Jestar/Qantas pay and the media

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Can someone put a comparison of A330 pay scales for both airlines on this thread? I find it very hard to believe the media reporting of these comparisons. For example, Geoffrey Thomas in Australian Aviation (October, page 114) is saying Jetstar captains will be getting $180,000 whilst Qantas A330 captains are on $280,000. I thought the $280,000 figure would have been applicable to 744 captains and that A330 captains would have been more like $220,000 whilst Jetstar would have realistically been paying around $160,000. On the other hand it has also beeen reported in the media that Qantas pilots are on $500,000. So what's the truth?

[keepemseperated]

Not sure if you will get too many responses, based on previous threads most guys are a bit hesitant to post those sort figures on such a public forum. The 500K seems a bit high, but who knows.
Whatever the real numbers are, you have to give it to Qantas/Jetstar for the way that they have got the info out there - true or not. Joe Public would read that sort of article and say - wow $180K that's pretty good coin, $280K for doing the same job, jeez those guys have got it good. Like it or not it is the world we live in, aviation is not what it once was.
At the end of the day $180K, $280K or $500K is a whole lot more than the average Aussie earns.

[an3_bolt]

The truth would be somewhere in between - nothing what is reported in the media is accurate - I would say it is fair to say that what has been reported in the media is in fact misleading.
I find it interesting that people like to compare a pilots wage to the wider Australian community. Reality is that aviation is global business, and really should be compared to the global stanadards.....you would find just like bankers and CEO's etc. Once you have the qualifications and the experience these days it is not diificult for a workforce to move globally to find the conditions and renumeration that they are after.
What I can tell is that the conditions and renumeration of the complete package for the big J is nothing short of bottom of the list in global terms. They work harder, and get payed less whilst being expected to be professional, than most coutries around the world. Not a long term prospect for any employee at any level of the company except the CEO levels. Even though slighly better, the complete conditions at Qantas are not that much better - but still behind the vast majority of first level carriers in the world.
Yes I have worked overseas in several coutries, and there is premium cut in terms of pay for the attraction of living and working in Australia. However, the conditions and pay one can expect overseas is far superior to that of Australia, and will become more and more attractive with even better conditions and pay as the global pilot shortage becomes more accute.
There are many arguements for and against regarding pilot salaries when compared to the domestic Aussie community. I will leave that to other people to bang out, but I will say and propose the question......if being an airline pilot is such a "great "deal with such "great" perks etc why is there a shortage looming, and why are no young people queueing up to be one?
It is a bit of loaded question really - and I am sure any airline pilot will tell you why.

[N2O]

Never let the "truth" get in the way of a good story!
A330 captains would have been more like $220,000
I believe this number would be quite accurate for a line captain, without allowances doing 160 "credited" hours per 56 days.
The most junior "Q"(seniority based, not intergration agreement) Captain on the A330 joined in 1989.
Check it yourself from wagenet.
http://www.wagenet.gov.au/WageNet/Search/View.ASP?docid=274249&query=(QANTAS%20TECHNICAL%20 AIRCREW)&quickview=Y (http://www.wagenet.gov.au/WageNet/Search/View.ASP?docid=274249&query=%28QANTAS%20TECHNICAL%20%20AIRCREW%29&quickview=Y)

The Jetstar agreement is here
http://www.airc.gov.au/alldocuments/PR969554.htm

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Various agencies post different amounts according to the spin they wish to impart.

500k is total, utter BS.

I have posted on this topic before. Discounting allowances and super, a QF 330 line captain who is currently flying a full roster and not doing any reserve (blank line) is on 215k plus any OT(not much on that fleet).

The divisor (hours paid for a roster) is at it's lowest due to outside factors and there are many pilots rotating from a blank line to a roster. Those pilots are generally getting less than 215k. There will be many more pilots rotating when the fleet loses four aircraft to Jetstar and some pilots will go to reserve lines and not get any roster. These pilots will be on 203k.

Those are the facts based on hourly pay rate and the divisor. I do not know the details of what Jetstar pilot get paid, whether or not it is an hourly or flat rate or what their allowances or super details are.

Allowances and super are not added because they can vary greatly from pilot to pilot, I assume this is the same for a Jetstar pilot and hence make it impossible for a direct comparison.

[N2O]

At the end of the day $180K, $280K or $500K is a whole lot more than the average Aussie earns.
Let the "average" Aussie step up to the plate then.

[Aussie]

What is average......?

Aussie

[king oath]

If I ever need open heart surgery I hope an "average" aussie won't be doing it.

What sort of p*ss weak argument is this "average aussie" crap, anyway. Stop smoking that stuff.

[Dynasty Trash Hauler]

AN 3 Bolt said this:

“What I can tell is that the conditions and renumeration of the complete package for the big J is nothing short of bottom of the list in global terms. They work harder, and get payed less whilst being expected to be professional, than most coutries around the world.”

Actually, some good friends of mine flying low cost in both Canada and the US are paid less than Jetstar flying the same aircraft. One mate works consistently 95 hours per month and clears about the same as a Jetstar pilot but lives in one of the most expensive cities in the world. New hires at airlines in Canada are on similar coin these days to Jetstar pilots. Australia is not alone in seeing pilot wages decline.

“Even though slightly better, the complete conditions at Qantas are not that much better - but still behind the vast majority of first level carriers in the world.”

Which first level carriers are you referring to?

[Holding on]

If the idiots at the Qantas Recruiting sheltered workshop won’t let me or others join the club after doing all that is required in GA – then I can only hope that those that have, will soon join those that have not!

Whinging Qantas Crew, get off your pedestals and stop blaming everybody for ruining your own T & Cs. Why shouldn’t we pursue a jet job with J* or VB. $160,000 living in a city sounds a dam site better than $20,000 living in a sh$t hole. You all expect us to stay in GA just because you can’t make your repayments on your beachside residences and negatively geared properties?

How about you lot grow some balls and speak with a common voice. Put your own lives on the line. Why should we care? The recent Cathay recruiting ban was another gutless exercise from those who have.

Do I have what it takes to be a Qantas pilot? Apparently not; but soon I won’t want to be. :hmm:

[blueloo]

Holding on, with your eloquent choice of words, one wonders whether you deserve your $20000 and sh_t hole.

[an3_bolt]

about the same as a Jetstar pilot but lives in one of the most expensive cities in the world

OK - lets start with the basics and work from there.......
Dynasty Trash - I am saddened to hear of your friends situation working for low cost carries in the Americas/Canada. I hear what you are saying loud and clear and I have empathy for their situation.

I do appreciate the emotive debate this can be. Perhaps we should all be working towards the common goal of improving our industry as a whole and as such everyone reaping the benefits ??

With regards to city expenses - there is a 2006 study conducted by Mercer - calculating the worlds most expensive cities for use by execs when setting salaries etc. This included apparently housing, food, clothing, transport, entertainment etc. So what did the survey say:
2006 most expensive cities
1 Moscow
2 Seoul
3 Tokyo
4 Honkytown
5 London
10 New York
17 Singapore
19 Sydney
28 Taipei
29 LA
34 San Fran
47 Toronto

Toronto was the only Canadian that made the top 50 and was down from 82 in 2005. Vancouver was 87 in 2005, although not in the top 50 I am sure it is in a similar trend to Toronto. New York is - well NY and the next closest in the US was LA right down at 29.

Sydney is actually moving up the rankings from 20 in 2005 to 19 in 2006, still in front of all of Canada and the US with the exception of NY.

On a good note - the qaulity of living survey by Mercer:
1 Zurich
2 Geneva
3 Vancouver
4 Vienna
5 Auckland
9 Sydney
15 Toronto
34 Singapore
39 London.

In any case - thankyou Dynasty Trash for raising the issue of those overseas.

[speeeedy]

Whooooooaaaaaaa holding on - calm now.

If the QF pilots suffer the demise that you so clearly hope for, then the Jetstar boys become the 'haves'.

I suppose then using your logic the GA guys who missed out will undercut them and so on.....

Guys miss out for a very simple reason, they were not good enough! Might have been a bad day, might have been other outstanding candidates to compete against etc etc, but the simple fact is - NOT GOOD ENOUGH.

Now to take glee in punishing those who did pass perhaps is the simplest explanation for why you failed, in fact just from that one post I can see many reasons why I wouldn't have you fly my jets, I guess the QF system works :ok:

[virgindriver]

Not quite right there speedy. I understand that if you missed out at the Rat you either weren't competitive at the time (more suitable candidates ahead of you), or your personality profile was not what they were looking for.

Quite a few of my friends didn't have the right profile to join the Rat but Cx thought they were just what they were looking for.

So, I wouldn't say simply- not good enough. Just my thoughts. I had the option of both but I liked the idea of early command at DJs and preferred their culture.

[DutchRoll]

OK, so how about this: DIDN'T MEET THE REQUIREMENTS. Boo-bloody-hoo, Holding on. Do you think all the ones who did are any less deserving than you? PM me your bank account details & I'll transfer $500 into it because I'm feeling sorry for you. On second thoughts.....

QF pilots like any others are entitled to try and retain their pay & conditions and not let the company drag them backwards with any tactics, let alone the ones they're using. You would do exactly the same in our shoes.

[speeeedy]

Virgindriver, I take your point, however the fact is that at its most basic level QF will pick the best they can get, that may include skills, smarts and/or personality. So essentially if you don't make it, it means that you were not good enough.

I'm not (and wasn't in my earlier post) having a go, I'm just explaining it in the most basic fashion.

A while back I wasn't picked in a footy team because I wasn't good enough, does it mean that I am a terrible footy player? No......just for those selectors I just was NOT GOOD ENOUGH, another team did give me a run though, BUT I can assure you it was not because I offered to play with no oranges at half time. Maybe Holding On should think about that.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

I reckon I know what Holding on is holding on to and by his post, I'd say it's pretty small too. How about we get back to the original topic?

[QFinsider]

Ahh "holding on", i will take my self funded, you know a HECS debt, flying in my spare time working full time, then working as a GA pilot, losing my job twice and finally getting the gig and let you to your rightful place. I signed a deal with the company, they reneg on all of us. I keep my part, I pass my checks in the simulator and on the line....They change the rules because the IR environment allows it. Guess I ought get off my pedestal too, hand you my Qantas job and whilst I am at it, take out my ohh so silver spoon...
You know whatever their standard is, it is a standard, hopefully J* has thiers. I will tell you though sonny take a chip off, lighten the load. :ok: Oh and in case you get discouraged, the two foot dwarf, AKA Joyce will love that attitude...

[Australia2]

Speedy,

Here's a bizarre thought for you,

Imagine being "good enough" for QF (I dont agree with your summation of success in this respect - an element of luck does exist) and LEAVING QF for better opportunities elsewhere !!

Someday you will understand,

Cheers Oz2:ugh: