Confiscated crew items? Call the DTLR!

[freddy]

Having been very frustrated by the way in which security staff (directed by the DTLR) are consficating all manner of crew equipment from corkscrews to leathermen, I was encouraged to read the PPRuNe thread on this matter. So I phoned up the DTLR to ask if there was any plan to make a sensible distinction between crew and passengers. The chap said it all depends on what happens in Afghanistan, but it could get worse. He said he understood my arguments (how ludricrous it is to confiscate my tweezers when I have the controls, a fire extinguisher and the crash axe at my disposal) and he would pass my comments on. Now I'm not over-impressed with that as a reply, but if a few hundred like-minded PPRuNers call him on 020 7944 3000perhaps the message will start to get through. (He has heard of PPRuNe)

[Van Goff]

Quite agree - I have just had my corkscrew/bottle opener "requistioned" from my overnight bag. Yet there are scores of metal knives and forks, scissors etc etc freely available on the aeroplane. As Flight Crew/Cabin Crew some sort of sensible distinction should surely be drawn.

[CAT3B]

E-mail is [email protected]

[ 24 September 2001: Message edited by: Capt PPRuNe ]

[CRJ200]

At La Guardia last week my tweezers were confiscated too but then they also took my razorblades out of my razor. Totally stupid because they still had them for sale in the airport shop near the departure gate. Go figure.

[P.Pilcher]

Take your bottle of duty free (purchased on the aircraft or at the airport shop, hold it carefully by the neck and smash it on the seat infront of or behind you. You are now holding an excellent weapon which can easily be used to do just as much damage as you can with a small knife, and moire than is possible with a screwdriver or corkscrew. -Oh, small point - it only works with glass bottles. Er - the hosties hand out complimentary Champoo on my flights. :confused:

[BTB]

Had my (safety) nail clippers confiscated at Aldergrove next week (and I`m the skipper!) What would I have threatened to do, give the purser a scary manicure? :confused:

[FlapsOne]

My FO last week had his Leatherman confiscated at the crew entrance. It was packaged in a brown envelope, addressed with the flight number, and delivered to us on the flight deck to 'guard' for the flight!!!!!!!!

Am I missing something here? :rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[Hugh_Jones]

PPilcher
Could't agree more I have already written to the CAA to point out the stupidity of ill conceived knee jerk reactions. I returned from the US on Saturday as pax and was handed my lethal glass bottle as I boarded the aircraft. Take a look at the stock contained in Duty Free shops located beyond security detectors and they are full of lethal weapons. We must continue the vigilant security, stop selling DF and other lethal items beyond security and to replace all glass bottles with plastic, and of course remember the champagne flutes which will also have to be plastic. But what then if the plastic cutlery is to be strong enough not to break in your mouth it will then be equally dangerous. I don't know the answer to the last one

[Devils Advocate]

Well said Hugh, et al !

And of course whilst broken glass might indeed be lethally sharp, spilling / splashing about the highly volatile contents of a litre of vodka, gin, and / or god forbid, an Irish single malt - now that really would mean WAR ! - could lead to horrendous consequences should said same come into contact with a naked flame !

So why oh why can you not purchase your duty free at the end of your flight, at all airports ? Indeed it should be compulsory to do so !

But yeah, I know why......

It's 'coz the departure airports are of the belief that a captive / waiting bird in the hand is very likely to buy/spend much more than a pax that's just alighted from a flight, and whom wants to be on their way.

So right now the promise of filthy lucre wins the war against safety and security, e.g. the first two lines of the UK BAA's Mission Statement (http://www.baa.co.uk/main/corporate/about_baa_frame.html) are as follows:


Always focusing on our customers' needs and safety.

Achieving continuous improvements in the profitability, costs and quality of all our processes and services.


Just by their (the BAA's) wording alone they put 'needs' ahead of 'safety' (it makes you wonder, doesn't it ?!), and one would have thought that their selling / profiteering of potentially lethal weapons to passengers (and / or terrorists & hijackers) from their airside duty free shops surely puts the stated priority of their two lines above somewhat into question ?!

Ps. I really miss taking my 'Leatherman' to work - I've even got all the extra gadget bits for it too - and everybody knows that a true pilot is a total gadgeter !

[Avman]

BTB, with your powers to see into the future with such conviction, you could earn yourself a fortune. You're in the wrong job! ;) (read your post again).

[doggonetired]

Avman, don't know if you've ever been to Aldergrove, but it's a bit like a time warp and can take a while to "migrate" through "the system" so I think I understand what BTB is alluding to when he reports in mixed tenses. ;)

[airbourne]

I can understand that tensions are running high from all circles. Security is expected to make a determined effort to rid flights of all 'dangerous' objects. What i dont understand is removing razor blades. Whats the FO gonna do, give someone the shave of their lives???!!!

I dont mean to drag up the atrocities of a couple of weeks ago, but on the off chance I would have presumed that the skipper of a 737 could potentally kill more people with his a/c than threaten someone with nail clippers.

Security have to understand that its you people that are in charge in the air and in turn should be you that decides whats get on board and what doesnt.

[Wee Weasley Welshman]

I had my Gillette Mach3 taken off me this week going on a nightstop from STN. The security staff were nice enough in their condolences at having to follow ridiculous orders.

It did however have the positive effect that for the first time I actually went and had a good look-see at the fire hatchet on the flightdeck. Wow, what tool. I had no idea it would be such a piece of quality kit and so sharp. Boeing does not skimp in this area thats for sure.

Operation Knee Jerk will surely peter-out in the coming months.

Only decent intelligence and pax profiling are the viable areas for development in my book.

The US calls to arm flightdeck crews with firearms could result in some interesting scenarios. John Wayne comes to England...

WWW

[SOHCAHTOA]

A lot of this is just an initial reaction which will no doubt be righted with more 'sensible' procedures in the near future.
For the time being its a case of just going with the flow. If all I can find to winge about is the fact that they nicked my nail clippers, then I can live with that.

[dik dastardly]

Nothin like closin the stable door after the horse has bolted.
What's the point in all this when you can Board a Spanish charter flight bound for the UK with just about anything you like. An EC reg 737 can do just as much damage as a British one. These procedures are nonsense until all countries play by the same rules.

[P.Pilcher]

What it all boils down to is who is responsible for the security rules and regulations: Correct - Civil Servants. What is the usual qualification of a very senior Civil Servant? Yep - a double first in classics - yes that is a first class honours degree in Latin and another one in Greek awarded by either Cambridge or Oxford universities. To be able to enter these universities to study such material implies a public school education from a notable school. Although such people are very able (in Latin and Greek) they are invariably "Ivory Tower" types with no knowledge of the real world. They intend to remain in their ivory towers of course. Day after day the more sensible airport security officers apologise to me for the ridiculous regulations they are required to enforce. If you really want to learn about REAL security, talk to your ex-military F/O, but of course it would NEVER occurr to these Civil Servants to consult the military about the matters with which they are put in charge.

[BTB]

Whoops - of course I meant last week. As for whinging about the clippers, I said nothing and took it as read, why shoot the messenger?
Neither did my cabin crew as they took their ice tongs (try explaining to the pax that they couldn`t have ice; trivia I know) Luckily on the next sector we loaded bars containing mineral water in, yes you guessed it, strong GLASS bottles. So they could break the bottles and use them as ice scoops. The lunatics have taken over..

[Max Angle]

Quite agree with all above, the policy seems to be that all going airside are treated the same but this is clearly not the case. Engineers still have thier tools airside and the police are allowed to carry firearms airside, much more dangerous than my nail clippers me thinks!. The other huge hole that is STILL in place is that customs, immigration and the police can pass secrurity check points without having bags screened and without walking through the detector arch. I saw it happen recently before the events of the 11th and collegues report that they have seen it after as well. The powers that be need tp get on to this one pronto.

[MPH]

Had my Swiss Army knife confiscated the other day! Worst part, was that I was scheduled to take a freighter out! I wonder how they figured that one out? :confused:

[SOHCAHTOA]

My point is, that after an event of this magnitude, that procedures are implemented on the fly. Yeah agreed, some are daft in the extreme but Im sure that once, who ever 'they' are, have had a chance to get their breath back then some of the more daft stuff will be eliminated. In the mean time time just deal with it. And for those who think bombarding the DTLR with complaints is the most important issue at the moment, then take a moment to think about what has happened here.

upto 7000 people dead
1000's injured
companies going out of business
hundreds of thousands of people losing jobs and livelyhoods
etc etc

Instead of ranting at the DTLR maybe energies could be spent in more useful areas.

