Crew incapacitation (Ryanair)

[Nineiron]

Having read of the disturbing prospects of SAA adopting MPL training (thread down page), this morning's news on http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/northern_ireland/5377238.stm concerning a Ryanair flight with a totally incapacitated captain brings back reality.
Well done the crew, I hope the drills worked, and that the skipper is OK

[Engine overtemp]

"We were approximately 15 minutes from Derry and the co-pilot came on and said the captain had collapsed and due to procedures we were returning to Stansted airport,"

I really hope that this is journo rubbish and that they didn't turn back to Stansted when that close to Derry!

[gofer]

passengers had been told that the captain had been taken off to hospital and that the captain's wife and family were also ill

Perhaps just a case of food poisoning, or are salaries too low at Ryan for staff to be able to afford decent fresh food.
Apologies if you think this cynical or in bad taste.:rolleyes:

[Rainboe]

It is a bit, isn't it? An unfortunate case of a bug going around a family, as anyone who has had kids will know happens. No 'points' to be made out of this one- one hopes the poor gentleman recovers rapidly. To have a dedicated professional affected in such a way and collapsing in the course of his duties will be a traumatic blow to his self-esteem.

[rmac]

Not a medic, so I stand to be corrected, but short of heart attacks, strokes etc, are there many other illnesses where you can strap yourself in to the aircraft full of the joys of spring (with no signs of illness) and then be unconcious 45 mins later ?

I've got four kids, and so catch things regularly from them, and pretty much can feel it coming on.

Could it possibly be pressure at work that would encourage a captain to overlook or underestimate symptoms of illness.:confused:

[Number Cruncher]

Say your a low hours FO and this happens. You get a message from the CC that an experienced Captain is sat in the back as pax and has offered to come in and give you a hand, do you accept? Are we allowed?

Yes we are trained for this sort of thing but would it make matters easier?

[barit1]

In an outstanding case of CRM, it was an off-duty deadheading training captain that saved the day in the Sioux City UAL accident. He was the only one "flying" the aircraft (and in fact learn to fly it from scratch), using the only available control: #1 & #3 throttles.

Any airline that has not studied and accounted for this (admittedly very remote) case is missing the CRM boat.

[runawayedge]

"I really hope that this is journo rubbish and that they didn't turn back to Stansted when that close to Derry!"

Considering the runway length at Derry are there any restrictions on FO landings, is it capt. only? Another consideration is the additional workload on the FO, landing back at familiar surroundings, not having to perform a 'short field landing' and of course for operational reasons, replacement crew etc. Why state 'journo rubbish', seems sensible to me, though I suppose Dub would have been closer.

[Daysleeper]

Not a medic, so I stand to be corrected, but short of heart attacks, strokes etc, are there many other illnesses where you can strap yourself in to the aircraft full of the joys of spring (with no signs of illness) and then be unconcious 45 mins later ?

In a word: Yes.

In several words: gastro-intestinal problems such as food poisoning and others can be very rapid in their onset and can have an incubation period ranging from within and hour of eating the food to a couple of days. We also live in a society where we eat more and more food prepared by someone else, be it a take away, a "ready meal" or similar and like most vital services ,our councils Environmental Health officers do a largly unrecognised and under-resourced job of keeping the worst stuff out of the food chain.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

There is no one normally more critical of Ryanair than I am, but in this case a Ryanair pilot has acted flawlessly in a very difficult situation.

Fifteen minutes from Derry means thirty minutes from Stansted, so it is hardly a transatlantic flight. In the case of an incapacitation the surviving pilot has 3 priorities - safety, safety and safety! If the FO was relatively inexperienced he would understandably wish to land at the most familiar airport, with the longest runway and the least hassle. There is no doubt that this would be a hugely stressful experience for him and, as all pilots know, that would significantly increase the chance of a serious error being made. His job is to get the aircraft safely on the ground and he has done just that. Instead of us debating a young FO's decision to land at a tricky airport, running of the end off the runway and passengers being killed or injured, we are debating a non-event. That is how we want it. I think he is to be commended for his actions and he did exactly the right thing.

[SLFguy]

I really hope that this is journo rubbish and that they didn't turn back to Stansted when that close to Derry!



Apologies if this is a daft question......

If the situation occurs "15 minutes" out, surely the FO is going to want more than that amount of time to 'get his sh*t together' before landing anyway...so may as well go to the most suitable field for his purpose?

[Engine overtemp]

He was very, very pale and his eyes were rolling in his head, absolutely motionless. The attendants ran up to him," he told BBC Radio Ulster.


I think I would prefer to get seen by a doctor as quickly as possible. The fact that the F/O did a good job of getting the aircraft down is not in dispute, what I question is the company's procedure of returning to Stansted (375NM from Derry in a straight line - and very unlikely to be able to be done in 30mins NSF) rather than land at Derry or divert to Belfast or even Dublin or Manchester.

[A330AV8R]

Bottom line . . . they made it down safely !

for that I say quedos to the F/O

:ok:

[Roadtrip]

As a fully qualified pilot, I certainly hope the FO could safely land the aircraft, even without an extra hand to move the flaps and put the gear down. I'm surprised that would even be questioned.

[Eff Oh]

Just a thought, but do they have pushback tugs at Derry?? The F/O may well have wanted to land and shutdown on the runway and be towed in. He may not have been able to taxi from his side, so going to STN where he has more facilities, and prob more familiar to him, was a sound call. :ok:
Well done.

[cwatters]

Not a medic, so I stand to be corrected, but short of heart attacks, strokes etc, are there many other illnesses where you can strap yourself in to the aircraft full of the joys of spring (with no signs of illness) and then be unconcious 45 mins later ?

Don't underestimate food poisioning...

Over a period of about 20 mins I developed a severe pounding headache, large blind spots in my vision and vomiting. In effect I was totally incapacitated and quite scared (particularly by the partial blindness). It took about a day before I was fully back to normal.

A few days later it happened again and I went to the doctor. He diagnosed a bug of some sort....but my wife had been fine and we had been eating the same food etc.

Later I heard that a brand of fizzy drink had been withdrawn after a load of school children had been taken ill. Penny dropped... I (but not my wife) had been drinking from a family size bottle in our fridge.

[Rainboe]

Let's not get hung up on '15 minutes from Derry'. The actual quote from a passenger was 'approximately 15 minutes from Derry'. In a very alarming occurence, this copilot had the presence of mind to show initiative and recover the situation well. I think we should stop second guessing his decision on the sparsest of information. Well done that man.

[X-Centric]

Congratulations to the First Officer on a job well done. Derry = short field; possibly poorer weather than Stansted; unfamilair, limited facilities; no push back; no replacement Captain waiting on standby; narrow taxyways with no high speed turn off. (possible runway closure due to no tiller on the FO's side). Stansted = the exact opposite with other alternatives for getting the pax back over to NI.

Well done :ok:

[AERO_STUDENT]

As a FO on the 737 in the UK, can I offer my 2p worth that if I were in a similar situation, I'd have absolutely no qualms about returning over a longer distance to a much better equipped much more familiar airfield. Within reason of course, and only when there's a few minutes difference as in this case.

If (and I don't know this) the RYR crew were STN based, I'd be much more tempted to go do the approach at a place I know inside out, rather than somewhere requiring much much more 'thinking' about etc.

Obviously if the guy's breathing his last then the most expeditious option is probably the better...

Incidentally too, in our airline SOP is to autoland after an incap....Autolands are sometihng we're not allowed to do from the RHS in day to day ops....so do you do something very new and non-standard during this high capacity time, or stick with a manual landing as per every day?? With good weather I'm afraid I'd fly the landing and argue against that particular SOP later.....but maybe that's for another thread.

[essexboy]

I understand that mid way through all of this the ATCO who was talking to the the FO went into labour.

[NWSRG]

As an amateur, and quite happy to be corrected, would it not have been wise to get the aircraft on the ground at the nearest suitable airport as soon as possible?

I understand the argument about being familiar with the airfield, but surely a professional pilot should be able to divert to an airfield unfamiliar to him if the need arises?

And if he was within a short distance of Derry, then BFS would be available with a good runway length, the associated emergency services, and in a very short time-frame?

Saying all that, any one man landing in a big jet is to be applauded...

[Musket90]

Also the replacement aircraft that did the STN-LDY-STN flight later that evening was the last to land before the runway closed for the scheduled works. Well done to all concerned.

[Sir Norman Fry]

Having considerable experience operating into Derry, I can only say that the FO did the right thing and went back to STN. Derry is a very short runway, only an ILS on one end (RWY 26) with NDB non-precision on RWY 08. Who was to say that R26 was in use? I have no idea what the weather was like there last night but it's normally blowing a gale across the runway and raining! Would you want to land at an airfield with performance limits in a windy and dark night single pilot in a B737-800? No thanks! The flight is very short from STN so a diversion back is no great length of time and the guy was still breathing, he was not about to die. (I know this for a fact). So why not go back? The FO is to be commended on his excellent work.

[Sir Norman Fry]

The Captain did not require hospital treatment. As for the closeness of hospitals, both airports have such facilities very close so it's not really an issue in this particular case. If it was a heart attack case then I think personally I would have looked at either Belfast Aldergrove, Dublin or Liverpool, favouring which ever was closer or had the best weather, if weather was a factor.

At the end of the day, this FO did a first class job and everyone (including the incap skipper) is safe and sound. :ok:

[NWSRG]

...he was not about to die. (I know this for a fact).

Can we take it that the FO knew the pilot was not about to die?

[ray cosmic]

It's a valid emergency, so pressure on the remaining crew is high.
You have to take a decision and as long as its a safe one, continue with the plan. It is very hard to come right away with a suitable alternate at any moment on any route on any given day. Maybe he just remembered weather at STN was good or whatever. Situations like this are not like following a recipe to bake a cake. Any decision which ended up saving the majority of peeps is the best. Captain got lucky. But you can't expect the FO to start cowboying into the unknown being unprepared for the sake of the Captain while in fact he has to take care of a probably almost full cabin, a crew and a multimillion dollar aircraft.
Good job.

[eidah]

Totally agree with the decision in the grand scale of things he made the right decsion for this reason. As already mentioned derry is a cpt only landing however if it was a heart attack and the cpt wasent breathing would they have allowed him to land?? Even so that could end in disaster. I dont know how long the fo would have been in the company however being ryanair crew and based in STN he would have made 1 or 2 landings a day into STN so would have known it very well. Also STN a base if he had diverted anywhere else apart from a base the aircraft and passengers would have been stranded there. Well done to the FO

[Kestrel_909]

Damned if you do, damned if you don't.

The only way we'll know where the aircraft actually was as all this happened is if the FO in question says so on here (unlikely) or an ATCO in the know, says on here (less unlikely.)

If it was 15 mins from LDY, does it put the flight somewhere near TOD? At that point, starting to divert to an (unfamilar to the FO) alternate, single handedly in an already high pressured situation...? Or am I barking up the wrong tree?

The aircraft landed safely and passengers reached their destination the same evening. :ok:

[RoyHudd]

Well played the FO. Fuel and weather being sound, then home base was the right call. Many many more lives than the CM1's were at stake, and single-pilot operation of a biggish public transport jet is a rare occurrence.

Sim does NOT nearly prepare one for this, although obviously it permits the usual rehearsal of drills and the actions.

Now think of a mid-Atlantic (winter) incapacitation of a crew member. And an aircraft full of people. The other guy's life is important, but not to the extent of risking 350 others. And the decision-making and actions are tough. No field within 2 hours flying time. Weathers at possible alternates tricky.

This FO proved himself more than worthy of progressing to the next stage. Be that present-type command or long-haul.

Would folks without experience please not contribute? Their questions are not valid.

[DH121]

How would we feel about returning to STN in case of engine failure? Like engines, pilots are usually provided in pairs and if both of these essential "systems" are lost, eveyone dies. Except, pilots have proven to be less reliable than engines, especially when under stress.

[NWSRG]

Would folks without experience please not contribute? Their questions are not valid.

As someone who:

(a) may very well have been on that flight, and

(b) is a professional engineer involved in a safety driven industry,

am I suitably experienced to ask valid questions of my professional pilot friends?

[Ringo]

I trust in accordance with the latest memo from ryr flight ops mgr the cpt in quetion will explain in writing why he was ill and what steps he will be taking to prevent a re-occurence. No really I'm serious!!

[runawayedge]

'Would folks without experience please not contribute? Their questions are not valid.'

