A380 Issues

[cavortingcheetah]

:hmm:

Perhaps there are some who may allow themselves a wry smile at the following early snippet from today's Times. It seems somewhat doubtful however, that Airbus had small airlines in mind when the A380 was putting on the drawing board.

Small airlines balk at lack of maintenance for Airbus A380
By David Robertson

THE future profitability of Airbus’s flagship A380 project is under threat, as small airlines are reluctant to buy the aircarft because of a lack of maintenance facilities.
There are as yet no plans to build a third-party servicing facility for the A380 superjumbo anywhere in the world. This means that airlines ordering too few aircraft to justify building a dedicated hangar will have to rely on their rivals to do repair work and servicing.

Only a handful of airlines are building hangars capable of housing the giant A380.

Lufthansa’s facility in Frankfurt, thought to have cost up to £200 million, measures 350 metres by 140 metres and can fit four A380s or six Boeing 747s.

Singapore Airlines, Air France and Emirates are also building hangars but there are no independent repair facilities dedicated to the A380.

Some airlines might be able to use an existing 747 hangar but many of these will be too small to accommodate the A380’s 80-metre wingspan and 24-metre height.

“The lack of third-party maintenance facilities is a major problem for smaller airlines because they will not be able to guarantee getting their planes serviced,” said a consultant who has been advising airlines and airports on the issue.

“They will have to approach airlines like Lufthansa, which will charge a premium because they have a captive market. But the real problem will come if hangars are full, because then planes will be left standing, waiting for servicing, and flights will have to be cancelled. This could be very expensive.”

The consultant said that the lack of maintenance facilities was deterring smaller airlines from buying the aircraft. Airbus has sold 159 A380s and needs to sell between 250 and 300 for the $12 billion (£6.3 billion) project to break even.

However, Virgin Atlantic has delayed plans to build a giant hangar for its new A380s because of production delays to the aircraft.

Virgin has an option on a site at Heathrow to build a hangar that will service the six A380s it has ordered. The company is understood to have considered locating its A380 maintenance outside Britain because of the cost of building a facility at Heathrow, but it has now rejected this plan.

Construction of the facility has been postponed while Virgin negotiates with Airbus over delivery schedules for its new aircraft. The European consortium announced in June that serious production problems would delay deliveries by at least six months.

Virgin had expected to receive its first A380 at the end of 2008 but this is likely to be delayed until well into 2009. The company is in talks with Airbus about possible compensation.

Qantas, the Australian carrier, last week confirmed that it had been paid A$104 million (£42 million) by Airbus for delays to its A380 order. Other airlines are also expected to seek damages.

A spokesman for Virgin said: “We have got an option on a site at Heathrow but we cannot progress with it because we are waiting for Airbus to tell us about the new delivery schedules. We decided it would be better to have the facility at Heathrow because it would cost less than flying planes out to get them serviced.”

Airbus was unavailable for comment yesterday.

Flagship's frustration

Problems that have plagued Airbus’s 380 superjumbo

How to transport the wings, which are too big to fit in a cargo aircraft, from their construction site at Broughton, near Chester, to Airbus’s main factory in Toulouse, France: they are now transported by road and barge, but the Port of Mostyn in Wales had to be dredged first; environmental groups and fishermen claimed the dredging could harm the Dee Estuary


Airports’ difficulty in adapting to the A380: vast sums have been spent upgrading airbridges to allow access to the A380’s twin decks


Trucks that load the aircraft have had to be built from scratch

Airlines fear that maintenance facilities will be insufficient.

;) cc:suspect:

[chornedsnorkack]

:hmm:
Perhaps there are some who may allow themselves a wry smile at the following early snippet from today's Times. It seems somewhat doubtful however, that Airbus had small airlines in mind when the A380 was putting on the drawing board.

Trying to get statistical context - sorting the current orders by size.
Excluding the ILFC, there are 138 A380 passenger planes on order.
43 to Emirates - over 30 % to a single customer (and there have been unfavourable remarks about it)
19 to Singapore
15 to Lufthansa
12 to Qantas
10 to Air France
6 each to Malaysia, Thai and Virgin
5 each to China Southern, Kingfisher and Korean Air
4 to Etihad
2 to Qatar.

The orders of 6 or fewer per customer are 8 orders out of 13, and sum up to 39 frames - slightly over a quarter of all orders.

Are there many airlines who would like to operate a few of A380 frames, perhaps as flagships of their fleets? Boeing 747 and 747SP were bought by a fair number of small customers... flag carriers needed them!

[ORAC]

"In 2009, Qatar, which is half-owned by private investors, will move into Doha International Airport, the first completely new airport to be designed from the start for the A380. At Doha, Qatar also is constructing a new maintenance center that will have enough hangar space for two A380s and three A340s. A company spokesman said plans for non-airframe maintenance are under review and confidential"......

[WindSheer]

This means that airlines ordering too few aircraft to justify building a dedicated hangar will have to rely on their rivals to do repair work and servicing.

Umm, not quite understanding this one!! Happens all the time in the UK with most airlines, and all types of a/c!! :confused:

This sounds like another of those Boeing digs to me!!

[tornadoken]

It's a Boeing dig. The issue could arise equally with the new 747, or 787.
LH on A380 may well be priced full fare, but LH Technik offer the same product to the market as they provide to LH partner operators - so does BA, AF...any and all MRO providers. By comparison with dedicated independents the operator- maintainer may be less flexible, say to input timing, but may appear to care more because he needs the business more than the big boy does. That's why there is room for both styles of provider.

[rotornut]

Airbus superjumbo fresh delay report hits shares
Wednesday September 20, 5:40 am ET

PARIS (Reuters) - Planemaker Airbus is expected to announce fresh delays to its embattled A380 superjumbo in coming days, a French media report said, adding to woes for parent firm EADS whose shares were also hit by a brokerage downgrade.
Airbus' 12-billion-euro ($15.19 billion) program to produce a new class of mammoth plane is already overdue and triggered an EADS profit warning and management shake-up in June.

On Wednesday, a report in French newspaper Les Echos, which did not cite any sources, said Airbus could announce a delay of at least six months for its first deliveries to clients such as Air France, and only four deliveries next year to Singapore Airlines and Emirates.

"According to our information, the assembly problems at the Toulouse-Blagnac plant would not allow it (Airbus) to hold to its last pledge of delivering at least nine aircraft in 2007 (against 25 initially planned)," the newspaper said.

An Airbus spokeswoman said the report was "speculation."

"We have been undertaking a full review of the A380 program since the summer. It is not finished yet. We will communicate after the EADS board meeting on September 29," she said.

EADS shares shed as much as 4 percent to 21.82 euros before easing back to 22.50 euros in mid-morning trade.

An EADS spokesman in Germany said checks into the A380 delivery delays were not yet concluded. "There are still no results at present."

Analysts expect Airbus to announce the findings of a 100-day study ordered by new Chief Executive Christian Streiff in coming weeks.

Some expect Streiff to favor getting the bad news out of the way quickly, including a possible one-off charge stemming from delays in launching the mid-sized A350 model.

Airbus has struggled to market the A350 in the face of strong demand for rival Boeing Co.'s 787 which is due 2008, now likely beating the Airbus to market by four years.

The A380's woes stem from complications in wiring the massive double-decker planes and have sparked calls for compensation from customers, some of whom have hinted they might reconsider their orders.

Emirates has ordered 43 of the aircraft -- by far the largest order of the plane which has a list price of $300 million. It said at the weekend it had not yet considered canceling its order.

IXIS Securities analyst Lorraine Thoumyre said in a research note that she was cutting her rating on EADS shares to "reduce" from "buy" while keeping a share price target of 23.90 euros.

"The accumulation of multiple rumors and comments create a stack of presumptions which give credence to a new delay of the A380," she said.

Airbus has been rocked by the A380's woes and its fitful efforts to launch the A350.

The decision by 20-percent shareholder BAE Systems (London:BA.L - News) to sell out of the planemaker has not helped sentiment, either.

Russian flag carrier Aeroflot said on Wednesday it would go ahead with plans to buy the Boeing 787 but that it also planned to buy the Airbus A350 later

[-8AS]

It's now on CNN.

[blueskiesup]

They've jut laid off 50 contractors at Hamburg and are going to close(temporarily) two of their hangers. Loads of electricians going( surplus to requirement)at Toulouse.

[ORAC]

BBC - Airbus confirms more A380 delays

The parent company of European planemaker Airbus has confirmed there will be a further delay in deliveries of its flagship A380 super-jumbo. EADS said the hold-up was again linked to wiring problems, the cause of an earlier delay announced in June.

The 12bn euros ($14bn; £8bn) project is already a year late and company sources suggest the latest delay could mean customers waiting a further six months. EADS said it would give more details on its delivery schedule in four weeks.

In Paris, EADS shares were down 1.7% in morning trade.

"Although the company's assessment is still under way, continuing industrialisation challenges with the wiring of production aircraft have been identified and are being tackled," an EADS press statement said.........

[Shitsu_Tonka]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5366350.stm

The parent company of European planemaker Airbus has confirmed there will be a further delay in deliveries of its flagship A380 super-jumbo...... (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5366350.stm)

http://www.theaustralian.news.com.au/story/0,20867,20413654-23349,00.html

Airbus insiders told The Australian that Qantas would possibly not get its first aircraft until the first quarter of 2008.

[kuningan]

AP is reporting that Emirates may cancel their A380 order:

http://biz.yahoo.com/ap/060921/emirates_airbus.html?.v=4

....although the AP headline is more spin than substance - all Emirates are saying officially is that:

"Earlier Thursday, Emirates airlines released a statement saying it had not yet had discussions with Airbus on a new delivery schedule and had no plans to withdraw its long-standing order."

Whatever one thinks of the plane, this delay - surely to be expected - and managed (much) better in a project of this size is doing it no good at all. And yes, I do remember how early 747's couldn't start their engines if the wind was in the wrong direction......

[vapilot2004]

Given the A380s EIS slippage of 18 months now - or possibly more :eek: - I am still not entirely convinced that mere ~ w i r i n g ~ issues are at fault here. :confused:

Airbus' somewhat secretive nature will keep us all guessing. Time will tell.

Meanwhule there's also good news for EADS:

Lufthansa will accept a few A330s (5) for an interim solution while they await delivery of the big bus. The airline has also ordered 30 of the narrow body A320 series for a combined total at list prices of a little over 3 billion US for a vote of great confidence from Europe's No 2 airline.

[threemiles]

you may image how cheap the A330s and A320s for Lufthansa were

[Mudfoot]

Just the first few paragraphs from washingtonpost.com today:

Airbus A380 superjumbo faces new delay

By Tim Hepher
Reuters
Thursday, September 21, 2006; 9:03 AM



PARIS (Reuters) - Airbus revealed new delays for its troubled A380 superjumbo jet on Thursday, blaming a repeat of wiring installation problems which have already pushed the programme a year behind schedule and hit future profits.

Bowing to pressure to either confirm or deny reports of another logjam in the twice-delayed airliner project, Airbus parent EADS (EAD.PA) said it was too early to say how long the latest delivery delay would last or how much it would cost.

Shares in EADS fell by as much as 3.9 percent, slicing 750 million euros off the value of Europe's top aerospace group. At mid-session in Paris they were down 2.3 percent at 22.3 euros.

The 12-billion-euro ($15 billion) programme to produce a new class of mammoth plane has already been hit twice by problems in fitting each jet's 500 km (300 miles) of wiring, culminating in a 2 billion euro profit warning and management shake-up in June.

"Although the company's assessment is still under way, continuing industrialisation challenges with the wiring of production aircraft have been identified and are being tackled," EADS said in a statement.

"Consequently, from what is known today, there will be further delays."

Well, hell. :ugh:

Cheers, y'all. (and weeping and wailing)

[Baron rouge]

What about EADS just wanting to pay little money for BAe's 20% share in Airbus... just leaking bad news at the right time:E

[ORAC]

The buy-out share price was agreed a couple of weeks ago by independent arbitration - at which point it was BAe tthat announced to the the press that they expected EADS to have to announce a further slip.......

[lowerlobe]

You would really be getting a bit nervous if you had shares in airbus at the moment !!!!!!

[QFinsider]

Or when the market finally realises that low yield J* international is taking four aircraft from high yielding Qf mainline maybe our share price will reflect the actuality of inept management!

[weasil]

NEW YORK (Reuters) - Boeing Co. <BA.N> announced new orders for 47 planes from unidentified buyers on Thursday, worth more than $4 billion overall, including 16 for its new carbon and titanium 787 Dreamliner.

The order pushes the U.S. planemaker's tally to 632 firm orders so far this year, well ahead of European rival Airbus <EAD.PA>, which has confirmed only 222 firm orders this year, but picked up a prestigious 35 plane order from German carrier Lufthansa <LHAG.DE> on Wednesday.

http://www.boston.com/business/articles/2006/09/21/boeing_takes_47_new_jet_orders_worth_more_than_4_bln/


(I wonder if this has anything to do with the EADS announcement?)

[weasil]

When was Qantas originally supposed to get the 380? Have they had to do construction work at Mascot in order to support this behemoth?

[Golf Charlie Charlie]

You would really be getting a bit nervous if you had shares in airbus at the moment !!!!!!

On the other hand, an opportunity for the Russians to jump in and buy some more EADS ?

[punkalouver]

Emirates and most others will keep their orders. What else can they get that is so big. It is just a perfect opportunity for them to get them even more subsidised the taxpayers. After all isn't that what Airbus is all about? Teutonic and Gallic pride no matter what the cost.

[F900EX]

Contrary to what Airbus think... This will have a big negative effect in 2009/2010.

Heads need to roll for this and and any job losses are as a direct result of bringing the product to market far sooner than appropriate.

Current A380's are constantly going tech.

[tornadoken]

Launching 777 in 1990 United forced Boeing to “treat us at a new level of respect (to) work with us to deliver something(never)delivered before(:a)service-ready airplane (that)works” K.Sabbagh,21st.Century Jet,Scribner,96,P53: that author had "access".
Very grizzled Ppruners remember concrete tie-downs on a couple of dozen 747-100 gliders, Everett, 1970. That got fixed and the type transformed all our lives. Don't gloat about A380, just wait for the same outcome.

[vapilot2004]

Very grizzled Ppruners remember concrete tie-downs on a couple of dozen 747-100 gliders, Everett, 1970. That got fixed and the type transformed all our lives.

Kept them off their tails that did since the Pratts that should have been hanging off the wings were still short on power. The fact that the 747 was a bit on the heavy side of design goals (sound familiar?) is another story. :p

Some 747-100 milestones:

Dec 1965 - Letter of Intent signed with Pan Am
Sep 30,1968 - Rollout
Dec 17,1968 - Scheduled 1st Flight - delayed
Feb 9, 1969 - 1st Flight
Dec 1969 - Scheduled EIS commitment to Pan Am - delayed
Jan 21, 1970 - EIS with Pan Am and 1st NY-London service
Jul 16,1970 - 1 million passenger mark passed

There were deliveries of 92 747-100s in 1970. Over 1400 of the original jumbo jet have been delivered thus far.

The amazing part to me is that not unlike Concorde, another revolutionary machine of the time, engineers utilised not much more than paper, pencils and :eek: slide rules. :eek: to design these aircraft.

Chasing the Sun (http://www.pbs.org/kcet/chasingthesun/planes/747.html)

Sorry for the sidebar - now back to the Super Jumbo. :)

[misd-agin]

Read "The Sporty(Sporting?) Game" by John Newhouse. Covers the history of the widebody airline developement.

First 747's had concrete blocks hanging from the pylons. Pratt was late with the engines and the planes would fall on their tails without some weight on the pylons.

Part of the reason Pratt was late was the 747 was too heavy and they needed more power.

[taffman]

A380 pull out from Hamburg and all work sent to Toulouse?

[Taildragger67]

Lufthansa will accept a few A330s (5) for an interim solution while they await delivery of the big bus. The airline has also ordered 30 of the narrow body A320 series for a combined total at list prices of a little over 3 billion US for a vote of great confidence from Europe's No 2 airline.

What, so ordering more of a type you've already got lots of is a "vote of great confidence" ?! Rather misleading in terms of the 380 delay. All it shows is that they can continue to churn out a proven type (at the other end of the model range).

Emirates are hardly likely to tin their order, given the investment they've already made on it (unless Seattle made it so attractive for them to do so with a 748 pitch... ???). Likewise any of the other large early-orderers. Too much money spent at this stage. Boeing couldn't buy them all back to the 747 fold. What will be interesting, is what the residual value profile looks like in a year or two.

[blueskiesup]

Taffman, not quite correct. Hamburg shut till next september, for a rethink of approach.

[vapilot2004]

A380 Scheduled Announcement Could Come As Early As Friday
French newspaper LaTribune, citing unidentified company officials, says Airbus may make an announcement about A380 delivery schedules as early as Friday -- this according to Bloomberg.

Airbus is in the midst of big problems with its new A380 program. Just how big no one really knows, and Airbus, of course, isn't talking. But from all external indications, it's big. LaTribune reports there are internal rumors Airbus may end all A380 program-related activities at its Hamburg, Germany plant.

You may remember all the shakeups with company leadership earlier in the year -- mucky mucks with EADS, Airbus' parent company, getting fired for selling stock, Airbus leadership replaced when the first round of A380 delays were announced, etc., etc. And just last week the European planemaker told its customers to expect even more delays because they were having trouble with the plane's 300 miles of wiring.

After Airbus announced that second program delay -- in less than three months -- EADS said they hadn't had enough time in looking things over to determine exactly how much the latest delay would impact the program, time and dollar-wise. Bloomberg estimates cost overruns might total $5.5 billion before everything is said and done; company earnings might be hit for $1 billion a year.

Following Airbus' surprise announcement last week, EADS told the circling media wolves to expect more information about Euros and schedules in around four weeks. With this latest report from France, it now looks as though someone lit a fire over at Airbus.

Perhaps Korean Air Lines' announcement they would seek compensation from Airbus for the delays has prompted company leadership to move a little faster, and hammer out whatever issues besides wiring might be interfering with getting this program airborne.



No matter what the news and numbers are, an official announcement would be progress, would it not ?






"EADS told the circling media wolves" ? Non ? :D

[vapilot2004]

Meanwhule there's also good news for EADS:

Lufthansa will accept a few A330s (5) for an interim solution while they await delivery of the big bus. The airline has also ordered 30 of the narrow body A320 series for a combined total at list prices of a little over 3 billion US for a vote of great confidence from Europe's No 2 airline.

What, so ordering more of a type you've already got lots of is a "vote of great confidence" ?! Rather misleading in terms of the 380 delay. All it shows is that they can continue to churn out a proven type (at the other end of the model range).


Yes, you've got me there, however I still think that there is a small 'by association' benefit.


Emirates are hardly likely to tin their order, given the investment they've already made on it (unless Seattle made it so attractive for them to do so with a 748 pitch... ???). Likewise any of the other large early-orderers. Too much money spent at this stage. Boeing couldn't buy them all back to the 747 fold. What will be interesting, is what the residual value profile looks like in a year or two.

I'm with you - Emirates (and Qatar and SIA and Qantas and LH and ...) have married the A380 - there can be no turning back - they are just going to have to wait for the honeymoon. :)

[MarkD]

don't know if this has been mentioned elsewhere - AB have completed wake vortex testing for 380:
Details of the key elements of the guidance for ICAO Heavy, Medium, and Light aircraft categories:
Vertical Spacing
Vertical spacing in all cases to be the same as for other aircraft
Evidence and data from encounter flight tests at cruise altitude, supported by airborne LIDAR measurements, have demonstrated that the A380 wake characteristics are equivalent to those of the B744 (chosen as the benchmark aircraft) for this phase of flight. Therefore, the current ICAO vertical separations are confirmed to be appropriate for A380 operations.
Horizontal spacing en-route
En-route horizontal spacing to be the same as for other aircraft
Holding
Vertical spacing to be the same as for other aircraft
Approach / Landing
No wake constraint for the A380 as a following aircraft
A380 followed by Heavy = +2nm extra to existing ICAO separation (6 nm absolute distance)
A380 followed by Medium = +3nm extra to existing ICAO criteria (8 nm absolute distance)
A380 followed by Light = +4nm extra to existing ICAO separation criteria (10 nm absolute distance)
Departure following A380
No wake constraint for the A380 as a following aircraft.
Same radar spacing as for Approach / Landing
Or, for time based operations: Heavy = 2 minutes; Medium, Light = 3 minutes

[40KTSOFFOG]

Am I really, really stupid or is this not significant!! I read this in the paper today and winced!! In light of all the delays and comment I am amazed that this has not recieved more attention on this site.

[mini]

Forget the politics of this thing for a moment.

I was wandering around the A380 production facility a few months back - at 1630 on a Friday. The place was almost whacky it was so (completely) empty.

I bumped into some Welsh guys over on contract later that night, they were really amused by the lack of organisation and the overall laid back attitude to it.

Great aircraft, just sounds like the wrong management... :sad:

[vapilot2004]

From the Houston Chronicle:

PARIS — Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd. said Monday it received tentative information on the length of delays to the Airbus A380 superjumbo, as the board of Airbus parent EADS prepares to give the green light for a revised delivery timetable.

"We have been contacted by Airbus on the likely shape of a new delay," Virgin Atlantic spokesman Paul Charles said in a telephone interview without elaborating.

EADS is expected to approve the new timetable as soon as Tuesday.

Some airlines had indicated that cancelations of their orders could not be ruled out after EADS confirmed Sept. 21 that deliveries of the 555-seater superjumbo will be pushed back a third time. Dubai-based Emirates, the biggest A380 customer, said its 45-plane deal was "up in the air," and Virgin Atlantic had said the delays could affect its orders for six superjumbos.

Virgin Atlantic's Charles would not say whether changes to the order remain a possibility in light of the new information received from Airbus.

"We're still waiting for them to confirm some detailed schedules," Charles said.

Spokespeople for Emirates, Lufthansa and Air France declined to comment on whether the airlines had received any new information from Airbus on their orders.

But a person close to Airbus, who asked not to be named because the talks are confidential, said the plane maker is presenting the new production schedule to customers in order to gauge potential compensation claims and their impact on EADS profits.

European Aeronautic Defence and Space Co. shares closed 1.2 percent lower at euro22.40 (US$28.41) in Paris. The stock plunged 26 percent on June 14 after Airbus announced a second six-month A380 delay and euro2 billion (US$2.5 billion) profit warning.

The crisis led to the sacking of Airbus boss Gustav Humbert and EADS co-CEO Noel Forgeard _ who remains under investigation by market authorities after it emerged that he exercised stock options at a profit of euro2.5 million (US$3.2 million) just weeks before ordering an internal probe into the delays.

EADS is tightening its control over Airbus and is expected to buy BAE Systems PLC's 20 percent stake in the plane maker. BAE shareholders vote Wednesday on a management recommendation to go ahead with the euro2.75 billion (US$3.5 billion) sale.

German magazine Der Spiegel reported Monday that German politicians are discussing whether the government should buy a stake in EADS if its largest shareholder, Stuttgart-based DaimlerChrysler AG, sells all or part of its 22.5 percent stake.

Without citing sources, Der Spiegel reported that state-owned bank KfW could buy the EADS shares with privatization proceeds. A government spokesman described the report as "speculation" but declined to comment further.

DaimlerChrysler and Lagardere SCA announced in April that they were each selling 7.5 percent of EADS, leaving the German carmaker with a 22.5 percent stake and the Paris-based defense and media company with 7.5 percent. The French state owns 15 percent stake of EADS.

[Flightman]

Am I really, really stupid or is this not significant!! I read this in the paper today and winced!! In light of all the delays and comment I am amazed that this has not recieved more attention on this site.

Its certainly got ZERO attention at LHR. Maybe thats because anyone who knew the significance of these figures left, under the restructuring program? Apparently ex- retail staff (who appear to be the new blood brought in by BAA) don't get this. Yet. :=

[lomo]

Latest news over the wire....10 month delay, interesting times ahead.


Ananova:

More Delays For Airbus Superjumbo

European planemaker Airbus has dealt another blow to airlines expecting delivery of the new A380 superjumbo passenger jet.

It has told both Emirates and Virgin Atlantic that there will be another 10-month postponement.

The company's parent EADS warned last month that there would be a delay - the third - but has only now released details.

It means that Emirates will not now receive its first planes until August 2008 at the earliest.

The Dubai-based carrier said the situation was "very serious" and would now be reviewing all its options.

It is the biggest customer for the £200m plane, with 43 on order.

Sir Richard Branson's Virgin has orders for six.

Wings for the 555-seat aircraft, the biggest in the world, are built by Airbus UK at its facility in Broughton, north Wales.

Problems with the wiring of the ultra-sophisticated A380 have caused the delays.

The first postponement announcement - in June this year - led to a management shake-up at Airbus.

The A380 was first unveiled in January 2005 at a ceremony at Airbus headquarters in Toulouse, southern France, attended by Tony Blair.

The plane first flew a few weeks later and its first non-commercial passenger flight was safely completed this summer.

Some 16 airlines to have ordered A380s. Other carriers who will be buying the plane include Qantas and Air France.

[tezzer]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5402922.stm

[Taildragger67]

From Bloomberg News

Emirates to `Review Options' on New Airbus A380 Delay (Update1)

By Will McSheehy and Andrea Rothman

Oct. 3 (Bloomberg) -- Emirates airline, the largest customer for Airbus SAS's A380, said it will ``review all of its options'' after being told delivery of its first superjumbo will be delayed an additional 10 months to August 2008.

``This is a very serious issue for Emirates,'' spokesman Mike Simon in a phone interview today, reading from a statement written by President Tim Clark. ``We've started a review to see how we can minimize impact on our expansion plans.''

The company is ``not talking about compensation at the present time,'' Simon said, though the issue may be pursued ``at a later date.'' It now expects to receive four A380s in 2008.

Emirates, the biggest Arab airline, ordered 45 of the 555-seat A380s and in June said it will receive its first delivery in October 2007. That's a year later than originally scheduled when the Dubai, United Arab Emirates-based carrier signed for the planes.

``These are very strong words for Emirates and catastrophic news for Airbus,'' Doug McVitie, managing director of the Dinan, France-based aviation consulting firm Arran Aerospace, said in a phone interview. `For Emirates this is a matter of prestige, not of penalties. I'm hearing it's increasingly likely Emirates will defer or cancel half its order, perhaps in favor of Boeing's passenger 747-8 planes.''

Airbus, controlled by European Aeronautic, Defence & Space Co., first disclosed construction delays in 2005, then announced further delays June 13 when it slashed its delivery forecast for 25 planes in 2007. Airbus can probably deliver just four A380s next year, less than half the number it predicted in June, three people with knowledge of the plans said Oct. 1.

Firm Orders

Airbus has 159 firm orders from 16 customers for the plane, which has cost at least $13.5 billion to develop. The A380's delays have angered airline customers, who are demanding compensation, and have also prompted the departure of two top executives and the demotion of the executive who ran the A380 program.

Boeing Co., the world's No. 2 commercial aircraft maker, is counting on the new 747-8 passenger plane to help it fight off competition from the A380. Planning for the passenger-version configuration of the plane will be finalized in mid-2007, the Chicago-based company said Sept. 25.

EADS shares have lost 31 percent of their value this year, and Toulouse, France-based Airbus is trailing Boeing in orders for the first time in five years.

Singapore Airlines Ltd., scheduled to be the first carrier to operate the A380, yesterday said it is waiting for details from Airbus on further delays. In July the Asian carrier said it may order nine more of the superjumbos, taking its total to 19. Its first A380 delivery is currently due in December, more than six months behind the initial schedule.

Airline Frustration

While no customer has said it will cancel its order, airlines have begun expressing their frustration. U.K. billionaire Richard Branson, chairman of Virgin Atlantic Airways Ltd., indicated Sept. 27 that the airline will stick with its order for six A380s only if the plane offers the passenger load and range promised.

``We would like the plane if the plane is delivered as originally promised,'' Branson said. ``We'll have to wait and see if Airbus can overcome these problems.''

Airbus has told Virgin Atlantic its A380s will also be subject to further delays, spokesman Paul Charles said in a phone interview today. The airline will say more ``this evening or tomorrow morning,'' he said.

Airbus blames the A380 delays on the complexity of installing 300 miles of wiring in each of the double-decker planes. The wires are bundled in harnesses that are strung through the aircraft, controlling in-flight entertainment, lights, air conditioning and the plane's operating systems.

Airbus allowed each customer to customize the entertainment systems, adding to the challenge of getting the correct wire in the right place.

[Globaliser]

Report of Streiff speech (http://blog.seattlepi.nwsource.com/aerospace/archives/107302.asp), including:-A380

First things first: An A380 production and delivery schedule our customers can count on. I will cut straight to the chase. As we have informed our A380 customers over the past few days:

· The first A380 will be delivered to Singapore in October 2007.
· In 2008 we will deliver 13 A380s (to Singapore, Qantas and Emirates)
· In 2009, 25 A380s will leave the Final Assembly Line
· The industrial ramp-up will really be achieved 2010, when we shall deliver 45 A380s, including the first freighters.

This means another delay of over one year on average. It is very disappointing that we find ourselves in this situation, but we need to be realistic with ourselves and our customers. It is the most reliable schedule we can deliver today following our in-depth review of the A380 programme.Which presumably means no airline service until about Christmas 2007?

[vapilot2004]

So no one is publicly questioning the fact that wiring is the alleged cause of a now 24 month delay ?

EADS shareholders should demand an inquiry. I would think that the entire town of Toulouse could be re-wired in that amount of time. :ugh:

[seacue]

Wouldn't back to the drawing board be a likely first step before restarting wiring?

No matter how many people are assigned to doing the actual wiring, three wires won't go through a hole only large enough for two.

[TURIN]

Pratt journo on BBC Radio (FiveLive) today stated that "the A380 had made one tentative test flight and has since been grounded"

Class!:ugh: :rolleyes: :D

[Gauteng Pilot]

One keeps hearing about the wiring, but what about the wing not meeting the predicted strength in the destruction tests ??

[ikea monster]

Big White Elephant springs to mind: And Mr Boeing is quitetly building the B74/8 !!!! Interesting times ahead. !!

Note: Not many U/S Airports are having a facelift to accomadate the A380 - could an indiscriminate " Concord" action be underway !!

[vapilot2004]

Big White Elephant springs to mind: And Mr Boeing is quitetly building the B74/8 !!!! Interesting times ahead. !!
Note: Not many U/S Airports are having a facelift to accomadate the A380 - could an indiscriminate " Concord" action be underway !!

SFO (www.flysfo.com/about/press/releases/SF-04-48.pdf) (PDF), LAX (http://www.janes.com/transport/news/jar/jar060109_1_n.shtml), MIA (http://www.miami.com/mld/miamiherald/business/14670913.htm),DFW (http://sev.prnewswire.com/airlines-aviation/20050724/NYSU00324072005-1.html), JFK (http://www.usatoday.com/money/biztravel/2005-01-16-a380-side_x.htm) are now or will be ready by the time the wiring is done. These are just a few airports I know about - billions are being spent on airport improvements around the country.

[ZAGORFLY]

Launching 777 in 1990 United forced Boeing to “treat us at a new level of respect (to) work with us to deliver something(never)delivered before(:a)service-ready airplane (that)works” K.Sabbagh,21st.Century Jet,Scribner,96,P53: that author had "access".
Very grizzled Ppruners remember concrete tie-downs on a couple of dozen 747-100 gliders, Everett, 1970. That got fixed and the type transformed all our lives. Don't gloat about A380, just wait for the same outcome.

I dont understand those guys that criticize Airbus for delays of such completley new machine. Would be better a belly landing? or a crash? In the same chair position at EADS I would welcome delay then incidents, and those air carrier managers that look into this only on the losses of profit could go to hell in my opinion.
As tornadoken said the 747 changed the history the Concorde the air travel untill her first and only one crash.

[cockpitvisit]

Accodring to this Bloomberg article (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aSGkIYVa9IZk), the problem is largely caused by incompatible CAD software used in German and French offices. This made it nearly impossible to propagate changes made by the German team to the French virtual mock-up and vice versa, and so there were several different design versions in use simultaneously.

[ironbutt57]

Looks to be lack of standardization with software, and connectors/installation tools..inevitable when so many "cooks" are stirring the broth..not as much a design fault..an organization fault..the idea to shift all to toulouse while disappointing, might solve this type of issue...lets see what happens with the 787, this could be interesting as well...:bored:

[Ignition Override]

Vapilot2004.
Interesting observation about the non-computer design of the original 747.

As for old versus newer technology, I told a young gentleman boarding our plane that the machine has no computers to fly it, and he said : "Oh that is encouraging" :uhoh: .
:D

Will Airbus continue to have two executives in each upper management job?
One was raised more on schnitzel or spaetzle, and the other partly on crepes? How can this produce efficiency?

[Taildragger67]

Accodring to this Bloomberg article (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aSGkIYVa9IZk), the problem is largely caused by incompatible CAD software used in German and French offices. This made it nearly impossible to propagate changes made by the German team to the French virtual mock-up and vice versa, and so there were several different design versions in use simultaneously.

So it was designed by a committee. Now I understand why it looks like a camel rather than a racehorse... :}

Don't you think they would've figured this out before the first billion euros had been spent??!! "Oh, une moment, sil vous plait monsieur Fritz, our ordinateurs don't seem to be able to parle with each other very well, zis picture you've emailed me is upside-sous".

Gauteng Pilot,

Shows why you should listen to Radio 4!! :8

[18-Wheeler]

So it was designed by a committee. Now I understand why it looks like a camel rather than a racehorse... :}
Don't you think they would've figured this out before the first billion euros had been spent??!! "O

Not that it's definitive, but the documentary I saw on the assembly of the first one had the engineers trying to attacth the tailcone to the main structure of the tail. And it was a good 5mm or so out in diameter and so wouldn't fit without a lot of grunting and pushing and stretching.

That really surprised me, and perhaps now I know why ....

[Slopwith]

No doubt ultimately it will be taxpayers who cover this balls up. Even if BAe are out, the stake of the French Government in EADS will no doubt ensure that our euros and pounds continue to support French arrogance. A Maginot line of design-didn't see that one coming from behind!

[the_hawk]

would explain german VAT rising from 16% to 19%, too

funny thing is, plans to withdraw A380 production from Hamburg to Toulouse stir unrest in Germany as well as the same plans, giving A320 production from Toulouse to Hamburg in compensation, make the French unhappy :hmm:

[Taildragger67]

Not that it's definitive, but the documentary I saw on the assembly of the first one had the engineers trying to attacth the tailcone to the main structure of the tail. And it was a good 5mm or so out in diameter and so wouldn't fit without a lot of grunting and pushing and stretching.
That really surprised me, and perhaps now I know why ....

Yes I recall that one too... in another segment the fin had been built in Germany and the lead engineer on the fin (who looked like he'd get barred from entering a pub in the US... ) tripped to Toulouse to see it get mated to the fuselage. When they went to connect the cable for the fin-tip camera... short by an inch. :{

Will be interesting to see what happens when they get their tide tables for the Garonne a bit awry!

[GAZIN]

This is a sad mess indeed, but they are just about to build the last A300 after a run of 30 odd years, so in the end 12 months wont seem too bad.
From the little I have heard from someone at EADS, there have been some major issues involving IT at the design stages, that have caused some very expensive, in terms of time & money, problems. Not just cabin wiring.
I hope we will be able to look back at this as a glitch in an otherwise successful program.

[potkettleblack]

Dickie made a good point on range and pax numbers. Be interesting to see if the A380 actually stacks up to what Airbus originally said it would whenever it comes on line.

[Baron rouge]

No doubt ultimately it will be taxpayers who cover this balls up. Even if BAe are out, the stake of the French Government in EADS will no doubt ensure that our euros and pounds continue to support French arrogance. A Maginot line of design-didn't see that one coming from behind!

Bloody right slopwith, bring back to life the COMET, the trade mark of superiority of British design and safety in aviation:D

[Dan Air 87]

Being a cynic, does this mean that the delays will mean that the World's airports will be ready in time to take the A380? I recall that Airbus were talking about stretching the A380-has this plan now been scuppered or will it be raised once the wiring problems are resolved?

[vapilot2004]

Quoting myself:
So no one is publicly questioning the fact that wiring is the alleged cause of a now 24 month delay ?


After reading more about the CATIA situation the true scope of the problem becomes very clear. The difference between this issue and the mere physical wiring of the aircraft is exponential.




To have the collective work of engineers and skilled labour (on the flagship no less) dashed by poor oversight is just pitiful.

Project management should be skinned alive for this.

[offa]

I recall that Airbus were talking about stretching the A380-has this plan now been scuppered or will it be raised once the wiring problems are resolved?
Latest rumour is that they will be producing a SHORTENED version (so that the wiring will fit the aircraft?)
:hmm:

[pubsman]

See
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/world/5412378.stm
for latest on "knock-on" effects of Airbus announcement.

[ELondonPax]

I am neither a pilot nor an engineer. Which will no doubt be obvious by my question. Here goes.
Most speculation suggests that the main problem is the difficulty of fitting the wiring harnesses into the plane. I would assume (but is this a stupid assumption?) that the amount of wiring needed for the freighter versions will be much less than the passenger versions.
Would there not be some benefit for Airbus to use the next year to fill some of the freighter orders - and so enabling production lines for fuselage, wings, engines etc to keep moving. That also would get some cash in the bank on those sales. Meanwhile, they continue the redesign of the wiring and resume production on passenger versions in a year or so.
I know there must be some basic reason why my idea is daft, or they’d be doing it already. Are the models under construction too far down the line to be swapped to freighter versions or something basic like that?

[goshdarnit]

BBC reporting RR are suspending production of their Trent900 (destined for the A380) whilst saying "the exact implications are being assessed".
I can't remeber the last time I heard anything positive reported about the 380 program, these guys must dread opening the papers in the mrning.

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/5412378.stm

[NutLoose]

That will account for all the AN124 activity at EMA there was 3 parked on the freight apron the other day, after they left another arrived and one more is in today, they are obviously shipping the completed engines out to the factory before the suspending of the line.

[goshdarnit]

Be interesting to see how P&W/GE (Engine Alliance) react - I think that EA had just about the majority of the orders, so potentially more to lose if the airframe production does not reach projected quantities.

[Hamid_27]

hey all

ELondonPax (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=12482) vbmenu_register("postmenu_2892336", true); i think you idea would be good, maybe you should work for airbus, lets js see what people reply to your comment, it seems as though there is less wiring in cargo crafts but i guess they want to solve the problemo first before worrying about their financial side, and start working on on the airlines orders for singapore and ek, which are not cargo.

regards,

Hamid_27

[OneWorld22]

That's dreadful news and I feel sorry for the RR team who have worked so hard on developing this fabulous engine.

Have a look at the Flightglobal website where they published the speech given by the Airbus CEO to staff on Tuesday. The transcript of the speech was leaked and was not meant for public consumption

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/10/04/Navigation/177/209674/Internet+bloggers+publish+entire+transcript+of+Airbus+CEO+Ch ristian+Streiff's+frank+speech+to.html


but the production process has one, big flaw – one weak link in the chain: that of the design of the electrical harnesses installation in the forward and aft fuselage.



To be clear: This is the weak link in the manufacturing chain, this is the reason why ramping up the production is hampered.

[ARINC]

The current state of play at Hamburg

1 MSN007 Cabin fit ready by ummmm...... (Pale Purple in first class by the way)

2. MSN005 idle....all wiring to be removed and aircraft completely rewired. Next year sometime. :mad:

3. MSN003 Thousands of hours of work still outstanding, no paperwork no planning, no hope. :ugh:

4. 60 Electricians fired yesterday...surplus to requirement :confused: 60 more to go by Christmas

5. 1 Aircraft to be delivered next year...:}

[cludow]

The Freighter wing is completely different to the PAX wing (eg one common part number between variants in one of the major wing structural assemblies comprising well over 160 pieces) so it's not possible to do a conversion.

Airbus UK is miles ahead of the Europeans in the build programme (and in terms of management competence) but guess who will suffer most if the program stalls?:ugh:

[rotornut]

Airbus Chief Quits

By TSC Staff
10/6/2006 1:37 PM EDT

Airbus CEO Christian Streiff quit Friday, the Associated Press reported.
The two chief executives of Airbus' parent company, the European Aeronautic Defence & Space group, accepted Streiff's resignation, the AP reported. The news comes just days after Airbus admitted that production of its A380 superjumbo jet would be delayed for a third time, slashing almost a billion dollars a year off operating profit for the next four years.

EADS co-CEOs Tom Enders and Louis Gallois have agreed that Streiff should leave the company, a person close to Airbus told AP, several days after he threatened to resign amid a dispute over the transparency of financial and other reporting by Airbus to EADS. Airbus has been under the gun ever since rival Boeing gained widespread airline acceptance for its more economical 787 jetliner.

German weekly WirtschaftsWoche reported earlier that Streiff had offered his resignation in a letter to Gallois.

"We deny categorically that Mr. Streiff is to leave Airbus," spokeswoman Anne de Crozals said, AP reported.

http://www.thestreet.com/_yahoo/newsanalysis/transportation/10313602.html?cm_ven=YAHOO&amp;cm_cat=FREE&amp;cm_ite=NA

[F900EX]

If it is true I am not surprised. The fiasco at Airbus will atract a lot more casualties.

[Hawk]

See also discussion here
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?p=2892616#post2892616

[goshdarnit]

MODS, if any of you may read this post, I am surprised at your choice to move this thread into Airlines, Airports, Routes as the topic is none of the aforementioned.
RR decision to suspend work on the Trent900 may ultimately mean nothing, however by the same token it may well be seen as a watershed event in the A380 (and ultimately Airbus) business. I would have thought that this thread could have attracted some interesting and informed comment, were it given the chance in the appropriate forum.

Way to go guys. :ugh:

[vapilot2004]

From Randy's Blog - Pres. Marketing, BCA:

Staying focused
The production issues in the news concerning the A380 program have led to the usual questions for me and many others here at Boeing. As can be expected, in the media there's some intense interest in the question of "what does this mean for Boeing?"

Well, I've said this before, in response to reporters' questions, and in many forums around the world: It doesn't mean a whole lot. As I see it right now, there is no direct benefit for us coming from the Airbus announcements on the A380, particularly in the near-term. We have a very sound backlog and full production lines - and we're quite pleased already with the response from the market to our 747-8.

The very large airplane segment, by the way, is a very small piece of the bigger whole. Which is why we didn't pursue a direct competitor to the A380 in the first place.

At the most fundamental level, what truly benefits Boeing is strong competition in a healthy commercial airplanes industry. Let's remember, Boeing and Airbus share many of the same customers and suppliers in a relatively small industrial "ecosystem." Our industry, the traveling public, and the global economy all do better when that ecosystem contains healthy, competitive companies creating value day in and day out.

Yes, it's a tough time right now for EADS/Airbus. But they'll get through it. And we expect them to be strong competitors for a very long time.

As for BCA, we are staying focused on the needs of our customers, on the execution of our business plan, and on delivering on our promises.

[criticalmass]

Mae West remarked "Too much of a good thing is wonderful!". The Airbus A380 is a little too much of a good thing, and for Airbus it is going to prove anything but wonderful.

If they are not very careful, it could break the company. Even if it doesn't, any further delays may see it become the biggest aviation white elephant since Howard Hughes' "Spruce Goose". American steelmaker Andrew Carnegie also remarked "Pioneering don't pay!". Airbus are discovering the truth of his words in a very painful manner.

[brian_dromey]

Airbus main problem here seems to be that it was overambitious i what it promised to Airlines. It then had to redesign the airframe and compnents numerous times. The problem with the A380 was not that it was too large, but that it offered too much inniovation and options to airlines.

I think airbus got stung by the advanced technology and rushed development programme. Even by Airbus standards the programme was ambitious and lacked redundancy. Things went wrong, there was not enough time to fix them so deliveries got pushed back. Its not that the A380 is a bad aircraft, its that the A380 team are bad palnners. They just didnt see that because it works in the lab, doesnt mean it will work on teh ramp. Unlucky boys.

Boeing, I note, is carefull not to throw rocks...the 787 could just as easily have these problems....Im not saying it will, but it could. If I remember the 747-400 had a lot of preductin problems, and delays. Some also had to have extra strengthning put in on the SUD floor, if Im correct. It can happen.

Airbus should have promised less(or been "more sincere" as one CEO put it(Singapore, I think).

[172driver]

Doesn't sound like he's quit - yet. Both Der Spiegel (German, usually reliable) and FT (via MSNBC, see link) report rumours and that he is 'threatening' to do so. Wouldn't surprise me too much, though.....

[hoggsnortrupert]

Just wondering? In a previous thread I read that the A-380 has an issue with the U/C cracking.
I have only ever seen the machine on the television, to my eyes the U/C track looks very small in comparisim to the overall wing span.
Hence to me it looks like a bit out of kilter?
Just my thoughts, maybe some one more enlightened could elaborate.:oh: :oh:
Chr's
H/snort.

[Flight Safety]

There's also this article (from yesterday) where EADS co-CEO Tom Enders questions the viability of the A350 XWB project due to ongoing A380 problems. The article must have been written right before Streiff left Airbus.

http://www.atwonline.com/news/story.html?storyID=6680

[Mary P.]

I just returned from a business trip to France.
French mainstream media is very very quiet about this Airbus mess. One thing that was shown was a brief interview clip of an Airbus worker's union rep who complained that Airbus asked their employees to work more to make up for the A380 delay. He said that any more pressure from Airbus would actually be counter-productive and might even result in a strike.
Now that's all Airbus would need: a strike. That would really be the last nail on the coffin.
A few questions need to be asked though:
- Was the A380 program motivated by pride or by sound business judgment?
- Although European in nature, the French play a huge part in EADS. The problem with the French is well known. Can the French be trusted by airlines worldwide? I'm talking about work ethics here.

[11Fan]

Disregard my previous post

[Loose rivets]

Since the Spruce Goose?....The Brabazon comes to mind.

Get the bit about the wing-span, 35' more than a 74.



http://unrealaircraft.com/classics/brab.php

[TRIM-RUN]

Rumour in Monaco this weekend @ ISTAT is the Dreamliner will soon be announcing a 6 to 12 month delay. We can couple that with the experience of Boeing in the same position four years ago as Airbus and prefering not to blow their own horn now. He is going to Peugot we were told in a bar, but its a rumour network right ??:suspect: :suspect:

[11Fan]

Trim-Run,

What happened four years ago that you speak of?

11Fan

[TRIM-RUN]

11fan.. Four years before Bill was in trouble, now he riding high, fine... why is he not going for the kill on the 380 ??? even with the latest delays. Contract engineering and manafacturing outsourcing of an airframe is the norm...ish and has its pit falls. This leaves the manafacturer at the mercy of the outsourcing contracts that were probably signed with the best intentions, but no real capability to deliver.

[11Fan]

Trim-run

Perhaps I am missing the point, and if so, my apologies. The way I understood your post (and not to put too fine of a point on it) sounds a little more like what happened in the 1997-98 time frame where Boeing assembly lines in Everett and Renton had to shut down for weeks because of parts shortages.

That being the case, may I suggest that the roles may be reversed this episode.

For instance…

http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9067-2392263,00.html (http://business.timesonline.co.uk/article/0,,9067-2392263,00.html)

Nevertheless, and as I have suggested in other posts, it's not really sportsmanlike to kick the other guy when he is down. The shoe could just as easily be on the other foot, and payback… well, you get the idea.

Besides, there's this glass house and stones thing that comes to mind.

Anyway, I am confidant that Airbus will fight their way back and I am looking forward to seeing an A380 on final to LAX. A pair of Qantas 747-400's pass overhead each morning. If they put the A380 on that route, it's going to be a pretty sight to see.

Regards,

11Fan

[Loose rivets]

NY Times snippet

PARIS, October 7 — Airbus, which is struggling with delays and cost overruns in the production of its A380 superjumbo jet, was caught in the awkward position late Friday of having to deny media reports that its new chief executive has resigned.

The executive, Christian Streiff, had just joined the company in July to turn the plane manufacturer around.

[barit1]

Accodring to this Bloomberg article (http://quote.bloomberg.com/apps/news?pid=20601109&sid=aSGkIYVa9IZk), the problem is largely caused by incompatible CAD software used in German and French offices. This made it nearly impossible to propagate changes made by the German team to the French virtual mock-up and vice versa, and so there were several different design versions in use simultaneously.

Sounds strangely like the muckup that caused the demise of the Fairchild Dornier (http://www.aiaa.org/aerospace/Article.cfm?issuetocid=215) 728 / 928 three years ago. Configuration control was a shambles; suppliers were building parts that were obsoleted by under-the-table design changes. :sad:

[Freeway]

BBC News 24 reporting that an announcement is imminent and that Airbus has indeed lost its second CEO this year.

[Taildragger67]

This has been on the Beeb website since this morning (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6033063.stm):

Reports say Airbus boss may quit

Mr Streiff is said to want more funds to turn around the A380 project
Shares in aerospace group EADS fell 1.5% on Monday, amid speculation that the head of its troubled Airbus subsidiary is planning to resign.
Reports say Airbus chief executive Christian Streiff wants to stand down in a row over how much money the firm needs to recover from major delays.

With its A380 superjumbo now put back by two years, Mr Streiff is said to want more cash to tackle the matter.

Airbus has denied that Mr Streiff is to leave the company.

EADS said the reports of his imminent departure were simply speculation.

French backing

French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin defended Mr Streiff at the weekend, saying he saw no reason for him to resign.

The A380 has become a major problem for Airbus

Mr Villepin said Mr Streiff was "doing tremendous work".

The opinion of the French government is important, because it owns 15% of shares in Franco-German EADS.

Mr Streiff became head of Airbus in July, after the planemaker first informed customers that deliveries of the new A380 would be delayed because of a wiring problem.

The German edition of the Financial Times said on Monday that if Mr Streiff resigns he is likely to be replaced by EADS co-chairman Louis Gallois.

It speculated that Mr Gallois would continue in both jobs.

The development of the A380 has been blighted by delays.

Airbus has sold 159 of the $250m (£134m) jets to 16 airlines, many of whom are already demanding penalties for late delivery.

The airline currently plans to cut $2bn in costs from 2010 onwards, a move that has caused concerns in France, Germany and the UK, where the bulk of its manufacturing operations are located.



"Christian Streiff" - appropriate name...

[Cahlibahn]

Now confirmed that CEO Christian Streiff has fallen on his sword.

[Taildragger67]

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6035357.stm
Airbus parts company with Streiff

The chief executive of troubled plane maker Airbus has resigned following a day of speculation that he was to go.

Christian Streiff is to be replaced by Louis Gallois, co-chief executive of Airbus parent company EADS.

Mr Streiff had been trying to push through reforms to recover from major delays in the production of the Airbus A380 superjumbo.

He took over as CEO in July, replacing Gustav Humbert who was ousted along with EADS co-CEO Noel Forgeard.

Mr Gallois is a former head of French state railway company SNCF.

He will combine the top job at Airbus with his current role as joint head of the Franco-German defence group EADS.

Wiring problems

Outgoing Mr Streiff, 52, had been a former executive of French building materials group Saint-Gobain.

With its A380 superjumbo now put back by two years, Mr Streiff was said to want more cash to tackle the matter.

Mr Gallois was formerly head of SNCF

French Prime Minister Dominique de Villepin defended Mr Streiff at the weekend, saying he saw no reason for him to resign.

Then, Mr Villepin said Mr Streiff was "doing tremendous work".

The opinion of the French government is important, because it owns 15% of shares in Franco-German EADS.

The development of the A380 has been blighted by delays.

Airbus has sold 159 of the $250m (£134m) jets to 16 airlines, many of whom are already demanding penalties for late delivery.

The airline currently plans to cut $2bn in costs from 2010 onwards, a move that has caused concerns in France, Germany and the UK, where the bulk of its manufacturing operations are located.

[Oshkosh George]

Surely this is a reflection of the A380 delays,and is surely temporary,and makes economic sense?

[Lucifer]

I am not sure why people seem to think that this is so momentous a decision - with just in time production, it makes no sense to produce something that ultimately requires storage and warehousing costs, tying up working capital. We know that the A380 is still delayed, and RR have surely reached a point where they are confident that staff and resources are better used elsewhere for a year or so.

There must be thousands of Tier 1, 2 and below suppliers who have made the same decisions!

[rotornut]

Emirates May Cancel Some A380 Orders
Friday October 13, 6:17 am ET
Dubai-Based Airline Emirates Says It May Cancel Some A380 Orders if Further Delays Arise

SINGAPORE (AP) -- The president of Dubai-based airline Emirates said Friday the carrier could cancel some of its Airbus A380 orders if there were more delays beyond those already announced by the European aircraft maker.
"If there is a further delay -- our first delivery is now set for August 2008 -- there may be cancellations down the line," Tim Clark told Dow Jones Newswires in an interview Friday.

"We cannot wait forever but at this point there is nothing that comes close to the A380 as far as seat capacity" is concerned, Clark said.

Clark said Emirates, which with an order for 43 of the aircraft is the biggest customer for the superjumbo, is "angry" with the Toulouse, France-based Airbus but is sticking with the plane for now.

"I hope Airbus puts their house in order," he said. "We have invested a lot in ground facilities so we have to stick with the order for now."

Airbus earlier this month said the highly anticipated launch of the A380 would be delayed for another year.

The latest production holdups, which leave the A380 program two years behind schedule, were caused by problems with the installation of the 300 miles of wiring aboard each plane. Airbus has received 159 orders for the world's largest passenger jet from 16 customers.

Clark said Emirates may order five to seven of the 777-300s made by Boeing Co. to make up the capacity shortfall caused by the A380 delay. He said the airline hasn't discussed compensation with Airbus yet.

[ManfredvonRichthofen]

I wonder to what extent Airbus could have limited the damage from all this by simply communicating effectively with its customers, rather than leaving them entirely in the dark over what's been going on.
Some of the issues facing the A380 are at least understandable. The way the company appears to deal, or indeed fail to deal, with its customers is not.

Anyway, I for one hope Airbus can dig itself out of this hole.

[Taildragger67]

I think Clark's point is that they're effectively stuck with it - he's telling Airbus that if they (Emirates) hadn't spent so much in infrastructure, they'd have already pulled the order, but there comes a point where the cost equation goes the other way.

What it does do, is explain why the order book has largely stalled - those carriers which can afford the non-airframe spend have already signed up; those that can't, haven't. Hence it seems to me that further orders (or lack thereof) have less to do with the cost of the aircraft itself than with related costs.

That said, it does seem curious that the spend already made on making things A380-ready, could not be applied to other large aircraft (748??) (clearly other than things like sims and cabin training mock-ups). One wonders how many A380 sims EK must have ordered already... and if any are already in Dubai?

What a mess.

[Mudfoot]

"Amsterdam, 13 October 2006 – EADS today acquired from BAE Systems its 20 percent stake in Airbus for € 2.75 billion. This value was determined by an independent expert during the put option process which was launched by BAE Systems in June 2006. EADS paid in cash from the existing resources of the Group. EADS is therefore now the sole owner of Airbus."

Well, it's about time - get it all under one umbrella at a bargain-basement price. Now, how do we pay for the assets?!? :confused:

Cheers, y'all.

[ORAC]

Just a bit of a b*gger that there'e such a struggle going on over the ownership of EADS itself. What with the Russians 'n all..... :ouch:

[take-off]

i know this is going off the thread so appologies, but if i was a uk worker id start worrying bout my job, what with french/german majority control...you can just see where jobs will go in the end, may not be now, but what with the mess airbus seems to be in , give it a couple of years or so, you can see the wing building being transfer to spare factory capacity that there have in the continent.. again apoologies for doom mongering, but think anyone with a brain can see a lot of troubleshooting ahead for this company..:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

if posted in wrong thread then apoologies

[MercenaryAli]

Buy Boeing Fly Safely :O

And "Amsterdam, 13 October 2006 – EADS today acquired from BAE Systems its 20 percent stake in Airbus for € 2.75 billion. This value was determined by an independent expert during the put option process which was launched by BAE Systems in June 2006. EADS paid in cash from the existing resources of the Group. EADS is therefore now the sole owner of Airbus."


this money belongs to the long suffering British Taxpayers !!!

[Mary P.]

Airline choices:
On one hand buy airplanes from the French.
On the other buy airplanes from the Americans.
DUH! How tough is it? Airlines worldwide are going through an education process right now. You just can't trust the French.

[vapilot2004]

I wonder to what extent Airbus could have limited the damage from all this by simply communicating effectively with its customers, rather than leaving them entirely in the dark over what's been going on.
Some of the issues facing the A380 are at least understandable. The way the company appears to deal, or indeed fail to deal, with its customers is not.
Anyway, I for one hope Airbus can dig itself out of this hole.

This has always been a major concern with Airbus - too :mad: secretive. This leaves them in a position of often having to deny rumours until the facts come to light and then they are forced to 'admit'. :( A more forthcoming approach would be refreshing.

Takeoff, I would hope UK jobs will remain - your government gave up at least 1/2 billion pounds for Airbus, did they not ? That must count for something.

[take-off]

i dont know about that vapilot, you just have to look at the mess that once was MGROVER...look at the money poured into that , thousands lost their jobs....

[787FOCAL]

:E
Airbus' German Workers Threaten Indus Action - Report
Associated Press Newswires 10/15/2006
Copyright 2006. The Associated Press. All Rights Reserved.




BERLIN (AP)--Employees at Airbus in Germany will stage strikes if the aircraft manufacturer imposes any "unilateral cuts," their chief representative was quoted as saying Sunday.

Airbus is preparing a restructuring drive amid fallout from a new delay to the flagship A380 superjumbo. German officials have pushed for anticipated cost and job cuts to be shared fairly among Airbus' European sites.

"If there are unilateral cuts even at a single plant, we will open the torture chambers in solidarity at all the German facilities - in other words, strike," chief employee representative Ruediger Luetjen was quoted as telling the weekly magazine Focus in a preview of a report to be published Monday.

During a visit Thursday to the Airbus plant in Hamburg, its largest in Germany, new Airbus Chief Executive Louis Gallois sought to reassure employees, stressing no decision on any job cuts had yet been made.

However, he added, "this doesn't mean we will not have to make tough decisions."

[W.R.A.I.T.H]

like a house of cards..to hell will the entire business go if they allow Russians to gain 10%, and this is not helping one bit :suspect:

W

[Taildragger67]

Takeoff, I would hope UK jobs will remain - your government gave up at least 1/2 billion pounds for Airbus, did they not ? That must count for something.

That, mate would involve some logic. This is now what the French and Germans think of the Brits and they don't give une/ein hoot about the British taxpayer.

[aeulad]

Just seen one of the beasts in Addis Abbaba doing hot and high testing, truly spectacular!

Regards

Mike

[knma'91]

My two cents, Airbus should have not rush the 380 out then they would not have this problem. Not to bash on airbus that much but really; almost a two year delay, they must have really screwed up over there. Also I don't think it is all wiring problems and yes I am aware of the people quiting and firing.

[rotornut]

Singapore Air could cancel Airbus order-report
Wed Oct 18, 2006 2:58 AM ET

PARIS, Oct 18 (Reuters) - Singapore Airlines could cancel an order for nine Airbus A380 superjumbos if there are excessive delays to its delivery, French newspapers reported on Wednesday.

"If the deliveries are too far away and take place at a moment during which we do not need them, we could indeed cancel them," said Bey Soo Khiang, senior executive vice president of the airline, was quoted as saying in La Tribune.

Airbus, the aircraft maker controlled by aerospace group EADS has not given Singapore Airlines a precise schedule for all the deliveries, La Tribune said.

A Singapore Airlines spokesman told Reuters: "The comment quoted in the French media refers only to the option that exists in the Purchase Agreement to cancel deliveries that are delayed. There has been no decision to exercise any cancellation rights under the Agreement. We therefore can't rule any options in or out at this time, which is the position we have maintained since the delay was announced."

Airbus could not be reached for comment.

The order for nine A380s comes on top of a firm order of 10 aircraft signed last year by the airline, the world second largest by market capitalisation, La Tribune noted.

Airbus has revealed a string of internal problems which have led it to delay the first deliveries of its superjumbo A380 aircraft.

Singapore Airlines said on Tuesday it had spent $360 million on interior design for its new aircraft including first-class seats that are nearly 1 metre (40 inches) wide.

[akerosid]

NB - this possibility refers only to the nine recently ordered, NOT the ten originally ordered.

What interests me most is what will happen to the A350XWB order, if Airbus keeps delaying it. I guess they have A330s to bridge the time until delivery, but even still, it doesn't do to upset them on two consecutive major orders.

[411A]

It could well be, akerosid, that Airbus is in a tad more difficulty with the A380 than the details released already...:uhoh:

[atakacs]

assuming the huge late delivery penalties i would guess that SQ will get the 380 at a very very interesting price... I would be surprised that they don’t keep at least some...

[ACMS]

mega flop:ok:

[Rockhound]

And I would venture to suggest that SQ is getting the A330s free.
Rockhound:ok:

[ORAC]

Emirates have sent in a team of auditors (http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/10/17/Navigation/177/209974/A380+crisis+Emirates+sends+in+auditors+to+assess+new+A380.ht ml)to confirm what possibility there is of any further slippage. I presume the other customers won´t be far behind...

[WHBM]

Emirates have sent in a team of auditors to confirm what possibility there is of any further slippage.
I don't know what the precise procedure is at Airbus, but elsewhere in industry, when you have a multi-million supply contract in place (and this is a multi-billion one) then you will have your own engineers and surveyors, or indeed a team of them, in place at the manufacturer's facilities during the course of construction to verify what is going on, be close to the programme, authorise any progress payments, and indirectly make sure that what you are being told is correct. You don't just want to get to delivery day and be told by the supplier "Um ...... surprise !"

If you think that T5 at Heathrow has been built without a whole group of BAA-employed engineers and construction professionals seeing that every step of what the construction contractors are doing is on plan and going right ...... think again !

So where have SQ's (and the other customers') teams been over the last years ?

[phil2]

well when will the A380 come to MAN do you think?
any ideas

[AnEviltwinEr]

mega flop:ok:


Could be, could be... But mind you that they said that about the B747 too, you know. And that one is.. Well... A mega success now. :ok:

-AnEvilTwiner

[FougaMagister]

Singapore Airlines could cancel an order for nine Airbus A380 superjumbos if there are excessive delays to its delivery, French newspapers reported on Wednesday.

... and come to regret it in a few years when they realise they still need the extra capacity but can't get a launch customer discount anymore! Then again, what would they do with the first example (not included in this possible cancellation)?

Quite a contrast with the positively chilled out attitude of the Lufthansa CEO, who said last week that despite the delays to A380 deliveries, the airline was still considering ordering more of them, and that such problems were "to be expected" with projects of this nature...

SIA just want more compensation $$$$ methinks.

Cheers :cool:

[panda-k-bear]

Mary P, I don't understand your point - it seems a bit silly, really doesn't it? Would you rather buy a BMW or a Buick? Would you reject the BMW because it isn't American? Just beacuse something is American doesn't make it the only choice, does it? What a bizarre way of looking at things.

As for SQ - looks like posturing to get either earlier delivery slots for their additional 9 or more compensation for their additional 10, really. At the end of the day, they need aircraft of that size and the 747-8I just isn't big enough for them (or "sexy" enough for them, come to that - image is everything after all!)

[Taildragger67]

Last time i checked, Airbus was an european company...not french...:E

In name only, mate. A few sops to those who also counts les rosbifs as foes (or at least have had at some point in their histories), but locating HQ in Le 5th Republique wasn't the result of bits of paper drawn from a hat. It's the old Aerospatiale infrastructure with a few hangers-on roped in because the French knew that after the Mercure, even their treasury wouldn't have been able to cope with the A300 failing.

Why do you think it's been (and will continue to be) run by French men - when maybe getting in an unrelated outsider (from wherever) might just be the appropriate way to clean up the current mess?

Sure, Boeing has always been run by yanks, but one look at the performance of their respective stockmarket indices would tend to suggest a rather deeper talent pool in the US. After having gone through three CEOs in six months, a reasonable, independent Board should be casting the net rather wider than they appear to have.

And no, this is not a dig at Airbus aircraft, more a comment on the corporate governance (or apparent lack thereof) at the 'European' enterprise. And the Netherlands HQ is a tax wheeze.

[Andy_S]

Now they need to sell 420.
http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/business/6067540.stm

[vapilot2004]

First profitable A380 superjumbo will now be the 421st sold, Airbus says
By Richard Blackden

Bloomberg News

Airbus, the world's largest maker of commercial aircraft, conceded today that the chances of making a profit on the 555-seat A380 model slipped years into the future because of cost overruns and production delays.

The planemaker will reach the breakeven point in the program with the delivery of the 420th A380, according to the latest analysis, compared with 270 aircraft in a 2005 business plan, Airbus said today in a report posted on the Web site of parent company European, Aeronautic Defense & Space (EADS).

Airbus has so far received orders for only 159 A380s and customers, angered by the delays, have threatened to cancel some contracts. Under current planning, Toulouse, France-based Airbus will deliver only 84 of the planes by 2010, compared with the 159 aircraft estimated as recently as June, with a total operating loss in the period of $6 billion.

EADS said Oct. 3 that the A380's first delivery is now scheduled for the fourth quarter of 2007, a year after the most recent plan and the third postponement in 16 months. The delays, first disclosed in June 2005, have prompted the departure of two top executives. Airbus estimated as recently as mid-2004 that the A380 would be profitable after 250 deliveries.

The A380's lifetime deliveries will total 751 aircraft, unchanged from a 2005 forecast, Airbus Chief Financial Officer Andreas Sperl said in the Web site report. That compares with 1,000 A380s that Airbus expected to sell over the model's half- century lifecycle in May 2004.

Airbus risks airlines making operating-cost comparisons with Boeing's smaller 787 model, which will be going into service about the same time, said Hans Weber, president of San Diego-based Tecop International, a consulting company.

Tecop has estimated Airbus will sell 496 A380s, including 43 freighter versions, through 2025, and "since we did this study in 2001, we think there are indications the number will be smaller," Weber said. The A380 is designed to serve routes linking large hub airports, while the 787 will allow more so- called point-to-point routes between less populated cities.

"There's only a relatively small number of routes in the world where hub-to-hub flying makes sense," Weber said. "That number has not increased, whereas the number of point-to-point flights has increased."

The A380 delays have carved "huge holes out of our resources," and "we have to take cost-cutting measures to compensate for this," EADS Co-Chief Executive Officer Tom Enders said at an aviation conference in Berlin today. "We don't want the A380 to be the last model we build. We want to keep making new airplanes."

The planemaker will centralize purchasing, seek more supplies from lower-cost countries, streamline and contract out component shipments and work to reduce spending on services, Airbus Senior Vice President of Financial Control Harald Wilhelm said in a separate presentation on EADS's Web site.

The German division of Airbus said Oct. 17 that it reduce the workweek, cut 14 percent of its temporary workforce and give employees who work overtime extra time off instead of additional pay in response to the A380 production delays.

Airbus will receive a "grace period" of one year if it can't repay German government loans on time because of the production delays, the Economy Ministry said in a written response to an opposition party question that was obtained today by Bloomberg News.

Shares of EADS in Paris fell 0.1 percent today. The stock is down 34 percent this year.



Analysts seem to have widely different opinions on the future sales potential of the super jumbo. The major issue will be CASM numbers which can only be attained with any accuracy during actual in-service use. The post-EIS experience will also be telling regarding dispatch reliability and related to CASM, the A380's route profitability. Good numbers here combined with a healthy world economy should surely allow the A380 programme to at the very least break even within the next 20 years.

My own opinion is that Airbus needs to get cracking on the A350 in short order if they intend to remain competitive with Boeing in the coming decade.

[Jeff Stryker]

Airbus woos Israeli airlines

By Zohar Blumenkrantz

European aircraft manufacturer Airbus is offering unprecedented package deals to El Al, Israir and Arkia in an attempt to woo them away from American company Boeing, TheMarker has learned.

The three Israeli airlines are each separately comparing the offers of Boeing and Airbus as part of their short- and long-term programs to upgrade equipment. Each company is planning to invest $300 million to $500 million.

One of the benefits Airbus is offering concerns fuel consumption. High-ranking officials from the European manufacturer provided the airlines with exact calculations of projected fuel consumption and attendant fuel costs. Airbus is prepared to commit to these projections and pay Israeli companies fines if fuel costs exceeds them.

Moreover, Airbus is ready to buy back the planes at the end of a specific period of time, to be agreed upon between the companies in advance. The manufacturer is also willing to award generous support packages to train pilots and maintenance personnel.

Airbus wants the Israelis to purchase its A-330 model, which is readily available and in supply, as well as its forthcoming A-350 model. Boeing is offering its new 787 model.

El Al sources acknowledged that the airline is negotiating with both companies, but had no more comments to make.

Arkia commented: "The company is indeed looking to equip itself with planes as part of its new strategic plan."

Israir also acknowledged it is looking into several options.

[bobmij]

yes, but not at tuppence ha'penny - which is the most they seem to think they should pay for anything (pay rises included)!

[barit1]

20 years ago Harry Stonecipher at Long Beach offered the MD-80 at cheap lease rates to the airlines - large TWA and AAL orders pulled the MD-80 program out of the fire.

But they were installing warmed-over JT8D's at a time Boeing went with a modern engine in the 733, and fuel prices were a BIG issue.

[punkalouver]

Big Deal! Airbus Customer Goes With Boeing For Long-Haul Planes

Wed, 01 Nov '06
TAM Orders Four 777s... Instead Of A340s

In what amounts to a major coup for Boeing, Brazil's TAM Airlines announced late Tuesday it has firmed up plans to acquire four Boeing 777-300ER airliners, with purchase options on four more airframes.

The Seattle Times reports the deal is worth approximately $1 billion at list price... but the significance of the order isn't about money. Rather, it's the fact a loyal Airbus customer has defected to the American planemaker for its long-haul needs, foregoing Airbus's four-engine A340.

TAM -- which before now has never ordered from Boeing -- is also Airbus's largest client in Latin America.

"The Boeing Company is pleased to be working with TAM, Brazil's largest airline, which flies both domestic and international routes," the company said in a news release. "Successful conclusion of on-going negotiations would result in the introduction of Boeing 777-300ER jetliners into the TAM fleet -- currently comprised of only Airbus A319/320s and A330s -- by the middle of 2008.

"TAM Airlines would become the first Latin American carrier to operate the popular 777-300ER," the planemaker added.

TAM's decision comes days after Emirates announced it will cancel its orders for 10 A340s. The carrier has said it plans to replace those orders with, you guessed it, 777s.

The 777 has soundly trounced the A340 in the orders column the past year, as carriers seeking a long-haul aircraft have opted for the more fuel-efficient plane.

"As one of the newest 777 jetliners in service, the 777-300ER has consistently demonstrated best-in-class reliability and unmatched fuel efficiency," said John Wojick, vice president, sales, Latin America and the Caribbean. "The performance by the 777-300ER will enable TAM to successfully serve passengers on long range routes at lower costs."

[punkalouver]

http://www.flightglobal.com/Articles/2006/12/04/Navigation/179/210965/ILFC+to+defer+its+Airbus+A380+order+until+at+least+2013%2c+d itching+freighter+variants+for+passenger.html

[jeff748]

And... so???
Why not throw us a positive bone for once, 'Punk? :}
'8

[L337]

jeff748:

This is the Rumours & News section of PPruNe. The man has posted news. I am sorry that you do not like the news that he has linked. but why attack the man?

Play the ball not the man.

[sec 3]

Surely not Kitely?:ok:

[vapilot2004]

Passenger versions should gain several much-needed slots now. :ok:

[jeff748]

Do you mean " Thou shall not ever use speedbrakes, or else..." Kitely?:ouch:

Schurely NOT!

P.S.
'37 :E ...see your PM's.

[punkalouver]

Here is some good news for the aviation industry.

http://www.marketwatch.com/news/story/lufthansa-buys-boeing-airbus-long-haul/story.aspx?guid=%7B7E0D1DD2-7616-43C4-A5C8-B219C9230081%7D








:D Play the ball not the man:D

[ORAC]

So that´s 9 more firm orders for the A380, 6 more options and a possible 6 more on top of that. Helps counteract the doom and gloom around the programme a bit...

BBC: (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/business/6196279.stm) Singapore boost for troubled A380

Singapore Airlines is to buy another nine Airbus A380 jets, despite heavy production delays to the super-jumbo.

The airline, which already has an order for 10 A380s, said the deal included an option to buy six more of the planes. The order will come as welcome news for European planemaker Airbus, which has been hit by delivery delays to its flagship A380 project.

Singapore Airlines said it also planned to buy 20 smaller Airbus A320 aircraft, in a deal worth $1.33bn (£675m). The airline said the narrow-body A320 planes would be used by its regional carrier Silk Air. The firm, which is expected to take delivery of its first heavily-delayed A380 jet in late 2007, added that it planned to lease 19 A330 aircraft from Airbus.

On Tuesday, Thai Airways said it was considering ordering six more double-decker A380 aircraft, following compensation talks between it and Airbus over delivery delays to its outstanding order for the plane. "Airbus has proposed a discount for the purchase of six more A380s. That is one of the options we are considering for the compensation," said Thai Airways president Apinan Sumanaseni......

[Doug the Head]

While most airlines cramble for cover and think short term, SIA probably aquired those additional A380´s for rock bottom prices and they clearly have the long term picture.

If the A380 fails to live up to it´s expectations then the losses/risk for SIA will be within limits, but if it really takes off then they got themselfs 9 extra jets for a very good price.

It´s called a win-win situation!

[ORAC]

PARIS, Dec 21 (Reuters) - Australian airline Qantas ordered eight more A380 super jumbo planes from EADS subsidiary Airbus, taking its total order for the delay-hit 550-passenger plane to 20, Airbus said on Thursday.

It follows a decision by Singapore Airlines on Wednesday to order nine additional A380 planes.

Qantas also ordered an extra four Airbus A330-200 jets......

On the basis of catalogue prices, the A380 order represents over $2.4 billion and the A330-200 jest some $550 million but Airbus has been offering to supply additional A380 planes at a discount instead of paying penalties for delays.

"The A380 is clearly the most suitable aircraft for Qantas to meet passenger traffic growth on our dense long haul routes," Qantas chief executive officer Geoff Dixon was quoted as saying at a signing ceremony in Sydney....