Ok, Im climbing down off my box now :)

[A and C]

Yes we have seen some stupid things over the last few days in the name of "security" most of these have been actioned by people who think that they must do something to be seen to be doing there job.

Now is the time for the security people to talk to the people on the front line for the pilots the IPA and BALPA for the maintenance guys the ALAE should all get around the table with the DTLR as well as reprisentatives of the cabin crew and the ground staff this way may be we can inhance security with out the empire building and petty regulations that seem to have sprung up over the years.

[BTB]

Top reply, A and C. Ludicrous and long-term unenforcable measures only undermine security. For instance, at Ltn, large numbers of flt crew have to park in a remote park, pass airside, walk across the airport, then go landside to crew in. If they are about to position with their baggage checked in, they are still airside for 10 minutes. Do they have their prohibited items in the suitcase confiscated, even though they are in hold baggage? What happened to common sense? I really miss the Swiss Army Knife I have carried in my flight bag for 25 years (same one, lovingly cared for, confiscated at BFS) that has rescued many a pax stuck in the lav, sorted out cabin defects, removed glass from tyres etc etc etc. Now I will have to use the fantastic big axe kindly supplied by Boeing. :confused:

[Deep Cover Gecko]

I've just been flying out of the Channel Islands for a couple of days. The security measures there seem to vary depending on who is working. For example, the cabin crew managed to take scissors, ice tongs and corkscrews airside for a couple of days, then had them all confiscated the next day. The response from security? To store them on board - wonder how they're supposed to get there to start with.
I have to say that one of the most interesting things I have seen confiscated from a pax was an electric toothbrush.

[EPILON]

Who needs a leatherman - I'm gonna take my mate the ex marine F/O who can kill a man with a single eye lash!! :D

[Herod]

The crazy thing is that most pilots carry the Swiss Army/Leatherman in the flight bag, which usually resides outboard of the seat. A potential killer would have to reach over me, and fumble in the bag for something he doesn't know for sure is there. In the name of security we have at a stroke removed perhaps the crew's only way to defend themselves and the aircraft. Except of course for Mr. Boeing's big axe.

[Per Ardua Ad Asda]

So. Tell me. What happens to all these nice, shiny, useful (indispensible), confiscated £50-£90 Leatherman tools now, then?

Someone at Group4/Securitas doing a handy little sideline in multi-tools at the car-boot sales perhaps?

Or maybe the traders within the duty free areas are in on a scam? Confiscate at the check-in and let the pax buy another one when through to duty-free side of customs? Nice little earner, eh? :mad:

As per usual, everyone is caught by a measure that will shortly be shown to have been completely ineffective. I would imagine that one reason why some people have stopped flying is not necessarily because of the perceived risk when airborne, but by how much they know they are going to be p!ssed-off once they get to the airport check-in. :(

[P22]

Yesterday several of the crew had their razors confiscated. The crew then handed out washbags to the First and Club passengers containing.......razors!!!

[BTB]

In the abscence of my confiscated razor, I tried to use mr Boeing`s big axe. Top shave. :p

[LatviaCalling]

A couple of things to remember is that in most commercial aircraft there are several overhead bins that contain oxygen bottles and first aid kits. They are open to the public, except for a sticker saying "For Crew Use Only." Some don't even have that. Well, what do you think is contained in the first aid kit? Certainly not only bandages, but also cutting tools.

An oxygen bottle is a pretty good slammer on the head. In the back galley area there are two fire extinquishers which would put out a pretty good stream of CO2 if aimed at a FA, or a passenger, at least to initially stun them.

In the toilet area, pardon me, but if you flush there is enough blue gook to gather up in a plastic cup and throw in the face of a FA. The disinfectant in that stuff is engough for a person to go blind for some time. The same thing about the cologne in business class. Get a cup of that and throw it in someones face. Steel coat hangers in the up-front wardrobe.

I could go on, but I don't want to violate some possible security.

Nail clipper? Bull sh*t!

[Cee of Gee]

MPH,
quite agree. As a freighter crew, what possible scenario are they expecting?
The F/E's on our L188's use a Leatherman to lower the dripsticks when refueling.
:rolleyes:
As everybody says, there are far more 'useful' items on board already.
Ever had a Loadie make you a cuppa? That'll effectively disable a person for a few minutes!
:p
I can understand the need to tell PAX, they will not carry on all the items mentioned, but the crews?!

[Per Ardua Ad Asda]

This all really is a complete load of horsesh!t with a cherry on the top.

The effort needs to go into ground security to ensure that everything airside is squeaky-clean and that there is NO opportunity for explosives to find their way aboard. These guys are not going to bring firearms onboard, so why have a firearm either in the cockpit or in the possession of a security officer, for them to snatch?

They may bring some form of sharp-edged or pointed tool onboard. If not, then they can probably find something else in the cabin to use.

MORE LIKELY is that they will be well trained in unarmed combat (if their leaders are going to spend several grand on them for pilot training, then they may as well chuck in a spot of judo/karate/kung-fu or whatever).

By removing all sharp and pointy objects from the cabin and/or preventing pax from bringing ANYTHING onboard that could conceivably be used as a weapon, we are, in a stroke, also removing any means of defence that either the flight crew, cabin crew or pax have of defending themselves and wresting control back from the hijackers.

In the aftermath of the tragedy in the U.S.A. the general travelling public are now all too well aware, that if their aircraft is hi-jacked, there is the distinct possibility that the aircraft itself will be used as a weapon against another target. If they sit back and do nothing they will probably die. They are now all aware that they will have to act and help the flight crew. As I said in a post elsewhere, if anyone moves towards the flight deck and doesn't make the immediate left turn into the bogs, they will jumped on by 20 blokes in the front four rows.

That and judicious use of the pilots arms and left boot should sort things out.

A word of caution to the pax though. After landing, they must remember the words "I only hit him once, officer" or else they may be up before the Beak charged with infringing the hi-jacker's human rights :eek:

[Stall4All]

Hi,

Well I can only partly agree with all pax jumping someone who's walking toward or opening the cockpit door.
You really don't want to know how many of those poor unexpecting pax, most of whom have never even traveled on an aircraft, walk into the cockpit thinking it is the Toilet.
I fly the 737-NG and its very hard to mistake the cockpit for the toilet. EASY.....COCKPIT=FRONT DOOR, TOILET=SIDE DOOR. Or do those pax expect us to fly the aircraft from the TOILET;-)
Well i just wanted to say that jumping every pax would be abit hard. And i must add, we allways have the jumpseat down, in that case the Terrotist would have to be a gifted circsus performer to climb over that with his Gillete razor in one hand and his Koran/How to fly a 737 in 1 easy lesson handbook, in the other;-)

By the way I also have my rather LARGE armyknife in my bag. 4 out of 5 flights the took it through the X-ray without even asking about the knife. And the fifth time it worked just to tell them to make it checked bagage and then hand it back to me, so i can put it in my bag and take it to the aircraft. As you can imagine they left it at that and handed me back the knife.

I have to add I fly from Berlin SXF and I take it they are not as strict as for example Schiphol or Heathrow.

Just wanted to add it sucks when they take our beloved pocketknifes. You don't want to know how much I save my company in maintanance and repares with it;-)

Greetings


A Fellow Aviator :D

[Few Cloudy]

The whole point of checking Crew baggage was to make sure that no one had deposited a Bomb in one (it has happened)and not to check for weapons (of defence?).

I once had an ex RAF dinghy knife (it was nicely attatched in its holster to the inside of the crewbag) taken away at Boston with the comment "If you are a pilot, why do you carry that?". Well the expression "go figure" hadn´t been invented, so I told them it was for sharpening pencils...

[madge]

As far as I am aware carrying Leatherman's has never been allowed, especially the larger version. Razor blades on their own have also never been allowed, scissors with blades over a certain length are not allowed (although that is up to the discretion of the security officer). Surely it is best that nothing that can be used as a weapon should not be allowed on board? Although I agree that confiscating these from the pilot is a bit of an over reaction!!

[FlapsOne]

OK Madge,

So no pax/crew can get on board with any of the following:

Pens, pencils, lighters, rulers (plotters), metal watch straps, bottles, drinking glasses, eye glasses, ear rings, all piercings in fact, high heeled shoes, mobile phones with extendable aerials, hand baggage with extendable handles, umbrellas, walking sticks, artificial limbs, magazines with staples, torches,............oh my God, it's got to be time to retire!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[ 30 September 2001: Message edited by: FlapsOne ]