Qantaslink Gazumps Alliance: 717s to Mt Keith!

[Capn Bloggs]

The cleaning lady told me today that QL is sending 717s to Mt Keith soon! Must be to show BHP what they missed out on when they picked the light-weight F@kkers...:{

[ebt]

Hmmm, would it be possible to do? I would be interested to see it taking off with a full load in the middle of summer. As reliable as the cleaning lady may be, I'll believe it when I see it. From what I understand the BAe's were the optimal for this route and I would think it would be unlikely that the 717 can match that performance.

[flitegirl]

Isn't that the reason Qantaslink is still operating a 146 over in the west.... because the 717 is not suitable for Mt keith?

[dodgybrothers]

bloggsy, bloggsy, bloggsy. Nice semi wind up, tell the whole story now hey?

[Capn Bloggs]

Isn't that the reason Qantaslink is still operating a 146 over in the west.... because the 717 is not suitable for Mt keith?

Well, that's what we have been told in the past...perhaps it's not the case?!

Dodgy,
All I can reveal at this stage is that The TERMINATOR doing the first trip (spring gets wound up tighter and tighter)! :E := :ok:

[Kanga767]

Women always say that it isn't the size that counts, its how you use it. Alternatively, if it's always limp, it doesn't matter how big it is...:O

K

[F/O Bloggs]

EBT,

The 717 will outperform the fokker, surely.

[cunninglinguist]

The U turn at the threshold at Leinster should be interesting :confused:

[dijon moutard]

bloggsy
Flap 15 takeoff performance in hot and high conditions is quite impressive on the "flying dutch clog".
when mr fokker designed the f100 wing he made one of the best wing designs for lift/performance/simplicity ; nothing still comes close to its design today with nil leading edge devices.
the wing is still covered by design patents.

cheers
dijon moutard:ok:

[Capt Basil Brush]

"The U turn at the threshold at Leinster should be interesting"

Cunning, are you referring to the 717, or F100 being able to turn around on the 30m RWY?

I am not sure of the 717's turning radius, but from what I found the turning radius of the F100 is 20.07m. About 2m more than a 146. (I think)

That should not be a problem.

[Capn Bloggs]

Basil,

It would be interesting to get a copy of the Mt Keith RTOWs for the F@kker and compare with the super hairdryer (146-300/507 donks).

717 turn radius at max tiller; 20.1m! Depth of hole in pavement caused by inside wheels during said turn..20.1m!:{ Depth of holes in pavement as pilots "place" 717 on the spot to stop by the end of the runway...20.1m!:eek:

What are the F@kker's tyre pressures?

Cunning,

717s not going to LST...yet!:E

[Woomera]

Well chaps, who knows the facts, I dont, but a fairly well informed birdie tells me that Alliance has got the gig at a price that is, well, amazing.

But then I am only a mod so who has got the real goss.:ok: ;)

[Capn Bloggs]

W,
Since you mention
Alliance has got the gig at a price that is, well, amazing.

...in part because their pilots are employed under slave labour conditions... allegedly using unintended interpretations of the CAO 48 Exemption...:suspect:

[AN CSO]

So what is BHP missing out on? The B717 going U/S every second day and an aircraft that can’t carry the required loads, I’m sure BHP are going to miss that. With the Fokker’s they will get there and back every day. Both Skywest and Alliance have operated their F100’s with very high dispatch reliability, can the same be said for the B717.

To give you an example of how bad the B717 reputation has got, I was in Alice Springs a few weeks back and noticed a B717 parked on Bay 1 with engine cowls open. I asked the refueller (they always know what’s going on) and his comment was “it had a vibration problem” he then went on to say “they (B717) are always going U/S and they use the 146 to do the rescue flights”

With regard to performance, looking at the data (FAA charts) on the Boeing site for the B717, on a 30ºC at Mt Keith, the take off weight on a dry runway, no obstacles is 45000kg. Using the empty weight of 30617 kg (listed in section 2 of the Boeing data), add on 750kg for crew/catering etc gives an operating weight of 31367 kg. With 109 pax (equal to max F100 load) at 100 kg each (including bags) gives a payload of 10900 kg.

So we have OP WT 31367 kg + 10900 kg payload = 42267 kg ZFW. Based on the MTOW of 45000 kg, there is 2733 kg for fuel. Total distance from Mt Keith to Perth is 373 nm. Using average TAS of 420 kts and using 2500 kg per hour gives a flight fuel of 2220 kg. Adding VR of 10%, 222 kg and a 30 mins FR of 1000 kg gives a total fuel required of 3442 kg. Therefore there is a short fall of 709kg in fuel, looks like 7 pax will have to stay behind!

The charts on the Boeing site don’t go above ISA + 15, so I can’t work out 35 º or 40 ºC days, but based on the above data the B717 payload would be very restricted.

So once again what is BHP missing out on by not using the B717????

What slave labour conditions?? Care to back that up with FACTS! The Alliance pilots I know only work 3-4 days per week and average 500 - 600 hours per year. Doesn't sound slave labour to me.

[Capn Bloggs]

AN CSO,

oops, I touched a nerve there I think!

Unless the Alliance pilots are paid for only part-time duties, their pay is the lowest by far in the jet business. The term "conditions" means either work hours or pay. Unless they have enough time off to go and do another job to earn more money, then their rate of pay is slave labour.

Skywest have (you say) good dispatch reliability because they have jets sitting around doing nothing. Take yesteday morning's ZNE as an example. Jet broke: get the spare! Fortunately for the shareholders, QF run all their jets at max effort the whole time. So what if you have a few breakdowns here and there? Didn't I hear XR u/sed a f100 in Bali some tiem back?

No argument about the 717 vs F100, but what does the contract entail? I suspect not 109 pax for each flight. And since you are comapring apples and oranges, what would the max fuel uplift be for the F@kker in the same conditions?

[AN CSO]

Using these sites; http://d.mancini.sites.uol.com.br/fokker/technical_data.html, rekkof.nl and fokkerservices.com

I found this data for the F100

It will need 2727 kg of block fuel for Mt Keith to Perth, allowing 100 kg for taxi gives a flight fuel 2627kg. Adding VR 10% 263 kg and allowing 1000 kg 30 mins FR gives a total of 3890kg. Using the charts from the web site above on a 30ºC day the F100 has a TOW of 43000kg from Mt Keith and 41000kg on a 40ºC day. Using an OW of 25321 kg has listed on the rekkof site and 109 pax at 100kg gives a ZFW of 36221 kg.

Therefore on a 30ºC day there is 6779 kg available for fuel and on a 40ºC day 4779 kg with only 3890 kg required to complete the flight.

With regard to having a spare aircraft, once again that’s another advantage of the F100; it’s cheap to own and operate and doesn’t need to work 8+ days like the B717. The purchase cost of the F100 is less than half that of the B717.

With regard to pay, didn’t the NJS pilots get paid less than the Southern pilots to fly the 146 and aren't they now the lowest paid B717 pilots in the world. NJS Dash 8 pilots get paid less than the Eastern/Sunstate pilots to fly the same aircraft. So why have a go at the Alliance pilots. Like I said the pilots I know there are only working 3-4 days a week. How many days per week are the NJS, Skywest, Virgin Blue and Jetstar pilots working.

So what is your hourly rate? How many hours did you do last year and how many days a week do you work? You still have provided facts regarding slave conditions and allegedly using unintended interpretations of the CAO 48 Exemption.

[Tidbinbilla]

What is this thread about anyway?:rolleyes:

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