Leaving South Africa for the Sandpit

[Scruffy]

I have recently been offered a job in the Middle East. Initially I was stoked and couldn't wait to go and get my hands on their nice shiny Boeings. The offer is ok money-wise and its a good outfit. But as the weeks have passed, I am less and less excited and in fact have 99% decided not to go.

The Pro's are

Good company, nice aircraft, good expat crowd, relatively fast command

The Con's are...

Selling cars etc in SA (losing $)
Packing up stuff in SA for storage (paying $)
Removal costs for that stuff I would take (paying $)
Renting out house and not being there to stay on top of that, leaving it to relatives or agents (losing $)
Haemorraging money on soon-to-be-unused cell-phone, internet, contracts (losing $)
Leaving friends and family
Partner must resign her job, and leave her family behind
She can join the same company as me as hostie, but we can't marry there for 2 years, and if she falls pregnant she's out of a job
It's hot as hell there
It's a Muslim state and I being Infidel don't count much, if at all
I will be spending all I earn, month to month, including paying money into SA each month for expenses there (storage, rental agent, contracts, insurance)
Hassle of finding accomodation and buying a whole new set of furniture etc
The new company's routes and rosters are a bit rough


(can anyone add more)

Long-term, I would not stay there forever so it means another huge upheaval in several years, back to SA? But then again maybe its good to get out of SA with all the crime/political idiots?

If I stay in SA what is there for me? I'm fairly happy where I am now but need to move on. Can't get into SAA being non-black, I don't fancy an F/O pay at Nationwide... SAX I would have to move up and down from Cape Town as I progressed. Safair, Airquarius spend too much time on contract. Comair & Mango sound like relatively good options, but so far no bite. And frustrating to see lesser-experienced people getting the nod.

Speaking to people who have made the move to the Gulf, it sounds as if they enjoy it initially but then their happiness seems to fade away... as I read on another thread here (the 737 advert in the Sunday Times thread), cracks begin appearing in the decision.

I'd like to hear from those who have made the move, any others considering the move, and anyone with good advice or input. Thanks:ok:

[journeyman]

Scruffy,

This job in the Middle East - is it with Emirates?

[putt for dough]

Taking a stab in the dark here......
Sounds like Gulf Air ;)

[Solid Rust Twotter]

a.) Do you have jet time?

b.) Do you want jet time without selling your soul and bonding forever for a urine poor salary?

Your route to command where you're planning to go doesn't sound too rough and you'll definitely live a better life there than trying to get into one of the majors in SA without the necessary requirement while keeping body and soul together with contract and charter work. The experience on those international routes is worth gold if you're still relatively young.

[Deskjocky]

Ive been offered jobs form 2 carriers in that part of the world- my reason for accepting niether- after going there to check it out- was what did I do after the contract was over? It just looked like a place you went to for a few years to either make a few bucks/ experience a new way of life/get experience etc.

I just felt it was better to hang in in SA and build my career here. I had the feeling that my next move after the Gulf would have to be Europe or some place like that and I didnt want to be a wanderer for the rest of my career. But thats just me.

[congoman]

One of my best friends recently resigned from EK. He was there 12 years. Was with SAA before. He told me that leaving SAA was the WORST decision he ever made in his life! I considered it myself 12 years ago and NOT going was the BEST decision I never made in my life! (Many of the SA pilots who've been there for some time are now baling out.)
I've been to DXB many times and if living in a sauna is for you, then go for it. (If you have kids or intend to, don't even consider it!) Obviously this decision has pro's and cons on both sides, but based on what's been posted on this and the 737 advert thread, there's enough information for you to read between the lines. My personal opinion: not just EK... DON'T GO ANYWHERE NEAR THE MIDDLE EAST! for all the reasons that are right here on pprune. No matter what the ME apologists may say!

[south coast]

i grew up in the middle east, before i had anything to do with the aviation world....best days of my life.


i think it is down to the individual, but there are lots of very good reasons to go to the middle east, aswell as some good ones not to.

lets face it, sa has its own set of MAJOR problems!

[Shrike200]

This is the dilemma facing many South African pilots at the moment. It really is a pity that if you want to stay in SA, your choice of companies to make a career of it in is very, very limited. I personally feel there's only one realistic option, but there are probably more (ie two!) I have made my choice, and as a result, I will never be very well off at all. But I will be at home at least.

[virgin camel]

If moving to another country doesnt really excite you then dont bother going.
If you are a bit open minded and are prepared to do something new then give it a crack.
If you are genuinely happy with your present employer then stay put and ask yourself why you applied for a job in the ME.
Whatever turns you on sunshine.

[Yarba]

The ME cost me 6 months of my life. I had all the same thoughts as you and only one good thing came out of it. After just short time there I was offered new job back in Africa even better than before. I never wish to return. Africa is the place to be.:ok:

[Sir Osis of the river]

Scruffy,
How old are you? (Not being derogatory). If you still have years and years on your side, you might yet get to attempt the walk on water test in Kempton Park,( or does it have a new name now?) If you are really chasing a quick command, you will eventually have to leave SA. Unfortunately, this is a reality.
Not everyone fits into expat life. That goes for the Sandpit, just as well as anywhere else in the world. ( I know guys who have returned to Sa from Europe and the East as well.) Only you can decide, having solicited as much advice as possible, if it will work for you. That said, with all the advice in the world, you still might get it wrong. You will never know unless you try.
Warlock, well said. Most "expenses" really become small change in the scheme of things. However, count on a good year to fully establish yourself in an expat community.
BTW, EK is not the only airline in the Gulf operating Boeings: EK, EY, GF, QR (on order) Royal Jet.
Good luck

[nozzle]

Yip iv moved away from Africa and I found greener grass here only because there is more s**t on this side but worth doing it so been there and done it.

[saywhat]

Toss a coin....................

Heads, you go.

Easy as that.

[Whenwe]

I am retired now, but I spent a year in Jeddah and as sand pits go, not the best.

If you have years on your side, go.

Its an experience to be had! Guess who might be our next president in SA?

[Ketek400]

You only have one life. Live it!

I am going going ....sooon

[putco]

The best jobs and the best aeries are in the places that can pay your bills. Not much else to it.:bored:

[SpootNICK]

Now this is not going to make your decision any easier..........but,

I spent 5 years in DXB and loved every moment of it. I enjoyed working for EK and had a good circle of friends outside of EK. The lifestyle was a little different to what I was used to in SA - But if I look back on it - it was superb!

DXB (and all the other expat heavans) have their own headackes. But compared to the nonsense going on in SA at the moment I would still say it would be better for you and youre other half in DXB.

For those of you who havent heard.......JZ has been let off the hook.

JZ for President..............................! NOT!
SN

[Ketek400]

Whatever you choose, it is what you make of it! Go with the right attitude and you will enjoy. As long as you have a plan. I base things on a 5 year plan. When I achive my plan earlier I change the goal for the next 5 years. That keeps me happy and focused. In the mean while I try and enjoy reaching that goal.

Good luck!

[SpootNICK]

I agree with Ketek400..........SN

[Bucket]

For those of us on the cusp of a move a thread like this really helps. It is never easy to see the other side and as a non South African who loves SA I am finding it hard to make an informed desicion about where to go next. Pay is not always the main criteria though it does form part of the more important reasons. So for those of you who wish to stay in SA, may I objectively raise this question and I am particularly interested to hear from those of you with families.

Bucket;)

[Arcla]

Without a doubt....GO!
I left SA about two years ago to another carrier (Not in the sandpit). At first, yes you miss your family and friends and SA life for that matter like crazy!
But as soon as you get into the mindset that this is your new reality you make new friends , find new places to hang out , find new hobbies - Basically make a new life!
You can always go home later....a couple of years of operating jets and there will certainly be some job available to you in Sa. And trust me nothing at home changes...its the same sh1t just another day.
Take the plunge and enjoy the adventure. You only live once!

[Yossarian]

Been away from home a few years now, and yes I do miss it a lot. Nothing is quite like home, after all. Sometimes I miss it more than other times. But with three kids very happy and safe out of SA, I would say they are my main reason for NOT coming back yet. But we all have different opinions and agendas, so take it for what it is worth.

No-one has exactly the same experiences or reasons for doing something as the next guy, so it is ultimately up to you to make the choice. It is a big step, but if you make the right one opens up huge opportunities you are unlikely to encounter at home.

My wife's career has prospered with international exposure, the kids are happy and I am hopefully building up some marketable experience. It may not help me directly back in SA, but if all else fails, I will retire to watch the kids, scrub the braai, run the kids to school and live off the wifes newfound skills.

[putco]

Arcla and Yossarian - super to hear that guys are positive. l suppose it's a lot about what you make of anything really.

Thinking of crossing the borders as well, already working out the country permanently.

[SubsonicMortal]

This is my acount on the subject:

Last year I received the invitation of my life (so far) - to attend an interview at one of the grand airlines in the ME. At the time I received the email, I was sitting way up north in one of the many sh** holes in Africa, flying turbo-props for a UN contracted company. By that time, I had been flying on contract for three years from west to north to south to east africa, diligently applying and updating my CV with EVERY airline back in South Africa. This I did every two months and personally knocked on the doors of chief pilots for a friendly chat at those outfits. Always fruitless :ugh: A week after attending the interview (which had me flown to and accomodation provided in a hotel for 5 days at their expense), I received a "congratulations-Johnny" letter with an A320-rating promise printed in the first paragraph.

Then one day, while signing on for a flight (still during my line training phase), my vodacom phone rang and I picked up. Who was the call from? Went like this... "Mr xxx?" - "Yes" - "This is Captain xxx calling from South African Airlink. We would like to invite you for an interview". Then Im told the interviews would be for the Jetstream fleet. I politely turned down the invitation and said that I have already in the meantime found a job elsewhere (without spilling the beans). After I hung up the reality of the situation back home struck me again and I said a silent prayer for having been given this opportunity.

I have now been gone from SA for 8 months and I have been home twice so far and going again in two weeks and looking forward to a MONTH long vacation in SA in December. That's a pretty good leave benefit. You cant compare the benefits you get with the ME airlines to that what we get back home. It might suck to be away from home but everytime I go back I realise that SA is not getting any better for the white guys in terms of careers at the airlines. Here, I can look forward to moving onto an A330 within 2 years and then getting cross crew qualified on the A340 within another year for mixed fleet flying. Time to command is approximately 5 years. SAA wants 13 years!!??

Im single and the lifestyle and career prospects are great. Im the wrong guy to ask about moving here with a family but if your single, you'll have the time of your life! I enjoy the freedom of getting an ID90 ticket on the airline and within 8 hours I am back in South Africa with my loved ones. Less time that it takes to drive from Joburg to Capetown.

For those not sure about the move. At least come for the interview and see what its like before turning it down. I have heard of so many guys who have done that (okay each to his own) but at least come here and see what its like. There are things here I dont like either but at least I ca drive around here in a flashy car that I will NEVER be able to afford in SA and not have the fear in me that I'll end up with a 9mm barrel pointed at my head whenever I stop at a robot. I dont have to have a satelite tracker installed in my car or see 30-40% of my salary go to SARS. Every cent of what I make is mine and the corrupt government back home cant touch it.

All in all, its what you make of it and it can be a darn good move if you are willing to take the chance. :ok:

[bianchi]

I fully agree with Subsonicmortal( W.E ?)

If you are single then there's no question......GO,GO !!!If you are married and your wife is honestly happy for you(and her) the make the move then also GO!!
BUT your wife GOT to be honestly happy about the decision. ( "happy wife , equals is happy life")

I was offered a position with a major airline abroad( not in the Me) and did not take it !!Why ? because I was STUPID !!! You just must not want to leave SA because you want to fly a B777.( chasing "heavy metal !). Because the "mickey" also wears off quickly about what you fly ! I know, have flown both A & B.

Good luck with your dicision !

[Scruffy]

Thanks to all who have responded, a very diverse set of opinions! I hope this post gets put up quickly because I have been 'muted' by the new 'below 5 posts you wait for a moderator' rule and my last 2 posts haven't been put up for 4 days.

I haven't got the years on my side really, I'm 38 and the concern is that this may be my last chance to get into a major. But I do enjoy my current job and am leaning heavily towards waiting for an opportunity to crop up in SA rather than uproot again.

Thanks again guys.:ok:

[Sir Osis of the river]

Scruffy,

I agree. the posts have been good and balanced. I considered myself very fortunate to get offered a widebody job at age 34, with only bizjet time, and had no hesitation at the time in uprooting the family. It was the best move I could have made. I did not stay with that carrier, but have since moved on. That too was a good move. Once you have the time on type your options are lot wider.

Dare I say that at age 38, time is running out. ( Unless a new airline starts in RSA. What are the chances of that?? I say if you have a firm offer, take it. If you or the family are really not happy later, you can always change plan and return. Good luck with the decision.

Sir Osis

[Solid Rust Twotter]

I guess 45 is past it then...:(

Given the chance I'd go for it like a long dog after a bitch in heat.

[beechbum]

I'm in the same boat. Have been invited for an interview but still in two minds whether or not to accept. If I'm in doubt should I waste my time and theirs? I'm not sure whether the T&C's are really what I'm after.....pension or lack of it being of upmost priority.Anyway if Subsonicmortal sees this maybe he can reply....by the way I have PM'd you aswell.

[EtAF]

ME airlines (esp. EK) have pouched many pilots from ET. EK alone has 22 pilots by summer. The pay is excellent (tax free!!!), with accomodation and a guarantee job for your spouse within EK. Workload is also less than they are accustomed to at ET. On the downside, the social life is pretty bad. That is the trade-off.

The experience will be good as the major ME airlines do fly to many locations and the fleets are newer. With few years of international experience with newer jets under your belt, you will be a hot commodity anywhere else.

[Scruffy]

An update and thanks to all who responded.

I made my decision and it was to turn down the job in the Middle East.

Reasons - main reason - it would have been a transient job, I never intended to spend the rest of my life in the Gulf, so in 5 years or 7 years or whenever I would have had to pick up sticks and move again.

Even with a B777 command rating I would not be able to get a B777 job in South Africa except perhaps as a boy pilot at SAA.

So the Middle East, whichever airline (I have since rejected interview invites from Emirates and Qatar too) would have led to 3 years at least in the Gulf, (5 years if I waited for command) and then I would have been able to move to where I wanted to be more, for example Europe, if I had not by that time found a fantastic job in SA.

I do have a couple of thousand jet hours and really enjoy my current job, and to put myself in the same position I would have been in as described in the paragraph above, all I need to do is do my JAR license and move to where I want to be in one go.

Sounds a bit convoluted perhaps, other reasons were the climate and the local culture, which I am not keen on.

It was a tough decision, but I am 100% pleased and happy with it and see my way ahead so much more clearly now.

Thanks again to all who responded:ok:

[Dct no speed]

I am behind the Mic,but provider of vectors !
I also agree that this place is what you make of it, You find two types out here the ones who love it .......and the ones who hate it.

Some have been out here for 20 years hating every minute and some left after just 3 years but still loved it here !

Good luck!
Catch you on the waves! 124.9/124.45 over and out!

[HeliJedi]

You know man, I have made some pretty interesting decisions in my life. Some decisions didn't work out the way I had planned, others sort of did. Sitting on the fence and weighing up every eventuality can be a negative way of approaching things. You see, no one I have met thus far really understands fortune telling, but I have met a load of people who have had unbelievable successes in their life because they were s***t scared and went for it.

Don't be afraid about what might or might not happen. Live the adventure, live your life. Every opportunity you take in life WILL lead you to another one.

May the force be with you.

HJ