CPL / IR theory exams vs ATPL groundschool

[speedbird001]

Hi All,
I've recently enrolled on ATPL ground school via distance learning, I’m a little worried about the work we have to get through.
I'm very committed and tenacious but how are we going to remember this stuff??? I’m not finding anything to difficult to understand although there are some things that require a lot of study time on, I feel like the more I read the more I forget what I read a few weeks ago.
I do the progress tests closed book and my test scores are averaging the high 60s mid 70s but these tests seem a lot more difficult than the end of chapter tests in the book.
Anyone else with similar concerns? are the end of frame tests meant to be a little more difficult than end of chapter tests ?
Cheers
SB001

[littco]

Hi,

Not sure who you're doing your learing through, but I'm over 1/2 way through Module 1 with BGS.. The work load is hard and there seems when you start a Hell of alot to get through, I think the progress test are just there to test you have actually read the information, and I know BGS require you to submit all of them before your refresher course.. I don't believe for one second you will remember all of it, If you look at some of the feed back questions you start to get an idea of what they are looking for in each subject and that way you can tell what is relevant while studying. It shouldn't detract from the fact you need to learn or at least read through the subjects, but more enables you to focus on the key points.

[ThermoMan]

Hope someone can help, I'm a little confused.

I'm planning on starting down the long hard road of the modular route to fATPL, however I really really do need to take a 'pay-as-you-go' approach.

I can get some pretty cheap Cessna time through work and would be interested to know what the theory test requirements are for the CPL then IR, and how they relate to the ATPL groundschool?

What are the advantages / disadvantages of taking the CPL then IR exams separately? What are the differences between the ATLP exams and CPL / IR? Does anyone know how long this takes? I guess this can be studied by distance learning but does this have to be done in a particular timescale?

Told you I was confused...

[Funkie]

Hi,

There are no specific IR exams, certainly that I know of.

First things first, go to the CAA Website and download a copy of LASOR’s. As far as flight training and licensing goes, it’s the bible.

If you want to hold and ATPL (be a captain on a commercial airliner), then you must do the 14 ATPL theory exams as you say, possibly by distance learning. If you do not, say you wish to be a career instructor, then I understand the CPL examination subjects will suffice.

I think AFT in Coventry are the only school which does the CPL only syllabus. Quite happy to be corrected though!

The theory part of the ATPL’s can be done in a little as 6 months, I have heard!! They took me about 15 months, but I was working and hour building at the same time.

There are timescale limits, which triggered by the first exam sitting, but I can’t recall what they are.

Have a read of LASOR’s – it answers all your questions.

Best of luck with the training.

[Whirlygig]

From what I understand CPL + IR theory does NOT equal ATPL theory for fixed wing but it does for helicopters.

Therefore a CPL/IR for fixed wing cannot be upgraded to an ATPL so you have to do the 14 ATPL exams (as you're not a helicopter).

However, beware that there are a couple of errors in this area in LASORS and the actual Bible is JAR-FCL.

Cheers

Whirls

[Needlesplit]

Thermo man, if money is tight then do as little groundschool as possible. This means 1 course instead of 2 or 3 . The answer (as always) is do all the ATPL exams as soon as you are sure you will complete the flying before they run out.

There are several threads on here about where to do distance learning but the received wisdom largely seems to be that Bristol ground school or Oxford are pretty good. The cost is around £2000 for the course plus exams and as you can do the course in 2 bits the expenditure is about £1000 a go plus exams.

Anyway hope this helps, there's lots of good info on the respective website and some practice stuff on the Bristol one.

Regards

N/S:ok:

[LFS]

Whrils is right, the CPL + IR does not equal the ATPL exams so unless you fancy doing 3 sets of exams then just do the ATPL exams.

The time limits is 3 years from your last pass in the theory exams during which time you have to gain both a CPL and an IR if only one is obtained the exams revert to credits for just that part.

[ThermoMan]

Ah, the fabled 'path of least resistance'...

Would anyone care to share their experiences of the distance learning route? (Having just looked at the website and though it pains me to say it Oxford do look quite good).

Trouble with me is that I won't necessarily be able to take the time off work for anything other than sitting the exams. Presumably classroom instruction is optional? (Without wishing to sound like an arrogant SoB I do have a degree in Aeronautical Engineering and play with jet engines for a living, so I'd like to think I'd be able to get through it on my own - although I'm sure that particluar statement will come back to bite me in the rear at some point!! :O )

Does it really need a week to sit the exams (according to Cabair) - that's all my holiday used up!!

[helicopter-redeye]

If you are doing this for career purposes rather than 'fun' then take the ATPL exams (where there are more suppliers, so the costs are 'quite competitive') then complete the IR within 3 years (which you would do if this is for career purposes).

Else you have to sit the instrument papers again (which would cost you an unplanned £1800+VAT or so).

Some of the CPL ground courses are as expensive as the ATPL ground course but with less content. The extra cost is then in the extra papers you sit (but thats good for the soul).

h-r;)

[chrisbl]

The classroom stuff is compulsory even on the distance learning and clever SOB whatever you still have to knock up the 660 hours of "learning".

Learning in this context is what is required to pass the exams. What you learnt to get your aeronautical engineering degree and what you "learn" to pass the exams may bear some resemblence but dont bank on it.

Prepare to be frustrated by the analness of the whole deal. From the sound of it you will feel plenty frustrated.

[crazyscot]

Thermoman, I'm looking into these sorts of things just now and concluded that ATPL theory is the Way To Do It, even if I'm only planning on doing the CPL flying short term. Check LASORS for the reason why: ATPL exams are good for CPL and IR flying, but not the other way round - if you do just the CPL and later decide to get the (f)ATPL you have to sit them all again. Instructors I've asked at my club agree.

As for the distance learning options, do shop around. I've heard good things about Bristol, though there are plenty of Cranfield-based shops which are a lot more convenient for me. (Speaking of which, I'm attending Cabair's prospective-trainee seminar at Cranfield this Saturday to hear what they have to say and get something approximating serious figures out of them, though I imagine they'll be focussing on integrated ab initio students.)

[paco]

One route you could consider, and one for which my helicopter course is aimed at - if you get an ICAO ATPL and 1000 hours, you don't need to prove any training as you will be exempt (just tick the box on the exam application form). You will also need 500 hours on a suitable type to avoid the TRTO course as well, but a Canadian or US ATP would be easier to get short term (which does not mean that they are a pushover - although the writtens might seem "easier", the practical flight test can last most of the day).

Of course, family commitments, etc may well blow this out of the water but if you're in a mood to run away and join the circus it could work.

Otherwise, the ATP is the most cost-effective, but you have time pressure afterwards. Expect the whole process to take at least 6 months, including the exams, studying Mon-Fri, 9-5.

Phil

[XL319]

Just wanted peoples thought's on the difference between the 2. Is the ATPL exams much harder/more technical than the PPL exams or is there not much difference?

[bellend]

I am currently studying the early stages of ATPL nav with bristol on didtance learning and I must say I am finding it much harder than the PPL exams I did 2 years ago.

[mcgoo]

well put it this way, it took me a week and a half to pass all the PPL exams, its taken me 9 months for the ATPL exams

['India-Mike]

I'm coming to the end of my study and I'd say principal difference is in the volume. There's a bit more technical depth, not much, and while you could get away with no real mathematics or physics knowledge in the PPL, good schooling in these subjects would certainly help particularly with module 2.

If I had to identify potential problems it'd be in parts of Gen Nav (convergency and cartography), and the gyroscopes part of Instruments. Otherwise as I said, the difference is mainly in volume.

[beamer]

The great thing is you can forget 90% as soon as you pass the exams and be none the worse off !

[XL319]

thank you for your feedback. Obviously my main concern is that if i splash out on the cost of the course i don't want to be failing it. The last time i did any substantial maths/physics was at school and ive avoided it like the plague since, until i did my PPL....but i didnt find it too difficult. Mass & Balance is the devils curse tho.:O

Oh and i would assume the CPL theory exams are very similar to the ATPL exams?

[Hour Builder]

I'm coming to the end of my study and I'd say principal difference is in the volume. There's a bit more technical depth, not much, and while you could get away with no real mathematics or physics knowledge in the PPL, good schooling in these subjects would certainly help particularly with module 2.
If I had to identify potential problems it'd be in parts of Gen Nav (convergency and cartography), and the gyroscopes part of Instruments. Otherwise as I said, the difference is mainly in volume.
The great thing is you can forget 90% as soon as you pass the exams and be none the worse off !
couldn't agree more.

[maxalphaboy]

I Just sat and passed my first module of my ATPL exams, with the great Bristol currently studying Module 2. The exams are much harder, however saying that the theory that you will obtain from your PPL studies providing that you learn the subjects rather than hitting the PPL confuser, will hold you in good standing. Good luck with your studies.

MAB

[Happy Wanderer]

well put it this way, it took me a week and a half to pass all the PPL exams, its taken me 9 months for the ATPL exams

McGoo, I assume you must have studied for weeks/months beforehand, and then taken all seven exams in 10 days?? Or did you learn the Confuser back to front without picking up a theory book. Perhaps you went down the FAA route and did the one exam you apparently need to do States-side. . .

The PPL exams aren't easy and in my experience take time (weeks/months) if you want to learn the subjects thoroughly. I'm about four weeks into the ATPLs via distance learning, and the principal differences are ones of breadth and depth; underlying principles are identical, there's just loads (and I mean LOADS) of it.

Just to reiterate what others have said on this point; if you plan on doing the ATPLs, then make the PPL exams count. The more you learn at PPL stage, the easier it is to understand the big stuff when you come to it.

HW

[mcgoo]

no, I did JAA, I didn't use the confuser, just hard work, excellent evening classroom tuition (thanks echomike), computer based training.

[XL319]

have to say i didnt find them as easy as i thought i would, failed one or 2 the first time. Easiest i found was the Nav, Met and A/C perf, however Mass & Balance is evil! I would have even equated the PPL theory exams as being of AS Level. Would people say the ATPL are degree standard?

[Happy Wanderer]

I've heard people say the ATPLs are roughly A Level standard. It's not the complexity that's the problem, it's the shear volume of stuff that needs to be learned - and presumably remembered ;)

HW