Crew fatique in Low Costs Carriers

[orgasmotron]

Not being a fatique expert, but buy listening to the guys operating for 1 Time, I wonder how long can a safe operation be sustained if crew keep getting rostered to FDP limits over a lengthy period of time. I believe they are only allowed their legal 8 days off with flying often over 80 hours a month. This seems to be a common trend amongst low cost carriers. I have always been a contract pilot and does not have any exposure to long term fatique since I have rarely exceeded 80 hours a month and then mostly due to flying reasonably long sectors. Anybody with some more insight into these practises ?

[Phenomenon]

I think alot of companies, and not only airlines, abuse the FDP laws for their own benefit. Even by staying in FDP you can very easily become extremely fatigued and overworked. And most companies answer to this issue would simply be:

"But you're not over FDP."

On contract I have had months where I have flown up to 100 hours a month and this is a very often the case in some companies. They need to realise that pilots are only human and that we can't work 12 hours a day 5 or 6 days a week!

FDP is a guideline for the maximum duty and flight hours and not the minimum hours! I agree some companies need wise up and realise that just because pilots are aloud to fly up to 100 hours a month and up to 8 hours a day doesn't necesarily mean that we can!

[Speevy]

Southwest in the States has been doing it for over 30 years and EZY and FR are doing it with very good safety records!
The big difference is the type of FTL in UK they are excellent and they take in consideration many factors and are the outcome of a thourogh scientific research!
Can you say the same about RSA.
Good luck and good Flying Speevy

[philby737]

I think alot of companies, and not only airlines, abuse the FDP laws for their own benefit. Even by staying in FDP you can very easily become extremely fatigued and overworked. And most companies answer to this issue would simply be:

"But you're not over FDP."

On contract I have had months where I have flown up to 100 hours a month and this is a very often the case in some companies. They need to realise that pilots are only human and that we can't work 12 hours a day 5 or 6 days a week!

FDP is a guideline for the maximum duty and flight hours and not the minimum hours! I agree some companies need wise up and realise that just because pilots are aloud to fly up to 100 hours a month and up to 8 hours a day doesn't necesarily mean that we can!

I agree, its about time that the CAA looked a little more closely at this issue. I know of carriers who regularly abuse F&D limits and miniumum rest periods under the guise of crew shortages, yet they are not proactively dealing with said shortage. Even if one is within the daily FDP limit no account is taken for the amount of sectors flown nor the increased workload on shorter sectors during a duty period. If the number of hours flown over a twelve month period exceeds and average of 80hrs per month with little time off, just imagine how the poor bugger feels :eek: :zzz: :zzz: :mad:

[Stan Woolley]

The big difference is the type of FTL in UK they are excellent and they take in consideration many factors and are the outcome of a thourogh scientific research!

Yea right and as a low cost pilot in the UK I earn a million pounds a year and have a company Ferrari and of course free use of the company's King Air on days off(ie most days).

Me? Cynical? Noooooooo!:ugh:

[Speevy]

Stan, I don't understand your post.
If you were trying to say that the UK ftl are not that great, ok that's your opinion, if you are saying that in UK we are payed more than in RSA, don't know cannot compare...
But for sure I can tell you that low cost in Europe it's hard work but I don't feel as tired as when I was contract flying in Africa...
Speevy

[Stan Woolley]

Speevy

I'm sorry but you are the only person in twenty years of flying both charter and low cost here in the UK that has ever described CAP 371 as 'excellent'.

Everyone I know regards the scheme as outdated at best.

You might say it's better than some other schemes but I have seen it applied (apparently legally) in ways which adversely affected the health of many colleagues so you'll forgive me if I don't join in the celebrations.

[blueline69]

Excuse my ignorance , but could you explain CAP 371 ? :confused:

Know from friends that some of the SA lowcost carrires work their crew to dangerous levels. Guys are doing 95hrs in some months , late in at night , minimum rest and out the next day again. FDP minimum rest needs to be seen and addressed in a more serious light by the CAA. :ugh:

Doesn't Comair have a minimum of 12hrs rest between flights ?

[Q4NVS]

Even if one is within the daily FDP limit no account is taken for the amount of sectors flown nor the increased workload on shorter sectors during a duty period.

Maybe it's just us, but our FDP is calculated and influneced by both Sign-on Time as well as Number of Sectors flown... As far as I know that is prescribed by SACAA, so I don't understand your point..?

:ok:

[reptile]

philby...I agree with Q4VNS. Daily FDP is dependant on your start time and the number of sectors you fly. Example - sign on at 0900 for 4 sectors would allow you a maximum FDP of 11:45. If you sign on at 0900 for 6 sectors you maximum FDP is 10:15.

[Speevy]

As I said Stan, it's your opinion, maybe CAP 371 it's not excellent, but tell me one FTL that is better than the english one...
I am not English and I experienced FTL from many different CAA and in Europe I think it's the best option, that's why BALBA fought with EASA for FTL with similar strocture while other members were pushing for more relaxed ones....
Remember in Europe the CAP 371 it's one of the few that it's an outcome of a scientific study while in other CAA they just put down what they like (or what their airlines like).
You said it's not excellent, ok, but in my opinion it's compared to others, try to work in Italy for example...
Speevy

[unablereqnavperf]

Having just spent 6 years flying for a European low cost carrier I can tell you there is nothing more fatique inducing. I've now had 6 weeks with a long haul carrier and am just starting to feel human again. Even though as has been mentioned the FTL's are good the constant sleep deprivation starts to take its toll. Ftl's in low cost carriers are targets and not limits and thats where the problems lie. I have in the past supported the Low cost cariers but I've now seen the light so to speak. I've never been afraid of hard work but it has to have an objective,when that objective is to continually reduce tickets prices and raise share prices then i have to question the viability of the whole thing. Something in the equation has to give and that is almost always saftey.

Acountants need to fix a price on things to balance their calculations, and as there is no direct profit on the balance sheet saftey is the item that will suffer. It is only a major accident that will alter this mind set. (ie The Tombstone Imperative). I'm of the opion that it is now down to when and not if that a low cost carrier suffers a major hull loss. It is one thing flying when your tired and another when you are flying totally punch drunk, which is the best way I can discribe the way you feel when you work this way. It has to be said that I worked for the more enlightend of the two major European loco's, that did at least take some of our concerns on board.

Still some loco pilots only fly 18hrs a week for £100,000,00pa according the their CEO, please can I have one of those jobs M------?

[Stan Woolley]

Speevy
Fair enough.

unablereq.........(whatever) ;)
Funny how Easy took things on board once they had lost over three hundred pilots in three years, you and I being in that group.
Nobody wants to hear this but I far prefer the lifestyle at Ryanair. I havent had a roster change for months which was my big problem with easy.I do agree that both are not sustainable long term if you value your health at all and some of the ideas are immoral at best but I just want to be home these days.
Regards

[Dexterdawg]

Its a fact that the beancounters ALWAYS come up with funky little formulae that show, beyond a shadow of a doubt, that the crew compliment is sufficient.
Pity that their formula does not usually factor in things such as leave, sick leave, training etc. Easy then to stand up in management meetings and froth at the mouth because the pilots are "whining" that they are fatigued and dont have enough down-time.
Heard via a mate at 1Time that they have lost 4 captains and several F/O's this month with a bunch to follow soon. Seems that the very same problems we had with 1Time's chief beancounter at Comair have followed him across. I see a bad moon rising......

[philby737]

philby...I agree with Q4VNS. Daily FDP is dependant on your start time and the number of sectors you fly. Example - sign on at 0900 for 4 sectors would allow you a maximum FDP of 11:45. If you sign on at 0900 for 6 sectors you maximum FDP is 10:15.


Clearly Q4NVS works for a reputable carrier, we all know what the FDP limits are and what the CAA requires. I refer to those poor sods that fly for the so-called private airlines who can fly in excess on 100hrs per month, fly 15+ without a day off and upto 30+ without two days off who are threatned with their jobs if they dont tow the line. The CAA conveniently turnes a blind eye.