Calculating LSALT (Day VFR)

[multi_engined]

Can somebody please explain how to calculate the LSALT for a day VFR flight within Australia from any of the following maps:

VTC
VNC
WAC

I know the rough idea is take the place of highest elevation to 10nm either side of the FPT and add 1000' but also what about if it is a long leg like say 60nm? Do you take the highest LSALT over that leg?

Kind regards,

ME

[Hailstop3]

Never heard of lsalt for day vfr. Pretty sure you can see the ground in that situation and whats up ahead even in poor vis. Just go by 500ft agl in no built up and 1000ft agl in built up areas. Thats as close an explanation i can give. Night vfr is a different story. Can't remember or be bothered going there. Sure there are knowledgeable people here to help u if it is night vfr u mean.

[Arm out the window]

There is no LSALT for a day VFR flight, by definition (unless it's the CAR low flying limits). I'm guessing you're talking about the possibility of inadvertent IMC, and allowing for that? If so, grid lowest safes off the enroute charts would be a good starting point.
You can't legally use a VTC because the heights shown don't necessarily reflect the highest terrain (or words to that effect, see warning note on charts).
With a WAC, draw your track, draw the area to be considered around it, check the highest hypsometric tint in that area and add 1360 ft (1000 plus any uncharted towers, can be up to 360 ft).
What's the area to be considered? If it's night VFR, 10 nm either side of track. If it's IFR, an appropriately-angled splay out of the departure point, out to an appropriate distance, angling in at the appropriate angle, to produce an appropriately shaped area. Then add 5 nm to that all round.
What's the appropriate angle? Hit the books! (AIP is a good start), but I'd suggest you do a bit more research.

[4SPOOLED]

Hahahahah Day VFR LSALT

The quickest way i work them out is the ERC's.....has them written in each grid in the red faded lettering.

If you ever need to get as as low as you can for IFR ops to break out of the soup, then you are best to go and measure it out with the above advice from Arm out the window, marcuste747 the statement "Never heard of lsalt for day vfr. Pretty sure you can see the ground in that situation and whats up ahead even in poor vis" will get someone killed, you may see the ground when your in a spiral over VNE after breaking out of the soup!

Very Important advice, under stress of weather, you can fly at any height you deem neccesary to conduct the flight safely regardless of the area. So if you find yourself as a VFR pilot with reduced VIS and weather closing in, Adopt prec search config, make a plan and stick to it!

Old saying though, when VMC go IFR and when IMC go VFR......

4S

[multi_engined]

Ok thanks for the replies...

I know that LSALT isn't really used for day VFR because it is visual flying...

... Just thought I would just try and be a little more professional for my PPL flight test and actually show I know what LSALT is and how it works on my flight plan.

[4SPOOLED]

Have you heard of KISS before?

Keep
Iit
Simple
Stupid

Spend the time allocated for your flight test on your weight and balance p charts and preplanning your GS check points, features to look for and posible diversion points. If you are tracking in CTA allow for being spat out in unfamiliar territory and having to intercept your track.

Leave LSALTs for your NVFR or MECIR down the track.

Nothing wrong with being enthusiastic, just aim it in a better direction!

Good Luck

4S

[Chimbu chuckles]

multi engined you could indeed waste time learning something that is not applicable to your current operation.

However for a day VFR PPL flight test you would be vastly better served by demonstrating the ability to apply an area forecast to the route you will fly, or be asked to fly, and with particular focus on cloud bases vs terrain and whether you will be able to maintain verticle min distance from cloud AND adequate terrain clearance simultaneously. Adequate terrain clearance may mean more than the legal minumum if it is windy.

As an example think about the examiner pitching up on the day of your flight test and suggesting you might like to plan BK-KAT-BTH-MIG-BK...and on the day in question the ARFOR says something like SCT CLD BASE 6000', OVC 8000' EAST OF A LINE CWR- BTH. 9999, 7000m SCT RASH MTNS. WIND 120/20kts. FRZ LVL 8000'. Light turbulence.

When I did my PPL flight test 26 years ago that is exactly the sort of scenario the ex MIL CAA Examiners of Airmen just LOVED to present to you over the phone from Goulbourn St. If you replied "yessir" and planned it they might even climb in the aircraft with you and see if you could actually do it...if they were in an adventurous mood. If they were actually feeling adventurous enough to go flying they would give you an in flight diversion to a place on the far side of the scattered RASH (particularly if the planned route looked clear) while you were being pounded by the turbulence...preferably in a direction that would put you downwind of some highish terrain. It was actually far more likley that they would just fail you on the spot and drive back into town having suggested you didn't display the common sense and airmanship required of the licence....in fact either way they would fail you...even if you managed to struggle around the navex and not get lost.

If on the other hand you said over the phone; "Sir I have been looking at the ARFOR and the combination of forecast weather, wind speed and direction and terrain on that route suggests that it is marginal today and I would not be comfortable flying that route VFR" you would sit the plick back in his chair. He would almost certainly be sat there with the ARFOR in front of him and try and prod you into it.

"What are you on about there is a 3500' cloudbase and better than 10ks Vis?"

"Yessir but there are also scattered lower clouds around 2000' agl + quite a strong wind which could be particularly uncomfortable and possibly dangerous particularly when we get into the lee of the coastal ranges...not to mention rain and areas of reduced vis that are probably going to be right where we want to go...if Murphy has anything to do with it. The lower cloud could force me down as low as 1000-1500' agl and I think that is too low given the quite strong winds forecast"

Now he might get a tiny bit impatient sounding..."Well ok...plan BK-Aeropelican-SY-BK."

The reality was you probably just passed your flight test before he even left the city...now all you had to do is not fail it as opposed to passing it...there was a difference:ugh:

If you think the above scenario far fetched and impossible (and it might actually be that in the current system) I will give you some real life examples.

I failed my first UPPL flight test with 'Come again' Col Roffe because I was outside two minutes at my first turning point even though I was within +/- 30 seconds at each turning point on 'the now take me to' 3 leg diversion ending up back at YSBK. The reason my position report fell outside +2 min was because he grabbed my hand as I lifted the mike crossing the airfield boundary and held it until I was dead center over the middle of the airfield before letting me do the call.:{

I passed my UPPL retest a week or so later, with high praise from a different ex airforce Examiner, when I refused (nicely) to divert across terrain due to the wind direction placing us in the lee wave area. Other than that one good decision my general flying that day was not half as good as the test I failed.:*

[multi_engined]

Chimbu,

Interesting... thanks for sharing.

[Sunfish]

Thank you for sharing that Chimbu, I've got my flight review to do shortly.

[Mstr Caution]

Day VFR LSALT not really required, unless your running late or miscalculated evening civil twighlight that is.

[multi_engined]

Some things in life really are as rough as bat****.

[M.25]

I wouldn't mention anything that the testing officer doesn't ask. Answer questions clearly but don't go into any unnecessary detail. You might just be trying to be professional and prove how much you know, but they will probably use it as an opportunity to prove how much you don't know.

Certainly be aware that grid LSALT's are available on ERC's and TAC's but as mentioned above I would spend my time studying TAFs, ARFORs, alternate requirements etc etc. Unfortunately the weather man doesn't care weather you are a PPL or an airline pilot.... if the weather is bad the forcast is going to be complicated!

Its also good to be familiar with the area your test will be in. Study the charts very carefully to become familiar. Know where all the PRD areas and control steps are. Just because you have planned around them, doesn't mean the ATO wont try to divert you through them.:eek:

[multi_engined]

OH my GOD!!!

Things have changed,

I can't believe it...

I now have an instructor who is just about to join the military for my flightest and I am nervous because he goes hard on students, is FAIR, but is HARD as bat****... I can't believe this is happening, I think I will pass out soon :eek:

My mate who did his pre licence flight test with him a few months back was failed because he messed up ONE single CTAF call out of the whole flight :ugh:

Holy shmoley... :bored:

[ITCZ]

Multi, a few words to remember.... all been said here before by wiser and more experienced heads than me, but worth saying again.....

1. An examiner, or check pilot, or ATO, is expecting a candidate to PASS. The candidate has done the training, and has been recommended by the CFI (in the case of an initial license/rating issue) or has been out there doing the job (in the case of a renewal/flight review).

It would be a surprise and an cause for explanation should a recommended candidate fail.

2. The 'come again' ATOs are pretty much a thing of the past. They existed, and now they are all retired or dead.

3. Never go into a test or check with the aim of impressing anyone, least of all the examiner. Nobody walks onto the first tee at the Australian Open to impress the crowd. That is a sure way to lose. The winner will be the one that has a solid technique, a little talent, and a good but adaptable game plan, and a bunch of luck.

When you are flying the aeroplane or in a simulator, whatever, your attention should be on the job at hand. Fly the aeroplane. Run the show. Your 'opponents' are the terrain, the atmosphere, and the gremlins in the aeroplane. Your teammates are ATC, your knowledge and your experience. The examiner is an interested passenger and is way down on the list of items requiring your attention.

4. You will make mistakes. Just ask Professor Rob Helmreich at the University of Texas. You will pass your check not by not making errors, but how you identify, correct, and move on from the errors that you will make on the day.

5. Last but not least, do not equate Day VFR = kindergarten flying. Day VFR, done properly, is a very demanding set of skills and knowledge. I have 9,000hr in a variety of aeroplanes, and any time I daydream about a nice Day VFR jaunt on a sunny day, I think of all the procedures I will have to study and refresh my memory and all the skills that are way rusty.

There is plenty enough in Day VFR to fill your brain without having to go learn things for an unrelated operation.

Going back to the golfing analogy, no amount of trick shots will make up for a poor basic swing. Good basic techniques, thoroughly understood, and employed with discipline is what will get you through.

If you can spout off about LSALTs but can't answer questions on recency, carriage of lifejackets, or separation standards for TO and LDG at uncontrolled aerodromes, you will look a goose rather than impressive!

Go through the Day VFR syllabus and make sure you can answer all those questions first. Then read your Aircraft Flight Manual and know all the procedures and limits for your aircraft. Then read the relevant sections of your AIP. Then get your maps and charts out and study all the ground features and airspace boundaries....

Even get your training notes off your instructor and review what you did well, and what you generally don't do well, and make sure you bone up on that stuff.

Plenty of things to do before you go delving into IFR.

Good luck, and dont forget to enjoy yourself! ;)

[Arm out the window]

Also, don't worry about who the examiner is or what he may or may not have done to people you know previously.
A flight test like this is where you need to get yourself in the mindset that you are the competent, prepared aircraft captain who is going to plan and conduct the flight as briefed to the best of his ability, and be ready for and cope with any emergencies that can (and will, funnily enough) arise.
If the examiner tells you he will act as a passenger, that's how you treat him - safety brief him, and do all the things you would do as if he's just Joe Bloggs who's never been in an aircraft before and you're taking him for a flight.

[witwiw]

A flight test like this is where you need to get yourself in the mindset that you are the competent, prepared aircraft captain who is going to plan and conduct the flight as briefed to the best of his ability, and be ready for and cope with any emergencies that can (and will, funnily enough) arise.
If the examiner tells you he will act as a passenger, that's how you treat him - safety brief him, and do all the things you would do as if he's just Joe Bloggs who's never been in an aircraft before and you're taking him for a flight.

exactly.

in my experience with license tests, the examiner has taken on the role of passenger apart from the times he needs to take over while you put the hood on for some basic IF/lost procedure, and when putting you into an unusual attitude for recovery.

treat them as a passenger. brief them accordingly (know the required items- CAOs!), you dont need to speak to them during the flight, however a little bit of light banter doesnt hurt, maybe point out where your flying over, it might be of interest.

dont turn to them to ask for a decision- you are in command, show your judgement and make the decisions yourself. if your uncertain about where your current route is taking you, do something about it (as an example, on one of my tests during a low level segment i wasnt happy about the shower between my present position and my waypoint, so i diverted around it).

be confident in yourself, fly safely within your and the aeroplanes limitations, make sound judgements which you can justify. watch your tracking and heights, always revise groundspeeds and estimates when you can- stay busy!

as for the LSALT stuff, all youll need to know is the 500/1000 minimums, and if really need be (ie the examiner says "you have inadvertantly entered IMC. what height should we stay above?") you can get a grid LSALT off your ERC/TAC.


enjoy it. there might be a fair bit of anxiety and stress, but thats normal and the examiners have all seen it before. just know what is required of you to know, be confident, be safe, and fly as best as you can thinking its your normal instructor next to you and its not a test at all!

[777WakeTurbz]

My mate who did his pre licence flight test with him a few months back was failed because he messed up ONE single CTAF call out of the whole flight

I can hardly believe your friend failed due to one fudged call, he probably doesnt want to admit what else he did wrong...:hmm:

So dont stress so much, if you have passed your Pre Test and have been given a couple of things to practice or work on then as long as you cover those issues you should be ok.
Make sure you make good command decisions and dont ask the instructor/testing officer what he thinks you should do. He wants to see you make the decisions as you would have to if you were on your own with your friends on a nav.
They want to see a good standard, not a perfect one, and in my experiences if you make a good standard, then you will be better than a lot (if not most:oh:) of other PPLs out there

Good Luck with your test and future as a pilot mate...:D

Turbz