Ardmore Flying school

[LocoDriver]

Anyone heard whats happning at Ardmore???

Rumours are rife that their part 141 has been suspended.-

:uhoh:

[mattyj]

Oh come on Loco..try to sound a little more sympathetic:E :E :E

[ZK-DAN]

----> insert sarcastic comment here <-----
Now, where did that long black get to?

[outboundjetsetter]

so whats happening then? are they trading? and if not why have they been suspended?

[LocoDriver]

It looks like flight testing is not happening..... some sort of paperwork
glitch with the part 141.- But training is carrying on as usual.

Thats all I know.

Now, back to that flat white..................

:ooh:

[Cloud Cutter]

There was a NMIT meeting last week. Perhaps it's something to do with that? I'm sure it will turn out to be a nothing.

[What time is ECT?]

If CAA (a.k.a. C.P.) are on the field then the rest of you need to get the coffee making skills up to scratch. C'mon guys - what about a great mochachino?
ECT?

[What time is ECT?]

Have done a bit of thinking while doing the day job.

If the biggest flying school in New Zealand has CAA on their back because of a paper-work issue, then what hope do the little fellers have? Most smaller aero clubs and schools do not have a full-time paperwork person, instead, have a volunteer instructor who spends nights and weekends catching up.

The issue is this. Does the Part 141 produce a better pilot? If the 141 training certification is this hard to get or maintain, then woe betide CAA to force every training orgainization to stop training under CAA 61/91 and use CAA 141 instead. It could force some of the smaller niche operators out of the market.

Maybe a seperate thread of 141 vs 61/91 would be appropriate.

ECT?

[zulu_kilo]

I wouldn't say that AFS is the biggest anymore, maybe the biggest 'open' school . CTC in HN seems to be much larger.

Anyhow, as of late yesterday (FRI) all ops back to normal. - That is inhouse checks AOK.

[mattyj]

Probably CAA booked an Audit with WS and on the day when they turned up..he was nowhere to be seen. Probably happened a couple of times (from experience) Probably they had to issue the infringment to get him to look up from his PC..probably.

Give him credit though..he does do a lot of intro flights??:confused: :confused:

[sir.pratt]

CTC is probably run the most professionally though - certainly from what i've seen on the ground.

shame about some of the newbies flying/awareness skills though

[clack100]

Having recently started flying out of Ardmore again, I have to take the time to express my dismay at the appalling standards displayed by those operating from AR. Ardmore Flying School especially should be ashamed of the extremely low standards of airmanship in the circuit environs. I suggest the young testosterone-oozing Ardmore-ites head out and spend some time watching other busy unattended airfields such as PP to see how those with manners and good airmanship share the circuit - none of this lining up in front of aircraft on short-finals and making them go-around or (in the case of the AFS CFI) barging around in a Duchess at full speed yelling at slower aircraft to get out of his way!! Professionalism does not exist at AR. Just rayban-clad buffoons in cars with AV8A number plates and bad attitudes.
You all need to take a look around and see how bad you really are. If you are not embarressed, then stay on the ground!!

[Wombat35]

Actually Clack,

I think it has got a lot better....

It really refreshing to see most of the instructors working together, having a drink at the aero club every now and then.

It's always going to be a difficult environment when you have twins, warbird's and 7GCBC's in the circuit however with a little co-operation everyone can enjoy themselves and get the job done.

I think as you mentioned, you are a bit surprised at the variation of traffic having been out of the area for a while. Either that or you just have a couple of chips on your shoulder :hmm: .

If I could suggest, perhaps you come down to the bar and announce your concerns, it's a good forum and we (yes I'm an instructor) would welcome you comments and possible suggestions as to how we could improve based off your experience.

Cheers

Wombat

[Cloud Cutter]

clack

I can certainly see you point re the attitudes of some at AFS, this is ingrained in the operation, and won't be changing any time soon. It's akin to the whole Auckland vs rest of NZ thing.

But I think you're being a bit naive with you commentary on the standards of AFS pilots. It is always going to be a challenge to integrate such a volume of inexperienced pilots into the busy Ardmore airspace, and I think by and large they do a pretty good job. I know several of the more experienced instructors there, and most have really good attitudes, and would integrate easily into any other operation. There are always one or two that give the whole lot a bad name.

[Itai101]

I must admit that I agree with Clack and the first part of Cloud Cutters sentiment. I've been on the receiving end of having aircraft deliberately send me around by pulling out on the runway. It is certainly not professional and obviously not safe but it it the attitude that concerns me the most. If it is instructors that do this type of thing what sort of students are they producing? And what is the future airline pilot attitude going to be. I can only hope that the airlines are smart enough to pick up on this attitude before hiring them.. I don't want to be sitting in the back with someone like that flying me. I agree that it is a bad attitude of Aucklanders in general.. and I can say that because I am one..For some reason the Armore attitude is one of a superiority complex.. which when compared.. as Clack points out... with other busy airfields is completly unjustified. I don't see a way out unfortunately.. the industry is one where the initial standards are taught and set by young inexperienced people being supervised by older unsuccessful people (OK.. its a generalisation but largely true). So long as cost is the focus this will always be the way. It is a shame CAA can't somehow come up with a system where the more "Aviation Successful" can be encouraged to put more back into the system from where they came. It doesn't necessarilly need to involve them jumping into a plane and flying but just imparting some level headed attitude and experience to slow down the Top Gun try-hards. I wish there was an answer..

