41 hours isn't enough experience to fly an A206G !!! ATSB

[QNH1013.2]

Seems that 41 hours just isn't enough time on type!


Pilot Inexperience Causes crash

A LIGHT plane crash-landed in a lagoon in Queensland's Torres Strait because of the pilot's inexperience, an investigation has found.

The chartered Cessna was carrying six passengers to Mabuiag Island from Warraber Island in the Torres Strait on April 27 when it touched down, lost control, veered through a fence and careered into a lagoon.
An Australian Transport Safety Bureau (ATSB) report released today said the pilot, whose identity was not revealed, suffered minor injuries.
None of the passengers was injured but the aircraft was substantially damaged.
The report found the plane had no mechanical defects and the pilot's limited experience flying the model of aircraft in the prevailing weather conditions had led to the accident.
"While the braking technique may have been a factor, it is more likely that the pilot's limited experience in crosswind conditions and on the aircraft type were the main factors that led to the runway excursion," it said.
The pilot had been working for the charter company for just under one month and had 312 hours flying experience but just 41 hours flying the A206G aircraft model.

[Chimbu chuckles]

Well considering in PNG (even coastal) a new pilot would probably still be under line training at 41 hrs perhaps they're correct.

I fail to understand what part of 312TT/41 on type you could conceivably call experienced under any circumstances:confused:

Sounds to me like an innexperienced pilot who perhaps never got a great grasp of the basics:ugh: and this was not corrected by his first CP during the extensive line training that he should have been given but wasn't.

Just how fast was he travelling when he touched down if he had enough energy left to touched down, lost control, veered through a fence and careered into a lagoon.

Having crashed a month into his first job ATSB should be (and probably have been) looking very carefully at his flying school training records and the company C&Ting records and standards...he probably is only guilty of youthful overconfidence/enthusiasm...his CP is almost certainly guilty of cutting corners in training/not demanding a high enough standard.

[triadic]

This is not the first and won't be the last accident that reflects poorly on the existing standards of flying training.

I know of some schools where the instructors won't go flying with a student to do to X/W circuits because they don't feel confident to do it themselves ! In some cases, they are the 2nd or 3rd generation of such pilots that had such instructors themselves!!

Basic stick and rudder skills are lacking across the board and this certainly shows when what should be a proficient new CPL holder jumps into the real world where the CP sets and maintains some standards.

I have said for many years that every such accident should, as part of the investigation, follow up where with with who the pilot involved did his/her training from basic upwards. I would be that some very interesting data would surface, but neither the ATSB or CASA seem to be interested (??)

[Dave Incognito]

All said and done, Mabuiag isn’t the easiest place to land at, especially with a bit of breeze from the wrong direction. Most people with 300hrs (regardless of training) would find the pulse up a tad going in there for the first few times.

[Arm out the window]

Well, Bruce Byron has spoken strongly about his aim of making the upping of training standards a priority - has anyone seen evidence of this being practically applied yet? I hope it's going to be followed through on.
Although it's a common thing, apparently, I can't agree with the idea that a fresh CPL graduate with an instructor's course under their belt but no operational flying experience is the right person to be teaching the next generation of pilots.

[BrokenConrod]

This is not the first and won't be the last accident that reflects poorly on the existing standards of flying training

Pretty much says it all !

BC:cool:

[triadic]

DI

If that is the case, then I would have thought that the CP would have arranged sufficient trips there in order to "qualify" his pilot/s on the strip. Especially the case for a newby who may not be proficient in X/Ws to start with.

Training (or lack of) is all too often the problem these day, but few will admit it!

:ugh: :ugh: :ugh:

[amos2]

So, to take Triadics point...

why is there a lack of training these days compared to yesteryear?

[BackdoorBandit]

Hmmm, 300 hrs, 40 on type and this guy has a runway excursion in a perfectly servicable aircraft. It doesn't matter how bad his training was - this guy should be driving nothing more complicated than a cab!

[Ratshit]

Heaps if you were taught to fly properly!

C206 is not the Space Shuttle.

R:cool:

[CAR256]

Heaps if you were taught to fly properly!

C206 is not the Space Shuttle.


Here Here King Rat...

[Chimbu chuckles]

Amen Rat...therein lays the problem...proper training, proper oversight.

I remember my first CP cutting me loose in the C185 in Chimbu with only about 100 hrs more TT.

The main difference was I had been given a crap load more exposure and training than this guy seems to have been given...just checked logbook 1 and there was 34 hrs of ICUS in the first 6 weeks and I remember doing at least that again in the RHS on area and airstrip famil. In the following month there was 10 more hours ICUS spread over 6 days while I flew command in between...this to get me operational into some of the harder airstrips...note I didn't say hardest strips, they came later again...having been limited to easy ones solo at first, even though had flown into the hard ones ICUS as loads dictated.

Remember this was averaging 12 minutes/sector..5 takeoffs and landings per hour. If anything its the sectors that count not the hours...always the hole in the 10 hrs ICUS MINIMUM requirements.

