SAA's a winner! not

[putt for dough]

SAA's controversial plan to get co-pilots flying
September 16, 2006 Edition 1

Sheena Adams

South African Airways is on the brink of introducing a radical new pilot training programme, which will see trainees taking their place as co-pilots after 70 hours actual flying time.

The bulk of the training - 250 hours - will take place in flight simulators, which allows trainers to slash actual flying hours in a real aircraft by more than half. SAA spokesperson Jacqui O'Sullivan has confirmed the details of the new programme.

The cost-cutting initiative is part of efforts by the national carrier to introduce more black people into its pilot ranks.

Called a Multi-Crew Pilot Licence (MPL), the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) is currently drawing up programme standards and regulations, which could be ready in mid-2007, according to Captain Colin Jordaan, general manager of SAA's flight operations.

However, pilot associations around the world, including the Airline Pilots Association of South Africa (Alpa-SA), do not support the MPL, saying the safety of passengers will be compromised.

Jordaan said in an interview this week that the initiative would fast-track the num-ber of black pilots employed by the national carrier. At present, the airline employs just 66 black men and women pilots out of a total of 796.

SAA's target, introduced in 1996, was to have 300 black pilots by last year.

Jordaan said the new type of licence would be "a heck of a lot cheaper" to imple-ment than the airline's cadet school, which costs SAA R750 000 per person for the intensive 18-month course.

SAA already owns four simulators required for the new training and would thus only be paying for electricity and maintenance costs, he added.

Jordaan said the airline was intrinsically involved in the ICAO steering group drawing up the MPL regulations and that information was fed regularly to the South African Qualifications Authority to ensure that the programme, when implemented, would comply with the country's training regulations.

"We will be able to take a person off the street and train them in our simulators for between 12 and 18 months.

"They will then be able to move into the right-hand seat of a Boeing 747 as co-pilot," Jordaan said.

He said the course would be designed specifically for airline flying and would not devote any time to "unnecessary aspects" such as using topographical maps.

The course would entail just 70 hours of flying time in a real aircraft as opposed to the 200 flying hours required in order to get a commercial pilot's licence.

MPL graduates would only be able to fly in a "multi-crew environment" for the first few years, he added.

Opposition to the plan has been widespread, with organisations such as the European Cockpit Association (ECA), representing 29 professional pilots' associations, saying that the MPL risks downgrading the standards of commercial flight training when aircraft are becoming increasingly complex and when air traffic is expected to rise substantially over the coming years.

"Downgrading of these standards can not be accepted in an industry that relies on a permanently increasing safety profile and which faces numerous challenges over the coming years," the ECA said.

Alpa-SA president Harvey van Rooyen said he was concerned that while simulations could be useful, weather patterns such as storms could not be simulated.

The new licence was "obviously about costs" and Alpa-SA did not believe that 18-year-olds off the street would be able to handle intensive pilot training.

More thought should be given to taking in university graduates who were PC literate and had certain "technical advantages", said Van Rooyen.

"It is a little bit of a leap forward and people are just assuming it will work but I have my reservations. Flying is not monkey see, monkey do. You need to create people who can think under pressure.

"You can't pluck a rabbit out of a hat and then say: 'There you go! Transformation has been sorted out'," he said.

Jordaan brushed off claims that SAA's programme would compromise aviation safety. He said today's aircraft design and training programmes placed emphasis on co-operation between crew members unlike "in the old days when all the decisions were made by the captain".

Co-pilots would spend 10 years in the right-hand seat of aircraft before attaining commander status, he added.



It's being taken to a new level ppl!
Brace yourselves.........

[Heli_Sticktime]

You know it's amazing, which ever way we turn our "leaders" make us look like ars*holes to the rest of the world, be it:
Education - dropping the standards to let PDs in
Health - Not providing enough hospitals
AIDs - Don't even go there...what a joke
Law - There is none
Justice - Huh, can we spell that?
And now...aviation:ugh:
Well I guess I will NEVER be flying the national carrier again:sad:

[CJ750]

:rolleyes: :rolleyes: :rolleyes:
I cannot believe that SAA can believe the ordinary public/ their passengers will go for this latest attempt to up the quota of non-white faces in the airline. It is bad enough that they employ nationals from other countries to fill spaces but now this. I wonder where SAAPA stand on this or are they protecting their latest "NEGOTIATED" salary increase . Where does CAA stand on this or are they just going with what they are dictated to as usual by the government/ ANC / SAA.

Having gone through the mill as most of us have i cannot comprehend that SAA management can get it in their heads to train someone in that short time and then put them in the right seat of a large transport aircraft and at the same time put 300 odd paying passengers lives on the line. We will be the laughing stock of the aviation world and South Africa's reputation will be further degraded.

How do the rest of the pilots feel at SAA . I feel sorry for the guys who really are trying to make a difference but how can they work like this. I believe that this attempt to fast track these people will lead to the down fall of the airline as people will not trust the experience of the crew. The public will not differentiate between the experienced captain and the inexperienced MPL co pilot.

I for one will not fly with a crew like that and will not let my family fly on SAA if this goes ahead. This is a sad day for SA aviation and South Africa.

[Q4NVS]

Just to set things straight - This MPL is not spearheaded by SAA (as the SAA Bashers would like to believe).

In fact, it was originally "designed" in Australia..:eek:

The format of this license has been under discussion since last December by the 18-member ICAO Flight Crew Licensing and Training Panel (FCLTP), which includes representatives from 14 countries as well as from IAOPA, IATA, IBAC and IFALPA.

CJ750, as far as I can gather there is obvious objection the world over, and rightly so. But if it gets the nod, you will have to consider also not booking your family on European and Asian Airlines either, as they are mostly in on it as well...:uhoh:

[Gilksy]

It's being taken to a new level ppl!
Brace yourselves.........

Well put!
I still cant picture the logistics of it...

1. So these cadets will go from 30 hours on a sceneca I to cojo on a 737?!?

2.What will some other countries have to say about aircrew of foreign aircraft entering their airspace with 70 hrs actual flying time? Im sure the FAA will have a cadenza! (ICAO approved or not)

3.The article stated how important co-operation between the crew was. How much faith could you have in such an inexperienced co-pilot's decision making ability?

Perhaps someone could enlighten me?:confused:

Gilksy

[Flyer14]

What a load of horse****. What in the world are they smoking at SAA? Most of those super pilot cadets that they have can barely hack it in a Dash 8 after 200 hrs how can they ever hope to go straight into a 738, A319 without some kind of balls up!. This is utter rubbish. MPL? The only thing MPL stands for is Micro-light pilot license - full stop. I am non-white pilot and I am glad that the situation in this country allows me to fly and fulfil my dream. However, I do not believe in fast tracking or other crap like this MPL junk. I'm gonna enjoy my career and come up like everyone else should who wants to be in the airlines. I've done my bit instructing and contract flying is next. Seeing at what SAA is talking about I don't think I would ever want to work for them!:*

[Ketek400]

This is the beginning of the end!!!

All we have to do if this happens is let the public know. This will empty all the seats. No way I would let any of my friends or family fly like this, even if it there is a senior capt at the controls.

What happens if he becomes incapacitated!

This is it! You cant bring the standards to the people, the people have to come up to standard!!!!

[George Tower]

I seem to recall that it is not only SAA that are behind this initiative - if my memory doesn't deceive me Lufthansa are also keen go down this route.
If you look at my posts you will see that generally I'm no fan of SAA but it seems you can't slag off SAA for what is an ICAO initiative.
Ultimately it seems that training captains are the only folks who can give an opinion as to whether 70 hours in a sim is better than 200 hours in small single engine aircraft - lets face it hour building is what an individual makes of it. And then with 200 hours your legal to carry pax.
Again thats not to say the 200 hour guys cant fly - they do very successfully in major european carriers.
SA has its problems but lets not be purile about banging on about SAA - if i sound holier than thou im in a crap mood but its fair comment i think

[Rude Boy]

It's absolutely pathetic. The fact that ICAO and a lot of the world's major airlines are even considering this rubbish is mind blowing. If they are looking for crew to fill the gaps being generated by this airline boom and orders flurry, why don't they get their heads around the blindingly obvious fact that there are thousands of qualified, eager and in most cases highly competent pilots plying their trade in the dark corners of the contract and charter world(we wouldn't be doing it if we didn't meet all three criteria). This doesn't solve the previously disadvantaged issue, but that is more of an SA scenario than a general world situation.
This trend of getting pilots to buy their way into their jobs with ratings etc is setting an unacceptable precedent and is creating a massive black hole effect that is destroying any prospect of sustainable supply and demand in the industry. The airlines need to wake up, cut the $&%@, and utilise the resources that are literally beating a path to their doorsteps (albeit, increasingly to no avail).
Who in their right mind honestly believes that sticking some 70 hour peanut in the right seat of a jet is a sensible thing to do?! It's only going to lead to a shift away from balanced crew resources on board and place the emphasis back on the shoulders of the P1. Steaming ahead to our previous blunders. The new breed of 'MPL' holders would be quite happy to have their bums in the hot seat, but then they wouldn't really know any better, would they? It's akin to dropping the exam standards because too many people find it difficult. It's difficult for a reason! Numbnuts!!!
The industry needs to show some solidarity, keep the flow of resources moving in both directions, and just maybe the bottom dwellers will rise to the occasion.

[Gauteng Pilot]

Another reason I wont ever fly SAA, or ever reccomend it

[saywhat]

Good God, just think, just now we'll have aeroplanes with no flight engineer. How unsafe will the skies be then!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! I will rather swim across oceans in future..................... NOT!!

[bianchi]

"SayWhat"

Sadly the era of the flight engineers at SAA came to an end with the fasing out of the B747 Classic of SAA in April 2004. "They"(flight engineers) were an excelent bunch to work with !
So......since April 2004 till present,if you were on any SAA flight, then you were flying on a "non flight engineer aircraft"! And so far all aircrafts(flights) have reach there destination safely on a daily basis, so u're ok to continue flying aircrafts without"good old flighties"!

I am !!

[CJ750]

Just to set things straight - This MPL is not spearheaded by SAA (as the SAA Bashers would like to believe).

In fact, it was originally "designed" in Australia..:eek:



CJ750, as far as I can gather there is obvious objection the world over, and rightly so. But if it gets the nod, you will have to consider also not booking your family on European and Asian Airlines either, as they are mostly in on it as well...:uhoh:


Q4NVS thanks for the heads up but i feel that i have to bash SAA on this one. I may be wrong but i feel they are using this as a fast track for the PD's and i for one will not fly on their airline if this comes about and definitely will not let my family either.

As bianchi pointed out to all of us there are no flight engineers anymore so can you imagine a new MPL with an incapacitated captain sorting out a damaged aeroplane with your family on board. I don't care if he/she has had the best sim instructor in the world there is no way with that level of experience the new MPL will be up to it.

Oh another thing i do not obviously work for SAA so fortunately i cannot afford to send my family overseas at all like most SAA pilots can so if i do fly myself and my family locally it will be with any airline other than SAA as long as they are not using this MPL :mad: %$#@!*&^%%%%:mad:

[Airforce1]

Jordaan said in an interview this week that the initiative would fast-track the num-ber of black pilots employed by the national carrier. At present, the airline employs just 66 black men and women pilots out of a total of 796.

Is that figure correct, can someone from SAA comment, and I want to know the total pilots of colour....must be more than 66????

Seems everything is going haywire in South Africa,just look at the medical side of SA, halfway through studying your MbCHB you can now choose to follow and complete normal medicine to be a GP, or go natural medicine and officially be a qualified Sangoma. Theres safety for you!-not just in aviation:eek:

Cockpit talk in 2008: "so which street corner were you picked up from to start your career" ............People will think very highly now of pilots now

[ChiyaWena]

FANTASTIC!!!!!! what a brilliant idea, dunno why anyone hasn't thought of it before!!! it's the perfect solution!!!

oh...........no........hang on, maybe because it's insane!!!

having someone sitting in the right seat of a 'wide body' aircraft when this person has only got 70 hours actual flying time is pretty crazy. yes, i know they will have all that wonderful "i can save the world" sim time but come on!!! we don't fly 350 people around in sim's do we.

and with regard to training them into the airline scene for the get go, fine, but then we might as well not bother with our plotting exams, and half the rest of that crap that we have to study for in the exams. i'm pretty sure we all agree on the point that half the stuff we study for in the CPL/ATPL exmas is pointelss and we will never use much of it during our career. but it's a phasing out process, those you aren't dedicated enough, don't pass. simple, and those that do want it bad enough, pass, and those are the people that we want to be flying aircraft around.

i certainly hope this no-brainer scheme doesn't get the go ahead, i'm pretty sure that there are plenty of school kids interested in flying but then when they see what is actually required of them, they back away from it. but if this scheme goes ahead, then it makes it so much easier for anyone to fly. and we end up with a bunch of fools flying planes because it's a 'cool job' and not becuase it's something they have always wanted to do!! the ticket buyers pay good money to have the best people available to do the job, i'm sure they'd love to know that the person who's life their hands are in, has been fast tracked to save a buck.

it's absolute insanity!!! i think a well timed article in the sunday times will be read with great intertest by the SA public.

[congoman]

Relax guys. Lets see where they're going to find the training captains and PI's to train these guys - let alone the simulators. The simple fact is they don't have enough simulators to do the SAA recurrency/IF ratings AND train these dodos. They would have to send them all overseas - at a huge cost.
Personally I'll be very surprised if they get any training staff at all to partake in this hair-brained scheme. Anybody whose been through the system can tell you this idea is dead in the water - no matter what country it's tried in.
Yes - there are very low time F/O's in places like Singapore, Korea etc but those guys were all trained intensively on singles multis and Learjets BEFORE going to the 747 simulator.
Clearly the guys making these suggestions don't really have a clue.
This idea is obviously political, therefore devoid of any understanding for what the job really entails. Any management guy that backs this scheme is obviously doing so for another agenda and should do a tour of duty as a training captain to gain some insight for what he's proposing.:yuk: The stress it's going to put on the poor captain is going to be incredible:eek: . It's sure to cause an uprising. Eventually the aircraft insurance companies are going to get involved and ultimately it will be them (and the migration of passengers) that will put an end to this nonsense.
What I think is behind this idea internationally, is a realisation of the looming pilot shortage. They know its coming and are looking for a quick fix.

[CJ750]

Hi guys i typed "Multi Crew Pilot Licence" into GOOGLE and came up with these 2 sites worth reading. Let me know what you think
:=



AIN Online: ICAO mulls multi-crew pilot license proposal (http://www.ainonline.com/issues/11_04/11_04_icaomullsp78.html) The proposal, for a multi-crew pilot license (MPL), is the subject of intense argument and is creating divisions among providers of airline flight crew ...
www.ainonline.com/issues/11_04/11_04_icaomullsp78.html - 17k - Cached (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:qJn0GISFTAwJ:www.ainonline.com/issues/11_04/11_04_icaomullsp78.html+multi+crew+pilot+licence&hl=en&gl=za&ct=clnk&cd=1) - Similar pages (http://www.google.co.za/search?hl=en&lr=&q=related:www.ainonline.com/issues/11_04/11_04_icaomullsp78.html)European Cockpit Association Website - Multi-Crew Pilot Licenses ... (http://www.eurocockpit.be/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=409&Itemid=267) ICAO is going to propose the adoption of a new type of license, the Multi-Crew Pilot License. The objective of this development is to reduce drastically the ...
www.eurocockpit.be/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=409&Itemid=267 - 23k - Cached (http://66.102.9.104/search?q=cache:ky6Y5Oa1a1QJ:www.eurocockpit.be/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D409%26 Itemid%3D267+multi+crew+pilot+licence&hl=en&gl=za&ct=clnk&cd=2) - Similar pages (http://www.google.co.za/search?hl=en&lr=&q=related:www.eurocockpit.be/index.php%3Foption%3Dcom_content%26task%3Dview%26id%3D409%26 Itemid%3D267)

[corkscrew]

South Africa still has a very active general aviation sector where all pilots start out and work themselves up the ladder. This isn't the case in many european countries and most of Asia where sometimes there is no general aviation and therefore no pool of experienced GA pilots to choose from. Hence why they've come up with this multi crew licence.
We certainly dont have this problem here in SA and the pool of experienced general aviation pilots is extensive to say the least!

If the goverment want more PD individuals sitting in Boeing's then they could sponsor them their comm licences though some sort of programme and let them WORK themselves up the general aviation ladder up to the airlines like everybody else in this country!:ugh:
When are they going to understand that transformation cant take place overnight!!!

(lets see... here we have a 1900 captain with 4000hrs and this little dude with 70hrs and an MPL licence. Mmmm.... I think we'll go for Sipho, he should be fine. These Airbuse's fly themselves anyway.:{ )


God help us all... Please.

[3rdBogey]

Pilot shortage....? Where have I heard that before?.... E.K. Gann maybe...1940's....?? T.Block, 1980's 1990's? Mmmmm... These folks knew about flying and trashed the idea then already. Or maybe not!
Pilot shortage implies 'supply and demand' apple sums. So, we are in for rather good pay-hikes then? I think not!
The day a pilot shortage has a reality in terms of supply and demand is the very day Hell freezes over!
Forget the concept in its entirety! Will never happen.Period!
More 9/11's, SARS, Bird flu -chasing away of pax, yes, that is certain to happen. Less demand for pilots, yes, that you CAN bank on. Forget the rest. Pipe dreams, of note.

[Sir Osis of the river]

My post on the Parallel thread on Rumours and News stands.

Come on "Joe Line Captain". Let's hear what you guys think about this abysmal turn in South African Aviation. I am sure you poor guys are just as worried as the rest of the flying public about this attempt by the powers that be to end all your careers prematurely. Sterkte Manne.

[phlop]

What a scary state of affairs! SAA management may now think it will save them money but it won't be long before the MPL wonder wants the same remuneration as the ATPL. Their bargaining tactics may well get a little tricky. Perhaps a read of Captain Carl Jensen's recent article in SA Flyer on the importance of a good First officer would persuade them to change course. This course though is heading for disaster and it is tantamount to a pilot incapacitation on every flight when it should normally never occur once in a pilot’s career.
Please announce the date of commencement, SAA, so that I can stop using your once superior outfit. I have just cut my platinum Card up. The travelling public will in all probability have their say as well - with their wallets. RIP

[phlop]

What a scary state of affairs! SAA management may now think it will save them money but it won't be long before the MPL wonder wants the same remuneration as the ATPL. Their bargaining tactics may well get a little tricky. Perhaps a read of Captain Carl Jensen's recent article in SA Flyer on the importance of a good First officer would persuade them to change course. This course though is heading for disaster and it is tantamount to a pilot incapacitation on every flight when it should normally never occur even once in a pilot’s career.
Please announce the date of commencement, SAA, so that I can stop using your once superior outfit. I have just torn my platinum Card up. The travelling public will in all probability have their say as well - with their wallets.RIP SAA

[congoman]

I understand your frustration 3rdbogey but think of it - why is there a move worldwide to extend the retirement age? SAA was 58 then 60 and now 63.
Some countries in Europe and even the States I am told are about to extend it to 65. Most ME and far eastern airlines have a high percentage of western crew. With the rapid expansion of those airlines they simply dont have enough of their own pilots to crew their airlines. That's why this 70hour/simlator nonsense came about. It's NOT a South African inovation as someone has already pointed out.
What gets me is why SAA has to pay for the governments BEE drive. No wonder they cant make a profit. Why doesn't the goverment simply reinstitute the subsidy system like we had years ago? It worked very well.
Those deemed to be deserving had their training costs reimbursed when they achieved the qualification. The banks were happy to grant a loan on that basis. So the student had ample motivation. If he didn't pass then he was liable for repaying the loan. It's time the government picked up the tab for their PD pilots training and not rely on the airlines.

[Deskjocky]

Seems Colin is really trying to be the next CEO- has he forgotten where he came from???

Aside form the insanity of this whole idea, I really don’t think its going to wash too well with SAA’s VERY ORGANISED flight deck union. Unlike the rest of the industry these guys have got their stuff together- they have the power and they will use it if they have to. IMHO this development is a direct threat to the longevity of everyone’s career and thus will be fought tooth and nail and I have no doubt that the pressure created will result in this insane plan being quietly shelved - and rightly so. Nuff said

[Beta Light]

Lets look at the reason for the so called shortage of pilots in S.A. - Racial recruitment. Well qualified pilots HAVE to leave the country as they are told “sorry, we need people of colour and females."

S.A.A. might not be the father of this scheme, but they sure want to use it for the wrong reasons. Maybe the country's who invented this scheme really could not find the numbers they were looking for at home, but come on S.A.A. ... if you are so short, when last have you employed , or even interviewed, a pale male over 35 ( not to mention 40 )with lots of experience, and yes , there is a queue of them waiting to join.

This is a political move, happens to suite the bean counters as well.

I had an e-mail from a friend who is in management at S.A.A. advising me to not use his flysaa address, as he won't be in the office much longer. His complaint, or rather insight, is that this is step one in a process. Management will try to keep all incidents involving M.P.L's from the public, and if they don't have a major incident in 5 years the Government will then push for more representative Captains, and guess who will be looking good for the job.

P.S. fluffy fan and gang, hope you have an upgrade date within the next 5 years.

[Floofy]

Howzit guys !
I can not agree more with you okes - this sucks. i think that this is a major threat to everybody outside an everyone inside (crew) SAA.
It keeps us strugglers out of SAA and it will definately take away a serious amount of command upgrades away from the FO`s in SAA.:= I have read the article on the internet and there ALPASA clearly states that they are totally against it.Good luck to the Cappies at SAA who suddenly will have to play instructors as well....:ugh:

[congoman]

You've got a good point Beta Light. Wait until someone gives this idea to Manto Shabalala. The medical equivelant will be for PD prospective doctors to specialise in brain surgery before they qualify in medicine. No point in them studying all those years for something they'll never use - rather get them straight into the thick of things working on brains or orthopedics or whatever.
:E

[Afriviation]

Hi All, I'm back from detention, as early as June actually but I've been keeping a low profile. I couldn't resist replying on this thread. I'm glad I didn't start this one, perhaps that will save me from being chucked out of pprune this time around. Interesting to see that these topics do surface even though the so called politician has been gagged.

I think this sort of training is already taking place in France where the focus from the beginning is to train the pilot for a multi crew airline environment. It does make a lot of sense for airlines to save costs and for the students as they probably get indoctrinated in Airline Operating Procedures, Jet Engine Operations, Glass cockpits and the like. You at least do not have to deal with the unlearning. It certainly is the answer in this country and for SAA to be able to fast track transformation which has been steam driven thus far

Colin I salute you, keep up the good work

[Afriviation]

Hi All, I’m back from solitary confinement, I believe back in June already but I’ve been keeping a low profile. As you would expect it would irresistible for me not to reply to this thread. I’m glad I didn’t start it, perhaps that will save me from marching orders or on second thought the fact that I’m on the other side of the fence will prompt HP’s ferocity and me back on the street.

I think the French are already dong this sort of training. It makes a lot of sense both financially and logistically. The student is geared toward the Multi Crew Airline Operational environment from the word go and therefore the training is focused.
There is very little unlearning to be done as there’s no steep transitions eg from piston to Jets. The fact of the matter is that Aviation has evolved, but the training methods have not kept up

So what’s the fuss about? This will certainly go a long way in fast tracking transformation which has been steam driven, something I’ve griped about in this forum, this country’s aviation sector needs it and yesterday.

Perhaps Comair can take a few pointers here, I believe they have been put on a shame list by the Department of Labour with regard to their Employment Equity disastrous performance.

So Thumbs up Colin and keep up the good work.

[Afriviation]

Sorry for the dbl post I thought the 1st one didn't go through. Anyway the second one has abit more

[ByAirMail]

Oohh!! The dreaded shame list!! The government should worry about THEM being on the International shame list as was discussed in Singapore this weekend.
But then you have to read the international newspapers to know about it. We can never publish that in our own newspapers now can we; I mean World Cup 2010 and all to think about.

Naughty Comair!!

[ByAirMail]

Sorry Rapport did touch on it, did not cover the full discusion, but close enough.

Sorry to the non Afrikaans speakers.

http://www.news24.com/Rapport/Sake-Rapport/0,,752-803_1999602,00.html

[reptile]

P.S. fluffy fan and gang, hope you have an upgrade date within the next 5 years.

...............but don't hold your breath. :ouch:

[ChiyaWena]

AFRIVIATION just because you were booted off and now allowed to say your bit again, doesn't mean you have to act like you lost your brain when you were gone. or were you kicked off for saying really dumb things in the first place.

nice on brother, you can salute your mate colin and give him all the thumbs up you want, but you'll be on your own, let us know what that's like.

just think about what you are supproting for a second, only one second, because that's how long it takes the rest of the pilots in SA to realize it's not going to work.

come on man, wake up!!!!!!

[fluffyfan]

So do I ;) .........but like most South Africans I have a back up plan just incase, so not too worried.

[putt for dough]

I cant say that I agree with this MPL story.
It seems that this is a hot topic and won't be resolved
quickly. If they beat the union on this one, lets just hope
that SAA will be able to maintain their safety record. What are the chances:hmm:
I for one don't flysaa and would never encourage anyone
that I know to do so either.

I think that everybody from the public (paying passenger public)
that I have spoken to, can't believe that this MPL story
can come to fruition, they are all shocked and say that if
it happens they won't fly with saa. Who knows what will happen?

[fluffyfan]

Why stop with pilots licences........I recon they should start a SA space programme, no testing of design required who needs all those insignificant steps it just slows things down and it must be racisit because its stopping people of colour becoming astronauts, just make the thing, strap some crew of acceptable racial type in the top and press lift off, problem solved.

[FlyingPassion]

This is a completely unsatisfactory and unworkable plan. It must rank as the number one dumb:mad: s (dumb@s) idea from the original factory of dumb:mad: s (dumb@s) ideas!! So, a guy who paid his dues, paid his fee's, some of them from the school of hard knocks, earned his seniority, etc. must now continue to fly the aircraft on his own while some AA type snotty, who was not even affected by apartheid, because hey, guess what?!! THAT DIED 16 YEARS AGO!!.....Gets to sit in the right hand seat and look important, having all the fun and , if he sits there long enough (say 3-5years) he gets the LEFT seat, extra bars on his jacket and is lord over all he surveys!! This will spell the end for SAA and any other clowns who try this "brilliant idea". We need something else NOW before Branson steps in with "Virgin South Africa" as the new national carrier. This we dont need as, just like the current ruling party, he appears to be the great "man on a white horse" while he puts everybody in competition out of business. Incidentally, all the airlines in SA have study schemes, bursaries, plans, etc. for their employees, should any of them feel the need or want to study law, psychology and other such claptrap. Try getting a bursary for flight training out of one of them!

[Desperate Wannabe]

Ha Ha Ha :D :D :D Love your work fluffyfan
I'm pulling up front row seats for this one:ok:
Laaaaaaaadies and Gentlemeeen, in the other corner :ouch:

[ChiyaWena]

nice one fluffyfan, i think the SA space program will be winner. heck, if we are going to be cutting out important training steps, lets not teach the space cadets how to land!!!

coz this MPL thing borders on that!!!

[Stayinalive]

Time again SAA goes back 30 yrs and denies any other carrier a living.
Designed only to put competition down and take a bigger stranglehold on the tax payer again. So I suppose that SAA will be the only entity in this country that will be allowed to carry out this criminal act with the SACAA's blessing.
Time that the public stop supporting SAA and put some effort into supporting the likes of 1 Time , Comair , Kulula and others. The rest of us have to slog on while the undeserved get the breaks?
General public....if only you knew.

[SIC]

I hunker for the days when you started on a Tiger Moth and ended on a 747. And you WORKED your way up. Through thunderstorms and dirt strips and REAL experience that scared the SH&* out of you at times as opposed to a simulator that couldnt scare a baby in 240 hours.

Alas those day are gone and the conspiracy of clarks ( management ) who are only interested in the victory of the robotic cloned buttonpushers over pilots with a personality and some independant thinking is complete!!

I am goin to quit soon and buy a fishing boat like Ernest Gann did - now thats work for an independently minded man.:mad:

[Frogman1484]

Not even the lowest of the African airlines would pull such a stunt. This remeinds me of the CEO of sax who one day asked "Why do we need 2 pilots to fly the Dash8. Can't we just use one!":ugh: :ugh: :=

[ERASER]

SAA might be "leading" this MPL-story in SA, but they are hardly the world leaders in this process. Across the world it’s already starting, SQ/Alteon Beta project is about to start. Alpha Aviation has ordered aircraft and a simulator for their MPL programme in the Philippines (to train initially Kingfisher & Deccan ab-initios). Many others are in advanced stages of preparation.
SAA is just the monkey at the end of the government chain which they yank regularly and SAA must perform..............hats off to those guys and gals at SAA (all levels) that have to endure a "bright idea" from "somebody" high up...no matter the cost......:mad:

As the government turns on the heat with the BEE policies, all the other domestic airlines will follow the same route. This is really bad BAD news for safety......but a cheap way to get the PD pilot totals right is SA..:yuk:

Hands up for those who feel this MPL process should start with the government B737BJ !!

E

[divinehover]

A SAAPA press statement

"The SAA Pilots’ Association wishes to express its concern regarding the article relating to pilot training which was published in the Saturday Star and Cape Argus on 16 September 2006 under the heading “SAA’s controversial plan to get co-pilots flying”. The article in question creates the false impression that SAA is about to adopt new training methods as a cost cutting measure. This, as well as some other statements made in the article, is factually incorrect.
The article in question refers to the introduction of a new pilot licence called a Multi-Crew Pilot Licence (MPL). It would appear that there is an international trend towards developing qualifications for multi-crew licences. As yet, there is no provision in South African legislation for multi-crew licences although such legislation may be considered in line with international standards. SAA and SAAPA have not yet begun to discuss the introduction of multi-crew licences.
SAAPA is justifiably proud of the safety record achieved by SAA pilots, who are internationally renowned for their high standards and we will continue to ensure that these high standards are maintained.
The Cadet pilot programme which SAA has been operating for many years has been very successful, although very costly to SAA. If a means can be found to produce the same high calibre pilot at a lower cost, then this must be investigated. However, it is unthinkable that SAAPA would support a process that would reduce safety standards. Any changes made to pilot licensing must preserve or improve upon existing flight safety levels and pilot organisations throughout the world will be monitoring the process carefully to ensure that there is no degradation in safety standards. – Captain Jimmy Conroy, SAAPA Chairman”

[Frogman1484]

A SAAPA press statement

T[/I]he Cadet pilot programme which SAA has been operating for many years has been very successful, although very costly to SAA. If a means can be found to produce the same high calibre pilot at a lower cost, then this must be investigated.

The one thing that they forget, is that you cannot replace experiance with money. If you look at airline that run a cadet program, you will also find that the cadets run into problems when they come to command. A lot of them do not reach the standard for command as they do not have the experiance of having done the time flying light aircraft, thinking for them selves and developing theis survival instinct. :ok:

I'm sorry to say but you will not produce the same calibre pilot from a program like that!!!

[Avvy]

You can defend SAA all you like but if there was going to be one airline that would latch onto this ludicrous idea, guess who it would be…?:suspect: