My Night VFR Takeoff safety brief

[multi_engined]

Is there anything wrong with this takeoff safety brief for Night VFR? Please add or suggest any changes if you think it will make it sound better. Thanks.

"The takeoff safety speed for this aircraft is 65kts.

Should I have an engine failure during the takeoff run I will close the throttle, apply brakes and come to a stop on the runway.

Should I have an engine failure after takeoff with sufficent runway remaining I will close the throttle and land on the runway remaining ahead.

Should I have an engine failure after takeoff with insufficent runway remaining I will lower the nose to maintain the best glide speed of 73kts look 45 degrees to either side of the nose look for a clearing, an oval or somewhere safe to land. And prey for the best"

Should I have an engine failure at height I will lower the nose to maintain the best glide speed of 73kts, look for any clearings or ovals. Also prey for the best"

[OCNL Ts]

I would nominate a height at which i would attempt to turn back towards the field instead of saying "at height".

[carro]

G'day,

Consider that if you can't see anything, then why not just adopt the slowest speed possible, take out the flaps and turn into wind or the direction of a known clearing... trim and brace... not much point in gliding at best glide speed if you're not going anywhere in particular (unless it is a moonlit night, and you can see the ground).

Carro

[Spelunker]

I think you mean "pray"....

If you're being taught some level of professionalism in your training i.e. with the safety brief, I would leave out the "pray for the best" part. It's neither funny or necessary, and the fact that you repeat it twice in your brief makes you look far less professional.

Furthermore, what are you gonna do if its a perfectly safe takeoff? You should include in your safety brief, a short description of your intentions i.e. "I will depart overhead to intercept the 180 radial from SY VOR climbing to...." or something to that effect, so your co-pilot (instructor) knows what your intentions are.

Thats my opinion, otherwise its good.

[gassed budgie]

Don't forget to turn the landing light on to see what's looming up ahead of you. If you don't like what you see, turn it off again.

[the dean]

multi engined..

who exactly is this briefing for ?? is it to remind yourself of speeds ? but then you know those already. is it for the instructor..so does he. is it for the examiner..well ok but only for the flight test. is it for the passenger...i'm not interested.

for information of the passenger the rest is ok so things may not come as a surprise. your duty requires you to advise a passenger how to open the door, exit the aircraft etc etc but as to what you are going to do or not do ...not interested..in fact may serve to frighten.

after all..in commercial airliners..what are you told..not the pilots intentions...

i am sometimes amused about the lengths that people go to in order to tell me what they intend to do if this ...if that..some of which i certainly want to hear but the details..!! for what...? for the flight test so i know the pilot has the speeds in the forefront of his mind..ok but thereafter..??:oh:

certainly know what you intend to do in a given situation..( as an instructor i had once in tampa said..''every time you get airbourne in a twin expect an engine failure..that way you may be ready for it ..''after that fly the plane.

and my advice about turning back...DO'NT...unless you happen to be airbourne from a two mile long runway having started at the other end in which case you might just about be high enough to consider the action to be a safe one.....but its generally considered to be a no..no ..

glad to see you are methodical...and keep up the good work..

safe flying..:ok:

[multi_engined]

Spelunker I was only joking about pray for the best.

Thanks for the replies everyone.

[Centaurus]

The take off "safety" brief you describe is a waste of time and achieves nothing. You should already have some idea where you might crash land if you lose an engine and in any case the decision making will change every few seconds until you are at a safe height to join a normal circuit type forced landing pattern. And definately forget turn-backs unless you are competent at recovering from a spin at night below 1000 ft.

[Ultralights]

i prefer to keep the brief to a fairly basic few rules. the KISS principle.

engine failure after take off---- land straight ahead or the vicinity thereof at all heights in the circuit below turning downwind. and keep a mental note of possible sites..... eg Hoxton park. the M7 will make a great emergency runway and is easily accesible in the event of emergency in the initial legs of the pattern in either runway direction.

in other word, if your on upwind, or crosswind, then land straight ahead. only once you have reached downwind then returning to the airfield becomes an option. (remember downwind leg should always be gliding distnace to the airfield, as i was taught and NEVER TURN BACK!! unless on downind in which case, you have already turned back.)

at night, almost all roads will be lighted in built up areas, giving a refernce to height and a possible location for a landing.

in the event of an engine failure at night after take off or a few mins after, you will be packing ****e! this is where the KISS principle will be a lifesaver and the mental note of possible landing locations.

[Howard Hughes]

Totally disagree.. brief yourself and say it allowed. Turn the intercom off or say it quietly but do it all the same.
As a very experienced pilot once told me.. Treat every successful takeoff as an abort / EFATO that didn't happen.
I agree totally with Frozo! A plan you don't say aloud, is one you probably won't stick to in an emergency.

As the hardest type of rejected take-off is one at or about decision speed/point, a wise CP (sadly no longer with us) also taught me during the take off roll to say to myself, "don't go, don't go, don't go, don't go, don't go" prior to your decision point, then at the decision point a firm "GO", from then on you will continue as planned, at that point you take your hand off the throttle and retract the gear (if you have retractable gear).

This is something I still use today, of course the point has been replaced by a speed (V1), but the actions are still basically the same.

Cheers, HH.:ok:

[Xcel]

at night, almost all roads will be lighted in built up areas, giving a refernce to height and a possible location for a landing.


Haha until you leave that little city your stuck in. come out of the cities and it is quite different, always study the layout of the areas you are likely to fly to at night during the day and look for appropriate clearings or at least a direction to go if in trouble day or night...

My TOSB is...

" My TOSS is ___Kts, If i have an engine failure during the ground roll I will close the throttle and stop. If i have an engine failure once airborne i will land on remaining runway. If i have an engine failure and insufficient runway remains i will look for a field within 30* of the nose completing shutdown checks and mayday call if time permits."

Multi and above...

" My TOSS (V1-2) is __Kts, If i have an engine failure below ___ Kts (VMCA)(V1) i will close the throttles and stop. If i have an engine failure above ___ Kts i will clean up: gear up, flap up. Identify dead leg, dead engine verify with throttle and feather. Under todays weight and ambient conditions I expect to... (depends on day and weather) continue left circuit and return to land."

In saying all of that, i feel compitent enough now that i have only written these in my own flight supplement which i carry in my flight bag. I will read this every month but i rarely say it aloud unless im checking someone or im unfamiliar with the aircraft. You may feel it necessary to continue to say it until you feel you are proficient enough to know what to do without forethought.

Other people have noted information about departure. I do also have a departure review i will go through but it is usually a rolling check. I generally setup all required aids and talk through my steps as i setup. e.g.

" departing runway 09, left turn 700 on climb 5000 set obs 030, transponder 7700 (hehe). TMPFISCH complete."

Then im away, but that is all rolling and just said in my head as i setup each instrument, i.e hsi, rmi, obs, alt indicator.

Not much thought now all to repetitive and no multi-crew just yet to slwo me down.

[mattyj]

Forget about 73 knots..its not even marked on the airspeed indicator. Try 70 or 75 if you must fly into the ground that fast!

[aircraft]

Totally agree with Centaurus - just be aware of where you can put her down.

A funny little thing about human behaviour is that, in a stressful enough situation, what you actually do may be completely different to what you earlier said you would do whilst unstressed.

If your engine fails at a critical time, expect to be immediately flooded with emotions - some almost overwhelming. There will be fear, panic and stress. Do you really think you will be able to recall all the little details you recited 5 minutes ago, whilst calm?

The stakes are usually much higher on the multiengined takeoff, and so the emotions are even stronger - beware of the mindset to continue the takeoff when you really should be aborting (having briefed that you would abort). This particular temptation is very strong and not well appreciated (and not sufficiently pressed during training).

Every few years in Australia there are fatalities from a multiengined takeoff accident where the pilot continued the takeoff in circumstances where an abort was clearly required. In these cases, the pilot had most probably briefed that they would abort, given the same circumstances.

[Bula]

rrrighhhhhht...... me think some fellas need to read the ATSB report issued regarding multi engine accidents and fatality rates....
As for the briefing... well take it as you want to but a current well trained driver will be able to handle the emotions and run their SOP's. Emotion get in the way but confusion leads to indecision.. thats the dangerous part. Never make a decision based on emotion. As for knowing your area.... local knowledge is good but what about those one in 100 flight where you land at an aerodrome you have never been to?
Just get on with it Go or No-go... if your going go, if your stopping stop. Just make sure you know where your going to do it. I like howard hughes way. I know I do it personally. once that gear comes up its a go - but everyone to their own. (the gear comes up when I know I cant land and overrun safely with due regard to SOP and the POH)

[Led Zep]

rrrighhhhhht...... me think some fellas need to read the ATSB report issued regarding multi engine accidents and fatality rates....


I'm going to sit back and wait for the, "Bula, What is the ATSB? Please forgive my ignorance and fill me in."

:}:}:E

[pakeha-boy]

mate!!! if it makes you feel good then do it,..... nothing wrong with your attempt to "paint " a picture if an engine failure or other occurs...thats your choice,if you have to say it out aloud ...listen to what you are actually saying rather than mumbling a bunch of aviation jargon.....

Briefings are an integral part of any aviation (commercial) opreation Part 121...we are required to brief the takeoff......ie engine failure,before after V1,escape manuver,overweight landing,high speed speed low speed regime..etc etc...so you are really doing nothing different that what most of us are required to do...good practice for when you become chief Wally on the 787 for AirNZ ...PB

also after you stop on the Rwy.....call the tower....request the trucks....get on the PA and announce.....This is the CAPTAIN,....remain seated ....Flight attendants prepare!!!.......(absolutley beautiful mate,well done)

[Centaurus]

In a multi engine type it is imperative you immediately feather the failed engine prop especially if the failure is a severe mechanical one allowing the prop to quickly reduce below 800 rpm when in some types the prop will not now feather. If you have take off flap set and you retract it close to the deck as part of your take off engine failure drill you may have a significant nose down trim change and fly back into the deck. So in that case don't go blindly into dead foot dead side mantra, flap up gear up automatically as it all depends on the aircraft POH.

Every second you delay feathering the prop could be absolutely vital to a successful climb out. Don't always blindly believe what your instructor tells you - remember he got his info from his old instructor who could be wrong. Do your own research and be guided by the POH. Slow pulling back of the suspected dead throttle can also lose you precious feathering time so you have to get it right first time.

[777WakeTurbz]

Yeah, with engine failure in multi after t/o, the sooner you feather the prop and get the a/c cleaned up the better, if the a/c drops far below Vmca then it could end in a very uncontrolled and unusual descent into terrain.:cool:


" My TOSS (V1-2) is __Kts, If i have an engine failure below ___ Kts (VMCA)(V1) i will close the throttles and stop. If i have an engine failure above ___ Kts i will clean up: gear up, flap up. Identify dead leg, dead engine verify with throttle and feather. Under todays weight and ambient conditions I expect to... (depends on day and weather) continue left circuit and return to land."


My company uses a similar TOSB as well
"Blah, Blah, Mixture up, Pitch up, Power up, Flap up, Gear up, Dead leg=Dead engine, Confirm with throttle, close throttle, feather prop, mixture idle c/o, check fire/damage, check performance, if required 5* bank over live engine, if not performing land in a suitable area (at night with landing lights on if you dont like what you see, turn them back off):}
Secure engine, if performing, continue tight circuit and secure engine RTB...

All done in about 30 seconds or less if you actually patter yourself through it on the ground before take off it makes it much easier, though if it actually happened for real it wont be so simple i guess.:bored:

Didnt this thread start as a NVFR TOSB in a single engine a/c? :}

Turbz:cool:

[Oktas8]

Wasn't there a pilot in Young some years ago who, following an EFATO in his Chieftain, feathered immediately instead of taking time to do the drills thoroughly? Problem was, he feathered the wrong one. :O

multiengined - have you considered that you won't know if there's runway remaining until after you've lowered the nose? My TOSB is "EF on the ground, close the throttle & stop with the brakes. EF airborne, lower the nose, close the throttle, full flap if runway remaining otherwise pick a field within 30 degrees blah blah blah".

Cheers,
O8

[captain high]

Spelunker,

I think you mean:

"It's" - not "its"
"That's" - not "thats"
"It's neither funny NOR necessary" - not "It's neither funny OR necessary"
"Going to" - not "gonna"

That's my opinion - otherwise, it's good.People in glass houses shouldn't throw stones.

[aircraft]

captain high,

Very pleasing, and quite rare, to see a poster that has some idea of grammar and punctuation!

777WakeTurbz,

Your post indicates there are a number of important aspects to engine failure (on a multi) and the subsequent assymetric flight that you are unaware of. I am not surprised by this, as these aspects are usually not mentioned by instructors, and usually don't come up during discussions on the subject. This is a great shame.

if the a/c drops far below Vmca then it could end in a very uncontrolled and unusual descent into terrain
An inability to remain aloft can occur with the airspeed well above Vmca. On some twins, Vmca is so low it can practically be ignored.

My company uses a similar TOSB as well
"Blah, Blah, Mixture up, Pitch up, Power up, Flap up, Gear up, Dead leg=Dead engine, Confirm with throttle, close throttle, feather prop, mixture idle c/o ...
Does the POH say you should be immediately retracting the flaps? I believe everybody is taught this drill on their initial multi endorsement, but the POH for some types (e.g. Cessna 400 series) says that, if the flaps are down, leave them down until reaching a safe height.

How will you fair in court, having retracted the flaps immediately, when the lawyer representing the families of the deceased points to the POH where it says the flaps should have been left alone?

Flap retraction, under any circumstances, causes a relative sink. It also robs a small amount of power from your good engine. Irrespective of whether your flaps are electric or hydraulic, your good engine will have a few horsepower less to make thrust with whilst the flaps are retracting.

... if not performing land in a suitable area ...
How do you assess performance if it is very marginal? By observing the rate of climb? How long would you need to study the ROC indicator for in order to make the assessment? The initial yaw (and roll) from the engine failure, followed by control inputs and trimming effects, all cause small pressure errors at the static source(s) that will obscure the true rate of climb. Flying in air that is anything other than still will also cause variations to your ROC indication.

With the marginal performance of most light twins, you may find the ROC fluctuating between -100 and +100 feet but the net effect could still be a slight climb. Unless you are prepared to spend 10-20 seconds making your ROC observations, your assessment may well be wrong.

if performing, continue tight circuit
Unless you are in a lightly loaded King Air, attempting a tight circuit is a guaranteed way of eliminating any "performance" you may have had. Turning any vehicle (boat, train or car) causes it to lose energy (or "performance"). An excess of power is necessary to regain the lost performance (speed). This concept is well understood by pilots that have been educated in the subject of physics. A pilot that has done physics is a much better pilot than one that has not and this is why some airlines (e.g. Skywest) have a preference for the former.

The importance of not turning whilst assymetric is not emphasised anywhere near enough by instructors and other pilots. It should be hammered into pilots as much as the "don't turn back" message is to the single engine pilots. Unless there is an obvious need to get back on the ground quickly, there is no need to be in a hurry. Stay on the runway heading until at a safe altitude - even if that takes you 20 miles away.

Whilst on the subject of multiengined EFATO, another reminder: beware of the tendency to continue a takeoff when you should be aborting. It is in the nature of human behaviour that, despite having briefed otherwise, when suddenly confronted with the situation, pilots will instinctively try to continue. This is an aspect of human behaviour that is not mentioned at all during multiengined training but should be hammered in as much as the message about turning. The blissfully ignorant tend to think that whatever they brief, they will do.

[777WakeTurbz]

I dont disagree with you Aircraft, there are points in there should have included such as flap at safe height and probably with some margin on Vmca as well, and mentioned tight circuit as not using steep turns, it was just meant as dont stray further from the field than you need to, different wording would have solved this, my apologies :ok:

And in checking performance, a pilot should be able to judge whether or not the a/c would be able to maintain height and Vmca after a/c is settled when gear is up and prop is feathered, thats why it is one of the last things done on the checklist.

I didnt feel like posting the POH in here, so ill watch how i word my TOSB from now on.

Turbz:cool:

[Xcel]

Flap will lower vmca but reduce climb in 400 series due to the split flaps. i would be doing whatever is necessary look at a safe speed in that twin rather than safe altitude...

This did start from a single engine TOSB at night, i merely added the others due to his nick being multi-engine.

plenty of ways to skin a cat, different aircraft, different situations...

Always the way for pprune to end the threads this way. No such thing as simple advice on here.

When i get a new pilot come through the doors i generally tell them stick to what you know, incorperate what you understand, and fly with-in your comfort zone. If it isnt comfortable it isnt safe...

But then again im no airline pilot, but i think cheif pilot and 4,000 hours can give me some means for input. This isnt a pissing match but just give the kid some advice not legal jargon that serves no purpose except to confuse and attack fellow ppruners.

[777WakeTurbz]

This isnt a pissing match but just give the kid some advice not legal jargon that serves no purpose except to confuse and attack fellow ppruners.

Well said Xcel :D

[aircraft]

This isnt a pissing match but just give the kid some advice not legal jargon that serves no purpose except to confuse and attack fellow ppruners.
We're not talking about crosswind landing techniques, we're talking about peoples lives - you have got to know your stuff.

Xcel, if you think my post was "legal jargon that serves no purpose except to confuse and attack" then I suggest you need to take the subject a bit more seriously - you seem to have the "she'll be right" attitude, which sadly is all too common amongst pilots when it comes to this very serious subject.