When Terry sent me out alone he limited my loads to 400kg (about 50 kgs less than MTOW) for another 50 hrs and left me in NO WAY uncertain as to his expectations. His exact words were "The FIRST time you sit forward in your seat and wonder what to do just turn around and come back...I may then do the trip but feel no pressure...I have more experience".

This is a CLASSIC example of the old saying 'if you think training is expensive try accidents".

[Led Zep]

His exact words were "The FIRST time you sit forward in your seat and wonder what to do just turn around and come back...I may then do the trip but feel no pressure...I have more experience".

This is a CLASSIC example of the old saying 'if you think training is expensive try accidents".

I feel that many other young pilots have probably been give a message quite to the contrary.

"If you come back...you can keep walking!"

[practice]

This sounds awfully like an accident that happened of the coast of MK, except the ATSB never investigated that one... Broke the poor GA8 aswell...

[lk978]

i am of the opinion that hours dont give clear indicator of expearience surely 40 hours would be enough to learn to fly a single....

i think some people fly 1000 hours and some people fly 1 hour 1000 times:ok:

[rogerexplosion]

Who wrote the article?

A lot of speculation on the information given :rolleyes:

[Torres]

A number of far more experienced pilots have come to grief at Mabuiag, mostly off the eastern sea wall, some attempting ground loops etc (including a Coastwatch Islander some years ago). Mabuiag is not an airport for the inexperienced ... or faint of heart!

Knowing the "standards" of some ... many .... probably most .... Torres Strait operators, particularly those who employ inexperienced pilots under very questionable remuneration arrangements (one I heard of included "payment by the revenue mile flown"), I am surprised there are not many more serious accidents in the Straits.

[Bula]

yeah you would think guys who are 747 captains would have been through it all and treat people with a little bit more respect and dignity (DID I JUST SAY THAT??) :mad:

[PLovett]

Gentlemen ..................... and others.

If I recall correctly on the initial thread dealing with this crash, the pilot involved admitted his errors and received some excellent advise to learn from it then push ahead with his career. :ok:

It was apparent that his training and initial checking to line was at fault, something which has been correctly identified by some on this thread as rife in the industry. :\

So perhaps a little less huffing and puffing about experience and hours and degree of difficulty or not in flying a C206 and a little more thought how we as industry professionals can ensure the same doesn't happen again. :)

[Torres]

Yes you did Bula and I know exactly what you mean!

PLovett, I doubt there would have been too much checking of any integrity. I recall seeing a C206 operated for some days if not a week or two, with a truck battery in the pod and auto jump cables used to start the engine.

Mabuiag is always a difficult one, 415 meters, sea at both ends - and mostly the two wind socks point at each other!

[drshmoo]

300 total and 40 on type is pretty standard first job stuff. I’m sure nearly everyone was at this stage sometimes in their career. I hope the pilot and operator learn from their mistakes.
This single pilot bush flying is where you learn important decision making and f@#k ups are part of the learning process.
I agree that schools should make the students take on cross wind landings and I too agree that people shouldn't become instructors on Day VFR without Day VFR experience. The knowledge that can be passed on by the instructor is essentially what their instructors taught them. If the instructor had a little time doing charter/scenic flights then they could pass on much more. As usual having experience doing both is best.:ok: ( I don't have a rating )

Sounds like it might have been tough conditions and the pilot and the pax walked away....maybe well done. The only person that really knows is the pilot involved and not necessarily the investigators that had to leave the comforts of the air conditioned office.

[Fliegenmong]

Triadic wrote:

I know of some schools where the instructors won't go flying with a student to do to X/W circuits because they don't feel confident to do it themselves ! In some cases, they are the 2nd or 3rd generation of such pilots that had such instructors themselves!!



I do sincerely hope that this is not true! Surely not!

I learnt how to fly Ultralights into dirt strips , surrounded by high trees – no flaps mind you – Side slipping final approaches almost dragging the wheels through the branches with left and right x/wind landings and in the Winter considerable rotors and turbulence from the mountains.

Pure stick and rudder men we was!!!!!! :}

Yes of course I know about the dangers of cross controls / side slipping – but the training had it drilled into us to increase the airspeed (I forget right now how much more) – But further to that incipient spin training was also covered (not that its going to help if you happened to enter at 50ft) – ands spin training is another whole argument altogether!). All of it was good training

Not one of us EVER bent an aeroplane :=

I’m trying to find the word that best describes the elation at knowing I am a better pilot than some instructors :) – and at the same time the anguish of knowing that some of these people have flying jobs.:{

Money Eh?

No wonder the airlines want you to pay for an endorsement, they know some have been doing it so long.

[bushy]

Let's look at the facts. This is a 400 metre airstrip, wide open to a marine environment, high temperatures and no cross strip.
It has a history of aircraft crashes. There would quite likely be a crosswind, and the margins are small. Probably not a good place to send a new pilot with a fully loaded C206.
Most new CPL holders are a bit out of their depth when they get their first job.(I know- I was one- I still remember) They still have a lot to learn, and a good CP will look after them for the first year or so. I remember seeing a C210 start to taxi with the baggae door open, a chieftain taxying with the flipper doors open and many other things. I owned a number of six seat pipers, and every one of them had a repaired nose locker door. Each one of them because a new CPL had forgotten to latch them before takeoff. Only pilots in their first year. They do it properly after that. When they get some of that magic EXPERIENCE.
Lets face it. The workload can be high, and pilots often feel intimidated by our authorities, and sometimes by their employer. It's not really a good idea to ask a new pilot to carry a full load into a 400 metre strip with a crosswind. It is Psychologically all very wrong, and scary, and pilots do not perform well under these circumstances.
Chimbu has it right. Pilots need to know that they have support from their employer.and should have trust in the regulator. Sadly this is not always the case.
I have been concerned about this for some time. Flying schools and aeroplane sales people will tell people how easy it is, and some "get rich quick" operators (and some flying schools) set up charter companies based on cheap pilot labour. (I recently had a pilot tell me I was paying him double what he got in his previous job)
Usually the integrity of the operator,and the integrity of his pilots is indicated by the wages he pays.
The main problem is that GA is not taken as seriously as it should be, by many of the pilots and operators, and our regulatory bodies. It is considered to be just a stepping stone to "real" flying.
GA IS real flying and has to be taken seriously. Much of the country (outside the J curve) depends on it. It cannot be properly done by just having a continual turnover of new pilots who do not intend to stay and develope the skills, and gain the knowledge, confidence, and self discipline that is required. These things are necessary and are not learned enough at flying school. That's why our bludging airlines recruit from GA, instead of doing the training themselves. That's why the airlines value EXPERIENCE.
I appreciate the young pilots must start somewhere, but there should be a clear career path they can take. If they want to be alrline pilots then they should go to the airlines and do all the psych tests etc, first, and then get a multicrew pilots licence and re-apply to the airline for more training and selection.(maybe within GA, but co-ordinated by the airline) l
And the GA pilots would do what they do now.
And everyone would know where they were going, or not going, and the "prostitute" pilots and operators would go away, This would make GA much more stable, better paid, and safer.
I wonder about the integrity of a system that permits the obscene lottery we have now.
Until this is fixed, we will have an unnecessarily high accident rate in GA.
I feel sorry for the young pilots who are caught up in all this chaotic system. I wish them well.

[bushy]

Dr Schmoo
This sort of thinking is exactly what I am talking about. Stuffups are NOT acceptable. That sounds like "stinking thinking"

That does not mean that you have to crucify anyone who makes a mistake. This particular pilot will probably be a better and wiser pilot as a result of his experience. He now knows it CAN happen to him if he lets it.
But we must try very hard to prevent such happenings.
Saying "stuffups will occur" could turn into a self fulfilling prophesy. It is the "wrong attitude" that I was talking about. Would you say that about a Boeing crash? and brush it off so lightly?

[the wizard of auz]

Hours really have little relevance in this sort of prang, I would have thought. Lets see.......... Four hour legs (or even two hours) that works into about ten landings (or twenty). maybe a few hours of circuits into a small or slightly less than average strip would have been in line. Mind you, the 206 isn't a space shuttle or a particularly difficult ship to master. :eek:

Bushy, when I'm landing an aircraft, the last thing I'm thinking about is my wages, what CASA think of me, what my employer thinks of me. I think one should be focussed enough for a landing that the mentioned issues really have little relevance. if your thinking about that sort of thing while landing an aircraft , especially on a tricky strip, you really don't have the self discipline to be operating one in the first place.

[ContactMeNow]

Just by going off the thread name...

Doesn't CASA say that only 40hrs TT is required to hold a PPL???

Food for thought...

CMN :ok:

[Continental-520]

...though I feel this comes down to a case of personal operating limitations rather than "What's the legal minimum I need to go flying?".

I'm not familiar with the airstrip in reference, but I can think of a few strips that I WOULDN'T take a heavy C206 into in a X-wind. But others with a bit more know-how may, and that's what I believe is called setting and maintaining one's own limitations (despite what the law may permit me to do based on my qualifications).

This concept is far from new, obviously. Whilst I acknowledge that the pilot involved did not set out with the intent of running off the runway, I do think he/she needs to learn (more than anything) to set his/her own operating limits based on his/her present experience level and standard of flying, which is a pure reflection of the standard of training. Sadly, as others, particularly Bushy have pointed out, the employer will quite often dictate the operating limits (or lack thereof) and the pilot is forced to in order to remain employed.

It is time that CASA or some other government body intervened with regard to air operators' workplace employment conditions and remuneration, even though such issues are far from our minds when landing or flying in general (as wizard of auz attests), in the end it does pose a rather poignant factor in the general standard of the whole operation, the operational decisions that new pilots make, along with everything else involved.


520.

[bushy]

Stress levels DO affect a person's performance and behaviour. And stress levels ARE raised, if a pilot does not have trust in the employer, and/or the regulator. And 400 meter airstrips would not help with the stress levels either.

New pilots often have fairly high stress levels.