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Dr Jekyll
27th Sep 2006, 19:42
I've just been watching an item on BBC news which reported in terms of shock and horror, "allegations" that organs used in transplants in China often come from executed prisoners.

Perhaps I'm missing something, but what exactly is the problem here? Obviously there are arguments against China's use of the death penalty, but if someone is executed what on earth is wrong with using their organs?

G-CPTN
27th Sep 2006, 20:12
That one might fuel the other?

419
27th Sep 2006, 20:21
Picture the scene.
An unscrupulous millionaire urgently needs a kidney or heart, and doesn't want to wait for a suitable donor to be found.
He hears of someone in prison in China who would be a perfect match, and next thing you know, this prisoner has been charged, and found guilty of a capital offence whilst in prison.
He is then executed, and the millionaire gets his heart or kidney.

Unlikely maybe, but certainly not impossible.

AcroChik
27th Sep 2006, 20:23
In China, this is a for-profit enterprise under the control of the military and penal authorities. The fact that China executes prisoners ~ perhaps even people imprisoned for being Catholics, Protestants, Muslims or having an idea in conflict with the State ~ and then disects them for profit has been in the press here for some time. Medical ethicists and others have been working legislation through Congress to try to ban import of such body parts and outlaw travel to acquire them.

Further, the much applauded, massively profitable traveling museum exhibit featuring bodies in various stages of disection is sourced exactly the same way. The company operating these exhibits operates factories in China in which workers peel back the various layers of the executed or otherwise deceased prisoners to create and preserve the finished product. The company pays penal authorities for the bodies. Some of its factories are located on the grounds of universities, under the guise of anatomy instruction.

Rich Lee
27th Sep 2006, 20:35
Suppose you get the heart of a killer and then become a killer. It could happen. I saw the movie.:eek:

Saintsman
27th Sep 2006, 20:37
Hmm. A BBC news report.

Look at another threat and you'd be expected to believe that its all propaganda or lousy reporting.

Is it really as prevalent as they made out. That there's huge hospitals charging £50K a time with no shortage of buyers?

Yes I'm sure it goes on, but on such a grand scale? Maybe not.



BTW I just noticed that the thread was started by Dr Jekyll........

tony draper
27th Sep 2006, 21:00
Some people are born to be spare parts. :rolleyes:
Serioiusly one thought more progress would have been made by now in growing our bits,ie hearts lungs ect from ones own seed as it were.
:cool:

AcroChik
27th Sep 2006, 21:10
Sworn testimony before the US Congress by Michael E. Parmly, Principal Deputy Assistant Secretary of State, about the market in organs extracted from Chinese prisoners:

http://www.state.gov/g/drl/rls/rm/2001/3792.htm

There's a lot of information about this, readily available. It's big business.

FakePilot
27th Sep 2006, 21:15
I saw it too on the BBC. Well, I think it was, they had English accents. Anyway, they were chopping the liver out of some guy while he cried "I'm not done with it yet!"

On the serious side though, I never thought it would actually happen. Now I'm all for stem cell research/cloning so we can take the financial incentive out of harvesting.

But it'd take a real man to die while refusing a harvested organ transplant.

tinpis
27th Sep 2006, 21:15
Man removes first penis transplant

2006/9/20
BEIJING, AFP


A Chinese man who was the world's first recipient of a penis transplant had the organ removed two weeks later due to a "severe psychological problem," a leading medical journal said Tuesday

The man's penis had been damaged beyond repair in an accident, leaving him unable to urinate normally or have sexual intercourse, the report in European Urology said.

Doctors at a hospital in Guangzhou, capital of southern China's Guangdong province, performed the surgery last year using a penis from a 22-year-old brain-dead man.

But, just two weeks later, they cut the attached organ off after the man and his wife had difficulty accepting the donated penis, it said.
(4" was a bit abnormal :E

"The recipient could urinate smoothly in a standing position at day 10 (after the operation)," said the report, posted on the European Urology Web site.

"At day 14 postoperatively because of a severe psychological problem of the recipient and his wife, the transplanted penis regretfully had to be cut off."

There was no signs that the man's body was biologically rejecting the transplanted organ, it said.

Although penis transplants had not been performed before, doctors worldwide have successfully reattached penises that have been cut off, it said.


Obviously wouldnt work it was brain dead. :E

419
27th Sep 2006, 21:53
That must have been the second penis transplant.
I thought this was the first:
Some supporters were reported to have opposed his appointment although others thought it advisable to put Mandelson in Brussels and therefore out of United Kingdom politics.

Sir George Cayley
27th Sep 2006, 22:00
Sounds like a cock up :eek:

Sir George Cayley

BlooMoo
27th Sep 2006, 22:24
Serioiusly one thought more progress would have been made by now in growing our bits,ie hearts lungs ect from ones own seed as it were
Couldn't agree more, however, as soon as this becomes remotely feasible what happens? It's made illegal of course - hence expendable resource from China (they've got billions eh?) fills the gap. Supply and demand - I thought Smith covered this issue years ago...

BM:confused:

fantom
27th Sep 2006, 22:40
Fools, all of you.
Do you really believe Draper is 100% British?:rolleyes:
See his alleged maritime history and listen to his dodgy accent.
A composite, if I ever saw one.
ps
Draper, old bean, Twenty quid will see this removed.

Krystal n chips
28th Sep 2006, 07:20
[QUOTE=tinpis;2876181]Man removes first penis transplant


Bit different to the 70's film "Percy" then----the recipient ( a very young Hywll Bennet sp ? ) couldn't get enough use of the er, donated organ :hmm:

The film was rubbish btw :p

Fliegenmong
28th Sep 2006, 07:58
These are the chinese have WMDs, and human rights abuses (farming / executing people for parts) and a communist regime?

We should ignore them not trade with them. To do so is to be hypocritcal and unethical in the extreme.:=

Oz sell natural gas to them now in a 20 yr deal that lets them have it at 0.03 cnts a litre or some such price PLEASE correct me if I'm wrong - I know you will.

Off for a crispy lemon chicken and special fried rice for dinner:hmm:

ORAC
28th Sep 2006, 08:05
But it´s not criminals, it´s Falun Gong and any other political prisoners who are available.

Report Affirms Organ Harvesting Claims in China (http://www.theepochtimes.com/news/6-7-7/43601.html) - "OTTAWA — A 45-page report (http://investigation.go.saveinter.net/) based on an independent investigation by former Canadian Secretary of State (Asia Pacific) David Kilgour and international human rights lawyer David Matas into allegations of organ harvesting from living Falun Gong prisoners in China was released Thursday at a press conference on Canada's Parliament Hill. The report finds these allegations credible." :suspect: :suspect:

lynchburglemonade
28th Sep 2006, 08:44
I saw this on the lunchtime news and then the late news. Absolutely horrid and to show the men about to be executed was beyond me.

But I wonder howmany transplantees would actually say yes to an organ if they knew. If it was a life and death situation then I suppose it makes no difference. But the ethics behind it I think is questionable.
but if someone is executed what on earth is wrong with using their organs?as long as they give their consent willingly then nothing but I doubt that completely.

ORAC
28th Sep 2006, 08:49
Well at least the prisoner´s family get to keep the bullet - after they´ve paid for it. :yuk:

BellEndBob
28th Sep 2006, 09:23
I will never eat spare ribs again....:yuk:

Shooting and then cutting them up? NO, lets stick with social workers, ASBOs, tagging and community service. Real winners.:rolleyes:

Taildragger67
28th Sep 2006, 10:13
Well at least the prisoner´s family get to keep the bullet - after they´ve paid for it. :yuk:

No they don't. The executed miscreant is cremated (less harvested organs but presumably still containing the bullet) toute-de-suite.

Ethical problem (aside from anything to do with capital punishment itself) is that the 'donors' are really in no position to give free, informed consent to the removal of their organs.

G-CPTN
28th Sep 2006, 10:26
Ethical problem (aside from anything to do with capital punishment itself) is that the 'donors' are really in no position to give free, informed consent to the removal of their organs.
Here in the UK, bodies don't (or certainly DIDN'T) belong to ANYBODY. Families are granted 'licences' for the disposal, but the don't have any 'rights' of ownership (if I understand the current situation correctly).

419
28th Sep 2006, 12:45
Just out of curiosity, if you've been given a Chinese heart in a transplant, do you feel like another one a hour later?:)

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
28th Sep 2006, 12:52
but if someone is executed what on earth is wrong with using their organs?but they were only guilty of driving past a speed camera at 3mph over the limit :ooh:

419
28th Sep 2006, 12:57
But according to a few people here, that's enough of a reason for the death penalty.

M.Mouse
28th Sep 2006, 13:04
but if someone is executed what on earth is wrong with using their organs?
as long as they give their consent willingly then nothing but I doubt that completely.

Why would anybody give their consent to be executed?

ORAC
28th Sep 2006, 13:09
Why would anybody give their consent to be executed?

Well Herr Bernd-Jurgen Brandes gave his consent. And Armin Meiwes made use of his organs....with a little chianti.... :uhoh:

The SSK
28th Sep 2006, 13:10
Might be more ethical to get them to swap the organ in question with the invalid recipient, then give them a couple of hundred dollars and set them free to enjoy the rest of their lives.

Fliegenmong
28th Sep 2006, 23:15
I ruve yu rooonngg time!!!
I seel yu my river? Number one price!
:E


Still should not be trading with them.

WMD toting, human right violating , communists!!
:uhoh:

Taildragger55
29th Sep 2006, 10:12
Larry Feign said it all in the "South China Morning Post" ten years ago.

And got sacked for his trouble.

http://humorist.net/lilywong/archive/arc990426.htm

lynchburglemonade
29th Sep 2006, 12:19
M Mouse

Why would anybody give their consent to be executed?

I apologise my poor use of sentance construction. I was commenting on the consent to the organ donation, not to execution. I doubt anyone, unless they were going to be eaten alive or thrown into the pits of fire would consent to death as an option before the act.

ORAC
29th Sep 2006, 12:31
I doubt anyone, unless they were going to be eaten alive or thrown into the pits of fire would consent to death as an option before the act If you look up the facts concerning the case of Bernd-Jurgen Brandes (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bernd-Jurgen_Brandes)I quote above, he not only consented, but he let Armin cut off and sautee his penis (which links to another thread), which they shared, before consenting to let Armin kill and then eat him.

Takes all sorts....... :uhoh:

lynchburglemonade
29th Sep 2006, 12:34
case of Bernd-Jurgen Brandesthey did an intesting documentary on that case last year on British TV.

Quite revolting how he went about recruiting the person if you actually think about the whole thing.:yuk: :yuk: