PDA

View Full Version : Beware of on-line car taxing


phnuff
30th Sep 2006, 09:20
[Rant on]
Last week, I used the online service to renew my car tax; the new disc would arrive within 5 days. Wonderful I thought, no need to queue up etc. Today, being the last practical day it could turn up before the old one expired, the postie comes and delivers . . . . lots of junk mail, but no tax disc. I rang the number on my email receipt and managed to talk to someone who offered to send a replacement by Royal Mail special delivery or to allow me to pick one up from my local DVLA office.
"Oh, I'll pick one up" says I "I assume they are open today"
"No, monday is when they are next open"
I said "Ok, mail it to me please - by the way, I assume that I can still use my car"
"No" she said, "its a police offence to fail to display a disc"
"But I have paid, your system has failed and I suffer. Can that be right?"
"It's not a DVLA system thats failed, its the Royal Mail" says the lady on the phone
"But part of your 'system' should be ensuring the disc arrives otherwise it's incomplete"
"Between you and I, I agree" said the lady, "but that is not how the police see it":

So, I pay to use an online service, almost certainly introduced to save the DVLA money and cannot use my car (and it doesnt warn you of this on the website)

Wonderful b;**dy Britain -!!!

Funny how the junk mail always gets through !!

[/rant off]

BillHicksRules
30th Sep 2006, 09:33
Phnuff,

Sorry to hear of your plight.

I have to say I have now used the system 4 times (my car and wifes car twice) and have had the disc in my grubby mitts within 3-4 days.

I find it a lot easier than having to troop to the (ever more distant and crowded) post office with a load of paperwork (which I always have trouble finding).

Cheers

BHR

phnuff
30th Sep 2006, 11:16
Postscript to original post

Just had tax disc delivered by a bloke who lives in a town about 5 miles away. It seems the Post Office are employing morons !!!

amanoffewwords
30th Sep 2006, 11:50
the Post Office are employing morons !!!

The Post Office doesn't deliver mail.

XXTSGR
30th Sep 2006, 11:52
It seems the Post Office are employing morons !!!I have heard that the Pope is Catholic... :E

Paranoid Parrot
30th Sep 2006, 13:06
I have not used the internet just in case of what happened to you. I prefer to go to my local post office and have it done directly. It is never a good idea to try a new system, especially one that is so important not to fail.

G-CPTN
30th Sep 2006, 13:13
It seems the Post Office are employing morons !!!
So you'd better not go THERE!
As amanoffewwords points out (indirectly) 'tis Royal Mail who deliver letters (and Porcel Farce that lose the big packages).

phnuff
30th Sep 2006, 13:31
Ok OK, I was wrong
The Post Office are not the ones who employ morons, I apologies to them, it's Royal Mail who employ the morons and DVLA who appear unable to design a process.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
30th Sep 2006, 13:36
That's nothing. I let mine lapse and I went online to renew it...

...and they wouldn't let me :*



I had to go to the office to reregister the vehicle. Now I can understand I need a little punishment :O but if someone TRIES to gove you money, doesn't it make sense to accept it?

G-CPTN
30th Sep 2006, 13:39
The Post Office are not the ones who employ morons
Hey! Nobody said that your statement wasn't TRUE!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
30th Sep 2006, 13:46
morons have to work somewhere

G-CPTN
30th Sep 2006, 13:53
And many of them drive cars (ostensibly to get to work, but they won't leave it at that. They also want to use the car for social, domestic and pleasure, making other folks life a misery.)

Unwell_Raptor
30th Sep 2006, 14:26
I have never understood the compulsion of so many people to queue in a grubby post office to get a tax disc. I have used the postal renewal facilty for many years, and now I use the Web. I've only ever had one problem, and that was sorted swiftly. No court is going to punish you for fail to display in these circumstances.

For those who have not noticed, the date now ends in 2006 - join the 21st century. You may like it.

G-CPTN
30th Sep 2006, 15:08
No court is going to punish you for fail to display in these circumstances.
I have always believed that 'failure to display' is an absolute (from the days of steamed-up minivan when the disc would 'peel off' on to the parcel shelf). Taxed? Yes! Got a disk? Yes! In the car? Yes! On the WINDSCREEN? Nope!
I've even known of folks being done for having it 'behind' the rear-view mirror (on clear view from outside).

You must display this disc on the left-hand side of the vehicle's windscreen. If the vehicle does not have a windscreen fitted, you will need to display the disc on the passenger side.

My tax disc has been stolen. What should I do?

You can obtain a form to apply for a duplicate tax disc from a main post office. There is no exemption for driving a motor vehicle on the road because your excise licence has been stolen. In this case you would be committing an offence of failing to display.
The latter raises an interesting quandry. WHERE do you 'keep' your car whilst applying-for and receiving a replacement tax disc? Unless you have a garage or a private driveway, you ARE committing an offence. What do you do? Report the loss to the Police (and have them summonse you for the offence) or keep shtumm?

BoeingMEL
30th Sep 2006, 15:12
Once DVLA have accepted your payment your vehicle is taxed, the police national computer is instantly updated and you will NOT be prosecuted. FACT!
Cheers, bm;)

G-CPTN
30th Sep 2006, 15:22
In which case there has been an alteration of the LAW!

Rick Storm
30th Sep 2006, 15:23
You beat me to it BoeingMEL The police don't do you, they just report your car reg to the DVLC it's the DVLC who do you. As Boeing says if your paid up on the system your ok. Infact the tax disc (as of 2005) is only a receipt of payment.

IB4138
30th Sep 2006, 15:30
It seems the Post Office are employing morons !!!

So you have had a young Maasai warrior, calling at your house to deliver your tax disc?

No wonder it took so long to get to you!

amanoffewwords
30th Sep 2006, 15:35
it's Royal Mail who employ the morons

That makes me a moron then :{

G-CPTN
30th Sep 2006, 15:44
I notice that ColMac is silent . . . :E

oldbeefer
30th Sep 2006, 16:41
While we're on the subject, it seems that, recently, DVLA haven't always sent out reminders - I made the mistake of not checking mine until it was pointed out by a (very considerate) PC. He told me that there were numerous cases of reminders not having been sent.

Curious Pax
30th Sep 2006, 18:16
I have heard that the Pope is Catholic... :E
A bear just went past me heading for some trees with what looked like Andrex under his arm......

AcroChik
30th Sep 2006, 18:29
How I empathize.

Anything connected with the NY Department of Motor Vehicles (it's state by state here, there's no nationwide licensing and registration), is an absolute nightmare.

In NYC, in particular, any contact with the DMV involves standing in line for an hour or two, arriving finally at the bulletproof plastic screen separating you from the marginally functional drooler before whom you're literally a supplicant, who just at that moment goes to lunch ~ all in an environment as charming as what prison visiting rooms must look like.

Because one can use any DMV office in the state, some folks actually drive 50 or more miles to suburban towns to avoid the city chaos.

phnuff
30th Sep 2006, 19:25
Once DVLA have accepted your payment your vehicle is taxed, the police national computer is instantly updated and you will NOT be prosecuted. FACT!

BoeingMel, that is what logic would dictate and of course, that would make their 'process' valid, but when a representative of the DVLA(C?) tells me otherwise, I begin to wonder. Equally, I agree with DrRaptor's, (a man who I believe really should know the law), assertion that no court would punish you but again I have doubts.

BTW, I have just realised that I grew up with the guy who is the local postmaster. He always was a moron !!!

ShyTorque
30th Sep 2006, 20:30
I think it's actually an offence not to display a valid tax disc, paid up or not. I've heard of fines being issued where a valid tax disc had fallen off the windscreen and was lying on the floor...

spekesoftly
30th Sep 2006, 20:35
Whilst we're having a rant about taxing cars, it's high time DVLA came up with something to replace the disc itself. Trying to tear round a circle of poxy perforations without damaging the disc is a right pain in the proverbial!! :ugh:

ShyTorque
30th Sep 2006, 20:38
Yes, the perforated line is the strongest part!

I always rip mine unless I use scissors. :ugh:

Why can't it be a sticker so that we don't need a disc holder?

spekesoftly
30th Sep 2006, 20:43
And have you noticed that most dealer supplied tax disc holders are so deep and narrow, that removing the old disc is next to impossible? :{

419
30th Sep 2006, 20:43
Once DVLA have accepted your payment your vehicle is taxed, the police national computer is instantly updated and you will NOT be prosecuted. FACT
Not a fact, according to the DVLA website. (from the section regarding online renewals):
I have not received the tax disc. Can I use the vehicle without the tax disc displayed?
It is an offence to use a vehicle on a public road without displaying a valid tax disc

Daysleeper
30th Sep 2006, 21:14
I have not received the tax disc. Can I use the vehicle without the tax disc displayed?
It is an offence to use a vehicle on a public road without displaying a valid tax disc

True enough but on the basis that most tax disc enforcemnt in the UK is done now with number plate recognition cameras from motorway bridges comparing with the DVLA database, if you've paid up your not going to set of the machine. Not legal, but as long as your not parking downtown not very likely to get caught either.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
30th Sep 2006, 21:28
Trying to tear round a circle of poxy perforations without damaging the disc is a right pain in the proverbial!! Easy. Simply put a cup or jam jar of the appropriate size over the disc and tear off the surrounding against the edge of the cup/jam jar :8


It is an offence to use a vehicle on a public road without displaying a valid tax disc seeing as it's on their web site you must obviously follow the advice, and display a valid tax disc. Of course the site doesn't stress that it has to the the disc that applies to that particular vehicle . . .

419
30th Sep 2006, 21:36
and display a valid tax disc. Of course the site doesn't stress that it has to the the disc that applies to that particular vehicle . . .

But if the disc is affixed to a car other than the one it was issued to, it's not a valid disc.

spekesoftly
30th Sep 2006, 21:45
Easy. Simply put a cup or jam jar of the appropriate size over the disc and tear off the surrounding against the edge of the cup/jam jar :8
Great idea, except that I'm trying to tax my car, not practise advanced origami skills!! ;)

G-CPTN
30th Sep 2006, 21:50
Easy. Simply put a cup or jam jar of the appropriate size over the disc and tear off the surrounding against the edge of the cup/jam jar :8
Tried BOTH of those - the first spilled tea over the disc and the second spread jam over it :ugh:

Keef
30th Sep 2006, 22:31
Once DVLA have accepted your payment your vehicle is taxed, the police national computer is instantly updated and you will NOT be prosecuted. FACT!

That is NOT what the DVLA told me on Thursday.

Wife's car tax was due for renewal. The insurance was due at the same time - and was renewed well ahead of time. We spent a week trying to buy the new tax disc online, and kept getting refused for "no insurance". In the end, I rang the DVLA, who were very friendly and very helpful, and confirmed that the insurance details don't get loaded to their computers anything like quickly enough.

He could issue me a tax disc now, but it would take up to 5 days to arrive (so on the 2nd October at the earliest). Can she drive in the meantime? "We don't advise it. You would still be given a ticket by the police for failure to display".

She went to the Post Office with all the paperwork and stood in the queue for half an hour.
Nice idea, DVLA. Pity about the implementation.

Blacksheep
1st Oct 2006, 03:21
Renewed our daughter's tax disc last month while she was on honeymoon. Popped into the Post Office for ten minutes while Mrs. B was in the Bakery.

Don't try it on pension day though... ;)

G-CPTN
1st Oct 2006, 03:30
Renewed our daughter's tax disc last month while she was on honeymoon.
I would have thought that, once married, (as far as the parents are concerned) all taxation liabilities would cease.

Blacksheep
1st Oct 2006, 03:55
Quite so! But she did let me use her car while she was away, so it was the least I could do. I even topped up the tank when I was finished with it.

See! I can be nice when I want to... :)

G-CPTN
1st Oct 2006, 06:22
Yer can't do enough for yer bairns.
After all yer probably gonna rely on them when you're old.
Always said I'm expecting MY son to fix me up with a helo once he's established. At the moment he's struggling to afford his first house.

slim_slag
1st Oct 2006, 09:01
Yeah, bought a car last week. Road Tax paid and current, insurance cover paid and valid, MOT valid - but no tax disc to stick on inside of window.

There is no way I would take that on the road without the physical disc. Too easy and tempting a target and probability of being treated sympathetically not high, IMO.

Happy to tax it in the post office, more income for them and so less likely to shut down the local branch which is what they are trying to do round here.

Also noticed the new style MOT certificate is not legal proof that the car has passed its MOT. It's the existance of the record on the central computer that is the legal proof. Not sure I like that....

shack
1st Oct 2006, 09:31
Why not move here to France, no such thing as Road Tax and diesel is cheaper as well!!!

419
1st Oct 2006, 09:39
It's not much of a choice.
UK. Expensive to run a car.
France. Cheap to run a car, but have to use CDG:ugh: about a dozen times a year
Afraid the UK wins. (just)

Unwell_Raptor
1st Oct 2006, 09:46
The law on displaying discs hasn't caught up with the new reality of the DVLA database. Number plate readers can tell in a microsecond whether or not a car is taxed and insured, and that is what the police mostly rely on, certainly on my patch.

There is a snag with some councils though. My local council have a byelaw that insists cars in the council's car parks show a tax disc. Failing to display one leads to a £60 fine to the council - nothing to do with DVLA. I have no idea what the council's appeals procedure would make of that if you could prove that the car had been taxed all along.

A couple of years ago the renewal for my wife's car tax went astray in the post (it was a postman being arsey - I had one digit of the postcode wrong) and I had to get duplicate insurance and MoT. That meant that it was about the 20th of the month before I got the disc, and during that time I sat in a court dealing with untaxed cars while mine was downstairs in the magistrates' car park without a disc.

I wasn't too worried though, knowing how fair and reasonable magistrates are. I am sure that given proof I could have got an absolute discharge.

bjcc
1st Oct 2006, 18:43
G-CPTN

Through bitter experience you are right. There are 2 offences, failing to display, which is exactly that. And not having it.


I was issued an FPN for no tax, at 8.55 in the morning, on way to a post office with all the documents, and a filled in application for an excise licence, in a car I bought at 7pm the night before.

Could have been dealt with another way, but it wasn't. The offence is absolute, either you have it, or you don't, either you display it, or you don't. Although Police do still report it to DVLA, they do now also issue an FPN.

Yes, you can dispute the offence and go to Court, the end result may be an absolute discharge, according to UR, but that is a hallow victory, as its still a finding of guilt.

UR, the PNC, which police use is not updated from DVLA instantly, it will only tell you what is there on the last update. That, when I was a Police officer was once a week. If you tax your car at a Post Office, you have to wait till the records enter the system, which isn't instant either.

phnuff
1st Oct 2006, 18:49
True enough but on the basis that most tax disc enforcemnt in the UK is done now with number plate recognition cameras from motorway bridges comparing with the DVLA database, if you've paid up your not going to set of the machine. Not legal, but as long as your not parking downtown not very likely to get caught either

Hold on there. It's not at all unusual in our town for the police to set up spot checks in the town centre (nice little market town with a wide high street which means it can be done without stopping other cars). Still seem to do little about bad driving though. I seriously wonder if they do target things like speeding or no tax disc, as they represent a nice easy way of keeping the figures up. Things like bad driving are to an extent subjective and therefor harder to prove. They also tie up a lot of resource with no promise of an conviction which does little for the figures

Bahn-Jeaux
1st Oct 2006, 19:06
I am sure that given proof I could have got an absolute discharge.

Makes no difference really, still a conviction but with no penalty.
Not an acquittal.

I have the chance of a mitigated penalty for not having a disc after some kind soul reported they had seen my car with no disc while i was in the PO retaxing.
It points out that even if I have subsequently taxed the vehicle ( which they will know anyway), it makes no difference, pay up.

Just one more example of Governmental extortion.

Is it any wonder people are getting unconcerned by tax evasion offences and other such heinious crimes (well in the eyes of Uncle Gord and Tony anyway)

I have been burgled twice, car broken into 3 times and car stolen once.
Seen an officer in person twice.

Shame they cannot apply such cavalier attitudes to the deadly crimes of motor tax and speeding etc.

Bring on the revolution.
I wanna operate the guillotine.

G-CPTN
1st Oct 2006, 19:17
As mentioned elsewhere, serious villains will think nothing of driving without a tax disc on display, so it CAN provide a means of 'catching' them and making a chink in their armour. No tax disc may also mean no insurance, no MOT test, and, maybe, even a false or cloned registration. Son had BOTH of his vehicle registration number plates nicked from his car parked in a London street near his flat. No camera-recognition system is going to catch THAT person.
Car tax discs are (AFAIK) STILL part of the check effected by traffic wardens regardless of whether the vehicle is parked legally or not. Of course, a vehicle with 'false' number plates will not reach the driver. You can even enter Central london without fear of being charged any congestion charge (or receiving a penalty notice for not having paid). NORMAL people wouldn't do such things, but professional criminals just might.

bjcc
1st Oct 2006, 19:29
Bahn-Jeaux

You were done because AT THE TIME the vehicle was seen you did not have a VEL. The fact you were getting it, doesn't alter that, and the offence is absolute.

Liken it to someone caught evading buying his VEL. He will be fined and have to pay the back tax, meaning that, in theory his car was taxed and therefore he was not guilty of having no tax, so should not have been fined.

Sounds stupid, yes, I agree but that is why you, in spite of being in the process of buying the tax were done.

Yep, its an unfair system, but like all offences, when a minority take the pee, the rest get hit.

G-CPTN

Most 'heavy villians', in my experience have car tax, and all the other documents they should, thier cars are usually more roadworthy than most. The reason? They are stopped, searched and generally annoyed by Police so often it makes sense to do so. Unlike most they also usually carry all thier documents, thus saving a regular trip to a Police Station to produce them.

G-CPTN
1st Oct 2006, 19:34
bjcc, are driver's licences now also 'on-line?'
I was stopped recently, and I WASN'T given a producer, as it appeared that all (vehicle) 'documents' were on-line on the PNC.

bjcc
1st Oct 2006, 19:39
G-CPTN

Yes, they are on PNC now. As are most, though not all insurance details (The 'most' info is about 6 months old, so may have changed now) and the same with the new syle MOT's.

It's a good system, as it gives the Police Officer stopping someone a great deal more to work with in establishing the ownership of the vehicle, and identity.

frostbite
1st Oct 2006, 20:02
" If you tax your car at a Post Office, you have to wait till the records enter the system, which isn't instant either."

From a recent experience, I would guess it now is, or near as makes no difference.

rustle
1st Oct 2006, 21:00
If you MOT your car at 10AM it will be "visible" at the postoffice at 10:01AM same day, at DVLA by 0300AM next day, and on PNC same day sometime.

Soon it will be on DVLA at 10:01AM same day as well, but at the moment it is done in a batch at night.

If the MOT garage cannot print the MOT certificate for some reason, you can get it printed at any other MOT garage. (Even if the reason is that their "system was down", as they will have phoned it [the result] through to a service desk)

That the filth would issue a penalty for failure to display when the vehicle is taxed is more a reflection on them than anything else (since they know it is taxed).

God Speed the ECHR ;)

bjcc
2nd Oct 2006, 06:35
Speechless Two

If it's not on DVLA's computer, it's not on the PNC, which takes all it's info from DVLA concerning licencing.

rustle

A 'no VEL marker' went onto PNC after the vehicle hadn't been taxed for some months. I understand that has not changed. So no, Police wouldn't know you had one.

Not displaying a VEL is a seperate offence, and not connected with not having one. It is simply that you arn't displaying it.

slim_slag
2nd Oct 2006, 07:59
Not displaying a VEL is a seperate offence, and not connected with not having one. It is simply that you arn't displaying it.Yep, and nothing neccessarily to do with council car parks, it's an offence defined in a law passed by Parliament. Therefore almost any tomdick or harry with a funny hat can write you up and you either pay the fine or get found guilty in a magistrates court. Saying you had paid is not a defence, you get found guilty.

The UK could learn a lot from the States. Over there you get 'fix-it' tickets where piddling little offences like this might get a ticket, but you have 14 days to fix-it. So if you haven't got a disc because it's in the post you get a ticket, then when it arrives go to a cop shop with the disc, show it covered the period when you got the ticket, and they cancel the ticket. If you don't show the disc in 14 days then they continue as if you never had one. Same applies for having no lights etc, show a cop you have fixed it and the ticket goes away.

Don't Tell Him Pike
2nd Oct 2006, 10:32
And they only let you buy it a fortnight in advance!!!:*
Park up at airport on the 13th of the month, clear off abroad for 3 weeks, come back and get fined!
Why is there a time limit at all for buying a disc in advance?

Boggart
2nd Oct 2006, 10:36
What's car tax?

Live in a civilised country and you’ll never have these problems.

MoateAir
2nd Oct 2006, 11:03
Once DVLA have accepted your payment your vehicle is taxed, the police national computer is instantly updated and you will NOT be prosecuted. FACT!
Cheers, bm;)

But isn't the 'crime' "Failing to DISPLAY a valid tax disc"?

They would be stupid to proceed with any prosecution, but technically, it is a crime, although no fault of yours.

slim_slag
2nd Oct 2006, 12:05
But isn't the 'crime' "Failing to DISPLAY a valid tax disc"?
They would be stupid to proceed with any prosecution, but technically, it is a crime, although no fault of yours.It's a big PDF, but the figures for 2004 can be found in a Home Office (http://www.homeoffice.gov.uk/rds/pdfs06/hosb0506supp.pdf) Document.

In 2004 England and Wales 62,666 fixed penalty notices were issued for vehicle registration and excise licence offences.

Obviously it's not worth fighting these and easier to just pay up your £30. However some went to court, and there were 732 convictions in magistrates court for "Motor vehicle licence obscured or not affixed"

I make the assumption that these people have valid tax otherwise they would be charged with the more serious offence of not having paid. I think it's a fair assumption to make that the only offence they committed was not displayed the disc properly.

So are these people treated sympathetically by the magistrates?

Out of the 723 convicted only 47 were given absolute or conditional discharges. This would contradict the impression given above. So I would say that in general, if you have paid your tax and simply failed to display, you will be treated badly by the criminal justice system.

bjcc
2nd Oct 2006, 12:08
slim_slag

What UR referred to was a bye law offence, no, not passed by Parliament, but still enforceable.

Anyone can report anyone else for a Traffic Offence, just as they can for what you'd consider a crime. And yes, it does happen.

Correct, the fact you had paid, is not a defence to the offence of Not Displaying a VEL, which is a different offence to not having one.

If you don't have a VEL at the time you are seen with a vehicle on a road, then irrespective of the fact you were in the process of getting one at that moment, then you don't have a VEL. That you paid the back tax so, in theory you have tax, isn't a defence, as I said, at the time you were seen you didn't have it, and your vehicle should not have been on the road.

Ok, I realise that it seems unfair, and I agree to an extent, but the reason behiond it is the number of people who took the pee when things were laxer.

The Fix It scheme exists here too, but only for vehicle defect offences, eg Bald tyre, defective lights. VEL Offences are obviously not defects, so are not covered.

slim_slag
2nd Oct 2006, 12:34
The Fix It scheme exists here too, but only for vehicle defect offencesWell so it does, never knew that, and very sensible too.