[Wombat35]

Hi Itai101,

There is an answer, the more experienced need to educate the younger guys. The best place for this in my view is at the bar so why not come on down and speak up, sometimes putting a face to the person helps establish a good relationship.

I for one have not seen that type of attitude at Ardmore are you sure it was deliberate? If so you would remember the rego and if you'd like to PM me I'll take it up with them as it's not good airmanship. Did you raise it with UNICOM?

Not everyone out there is an unsuccessful pilot, however if you don't stand up and say hey this is unacceptable, then you are right, nothing will change.

I for one try and set a good standard at AR, whilst trying to get the job done so hey at least CIT won't pull out in front, well deliberately anyway :E .

At least thanks for taking the time to register and post.

Cheers

Wombat35

[Kermit 180]

A few will spoil it for everyone. It's not healthy, in my opinion, to judge a whole airfield or establishment based on the actions of one or two 'idiots'. Most of the experienced pilots and instructors on the airfield know each other, and there is a definite mutual respect amongst them. As Wombat said, pilots do actually meet each other socially at Ardmore, and it is then that issues can often be aired without any malice or anger. That's part of the airfield's culture. Instructors, charter pilots, recreational pilots, warbird pilots; they all mingle and most importantly, talk. There are quite a few younger instructors out there who might be keen to 'prove' themselves or express some authority, just as happens on the roads. It's a maturity thing, and those younger aviators need the guidance and supervision of their seniors.

Cheers.

[Itai101]

Well its nice to see some level headed response at least. I absolutely agree that it is a maturity thing. And while I take your point about making generalisations, unfortunately that is actually what everyone does and reasonably so. When you are out instructing (I assume you are one from your post) then you do your best to be professional, like Wombat.. and myself actually. However like all businesses you represent your establishment and as such, your establishment is only as good as its worst member. If you have a bad experience with any company.. lets pick Telecom.. just a random choice.. then after your bad experience you see telecom as a bad company.. at least most people do.. it is human nature to act this way. I'm not picking on AFS in particular.. as it happens it was an AFS 172 that did pull out in front on this particular occasion.. I would like to think that if the great communication and professional attitude you mention does exist then this type of action will be centured otherwise all your own efforts to be proffesional will be tainted.. annoying I know but its life. There is other annoying behaviour such as staying on the runway as long as possible to get to AFS .. once again.. only one or two idividuals but it brings the whole lot down. To be fair.. the fact that AFS does the most flying will also mean you have the biggest profile.. when I visit I have a higher potential to be behind one of you guys.. and I know this.. but again.. LIFE. Also.. your response hasn't runied anything for anyone.. everyone has their opinions and its nice to hear them in a level headed manner.

[Wombat35]

See this is one of the first steps.

As for rolling long, don't see much of that when there is high traffic and sometimes there are reasons for it. The twins for example have very low prop clearance so cannot make it off onto the grass. You just need to allow for it a bit, if you get behind them and if you get a bit close then why not take the grass?

That being said, if someone is rolling long they may not realise that you are on short finals, so just give a short finals call, not grumpy, maybe CIT short finals thanks mate.

If they make an effort I will always give a quick cheers, it's just like a wave in your car if someone helps you out.

One of the points I have raised is that you don't know if and aircraft is going to full stop until finals and this really makes spacing difficult. All I did was raise it with Unicom and a few experienced members and the word is now getting out to include "full stop" as part of your down wind call.

Bottom line is that we all need to set an example as no one is going anywhere, AFS, EAGLE, TECNAM, AAC and me and our students will only do as they see.... like all this steep turning on finals rubbish to lose height, but don't get me started on how dangerous that is... AFS you listening?

Cheers

Wombat

[LocoDriver]

I have been watching this thread(I started it) with interest....

A little off track shall we say, but good content!

one of the main problems at Ardmore is lack of situational awareness, coupled with arrogance on some parts.
Pilots are not making correct radio calls. ie, when downwind say intention, 'touch and go' 'fullstop' or whatever.

As for doing steep turn onto finals, well, that a recipe for 'stall, spin'crash. burn'die' for sure,and so un-professional.

Recently, I know of two 'first solo's that did go-arounds, one got cut off by a warbird(didnt listen to other radio calls) the second by AFS(same problem)
Not a good look for 1st solo's!

Some pilots need to take the blinkers off, and the cotton wool out of theirears.
Barging into the circuit is another favourite, remember aircraft established in the circuit(ie;flying three legs of the circuit) have right-of-way.
Joining overhead when busy would be far better.

Dont be too hard on dear old Ardmore Flying School, they are not that bad, but I do agree with previous comments about their young men in white shirts, a chip on the shoulder, ray-bans, and personalised numberplates.
They need to open their eyes and ears more when in the circuit.

Its the training(or lack of it) that is the problem at Ardmore.

Cheers.
:E :E

[haughtney1]

Well I suppose the more things change, the more they stay the same!

When I was at "Hardmore" 8 years ago (cos you had to use the radio..and stuff like that, which was tough for us country hicks) doing my CPL, it was no different, AFS had a reputation...similar to today. Of course there was that bloody awful orange/red tomahawk as well:E