm not making a threat, nor have I yet, nor will I... these are merely observations. Are you so caught up in believing that everybody here wants to victimize you that you really don't understand this?

I'm fully happy to hear whatever information you have, I'm not blinkered, or shuttered, nor am I particularly prejudiced. And, no, I DON'T believe in a philosophical or religious apartheid (which by the way is an incorrect use of the term and would be extremely offensive to some South Africans just as your occasional use of "Nazi" is also inappropriate and incorrect and inflammatory), but Muslim theocracies do. In fact, I was arguing anything BUT that.

I don't think Jack Straw was correct or that there was a danger posed by this particular person, and never said I did, but it is an accepted courtesy in Western nations for the immigrant to accommodate to societal norms, not the other way 'round.

XXTSGR
7th Oct 2006, 18:29
But who is he talking to? The Lone Rangerina? The Woman in the Iron Mask? The Lady High Executioner?And if he can see her face, does it make any difference? Is he likely to know all of his constituents? If they go around in the street outside with a veil, it hardly helps him to see her face when she steps inside.

The issue of the veil is personal choice. It is not (as I read the Qu'ran) a religious requirement as such, but is a cultural interpretation of the Qu'ran's insistence upon modesty in dress. It's not an interpretation I agree with, but I will defend the right of people who choose to wear the veil to continue to do so. As is said many times, this is a free country. The day that the sartorial or cultural Nazis in this country insist that everyone has to wear the same will be the day I leave.

El Grifo
7th Oct 2006, 18:33
If we are playing silly buggers XXSTGR then I will happily play.

Can you tell me what threat is posed to Jack Straw sitting in his constituency surgery by woman wearing niqab that is not posed by a woman without it?


Can YOU tell me what threat is posed to a muslim in a muslim country, by a woman wearing a mini skirt and halter top :ugh:

XXTSGR
7th Oct 2006, 18:36
El Grifo, it was you who raised the issue of a threat in stating your reason for Greece not being relevant to the argument. I never said that "threat" had anything to do with it at all, but was merely pointing out your own red herring. It's time to stop arguing based on what I didn't say, and instead base it on what I DO say. Or is that too difficult?

AcroChik
7th Oct 2006, 18:37
"The day that the sartorial or cultural Nazis in this country insist that everyone has to wear the same will be the day I leave."

Help us understand, XXTSGR, what country would you go to?

El Grifo
7th Oct 2006, 18:43
Islam has become a threat and those moderates who fail to denounce the nasty side of islam are also a threat, so there is "threat" sorted out.

Meanwhile back at the reality camp.

Can YOU tell me what threat is posed to a muslim in a muslim country, by a woman wearing a mini skirt and halter top :*

XXTSGR
7th Oct 2006, 18:53
No threat at all, El Grifo. I say again - it was you raised the issue of "threat". What she would do, however, is offend many sensibilities. Do you get it? It gives offence. What offence is caused to Jack Straw by a woman wearing a veil?

lexxity
7th Oct 2006, 19:06
I think Mr Straw is offended by his constituents continuing to not integrate themselves within the country in which they live.

Note - I do not say "chosen to live" because it is more often the case that it was their parents or even grandparents who chose to this country. From my experience the newer the immigrant the more they want to be a part of this country and to fit in and be a productive member of our society.

G-CPTN
7th Oct 2006, 19:12
I believe it is the second or third generation when reaction sets in.
http://www.harvardmagazine.com/on-line/090605.html

El Grifo
7th Oct 2006, 19:16
the mincing of words continues.

Make no mistake. Any woman wearing what is considered to be acceptable fashion garments in the modern world would do a shedload more than "offend sensibilities" in a muslim country.

You know that, I know that and and the majority of women who have tried it know it also.

In order to avoid hair splitting replies, let me say that in certain tourist resorts like the Maldives for example it would be tolerated.

Did you actually read the guidlines from Martin Regg Cohn for female visitors to Iran.

What offence is caused to Jack Straw by a woman wearing a veil

Jack straw is a legally elected representative of the British people.

He, like millions of others are aware of the increasing and deliberate gulf growing between muslim and non muslim people in the country.

He, like millions of others can see that if things cannot be changed in the near future then there is some serious trouble in the wind for muslims when the backlashes begin, as they undoubtedly will with the onset of more terror attacks

He, like millions of others realises that the word "Islam" has now became synonymous with the word "terror". The moderates have allowed the lunatics to set the agenda and hijack the corporate face of "Islam"

The moderates fault, not ours.

So you see there is a valid and perceived threat which Jack Straw is juggling with. I am sure that expressions like his will become sharper and more directed as the gradual deepening of the problem takes place.

PS stop treating me like a kid with your sanctimonous, "holier that thou":8 attitude. Sure as hell I get it, - - - - but do you :yuk:

Davaar
7th Oct 2006, 19:33
1.And if he can see her face, does it make any difference?

2. As is said many times, this is a free country.

3. The day that the sartorial or cultural Nazis in this country insist

4. that everyone has to wear the same will be the day I leave.

1. Yes it does, a great deal of difference. In my own trade there are transactions the law forbids me to engage in unless I know the client personally and swear an affidavit to that effect. It is not enough that he or she brings "two items of photo ID", as the mantra has it.

2. Used to be.

3. I have never seen any Nazis in operation, but I know people who lived where the Nazis ran the country. It was unpleasant there at the time for unpopular minorities. Knowing how inflammatory such language can be I avoid it. What you do is up to you.

4. Neat sophistry, but it will not wash. I am not aware of any insistence that everyone wear the same. That is far from saying that some may dress to conceal identity. I do believe you are well aware of that.

Capt. Queeg
7th Oct 2006, 20:34
Is George Galloway the representative "face" of political correctness in the UK? If not is he at least an acceptable scapegoat in this case?

If not leading the push, he seems to be one of the most vocal in calling for Straw's resignation over these veil comments.

Finally someone you can point the finger at when people ask who let things get this bad....... who listens to these idiots???

tony draper
7th Oct 2006, 21:24
I don't know any thinking person who doesn't despise political correctness,but some buggah is sure endlessly pushing it,not a week passes without another example of that particular lunacy surfacing from under its rock.
The vast majority of us have no say now, its the small groups with a big mouths that hold sway.
:suspect:

colmac747
7th Oct 2006, 23:25
Where i come from, if you cover your face then you're hiding something:hmm:

Ontariotech
8th Oct 2006, 00:02
Like I said before....

Take of your shoes in my house. I wouldn't wear them in yours.

It's a little sad that this thread has turned into the Muslim vs West routine,
when all were talking about is respect for one another. Or the lack of it from a few women in the UK who choose.....CHOOSE to go against the grain, and make life difficult for the rest of us. Jack Straw has the right, as do I to ask you to remove your veil, if you wear it against my wishes, it just shows you are wanting to be different. You want to be disrespectful. You want to cry for equality, but the first chance you get, you CHOOSE to be different.

I don't get it.

Al Fakhem
8th Oct 2006, 07:26
Ok, folks, time to bring some sanity and facts into the debate.

Fact 1: Nowhere in the Holy Quran does it say that women have to wear a veil.

Fact 2: No leading Islamic scholar confirms that women must wear a veil as a result of the teachings of the Quran.

Fact 3: It is religious Islamic zealots who force women to wear veils.

Fact 4: Even countries with Muslim as the dominant religion ban or restrict the wearing of veils (Tunisia, Turkey)

Fact 5: Western women visiting, for instance, Iran or Saudi Arabia are forced to follow local dress norms. So why is it considered "offensive" to ask women visiting Western countries to follow the local norms there?

Mac the Knife
8th Oct 2006, 08:03
If Moslems want to be a part of the modern world then they will just have to be a bit less sensitive and a bit more accommodating of Western values.

All this talk about "offending sensibilities", goodness me - plenty of things in this world offend my sensibilities, but I recognise that most of then involve other people's freedoms as well as my own and mind my own business.

Bringing up Greece is silly, a light headscarf is all that is needed going into a Greek Orthodox church and you can take it off when you leave - it is nothing like trotting around in a tent with eye-holes.

Personally I feel that wearing the full McCoy bespeaks a "sensitivity" so extreme as to be pathological.

What offends in the West is the implied and real contempt for our society that all this wandering around in desert robes states. I do not like Moslems looking at my wife and daughters who are wearing perfectly normal Western clothes in the West and their eyes saying "Whore!" - this profoundly insults me and my family and I won't have it.

If they're that offended then they can leave.

slim_slag
8th Oct 2006, 10:29
Was once stopped by a constable in uniform on Tower Bridge Road who objected to me wearing only a pair of boxer shorts. Apparently he felt it offended people. Why should that be, it's ok to wear shorts on a beach, why not on a busy road with people shopping? Surely as long as I am covering my naughty bits I have the right to do anything I like?

Well, it doesn't work that way and the constable was right to tell me off. Some clothes might be appropriate to wear in the home or a place of religion, but they might not be right to wear on a busy street. These people need to realise that Europe is a christian place (and that is christian with a small c, we don't need big I Islam or big C christianity either) and we all need to respect that when out and about.

eastern wiseguy
8th Oct 2006, 10:46
If Moslems want to be a part of the modern world then they will just have to be a bit less sensitive and a bit more accommodating of Western values.

Surely there's the rub....do they see the need to be part of the modern world or are they more comfortable living in the "14th Century" with all it's attendant attitudes.

El Grifo
8th Oct 2006, 12:15
Interestingly, the Amish communities in the US are set on retaining values of a bygone age and they do it with great dignity and aplomb.

They keep themselves to themselves and effectivly shun outside interference.
They make little demands on the state by way of welfare benefits etc and generally get on with life in a style that goes back centuries.

The not so subtle difference between UK muslims and they, is that they are not trying to convert anyone, they do not have preachers spouting vitriol against the lifestyle of their "host" country and neither do they have aspirations to take over the country as a whole and impose an altogether different style of law.

We must wake up to the actual aims of the muslim community in the UK by question them at every turn, otherwise I fear we shall sleepwalk into an irreversible path of endless conflict.

I think they in turn, should try to calm peoples fears by explaining more often
publically their hopes and aspirations and also toning down their extreme mode of dress in an attempt to appear to be assimilating.

I personally beleive they will never do this due to the fact that assimilation is simply not on ther agenda.

Capt. Queeg
8th Oct 2006, 12:30
Mo-Ab Al Rokn of the ***** University reckons "The majority of moslem scholars are of the opinion that covering the face is not a (religious) must."

Of course it's nothing to do with religion. Having lived amongst them, it's fairly obvious the men insist their women wear the veil or burka so they can't be ogled by other men.

No one trusts anyone else in many of these parts of the world and that distrust extends to their women too. Thus, cover them up with a bag on their heads and worry less that another man will covet his property, and possibly even convince it to leave him for the other guy.

Very insecure, your middle easterner is. And of course, the man and the religion are inseparable.


Having been brain-washed from birth to believe they should cover their shameful faces, these bints are not easily convinced otherwise.

Davaar
8th Oct 2006, 13:14
............do they see the need to be part of the modern world or are they more comfortable living in the "14th Century" with all it's attendant attitudes.

The answers to that question are clearly No, they do not see a need to be part of the modern world; Yes they are more comfortable living in the 14th century. Do you need me to tell you that?

Whose fault is it that we have the situation? Recall the poster from Australia who was quite clear about it all: The immigrant would conform to our norms, ran his ill-considered opinion, or we would send him back. When I suggested the immigrant might well not want to go, and in fact refuse to go, and what then?, I was much dumped upon. How soon we forget.

Until a very short time ago, to write any comment in these pages against "multiculturalism" was to invite the epithets "racist", "Nazi", "bigot", and others of that class.

What we now have is exactly the "multiculturalism" that so warmly infused the feelings of the enlightened.

Someone writes above that Europe is christian. Really? It was, certainly, but great changes have taken place. Before all this brou-ha-ha about immigration began, some forty years ago in fact, the topic of England's Christianity was addressed by the late Lord Devlin in "The Enforcement of Morals", a short but thought-provoking series of lectures by a great legal mind.

Much, he observed, perhaps most, of the law that made England Christian had been repealed or fallen into desuetude oiver the past hundred years. That left a vacuum of "reason" for "morals- or religion-based law", and replaced it with nothing. We see this all around.

The Wolfenden commission, for example, recommended that the practices of homosexuality be decriminalised. Many agreed with that. I tend to agree with it. Now, however, unless we enthusiastically promote the practices of homosexuality, which I do not, we are "bigots". The word used, quite wrongly, is "homophobes".

Write here any defence of Christianity, and the responsive mockery is immediate, usually at the kindergarten literalist level of the world's being 6,000 years old or not, or who ate what and why in the Garden of Eden, or No, you are not going to a harp-tuned Heaven when you die. Try that defence, and many will attack you, few support you.

Poster A who rarely appears in Jet Blast save on this topic will for page after page of attack draw for rebuttal on the rich wells of Google, and Poster B who may actually on other topics have read a book will on this topic rely on the hostile review of A who has not read the book that has been quoted.

Religion is a matter of immense complexity, permeating all aspects of humanity's daily living, from architecture to the structure of law, to public and private standards of honesty and morality, to the treatment of men, women and children, ethics, morality and,........... Oh Yes! I knew there was something else, theology

The system that has worked pretty well to blend all of these in Europe these past two thousand years we call Christianity. XXSTGR frequently finds himself having to distinguish his moderate position from that of Islamic militants, and it is not easy. But of course! Before someone tries to turn the tables on me with the inevitable, mandatory, dreary reference to The Inquisition (I am Protestant, by the way. We are among the lot the Inquisition disliked) or half-digested Crusades, let me ask: What else would XXTSGR expect?

There is no precisely defined Islam, no precisely defined Christianity. The infighting within Christianity largely revolves around attempts at such precise definition, be it the doctrine of the Trinity, the clause Filioque, the Nicene Creed, the number of sacraments (two or seven?), and such like. Why should this surprise anyone?

Notice that none of those examples even mentions "retail Christianity", the Babe in the Manger. That last bit, though, is part of the fabric too. That is the part that gets all the people here steamed up when some fool city counsel prohibits the greeting "Merry Christmas", or an idiot wishes me "Happy Holidays" ("Holidays"? That is "Holy Days". What Holy Days? Why, what Holy Days but the Holy Days of Christmas, or Christ's Feast, of course! Oh! Now I understand).

Take another example. The law, Civil Law and Common Law, is unable to define the meaning of "bank" (you know, the place where you either keep or owe your money), but Lord Denning in the House of Lords said (United Dominions Trust), in effect, "we may not be able to define it, but we all know a bank when we see it". Read the case report and notice that even he could not recognise a bank when he saw it (UDT) but had to rely on experts. Still, he said, for most practical purposes that is good enough.

So it is with Christianity and Islam. I cannot define either, nor can you, nor can Karl Barth, nor Thomas Aquinas, nor Pope Benedict XVI. I can see faults in both, but I know which I prefer, and Yes, I do understand that if I had been born somewhere else I would kick with a different foot; but I was not born somewhere else.

In the case of neither religion do I ask: "Do all Christians believe this" or "Do all Moslems believe that?" That is not how in any respect I live life.

In most matters I adopt what is to me a "reasonable" approach. For many years automobile X had a poor reputation for reliability. Sure, it was expensive, looked great, and when it did work (those precious few days in the year) it drove like the wind, so they said. But could anyone ever rely on it to start on a cold, wet morning? The general answer was No, and its expensiveness was the one certain element. I did not do a statistical analysis, but I never bought one. I thought then and think now I was right.

When I hear, similarly, of yet another abuse of religion, I do not therefore instantly demand a statistical analysis of Christianity or Islam. I know full well from living in a Christian society there are faults in Christianity as practised, and I believe from what I do see around me that there are many faults in Islam as practised even moderately.

It is fruitless for XXTSGR to claim that lots and lots of Moslems do not cut off hands at the wrist, or that you are free as the air to do this or that in Moslem countries, when I know well enough that lots and lots of Moslems do cut off hands at the wrist, and that the liberties of Christians and others are curtailed in many Moslem societies. Even if it were true that only a handful, in terms of percentage, of Moslem zealots is in the hand-amputation brigade, that percentage adds up to millions of people, and that is too many.

When we come down to a relatively harmless practice like those veils, I find myself in the old rhyme about Dr Fell. You recall:

"I do not like thee, Dr Fell!
The reason why, I cannot tell!
But this I know, and know full well;
I do not like thee, Dr Fell!"

No doubt the fault is mine, but the novelty is not one that I introduced, and I am entitled to like some things and to dislike others. It is like Lord Denning and the banks. Now some will, and do, tell me, "Tough T*tt*"; and I leave it at that, because I have other things to do with my life.

I shall remember, though. It is hard enough to accommodate to such things within the common bonds of Christianity, but after the said two thousand years we have pretty well succeeded. We are approaching tolerance. In my boyhood, where I lived, it was unknown for one kind of person to wear a green garment. That was for "the others". The colour alone was a symbol. I think that is no longer so.

The fact is, though, that in a thousand ways, one way of life differs from another, and the attempt to force them to mix is doomed. The representative here of the magistracy appears to be upset when people contemplate self-help in matters of law and social order. Such is the perennial response of Authority. The equally perennial response of History is that law is enforced by the consent of the governed, however self-important the magistracy, and what the people really dislike cannot be forced on them, not for ever.

Why Mr Straw is upset by this, though, defeats me. He is a politician, and of the ruling party. His lot over the past fifty-plus years carried the banner of multi-culturalism. Welcome, Mr Straw, to the results. To those here who contributed, whose sole mention of Christianity was and is to mock, congratulations on your achievement. You disliked Christianity; now you have something else.

flower
8th Oct 2006, 13:48
Up until very recently I didn't have a racist bone in my body, regrettably I fear that is drifting away from me. perhaps Racist is the wrong word perhaps Creedist is a better one, because I have no Issue with Jews, Hindus, Sikhs Buddhists but I have a major issue with the progression of Islam in this Country and other European States.
A religion that claims it is paying due respect to woman by covering them up is one of oppression. The human body is beautiful , the smiles we pass on to strangers can make the difference to someones day. I find it hideous that a woman is masked from head to toe and do not for one minute believe it is that womans choice inspite of the rent-a-mob who regularly appear beating their chests ( well we think they are their chests because they are covered who the heck knows) on prime time TV.
Ten years ago to see a woman dressed in Black looking like some wicked witch was rare, why has there been such an explosion of these poor covered up souls ?

I have visited Arab countries and experienced the most appalling abuse as a white woman with Blonde hair and blue eyes that I felt positively threatened, and when I made complaints I was treated with so much contempt it astounded me. There is no respect for women they are second class citizens and we should not allow this to happen in this Country in case we may upset a few ignorant men who can't accept the intelligence and beauty of womanhood.

I am not a bra burning feminist ( need my support) but I am a believer in equality of opportunity, by covering up these woman we are denying them the most simple of pleasures that of the human smile, we must do what we can to change this attitude. It is about time the silent majority stood up and said NO to all this multiculturalism crap.

El Grifo
8th Oct 2006, 14:04
Fair and honest comment flower.

It always amazes my why the most "religous" of people take it upon themselves to pick on the pinnacle of thier "gods" creation, ie the human form and go on to wrap it and swathe it to ubsurdity, simply because it is somehow a moral requirement.

Are they saying that their "god" in some way made an error, are they emabarrased by "gods" work. Why are they so mad keen to wrap and conceal their "gods" creation.

They were born naked but are condemmed by the "truist beleivers" to live as if they were ashamed.

G-ZUZZ
8th Oct 2006, 19:57
Davaar, you lost me at "The answers to that question are...."

Long, big-wordy, olde Englishe style posts shouldn't be allowed.

Mac the Knife
8th Oct 2006, 20:08
Long, big-wordy, olde Englishe style posts shouldn't be allowed.

Since anything above Dick and Jane reader level is beyond you, isn't it past your bedtime?

Sleep tight :ok:

AcroChik
8th Oct 2006, 20:10
Long, big-wordy, olde Englishe style posts shouldn't be allowed...

... meaning that posts beyond soundbites by educated, literate people who have some knowledge of history and require more than 15 seconds for the reader to digest and expell ought to be excluded, as they interfere with one's television-watching schedule.

Cheerio
8th Oct 2006, 20:25
A bit harsh there ZZ.... Davaars big posts are always worth the time!

prospector
8th Oct 2006, 20:43
" Do unto others as you would have done unto you"

It does not matter what the religion, creed, cult or whatever wants to call itself, if one lived by that simple rule would we all not be better off??

Davaar,
Very good post, I thank you.

Keef
8th Oct 2006, 21:07
Simmering nicely, I see. Spot on Davaar (as always).

There are some areas where folks will never agree - what sort of kneeboard to use while flying; whether or not an IMC rating allows a UK PPL to fly VFR on top in France; whether or not the "filioque" clause is Biblical; what should be our response to the Old Testament on this and that (should I be burned at the stake because my cassock is cotton and nylon, against the OT prohibition on mixing different fabrics in the same garment?). And so on.

As long as we can argue without threatening violence or death, there's hope. If I am to be bombed for my beliefs, then I will take a very dim view of the bomber's motives.

BUT ... as far as I am concerned, as long as it doesn't frighten the horses or interfere with others, beliefs are a matter for the individual. I happen to have some that I think are worth sharing, and I do that. No compulsion, of course. Anyone who wants to compel another human being's beliefs is going down a dangerous path.

If these ladies who want to walk around in their black head-to-foot robes with only a slit to peep out of are doing it because they want to do that, then good luck to them. Banks and passport officers and the like may ask them to show their faces - they'd better get used to that. If they are doing it because of male oppression (which I slightly suspect may be the case) then I'm not happy, and the oppressors should <expletive deleted> stop it.

BOFH
8th Oct 2006, 21:21
Long, big-wordy, olde Englishe style posts shouldn't be allowed
LOL d00d U r teh l337 LOL111onehundredandeleven11!!1111

I'd posit that most of us look forward to hearing Davaar's thoughts. His erudition is something to which the rest of us can aspire. Now run along, the grown-ups are talking.

BOFH

chiglet
8th Oct 2006, 21:44
Pasted from a "similar" thread
Now, as a "minority"...[a motorcyclist] I am "required" to remove my headgear when going into a bank or even paying for petrol [with CASH]
Do I have a "Human Rights" case that the Wicked Witch will take up on my behalf, do I :mad: :mad:
watp,ikrch

redsnail
8th Oct 2006, 21:59
chiglet,

THANK YOU. I absolutely detest being treated as a criminal because I choose to ride a motorbike. The camera's got my rego plate. They can see I have my wallet in my hand, probably the cash too.. Do they realise what a pain in the butt it is to remove the lid? No.


I have travelled and spent time in the Gulf and I know that in order to walk around in relative peace I have to keep my shoulders covered, not wear short skirts etc. Sure, I am aware that I should "cover up" in places of worship too. (Catholic churches etc). However, that is a place of worship, not just walking around!

Listening to men discuss freedom to wear what you want always amuses me. Religion is rarely the problem, it's (more often than not) men's interpretation of the written text. Subjugation of women isn't religious, it's people/power control.

G-ZUZZ
8th Oct 2006, 22:24
Sounds like someone's speaking from experience... But to accuse others???Poster A who rarely appears in Jet Blast save on this topic will .... draw ..... on the rich wells of GoogleLet he who is without google-expertise cast the first stone.