As an earlier contributor to this thread I regretably I am one of those without 'experience', I may stand corrected but I felt that I made a positive contribution. Your post is indeed interesting and raises many 'questions', indeed I would challenge some of your assertions. My point is that open debate/discussion is healthy, however, while agreeing that some contributors have little to add, it also appears at times that a small minority of the flight deck fraternity contributing to this forum have exclusive rights to 'opinions'. Now.....back to the original thread, and the opinion of others.

[Chuffer Chadley]

Good grief!

The debate rages on... should he have gone to LDY? Gone back to STN? Tried somewhere else? DUB, anyone?

To have this debate sensibly we need AT LEAST the following pieces of information:

- Position of aircraft at time of incident. ('About 15 mins from LDY' is not good enough)
- Prevailing wx at the time.

Without these, we can't tell whether the FO made a good or bad decision. Even with these, we can only begin to start speculating.

Anyone have any facts to add to the discussion?

CC

[Rainboe]

There's nothing to discuss- read the thread. The lad done well. Stop trying to outguess him. Non event. All's well that ends well. Good on 'im. Stop trying to spoil it- it is not for you to decide. Not for anybody to overrule- he had an emergency and he dealt with it, satisfactorily. Period. Over and done with. Nobody will now criticise him. No 'Pprune Courts Martial' after the event, please!

[BusyB]

FO did well.:D

I wonder how an FO from SAA under their proposed training scheme would have fared?

[xetroV]

Obviously if the guy's breathing his last then the most expeditious option is probably the better...
On the surface you'd say that "most expeditious option" is equivalent to "closest airport", but in reality "most expeditious option" could very well translate to "most suitable, fully equipped nearby airport" instead.

Preparing a landing at an unfamiliar alternate airport with tricky approach procedures takes time, even in normal two-pilot operation, but in addition, any range advantage will be nullified rapidly in case of a go-around - which doesn't seem that unlikely for a single-pilot NDB or circling approach to an airport with a short "railway-restricted" runway.

No question in my mind that this F/O made a good decision.

[Five Green]

Also the Captain may not have been completly out of it and helped in the decision making.

Well done ! Not an easy day on the job.

Cheers

[bacardi walla]

It could be that RYR told the F/O via VHF for it return to STN so as to avoid any further disruption to their program. Call me cynical, but it wouldn't surprise me :hmm:

[Underload]

Just some info.

- The A/C was still close to STN, near Blackpool as fas as I'm aware.
- FO's are not allowed to land in Derry. It is a very restricted airport.
- Ryanair aircraft are not HF equipped.
- FO was new, but familiar with STN.

There, my first post after more then six years of only reading :)

[captjns]

It could be that RYR told the F/O via VHF for it return to STN so as to avoid any further disruption to their program. Call me cynical, but it wouldn't surprise me :hmm:

Not cynical from the inexperienced. The F/O deserves a firm well done for his conduct, his professionalism and decision. The ragmeisters are quoting 15 minutes from LDY, not the crew. Wx also a major factor. LDY has no tugs and therefore the aircraft would have been a long time fixture at LDY, this being the least concern. Once again... well done to the F/O:D

[stator vane]

should be PIC time!

if he thought it best to go to STN then that's good enough for me!

"nearest SUITABLE airport"

i.e. known restaurants-language (do you speak Derry?)-girlfriend (for post flight relief)-parked car perhaps-etc...

vital factors--hah.

hope all is well.

[AlexL]

Well done that man.
One thing thats been mentioned earlier in this thread, but probably missed by everyone who thinks you should park it on the nearest bit of tarmac, is that you can't taxi a 737 from the right hand seat. So unless you go to a decent airport, either a company base or with some other quick provision of ground handling, then you will be parked on the runway for some time - not ideal to evacuate an ill person.

[barit1]

Just a question - since I don't know the U/C systems that well - can the 737 nosewheel steering tiller be disengaged so the ship can be steered (albeit imprecisely) with brakes & differential thrust? At least you could clear the runway that way.

[AERO_STUDENT]

Just a question - since I don't know the U/C systems that well - can the 737 nosewheel steering tiller be disengaged so the ship can be steered (albeit imprecisely) with brakes & differential thrust? At least you could clear the runway that way.


It's possible to manouver the 737 on the ground from the RHS. Not with the greatest deal of precision, but it is possible.

Again, as an FO (especially if I were to land at STN) I would not think twice about vacating the RWY from the RHS with the rudder pedals and if necessary differential braking, then come to a stop on the high speed exit.

It may very well be possible to taxi further with differential braking etc but it wouldnt really be necessary....a suitable runway exit should be enough....I don't really like sitting on runways unless I'm moving!

[blackmail]

hello aerostudent,

as you mentioned, you can steer with the rudderpedals +/-7°nosewheelsteering,albeit not very precise. so the last thing you would like to do after a successfull singlepilot emergency landing, is to steer the ship into the grass,trying to aim for the nearest exit in order to clear the rwy.
remember that, after declaring an emergency(mayday call) & decided to land at stansted, you & you alone own the place for the duration of the emergency & you are allowed to deviate from any rule or regulation, if it's in the interest of safety.
so, i think the lad did a great job by landing back at stn, stop the aircraft on the rwy, parking brakes on, start apu+ on busses, shut down the engines, disarm slides, door open & stair extended & have the medics on board to attend the ill captain. i think this was more or less what happened.

[Carmoisine]

Bacardi Walla , You can read my posting history to see where I stand in relation to FR, I'm not one of the pro muppets or a supporter. But what you wrote is just so idiotic, it is quite clear to anyone who knows, that you are spoofer. Are you seriously trying to suggest that the company would want an emergency handled to suit their commercial schedule? Honestly, I don't know why people who have absolutely no knowledge of what they are talking about feel the need to butt in with only a half witted grudge against Ryanair. Cop on, the lot of you!

[JazzyKex]

I was passing over the top of this situation while heading to the ocean and as a crew we listened in to the unfolding events until out of range.

I can only imagine the stress levels to a relatively new pilot being put in an incapacitation situation, but from what I heard this chap did an exemplary job. He remained calm throughout the discourse I heard. Initially he did mention potentially diverting to Manchester (which maybe gives more of a clue to his location at the time) but as any of us with experience know, 'nearest suitable' is defined through a combination of factors, not just the geographically closest. Familiarity, and something as simple as having the airfield plates already at your side and having just left knowing the weather and runway in use make a complicated diversion much less likely to end in incident by returning.

