Fog in Perth

[nose,cabin]

I was amazed to see the fog roll in at 0130 last Sat morning.
some aircraft got caught short on fuel after several missed approaches
Qantas made a Mayday and did an autoland in very low vis.
It seems alternate airport fuel should be mandatory all flights- to prevent this.
Some International carriers do carry Adelaide fuel at night on all flights.

[topend3]

Qantas made a Mayday and did an autoland in very low vis.

Absolutely sure about that? source???

[Brian Abraham]

ATSB web site

[Agent86]

ATSB factual info here (http://www.atsb.gov.au/publications/investigation_reports/2006/AAIR/aair200605473.aspx)

YPPH Wx a little later

SPECI YPPH 151619Z 03005KT 0700 FG BKN001 14/14 Q1016 FM1619 VRB03KT 0300 FG BKN001
METAR YPPH 151630Z 02005KT 0300 FG OVC001 14/14 Q1016 NOSIG
METAR YPPH 151700Z 04005KT 0150 FG OVC001 15/15 Q1016 RMK WBD 0.1 CHECK ATIS FOR CURRENT RWY VIS NOSIG

It wasn't going to get any better for a while ....

[dijon moutard]

when we get the new brick works (at the actual airport itself) in the near future it will make for interesting arrivals after midnight and in the "wee" hours of the morning . it will only make the fog worse.
thank god for autoland capability on some aircraft !!!!!!!!!!!!

cheers
dijon moutard:ok:

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Qantas made a Mayday and did an autoland in very low vis.
It seems alternate airport fuel should be mandatory all flights- to prevent this.
Some International carriers do carry Adelaide fuel at night on all flights.

Isn't fixed reserves to account for the one in twenty year event like that? Where do you draw the line? Enough fuel for how far a divert??

[Feather #3]

Ahh....P-a-F.....I'm here to tell you it's not a one-in-twenty at PER!!:ooh:

G'day ;)

[Lord Snot]

The appearance of fog at Perth airport may not be a 1 in 20 event but fog (or mist) with vis reduced below Cat I mins at just the Actual Time of Arrival of a flight may be a little less common.

Even European airports equipped and certified for Cat IIIb ops count on the weather phenomena requiring it's use appearing coincidentally with aircraft arrivals being very uncommon.

One guy carries out the Missed Approach, the next one five minutes later makes it in. That's how it (often) works.....

Of course, if the applicable obscuration has sufficient intensity and duration, a 30min, 40min or 45min fixed reserve might not be much help.

Some international airlines carry an alternate for every flight they operate.

[cunninglinguist]

Have raced the fog into PH on more than one occasion after departing from 700nm north with a CAVOK TTF.

Pass-a-frozo, fixed reserve is 30 minutes fuel at holding fuel flow, in most jets this would be equivalent to 1 go-round and an approach before you're on vapours. Most jets would be getting fuel lo level warnings long before you reach fixed res qty.
I would never plan into Perth ( at night ) without enough fuel for an approach, go-round, approach and 30 fixed, inspite of the fact that i have been flying A/C with autoland capability for a few years.

It did'nt take me too long to work out I was'nt going to get any medals for landing with minimum fuel and increasing the grey hair count.

[DutchRoll]

That's fair enough - neither would I. But it seems even that wouldn't have saved anyone in this case!

[CAYNINE]

Ok, "Fixed Reserve" is FIXED, not to be used, margin to stop the donks from ceasing to turn. So why are you even talking about burning it!!

Contingency is the fat for the enroute unexpected....

Nearly all Internationals carry an alternate regardless of the weather or time of the day, that is why they only have enough fuel to do do the approach and then depart for the alternate, unless there is still contingency and extra gas still on board.

[Chimbu chuckles]

My airline arrives YPPH with 2 hrs 'remote destination' reserve or Adelaide...usually crew's choice which. Keeps the grey hair/sphincter action to a minimum.

That is 8 to 10 tonnes extra on top of FR. Very relaxing way to fly.

As Agent86 remarked...if it is like that at local midnight it aint improving for a fair while...even two hours might not be enough on occassion.

[john_tullamarine]

.. has Perth ever been any different ? .. we all have had a fright or two with the fog there in the wee hours coming over from the east coast ... and, if you don't have autoland, it makes sense to keep the handflying skills up to being able to fly an ILS to the flare if there is no other sensible alternative.

[DirectAnywhere]

Shut down a little while ago in PH with 35 tonnes.

Now that's comfortable...

[ShockWave]

If your fuel policy does not require an alternate airport, you really have to consider Perth as an isolated airports in Heavy aircraft because the alternates are so far away. Having autoland capabillity should not factor in your fuel decision because the airport is not Low Vis certified, nor the ILS. Having to autoland on a non approved ILS/Runway in actual Low Vis is a very scary scenario and to be avoided at all costs.
Also, what if the airport closes or runways become blocked because of an aircraft accident or breakdown?

[Capn Bloggs]

Also, what if the airport closes or runways become blocked because of an aircraft accident or breakdown?
Land on the cross runway, or the 2200m-odd remaining on 21/03, or go to YPEA (or YPKG or YGEL if you have the fuel).

[ShockWave]

If your flying a wide body heavy jet those options may also not be available, LDA, PCN, stairs, fuel, parking, tugs'n towbars Facillities for pax etc unless you also must declare an emergency.

[jack red]

Having to autoland on a non approved ILS/Runway in actual Low Vis is a very scary scenario and to be avoided at all costs.


Not true.

Aircraft with an autoland capability can auto-land successfully on any Cat I ILS facility. It's all the bureaucratic garbage required to get these Cat I ILS's up to Cat III status or better. PER,SYD,MEL & BNE should all be Cat III B ILS approved - but who is going to pay for it and sign off the paperwork. You only have to read the crap about the NAS to realise how reluctant to (aviation) change Australians are. :mad:

[Keg]

Jack I think the point that shockwave was stressing was not whether an autoland on a Cat I runway was dicey but rather the issue of the 'in low vis' case. I'm pretty sure most of us understand that the autoland on a Cat I runway is no big deal but the pucker factor goes up very significantly doing that auto-land on the Cat I runway with vis is down to 100m or so! :eek:

[jack red]

Have you never landed in 100m vis on a Cat III A approach during your time in QF on the 744? Have you ever practised low vis approaches down to 100m vis in the sim ? If you haven't, then I apologise, as I presumed QF would train there 744,767 and A330 pilots in this area.

Trust me, there is no big deal provided everything is working.

Now, the "pucker factor" you mention would really go up if you elected to ditch or land at an unfamiliar airport that couldn't handle your aircraft type.

[404 Titan]

jack red

Trust me, there is no big deal provided everything is working.

And that is the problem with your argument. There is no guarantee that everything is working correctly or the precautions that need to be taken are going to be taken by the operator of an airport with only a Cat 1 ILS. ILS protected areas and aircraft separation are the first that come to mind. It’s one thing doing an auto land off a Cat 1 ILS in Cat 1 or greater conditions. It’s a completely different thing to do the same thing when the conditions drop to Cat 3A or B without the required protections and precautions in place. That’s why a Mayday needs to be declared in such situations and quite frankly the pucker factor goes up.

[jack red]

If everything isn't working then you don't do the approach and landing. An aircraft, with auto land capability, arrives at an aerodrome with un-forecast fog, declares an emergency (to ensure vehicles and aircraft remain clear of the ILS sensitive areas) and lands.

The QF crew did exactly what you would expect in the situation they found themselves and did it professionally and with the minimum amount of "pucker factor" ! (I love that phrase)

[Keg]

And what if the equipment (which isn't certified to Cat III standard) failed? What if the back up power didn't switch as quickly as is required for a Cat III approach? What about the lights that give visual clues in low vis that assist with telling you whether you're over the runway centreline or runway edge lighting?

I've done enough low vis approaches (both in the sim and for real) to know that flying to Cat III minima on a Cat I certified approach is not something to be treated lightly. If your pucker factor isn't up then I don't want to go flying with you! :eek: :ugh: