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View Full Version : Faith, the Amish and that Terrible Shooting


lynchburglemonade
3rd Oct 2006, 09:17
What makes anyone do this sort of act again innocence?

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/americas/5400570.stm

Discuss.

Huck
3rd Oct 2006, 09:55
What makes anyone do this sort of act [?]

El Diablo, I'm afraid to say.

The Amish are the meekest people on earth....

tony draper
3rd Oct 2006, 10:27
Baffling,especialy when its a apparently normal family man going about his normal business then out of the blue, this, almost makes one believe in demonic possession.
:confused:

RAC/OPS
3rd Oct 2006, 10:42
The Devil? Demonic possession? I'm sorry, although I see where you are coming from, these answers are indicative of the refusal of individuals to accept responsibility for their actions. Why can't we accept that someone is so f***ed up inside their heads that it is of their own free will that their own version of reality leads them to these atrocious actions? It is but a small step from that sort of observation that leads the social do-gooders to look after these monsters and provide nurture, pronouncing them cured so they can go out and kill, maim, rape etc again and again. At least in this instance he did the right thing and removed himself as well.

woolyalan
3rd Oct 2006, 10:45
Extreme schizophrenia can lead seemingly innocent people to do such things if left untreated, the brain is a wierd thing :sad:

Heliport
3rd Oct 2006, 11:31
It is but a small step from that sort of observation that leads the social do-gooders .......


I bet that's the first time anyone's suggested Drapes is even close to "social do-gooder" thinking.
Methinks he won't be too pleased by the accusation. :)

gingernut
3rd Oct 2006, 22:48
Just seen an Amish guy on ITV news, stating that the first thing he thought of after the massacre by Charles Roberts, was forgiveness.

Am I missing something?

AcroChik
3rd Oct 2006, 22:52
No, you're not missing a thing.

I've been fortunate to spend some time in and around Amish communities in the Lancaster, Pennsylvania, area for aerobatics events and such. I've come to understand that the Amish truly do make every effort to follow the example of Chist's life in its most basic form: nonviolence, acceptance and forgiveness.

Heliport
3rd Oct 2006, 23:01
gingernut

I've edited a word in your title and post.
It's Amish.

"Hamish" is a traditional Scottish Christian name (male).


H.

gingernut
3rd Oct 2006, 23:03
Thanks for that.

reynoldsno1
3rd Oct 2006, 23:06
I have visited some of the Amish communities in Indiana, and I find there is something very.....(thinking of word here) ... appealing, I guess, about their way of life. That they should be visited upon with such dreadful violence seems to only reinforce their values.

This from a devout atheist .....:)

tony draper
3rd Oct 2006, 23:45
The idea of going back to a simpler agricultural non reliant on technology type society is appealing,but it is bean breeze it could not possibly work, there are simply to many of us walking about these islands now for it to possibly succeed, we need industrial food production and distribution heat, light,energy water, waste disposal, sewage sytems, just to survive.
No matter how much the Amish or people like them claim to live technology free lives they will still rely to a large extent on the industrial society that surrounds them
Not knocking the Amish,large population can always afford a few drop out or cults the problems would start if we all wanted that lifestyle

I also seem to recal a organisation called the Kamer Rouge(sp?) tried to impose such a lifestyle on a entire nation a few years back,and they also had great faith in a book.

Buster Hyman
4th Oct 2006, 00:37
It's not like there is an "extremist Amish" branch like some of the more popular religions. However, regardless of the community, it is a heinous crime.:suspect:

Farrell
4th Oct 2006, 00:43
Yes the Amish are wondering folk and I second the sentiment of being attracted to their way of life.

In fact at this stage, I'd almost be ready to go and join them.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
4th Oct 2006, 01:39
Am I going to be villified then if I mention shunning?

G-CPTN
4th Oct 2006, 01:56
Apart from the response from the Amish community, this NOT a religious story.
The guy just happened to live nearby, and I don't believe his grudge was with the Amish. Pure coincidence.

Two's in
4th Oct 2006, 02:16
Yup, this was all about 2nd Amendment Rights (The Right to Bear Arms), not the Amish. Not pro or con, but the inescapable fact is that if you don't have the access to weapons, it's much harder to shoot people. The good folk of the USA accept that being gunned down horribly by some loony tunes is the price of personal choice, and so be it, but other less enlightened cultures are still somewhat appalled by this type of senseless carnage. And yes, we all remember Hungerford and Dunblane, but those are notable for their horror, shock, and thankfully, scarecity. This is the 3rd Fatal school shooting in 5 days in the US.

pigboat
4th Oct 2006, 03:17
This is the 3rd Fatal school shooting in 5 days in the US.

...which are, in all probability, copy-cat killings of the fatal school shoot-out in Montreal on September 13th. That happened in Canada, a country that has one of the stiffest gun control laws in the world.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
4th Oct 2006, 04:20
Think how many they'd have then, if they didn't

Mr Lexx
4th Oct 2006, 08:39
I believe that I saw the same interview. It was with one of the community leaders, his words were "We have to accept that God allowed this to happen and get on with caring for our community. Forgiveness helps us to do this"

I may have mis-quoted that slightly, but the sentiment is there. You have to respect a culture where revenge hasn't even crept into their mindset.

One is also strangely drawn to their way of life, but then, I would be quite happy to go and live on one of the Scottish islands and try to grow all of my own food. I think that the appeal of the Amish lifestyle stems from the apparent lack of stress and constant climbing and fighting that the "English" (as the Amish call anyone who is not Amish) deal with every day of their lives.

tony draper
4th Oct 2006, 08:50
Where did the Amish originate?,presumably they are not a homegrown stateside cult, they must have come form Europe,strange about them calling all outsiders English.
:confused:

lexxity
4th Oct 2006, 08:55
They are of Swiss/German descent and fled Europe due to persecution of their strict Protestant beliefs.

Gouabafla
4th Oct 2006, 09:12
I've got a good mate who is from an Amish family. His first language is Pennsylvania Dutch (which, rather confusingly, is a dialect of German) rather than English. These days he lives in Oxford and is C of E rather than Amish.

My understanding is that the Amish are an offshoot from a Swiss Protestant group, the Mennonites. I've worked with quite a few Mennonite groups in Africa and I've got a lot of time for them. They tend to do small scale medical and poverty relief projects. Not big things bringing in huge amounts of money, making a song and dance and then disappearing in a cloud of corruption, but small scale projects on a village level that really help people to give themselves a step up the ladder.

BTW, I've never heard of the Amish trying to convert people to their views, much less would a pacifist group try and force people to join them.
Putting the Amish and the Khmer Rouge in the same basket just cause they believe in a book is one of the dafter things I've heard on this forum.

lynchburglemonade
4th Oct 2006, 09:20
Last night they released the names and ages of those taken from their families, the youngest only 7 the eldest 13!!!!!

Descriptions of how he tied and then killed them, execution style is beyond any persons imagination.

I can understand why some have forgiven him, their nature is to forgive, but I think it is the understanding of what has happened will take time to sink into the community.

My deepest sympathize go out to each and every one who has lost someone in this terrible tragedy. They were the innocent in all of this and my heart goes out to their immediate families. For the emergency services that had to attend and the scene that confronted them. :(

http://edition.cnn.com/2006/US/10/03/amish.shooting/index.html

Mr Lexx
4th Oct 2006, 09:25
I've got a good mate who is from an Amish family. His first language is Pennsylvania Dutch (which, rather confusingly, is a dialect of German)

I think this might explain it! :ok:

At home and in their community, the Amish speak a dialect of German. This language, originally known as Pennsylvania Deutsch, has gradually became known as Pennsylvania Dutch. Amish children learn English at school and also study High German for worship services.

Paris Dakar
4th Oct 2006, 09:31
I happened to be watching Sky News when they broke with the Amish tragedy. I don't know why, but I felt very uncomfortable watching these poor people being 'scrutinised' by the 'News' (presumably) choppers and the sight of a white sheet covering the body of a sad soul. In the end I decided to change chanel and only returned to it later to listen to the update provided by the police

I hope that they are allowed to grieve in private, and that they can soon return to their way of life, albeit, perhaps changed for ever.

Gouabafla
4th Oct 2006, 09:32
Must admit that being a lazy so and so and not being sure how to spell Deutsch, I went for the easy option and just wrote Dutch.

I went to Germany a few years back with my mate on a work trip and it was fascinating to see him in a Germanophone enviroment for the first time. He understood just about everything, but boy did the locals think he had a strange accent!

Flying Lawyer
4th Oct 2006, 10:03
The first immigrants, fleeing from persecution in Europe, settled in Pennsylvania as part of William Penn's experiment of in religious tolerance. There are now Amish communities in several American States and in Canada.
The Amish community in Lancaster County is well-established, known as 'Dutch Country' (from 'Deutsch' as has been pointed out). Most Amish are trilingual - a dialect of German known as 'Pennsylvania Dutch' at home, High German in religious services, and English when speaking to people who aren't Amish.

'Dutch Country' is a fascinating place - Amish and non-Amish living in harmony and tolerance. As the Amish population has grown, the farms can no longer support everyone so many live in the local community. The only way of telling Amish homes in a street is a buggy outside instead of a car!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/Amish_buggy.jpg


I use 'Amish' in a broad sense - there are different names for the various branches of the movement which we think of as Amish. Some are stricter than others, but they all share the same core beliefs and values.

We might not be able to cope with their basic lifestyle, but we could learn a lot from their peaceful approach to life and to their fellow man.

.

BlooMoo
4th Oct 2006, 10:56
You have to respect a culture where revenge hasn't even crept into their mindset.

Why?

BM:confused:

chuks
4th Oct 2006, 12:25
I think we can leave the Amish out of this; it seems to be just that they were the victims of this crime since their school was easy to get at.

The thing I wonder about is how Mr Normal here can come up with such an arsenal, just like that. Too, when it was obvious that something was bothering him, no one bothered to make any moves to disarm him. It would have been an infringement of his personal liberties to have taken his guns away, I suppose.

Here we go again with 'God, Guns and Guts made America Great!' Or not, as the case may be, since firearms did not really play so much of a role in the making of America.

I don't know the answer to this one but it sure does look as though there is something very wrong when so many people seem to find it a good idea to work out their problems with a massacre of the innocents followed by suicide, 'going Postal,' as we say. It happens elsewhere too, but is it so prevalent as in the United States?

It looks to me like some unholy conjunction of the worship of fame, easy access to guns and a culture of violence.

lynchburglemonade
4th Oct 2006, 12:42
I don't know the answer to this one but it sure does look as though there is something very wrong when so many people seem to find it a good idea to work out their problems with a massacre of the innocents followed by suicide,I dobut this will ever be the last sadly. When you look at the tragic story in Britain recently of a man who jumped with his two young children on holiday? What drives any person to take another (mainly the total innocent and defenseless) to their deaths? The Dunblane in Scotland which was 10 years ago and still etched on my mind now. Can this ever be stopped? Not sure of the answer, just make the little ones not be frighened of going to places they enjoy, make them aware that there are bad people out there, but no one can police everybody all the time, realise that people who act rationally can turn out to be a mass murder, but then we get into the discussions of nanny states and how to stop the vigalanties going out and trying to spot these people before they strike.

I agree with this The thing I wonder about is how Mr Normal here can come up with such an arsenal, but would someone query buying of nails and a few ties etc? in this part of the world I don't think so as they are everyday used items. The bullets etc maybe in the amount that should be restricted more like in Britian.

I have no idea what the answer is to this horrid situation. But lets hope the copy cats of this world just don't jump on the band wagon with it.

Tolsti
4th Oct 2006, 12:47
In a note left for his wife, Roberts mentioned an incident 20 years ago, but it wasn't until he spoke on the phone with her that he revealed he had molested two female relatives who were between the ages of 3 and 5 at the time......

so basically he was a child molesting sicko....

Flying Lawyer
4th Oct 2006, 12:55
Just seen an Amish guy on ITV news, stating that the first thing he thought of after the massacre by Charles Roberts, was forgiveness.

Am I missing something?

Being able to forgive in such terrible circumstances is quite something.
I wouldn't be able to, and I doubt if many people would.

Standing by beliefs when they aren't tested is easy.

lynchburglemonade
4th Oct 2006, 12:59
I wouldn't be able to, and I doubt if many people would.
Flying Lawyer, forgiveness is a strange thing. You may forgive someone who has done something terrible to you or your family that is beyond words but not be able to forgive for a much lesser crime.
I speak from experience, I have partially forgiven for a crime just as hideous as this not totally and I never think I can, but I know the person's family involved because of their beliefs have forgiven his perpetrators. If they can then I should be able to too but I can't completely.

But if their beliefs set that attitude in their minds from an early age, then they humble me as my friend's family does.

Maybe this is a lesson learn for all of us.

Flying Lawyer
4th Oct 2006, 13:14
lynchburglemonade

I agree.

I wish I could say I'd be able to forgive anything, but I don't think I would be able to.
If it was bad enough, I probably wouldn't even try - which, for a Christian, is the bad part.

I'm not sure I entirely understand what 'forgiveness' really means.
Maybe Keef will see this thread and help.


FL

Huck
4th Oct 2006, 13:48
If you drive around the Katrina-ravaged areas of the gulf coast, you may see clumps of motorhomes parked in out of the way church parking lots.

These are inhabited by Mennonites, most of whom have travelled from up north to help rebuild homes for free. They don't advertise or paint their church names on their vehicles, but they are there. One of the truly under-reported stories of the Katrina fiasco.

Mr Lexx
4th Oct 2006, 13:52
Forgiveness in this case would be the Amish community praying for the dead mans soul, just as they are praying for their lost children, if they can pray for the murderers soul in the same way they pray for the children's souls, then they have forgiven the man. Total forgiveness is to wipe the slate clean and not to hold the act you are forgiving against the person you are forgiving in the future. Effectively, it is not to hold a grudge, but this seemed to pass by another poster earlier on!

Fun Police
4th Oct 2006, 14:14
...which are, in all probability, copy-cat killings of the fatal school shoot-out in Montreal on September 13th. That happened in Canada, a country that has one of the stiffest gun control laws in the world.

yes, and let's not forget Taber, AB, L'Ecole Polythecnique in montreal, which were also very tragic events but took place over a period of something like twenty years. maybe gun control does work? or at least helps.

Flying Lawyer
4th Oct 2006, 14:16
Mr Lexx

So, on that basis, forgiveness is a little easier if the person is dead.
My impression is that some people's faith and belief (eg the Amish) is so stong that they'd also be able to forgive in the total sense you describe.

Is not holding a grudge enough?
Or have we only truly forgiven if we can wish them well, as we would anyone else who's never harmed us or our loved ones?

I don't know, but suspect it's the latter.

Mr Lexx
4th Oct 2006, 14:30
You have it Mr. Lawyer, if you can only wish the best for someone without holding the original act against them, then you have truly forgiven them. As you say, it is probably easier for someone to forgive if the other party is now dead. It would be a whole other can of eggs if he was still alive. (for me anyway, but then, I am rubbish at forgiving!).

If you go by the definition of grudge, if you are not holding one, then you have, in effect, forgiven them :

Definitions of grudge on the Web:

stew: bear a grudge; harbor ill feelings
accept or admit unwillingly
a resentment strong enough to justify retaliation; "holding a grudge"; "settling a score"

XXTSGR
4th Oct 2006, 14:48
A definition of forgiveness which I heard a while ago is "giving up your right to resentment and your desire for revenge".

BlooMoo, your post above says worlds about you.

AcroChik
4th Oct 2006, 18:08
A definition of forgiveness which I heard a while ago is "giving up your right to resentment and your desire for revenge".


Wise words, indeed, XXTSGR.

Interviewed this morning on CNN, the grandfather of one of the murdered girls said, "'We must not think evil of this man."

An extraordinary demonstration of his faith.

G-CPTN
4th Oct 2006, 19:01
Forgiveness.
Those who were the victims of the Tsunami or Katrina have suffered just as severely. They have nobody on which to concentrate their anger (if any), so 'forgiveness' is either automatic or irrelevant. They COULD blame 'God', but either their religion doesn't entertain that or it doesn't do any good.
In some minds, the actions of others (whether for good or evil) are directed by some version of God (depending on region of origin) or belief in their religion.
As a born Christian, I have readily accepted that good deeds are based on 'the works of God' or the influence of a Godly way-of-life, yet I've pondered over acts of evil or sadness and natural disasters. It takes a deeper understanding of belief to accept that, whatever happens, it is the work of God. Non-believers have to resolve their feelings between seeking revenge and retribution (and what good does that do?) and forgiveness. Wasn't it in Jesus' Sermon on the Mount in the Gospel of Matthew, that Jesus says?: "You have heard that it was said, 'An eye for an eye, and a tooth for a tooth.' But I tell you, do not resist an evil person. If someone strikes you on the right cheek, turn to him the other also. And if someone wants to sue you and take your tunic, let him have your cloak as well. If someone forces you to go one mile, go with him two miles. Give to the one who asks you, and do not turn away from the one who wants to borrow from you." (Matthew 5:38-42, NIV)
It is, perhaps, but a few steps to reach the Amish attitude that, whatever happens, the perpetrator will be forgiven, and is, indeed, granted forgiveness in advance of the event. I'm not certain that I'm ready for that yet, but for those who HAVE made that move, I can but admire them. The converse, is mayhem, with everyone reacting with violence for violence, which escalates into further violence. I guess that many can see that schoolyard scuffles are best halted and the participants encouraged to 'make friends', and that gang-warfare is basically pointless. A few will abhor conflict between societies based (purely) on religion (or in some cases, creed), or race, or, in fact, nationality. Even neighbouring towns or football teams can be the cause of dispute. How sensible is THAT?

In this case, there is NO suggestion that the perpetrator bore any grudge against the Amish Community. Had the school been either a secular or non-Christian establishment I suspect the actions would have been identical.
Apart from the forgiveness, that is, and for THAT some will be amazed, others envious.

chuks
4th Oct 2006, 19:11
Have a look at this book, 'Miracle in the Andes,' for a useful slant on theology. It was written, perhaps 'ghost-written,' by a survivor of an FH-227 crash that took the lives of his mother and one of his sisters.

He had to come to terms with the nature of a Deity that could take the lives of two of his loved ones and yet allow him and a small group of survivors to live. He achieved a very interesting personal solution to this moral dilemma.