From what we heard he seemed well ahead of the game, even informing ATC that he would need help at STN when he arrived due to lack of tiller but could probably manage the RET. A sign a great capacity given the circumstances. (For those using the NUTA he was thinking well ahead!)

Irrespective of weather in Derry given the circumstances I feel he performed superbly. He seemed very aware of all the factors affecting him and made a reasoned decision untimately with a completely successful outcome.

I agree all those non-pilots are entitled to their opinion, but on this day in this circumstance a professional pilot made a decision which everyone benefitted from. There is nothing to question, only commend. I hope this chap continues his career with similary good decision making skills and execution. Ryanair are fortunate to have him in their employ and I hope acknowledge him accordingly.

[AERO_STUDENT]

hello aerostudent,

as you mentioned, you can steer with the rudderpedals +/-7°nosewheelsteering,albeit not very precise. so the last thing you would like to do after a successfull singlepilot emergency landing, is to steer the ship into the grass,trying to aim for the nearest exit in order to clear the rwy.
remember that, after declaring an emergency(mayday call) & decided to land at stansted, you & you alone own the place for the duration of the emergency & you are allowed to deviate from any rule or regulation, if it's in the interest of safety..

I absolutely agree. However I stand by the fact that IF IT WERE ME....and I landed on 23 at STN....I'd take the a/c clear of the runway via a high speed exit. At a different airport, say BRS, with no high speed exits, I wouldn't bother. Why spoil a successful moment getting stuck in the muck! :ouch: Horses for courses.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Yeah I'm with Aero Student in that situation I'd plan to use the pedals to make the most suitable RET at a place like STN and vacate the runway. I've often thought of what I'd do faced with the situation this chap found himself in and I've always concluded that the most important thing is to give yourself time to prepare for a single pilot arrival, and not feel compelled to rush the aircraft onto the groung somewhere. Not an easy thing to do when faced with the incapacitation of your captain. Seems like he did exactly that and kudos to him, job well done. I bet he won't have to buy any beer for a week or two!

[rmac]

I thought I had asked this question before, but maybe my computer link dropped, or a moderator removed it ? it is rather simple I will agree, but humour me....

On the taxi issue, assuming that the PIC was not still strapped to his seat, and assuming the co-pilot completed the landing to a full stop from the right hand seat in which he is trained and feels comfortable...

Is there a major issue with applying the park brake, moving seats to the left to access the tiller and completing the taxi from that side.

If the answer is a technical no, I would appreciate if someone would let me know why, and if it is an SOP that you can't swap seats with the engines running and no one covering the controls, thats a different thing altogether, but in its own way would also be quite interesting :confused:

[Carmoisine]

Its like this rmac, As a F/O, and allegeldly the F/O in this case was a new/low experience first officer, you have just done an extremely good job in flying an airliner full of Passengers back to your home base instead of an airfield which is a mandatory Captains only landing due to factors such as length,lack of radar services, airspace and a train that runs close to the runway which can cause a go around on short finals. You have wisely choosen your home base, so you can probably set up the approach from memory and just do a quick double check from memory off the plate, its also given you some time to get focussed after the shock of the Captain becoming useless, and time to get your adrenaline in check. You've wisely choosen a nice big base with lots of medical facilites. Also facilites to take care of the Passengers, although the Captain is sick, you don't want to risk all of their lives to save just one after all.

You didn't have the luxury of hours and hours to mull over nitty bitty details like our "Experts" on PPRuNe, to painstankingly compare the merits of this one over that one ad naseum. Your the man in the hot seat and people are looking at you to keep the show on the road, by yourself.

As you come in to STN because you've declared your PAN/Mayday (As appropriate) and because of that as the ATC guys on here keep reminding us, you are their No.1 priority. Everything revolves around you, everyone else can wait. You get direct routings, vectors to 10 miles finals. You do a great job, doing it all by yourself. You land on the runway. Everyone safe. Job done.

Why oh why would you then f%^& it all up by then taking the biggest risk of the day and attempt taxiing the aircraft? Using an RET or not, an aircraft which has no tiller on your side in FR, and only 7 deg steering angle using the Rudder Pedals, a task you have NEVER prior performed in the aircraft before. The most likely outcome is that your going to undo all that good effort and taxi the Aircraft onto the grass, and give some of the uninformed muppets on here and tabloids ammo for months. A "Ryanair skids off runway in STN" thread would appear within minutes. The post saying FR taxi too fast and thats why it happend would appear moments later.

People here talking about not wanting to block the runway!? You have an emergency, maybe the only one you will ever experience in your entire career. I wouldn't care if it was blocked for the next six months. Let ATC worry about that for you.

You park it there until a Capt is called, or a tow truck comes and collects you. That is also as far as I can tell, the company policy as advocated by the Line Trainers that I have encountered at least, although I can't find it written in the Manuals.

As for swapping seats, again, as an F/O you have never done this outside the sim, which I am sure is not the same thing. Today is not the day to start trying new things.

[blackmail]

hello carmoisine,

i agree totally with you & could not have said it any better.

[rmac]

Thanks Carmoisine, that puts an understandable human perspective on it !

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Why oh why would you then f%^& it all up by then taking the biggest risk of the day and attempt taxiing the aircraft? Using an RET or not, an aircraft which has no tiller on your side in FR, and only 7 deg steering angle using the Rudder Pedals, a task you have NEVER prior performed in the aircraft before. The most likely outcome is that your going to undo all that good effort and taxi the Aircraft onto the grass

I take your point but I don't actually think it is a risk for the F/O to taxi clear using the pedals. At STN you could quite comfortably use the pedals to vacate at a RET and even roll ahead to the parrallel taxiway if you so wished. Even taking into account the adrenalin in that F/O's system, it is a relatively simple task as long as you are at the correct speed. Whether he did or not is obviously an irrelevance, everyone is safe so end of story.

[Carmoisine]

BMRR, I believe you to be very wrong. I believe it to be against the company proceedures. Ask your line trainers at STN.

Again I repeat, you've never done it before, you are not trained to do it, you are not approved to do it. Blocking the runway is not your concern, you will be towed clear in 35 mins. Aircraft will have to divert. No risk to life. What a prat one would look taxiing it onto the grass at 50kts after saving the day.

[earnest]

Carmoisine, the best and most complete post on this subject. Pity we had to wait until page 3.
My company also does not allow FOs to taxi the aircraft even though many have a tiller on the right side (daft, we think, but rules is rules). The training is to handle the emergency, stop on the runway, then it becomes SEP (someone else's problem).
If you want to get your sick crew member dealt with asap, stop the aircraft, shut down the engines, then disarm the doors where the steps and medics should already be waiting. Job done.
Sure it's inconvenient to block an international airport's runway for half an hour, but we all carry enough diversion fuel in our two crew aircraft, don't we? Besides, diverting is not as inconvenient as having to fly single handed with a mate who is not looking too healthy.

[blackmail]

hello carmoisine & earnest

i am totally with you(see my previous post) & what can we do more to convince these FO's to stop ON the rwy & Not to taxi on the ret?

[Carmoisine]

Blackmail, The problem is that they are probably not Ryanair Pilots, or even pilots commenting on something they now nothing about. Some people actually blur the lines of reality and think that their Flight sim virtual airline is a real thing. Any line trainer I have ever met says you stop on the runway.

[BEagle]

JazzyKex - an excellent post. I share your congratulations to the F/O who did such a good job under testing circumstances.

Given the emergency, the skies would have parted quicker than Moses v. the Red Sea and direct to 10 mile final at STN would be all ready for him. Better that than expect a low-time FO to cope with flying singlehanded into an unfamiliar airport such as Manchester.

Stopping on the RW and getting immediate medical assistance to the captain would have been top priority. Steps out, medics on, captain out and into ambulance, new captain in, steps in, taxy clear. Allow 5-10 min in all?

I hope Mo'L has sent a letter of congratulations to the chap involved at the very least!

[The Obvious Choice]

I have to confess that I haven't read all the posts in this thread so very sorry if this has already been said.

I was the approach controller concerned with this incident and although it really isn't any of our business, it was the decision of ATC and the emergency services including the BAA obviously, that he stopped on the runway. The main reason for this was that it gave the emergency services much more room to approach the aircraft and deal with the problem.

The pilot, as I'm sure other people have siad, did a fantastic job.

[SIDSTAR]

A well-trained professional pilot doing an excellent professional job in difficult circumstances. Well done.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Carmoisine

Correct - I don't work for ryanair. The rest of your previous post doesn't apply to me. We didn't agree, fair enough, I'll resist the urge to respond to your sarcasm.

This thread, and particularly the handling of the situation by the F/O, interests me because it is an occurence that I think all low hour F/Os must have in the back of their minds. This guy clearly got it right, and with good support from ATC looks like he made all the right choices. So if it happens to me I'll stop on whichever runway I elect to land on and go down the pub.

Happy Carmoisine?

[MarkD]

It's worth remembering for anyone *still* thinking he should have pressed on is that Eirjet managed to land on the wrong field heading to LDY - with two fit crew.

[Faire d'income]

The debate here seems to centre on whether the FO was right or wrong. It is rarely as simple as that.

It has been mentioned that the FO was quite inexperienced and it has also been suggested that the flight was 15 minutes from Derry. I'm not familiar with LDY but I know enough to know that the FO made a sensible decision not continuing to destination. That is not to say he would have been wrong to continue just that not to do so was a much better decision.

If he was over Blackpool or the Irish Sea arguing for a return all the way to Stn seems odd given the proximity of Dub, Man and Lpl not to mention Bhx, all of which are much closer with decent runways. However we dont know how inexperienced this FO was and he may not have been familiar with any of these fields. Also we don't know the actual condition of the skipper. If I was dying I would want my FO to get me to a hospital as quick as possible but if time wasn't critical I would be happy with a rookie taking their time and diverting to somewhere they were comfortable.

The bottom line is that the flight landed safely and all ended well. For that the FO deserves great praise.

It doesn't make his actions right however but merely appropriate given his experience. If an experienced FO did that and didn't dive into Man or somewhere close I'd lynch him.

[Norman Stanley Fletcher]

Faire d'income - Appropriate is 'right' and inappropriate is 'wrong'. This is one of those few cases where the ends justifies the means and in this case the result clearly does make the FO's actions right. I am always amazed at intensely critical nature of pilot against pilot. It is usually influenced by some sort of feigned incredulity that some pilot was just not as smart as they would be. I got involved in aviation 25 years ago and have in and around it ever since in some form or other. In that time I have observed the post-incident phenomenon that pervades whenever something unusual happens.

Basically a team of 'the great and the good' is assembled to assess the pilot's actions. Over a period of some weeks, a general sense of what should have happened, given the particular circumstances, appears. If it is particularly tricky or contraversial, sim rides are arranged for some of the most experienced trainers in the business to reflect upon the different options that could or should have been taken. After much horse-trading to cater for the different professional views of the many experts ranging from manufacturers, airline managers and senior trainers, a consesus appears which is often used to hang the original pilot. Many of 'thems and such as thems' who have participated in the hanging process reassure themselves that if only they had been there it would all have been so different. I have noted another interesting phenomena whereby 'what goes around comes around'. People who are excessively critical and show no mercy are often those who most need it for some subsequent transgression they make themselves. When their big day comes, they in turn do not find that mercy forthcoming.

I personally don't care if this FO turns out to have 100 or 10,000 hours on the 737. He made the right call in that the aircraft got down safely and without injury to anyone - that is good enough for me. Instead of people bleating over whether he should have made it to Manchester or wherever, we should rejoice that a safe and sensible decision was made at a moment when any number of stupid and ill-considered options could have been.

[bacardi walla]

Bacardi Walla , You can read my posting history to see where I stand in relation to FR, I'm not one of the pro muppets or a supporter. But what you wrote is just so idiotic, it is quite clear to anyone who knows, that you are spoofer. Are you seriously trying to suggest that the company would want an emergency handled to suit their commercial schedule? Honestly, I don't know why people who have absolutely no knowledge of what they are talking about feel the need to butt in with only a half witted grudge against Ryanair. Cop on, the lot of you!

Thank you for your input. I said what I said because it has happened in the past. FACT :D

Also, in my opinion, the F/O's decision to RTB was right as many others have mentioned. I'm merely saying what RYR have been known to do in the past. How about a bird strike and no ASR filed ??

Time for this thread to move on, close even.

[Few Cloudy]

Here you all sit at your nice quiet computers discussing what a young man in an emergency could / should have done...

There he was in a once in a life time situation without the benefit of all the time you have and wanting to:

Get the ship down safely in a one man ops situation,
Ditto the passengers,
Get the Captain to where medical assistance is available.

Now a passenger reports that Derry was 15 minutes away and suddenly you are all over the FO. How the passenger knew that I don't know. In any case there is a procedure to be followed in these cases, which is practised in the sim. As someone above pointed out, it takes time to complete this and to make sure that the ship is under control and everything has been thought of in advance.

Therefore it makes complete sense to me to turn back to Stanstead while performing this procedure and planning the approach. To continue on to Derry would have been rash and probably would not have saved time anyway since the one man ops still had to be prepared.

Whether to stop on the runway or turn clear and then stop is a very small point. This is also discussed in sim sessions and was probably carried out as trained. What you certainly would not do is to change seats and taxy it right in. It is just as easy to have a car meet the ship where it is.

Long and the short of it is that the FO did his job, did it well and can now read on PPRuNe all the things he did wrong, as written by unknowledgeable critics.

Find someone your own size!

FC.

[Flying Guy]

Carmoisine summed it up best in his first post and I agree. The FO did a fine job, landed at a good, close, familiar airport, stopped on the runway as instructed by ATC (thanks for that input by the approach controller) and everybody was safe and sound.

End of story.
:ok:

[Carmoisine]

BitMoreRightRudder I'm sorry about the sarcasim, genuinely. I just get exasperated by some of the absolute ****e that appears on these threads, from people who are not usually even aircrew never mind FR employees. I know I shouldn't bight but I do. I just think how angry I would be if I had been the F/O reading this thread. It seems to be happening more and more on PPRuNe and its really taking away from the value of it. I think its a shame that Dannys proposal for a forum only for people with validated credentials never materialized.

[BitMoreRightRudder]

Thats fair enough Carmoisine and I agree with everything you say there. I certainly wasn't questioning the F/O and I hope my post didn't come across like that, just interested in the chain of events and what sort of assistance he received from ATC. Like I said my opinion has changed - set the brake on the runway and let someone else worry about the rest!

[omnidirectional737]

I have to confess that I haven't read all the posts in this thread so very sorry if this has already been said.

I was the approach controller concerned with this incident and although it really isn't any of our business, it was the decision of ATC and the emergency services including the BAA obviously, that he stopped on the runway. The main reason for this was that it gave the emergency services much more room to approach the aircraft and deal with the problem.

The pilot, as I'm sure other people have siad, did a fantastic job.

I think given the above I would now stop on the runway rather than take a RET as I think I would of done upto now.

[desmotronic]

This thread speaks volumes about the level of faith or lack thereof which experienced professional pilots have in low time FO's. Returning to base was a no brainer in this situation and if a professional first officer can't navigate a couple of hundred miles home and then land without incident then he/she shouldn't be in the cockpit in the first place.

IMHO 200 hour CPL's in the RHS of high capacity RPT jets seriously compromises safety. Here's a novel idea, how about all airline transport pilots be required to hold an airline transport pilot license...

[LRdriver II]

Here's a novel idea, how about all airline transport pilots be required to hold an airline transport pilot license...

they do... they are just frozen :E

[Sky Wave]

This thread speaks volumes about the level of faith or lack thereof which experienced professional pilots have in low time FO's. Returning to base was a no brainer in this situation and if a professional first officer can't navigate a couple of hundred miles home and then land without incident then he/she shouldn't be in the cockpit in the first place.

IMHO 200 hour CPL's in the RHS of high capacity RPT jets seriously compromises safety. Here's a novel idea, how about all airline transport pilots be required to hold an airline transport pilot license...

But the FO did navigate a couple of hundred miles and land without incident. Don't understand what you are getting at.

You can't unfreeze an ATPL until you've flown 1500 hours in a multicrew environment, therefore if you insisted on a full ATPL before occupying the RHS we'd be very short of pilots as there would be no way for people to unfreeze them.

SW

[desmotronic]

But the FO did navigate a couple of hundred miles and land without incident. Don't understand what you are getting at.

So he did, and no disrespect to him at all but so he bloody well should. Just seems to be a lot of back slapping going on for something that should be well within the capabilities of a professional pilot.
You can't unfreeze an ATPL until you've flown 1500 hours in a multicrew environment, therefore if you insisted on a full ATPL before occupying the RHS we'd be very short of pilots as there would be no way for people to unfreeze them.

Interesting, here in Oz there is no multi crew requirement far as i am aware. Local regs stipulate 1500 hrs total, 750 in command of any aircraft, 100 night plus a few other bits and pieces. Just a different system i suppose.
Tell you what though i wouldnt want to be on board with a 200 hour fo and an incapacitated skipper.

[Sky Wave]

I had my figures wrong. It's 1500hrs total time of which 500hrs must be a multicrew aircraft. So my comment still stands. You can't unfreeze your ATPL unless someone lets you into the right hand seat.

You're contradicting yourself, as in one sentence you say
Just seems to be a lot of back slapping going on for something that should be well within the capabilities of a professional pilot.

whilst in the next breath you say Tell you what though i wouldn’t want to be on board with a 200 hour fo and an incapacitated skipper.

I think you should have a little more faith in the system. The FO has been trained to fly the aircraft and will have no problem landing it without incident. If there was any doubting the FO's capabilities then the FO would not have been released to fly the line without a safety pilot in the jump seat.


SW

[BitMoreRightRudder]

You know what, in 15 years time when I have thousands of hours and a command I really hope I don't forget where and how I started out in this industry. I think a lot of people do.

Lets turn the argument around then desmotronic, which situation is more problematic in a two crew environment - a cockpit with an appropriate experience gradient from captain to F/O or two captains sat next to each other?

[SteveSmith]

One thing thats been mentioned earlier in this thread, but probably missed by everyone who thinks you should park it on the nearest bit of tarmac, is that you can't taxi a 737 from the right hand seat.

Question from a non-pilot - would it have been an option for a FO in these circumstances to switch seats and fly from the LHS, either in flight, or after stopping on the runway in order to taxi the plane to a safe place?

Sorry if that's a silly question, but I was 6 years old last time I sat in a cockpit, so I don't know these things! :O

Steve.

[alibaba]

A FO would not be trained to do that Steve. An FO is only trained in one seat which is the right hand seat. Differant for a CAPT though as he/she will be trained on both the left and right hand seat.

The tiller(stearing wheel on ground) is only on the left hand side. So the FO is not trained to use it at all, so the FO is doing something that he/she is not trained to complete. Which is not what you would want in such a situation. :=

Also you wouldn't be getting up and moving seat in midflight as nobody would have control of the aircraft and the same on the ground.

[JazzyKex]

Steve, some of Ali's reply is correct some not quite so. Each pilot is trained and tested to fly the aircraft from their respective seat. An FO from the right Capt from the left. Training Capts are normally qualified to fly from both seats so they can train both Capt and FO's, and some (very few) airlines elect to train some line Capts in both seats although only to the minimum requirement (dealing with an engine failure on TO in the sim, single eng go around and landing) in order that they can operate in the right hand seat when crewing are short of FO's.

When it comes to steering on the ground the tillers are very much dependent on what the airline ordered from the manufacturer. Many airlines only have a tiller on the left and as such their SOP's mean all aircraft control on the ground prior to line up and post landing is done by the Capt. Other airlines specified a fit with a tiller on each side and as such their SOP's have a much more even balance of conrol. On the FO's sector they will taxi as well as fly. In this case taxiing clear of the runway would pose no problem unless as has been mentioned in this particular incident the Emergency services would prefer the room around the aircraft on the runway to manoevre.

Desmo - I understand and agree that each pilot no matter what their experience level should be able to operate single handedly and as such I'm sure most operators have some form of incapacitation training and would not allow line training to be considered complete without a level of proficiency being demonstrated. However good the training and simulation is, being in an actual emergency situation is quite different. As I'm sure your professional experience has made you aware.

Considering the uneventful outcome of the incident which originated this thread I think a degree of back slapping and praise for a job well done is well deserved. We are rarely called to put into practice all we train to do and most of us realise that no matter how experienced we are, being single pilot is not high on our wish list of daily occurances.

I'm sure that when you were a mere frozen ATPL holder you would have been utterly unfazed by the events this colleague of ours found himself in and would have considered it just another day at the office. For that I commend your superior abilities and calmness.

I would also recommend that you are aware that you may be putting yourself in an uncomfartable situation by travelling with any major airline in the UK, all that I know of use 200hr FO's, so in the event of an incapacitation, you may find yourself in the very situation described here. In that case I hope the training given to the crew matches that of our Ryanair colleague as do their abilities and, and another uneventful and unpraiseworthy (lack of) incident ensues.

[OwnNav]

How's the Skipper recovering ?

[Carmoisine]

I'm sure that when you were a mere frozen ATPL holder you would have been utterly unfazed by the events this colleague of ours found himself in and would have considered it just another day at the office. For that I commend your superior abilities and calmness.

I would also recommend that you are aware that you may be putting yourself in an uncomfartable situation by travelling with any major airline in the UK, all that I know of use 200hr FO's, so in the event of an incapacitation, you may find yourself in the very situation described here. In that case I hope the training given to the crew matches that of our Ryanair colleague as do their abilities and, and another uneventful and unpraiseworthy (lack of) incident ensues.

Very well said, and much more courteous then I could have manage.

[alibaba]

Jazzykex I agree with most of what you said. :rolleyes:

Probably wasn't detailed enouth as to how you have put it. Thanks though. :O

CAPT's are trained in both seats if they complete the extra regulatory requirments as Jazzykex stated.

As to the A/C outfits with tillers. Ryanair A/C are only fitted with a tiller on the left. It does depend on airline and their requirments from the manufacturer as previously stated.

Just trying to keep it simple. Sorry. :O

[Fragman88]

Firstly, Well Done to F/O concerned.
His decisions and course of action worked.
As is the nature of the profession, all of these will be mercilessly scrtutinised and torn apart at great length by people with time and resources at hand which he did not have. Not necessarily a bad thing as we all can learn from events such as this.
This does not detract from the performance of the pilot on the scene (Remember as of the Captains incapacitation, he assumed command, as was his duty, and as a result was totally responsible for the outcomes of his actions on behalf of his A/C and passengers).
The thoughts:
Incapacitation (Both had it and exprienced it it from the other end myself) can be messy, smelly, very hazardous (pain spasm resuting in full rudder!) and always extremely stressful. The thread so far has dealt with the technical aspects only. This gentleman not only had a single crew diversion to handle, but had a very sick friend next to him, which multiplies the stress.
Finally well done to the chap concerned, plenty of people will second guess you, but you were there and made it work. I Will sit in your cabin any day (ex 744 CAPT).
Last bit, Amendment to Captain Incapacitation checklist:
1 Call for C/A assitance
2' HELP ME GET THIS SICK BASTARD OUT OF MY SEAT'
3 If in Big Airline, ensure death ( Medical assistance may be required, but given the right doctor with appropriate inducements, progression in seniority may be assured).
4 Divert to nearest suitable airport. (Bearing mind this is now P1 time, fuel is there to be burnt, and the chances of the captain remaining on the seniority list diminish both with time and the amount you have paid the Doctor---Lagos always looks good).
Well done to F/O, knowledge is not all, tempering by experience is an essential--looks like you had some:}
Good on you:ok:

[SLATS_EXTEND]

Also the Captain may not have been completly out of it and helped in the decision making.

Well done ! Not an easy day on the job.

Cheers


Concur!:ok:

[smith]

Not comparing this to Kegworth but the very experienced captain there diverted to East Midlands which is an engineering base for BMI. This was probably his designated t/o alternate but there would probably have been a suitable diversion airport closer he could have made it into in quicker time.

The fact that the wrong engine was closed down didn't help matters but it has always struck me that for commercial reasons it is best to divert to a company base and maybe this was one of the reasons this f/o RTB'd.

[captplaystation]

You are barking up the wrong tree ref Kegworth. When the failure occured in the climb out of LHR the aircraft was virtually over EMA and this or BHX would in any case have been the logical choices to land. In fact from the failure, until spooling up the "broken" but in-use engine, the engine had been pretty much at idle thrust after the wrong identification. In this instance, had for example the crew decided to divert back to LHR (just as an example) the need to re-apply thrust at a higher altitude "may" have given the time to be presented with the second ( broken) engine failing and a subsequent re-appraisal / relight. But of course that is pure congecture. Anyone taking the trouble to read the full AIB report of this accident, including ( many ignored too "expensive" )recommendations will see the causes and blame started , and finished on many other peoples/agencies doors.(Like the subsequent double shutdown glide-approach into LTN)

[OSCAR YANKEE]

Well this beeing the rumour network.......I heard that the FO is fairly new to FR but otherwise 7000+ hrs. , 3000+ on the 737, and has flown as FC on the CRJ200.

Rgds. OY

[A37575]

It has been mentioned that the FO was quite inexperienced

Regardless of the experience level of the first officer in question, as a fare paying passenger I am shocked that any airline would have an inexperienced pilot as second in command. Is the First Mate on an ocean liner "inexperienced?" I very much doubt it. Is the Second in Command of HM warships "inexperienced?" No way. So why are airlines employing inexperienced pilots on the flight deck of a jet airliner. I would have thought there would be higher insurance premiums as a penalty?

Surely the travelling public is entitled to ask why inexperienced pilots are allowed to be first officers. And surely there are enough highly qualified experienced pilots in the airline industry to be available for jobs as first officers.

[few@two]

Unfortunately there are not as many as you may think as a pilot shortage looms many airlines have pilots with only 200-300 hours total time, but would not release them to line flying without a trainer without complete satisfaction.:rolleyes:

[OSCAR YANKEE]

Regardless of the experience level of the first officer in question, as a fare paying passenger I am shocked that any airline would have an inexperienced pilot as second in command. Is the First Mate on an ocean liner "inexperienced?" I very much doubt it. Is the Second in Command of HM warships "inexperienced?" No way. So why are airlines employing inexperienced pilots on the flight deck of a jet airliner. I would have thought there would be higher insurance premiums as a penalty?
Surely the travelling public is entitled to ask why inexperienced pilots are allowed to be first officers. And surely there are enough highly qualified experienced pilots in the airline industry to be available for jobs as first officers.

Well my friend - wake up and smell the coffee. Everybody is inexperienced at some point even the First Mate of an ocean liner. Besides this is apples and carrots you're comparing - there are probably more B737 in the world alone than there are ocean liners.
Without even getting in to the discussion on whether a well trained though inexperienced ab-initio FO could be better than a experienced not so well trained FO, you as a paying customer get what you are paying for. If you want to be absolutely sure you only have experienced people sitting up front, you have just limited yourself to legacy carriers longhaul .

That beeing said, nothing is perfect in this world. The next time you call an electrician do you want an inexperienced local, or a highly experienced guy from somewhere far away where the training standards might not be what you would expect ??

Rgds.

[Final 3 Greens]

A37575

Can't get the experience without flying the line.

How do you solve this Gordian knot?

As a PPL holder, thus with some insight into the standard of pilot training, I have no problem with a well trained FO with 250 hours.

[gofer]

A37575

Apologies but IMVHO "what a load of BUNKUM.

1) When sombody get a driving license - can he drive - the right answer is probably - "In theory yes - but he/she lacks practice" - so off he/she goes alone in traffic - and if he/she survives for a number of hours then - great.

2) When sombody learns to fly it is a bit similar - youngsters sometimes go solo at 5-20 hours - but 40 hours is normal to be let free with the paperwork. Then they get experience - alone, but as often as not with others who are more experienced with them. At around 200 hours an airline may consider them - and test them in a simulator. They do it all in a simulator and then - they get let out with passengers. Note that their initial instructor might not have had more than 500+ hours !!!

3) The real difference is that next to them is a captain who is a) responsible and b) has a bit more experience. I know captains with only 1'000 hours, but that is not common. Most have 2'000+ before they make the left seat.

4) The real difference between a car and a plane is a) the simulator training and regular 6 monthly retests and having the boss next to you while you do much of the physical work.

YOUR fears are almost certainly totally unfounded - me I get more nervous when I have 2 captains with 10'000+ hours each sitting right & left or a captain and F/O with that number of hours who know each other very well - why.... COMPLACENCY......(after all they may be getting boared, lazy and even smug, especially if its not a string and sealingwax operation or long haul where the amount of critical time experience can be a joke compared to somebody driving a city hopper).

Any of you drivers care to comment :} or :uhoh: ...

Thought - would it not be most interesting and instructive if anybody could be bothered to compile a set of statistics from the accidents reported as to the number that were F/O PIC's and number of hours of the left & right hand seats at the time - ideal would also be the number of cycles flown by each at the time also and whether the other pilot tried to "take control to avert the event".

If a company is happy to trust a pilot with their multi million dollar plane, why should I not trust that they want to keep their reputation and allow them to take care of my life. The risks just crossing the road are 1'000's of times higher every day a- a logically proven statistic !!!!!

[canyonblue737]

Say your a low hours FO and this happens. You get a message from the CC that an experienced Captain is sat in the back as pax and has offered to come in and give you a hand, do you accept? Are we allowed?
Yes we are trained for this sort of thing but would it make matters easier?

what kind of question is this? of course you would bring the CA from in back forward... :ugh:

[canyonblue737]

As a fully qualified pilot, I certainly hope the FO could safely land the aircraft, even without an extra hand to move the flaps and put the gear down. I'm surprised that would even be questioned.
bingo! we have a winner. how is having the FO land the aircraft (usually happens EVERY OTHER LANDING WORLDWIDE EVERY DAY, 24 HOURS A DAY) an emergency?

[Carmoisine]

For all those that insisted otherwise, this was published in an updated document for Line Trainers by FR themselves under the heading of crew incapacitation:

5. If occupying the RHS do not attempt to clear the runway or taxi the aircraft after landing. Stop the aircraft on the runway, shutdown the engines and allow medical assistance on board.

[expatula]

that's why i think airbus SOP is good. first officers are allowed, because of the redundancy feature of the airbus cockpit, to taxi in and taxi out the aircraft off the runway.

the company where i am currently working follows 100% airbus standard. i believe this is a good company culture as first officers are given the chance to exercise their command abilities and develop their potentials for captaincy later on.

congrats to the f/o for a job well done! you can be my wingman anytime!!!

cheers! :ok: :ok: :ok: