ATC bashing on African Pilot web site

[EltorroLoco]

This is the artice in the newsletter Vol. 5 No. 37

Phoebus Apollo photo shoot on Sunday

Visitors to the Harvard Cafe' were treated to an exciting photo hoot (sic) at Rand Airport where we parked two DC-9s and a DC-3 on the concrete ramp right outside the historic terminal building for a photo sortie. Hennie Delport flew me in a Robinson helicopter to capture these exciting images for future marketing purposes. Rand Airport's ATCs were very professional as usual in accommodating the Robbie 22.

However, the ATCs at Johannesburg International Airport leave much to be desired. One of the DC-9s had to reposition to Rand Airport for the photo session, but was kept at the holding point for 45min burning expensive Jet A1. Do ATCs realise that this aircraft probably burnt more fuel in value waiting for a departure slot than some of them earn in a month? Phoebus Apollo often repositions various aircraft types to and from FAJS to FAGM without any delays when suitably qualified controllers are on duty. The VFR flight takes all of three minutes, yet the frustration of having to deal with controllers who do not understand the logistics of aircraft. Unfortunately several people were delayed as a direct result of the controller's inability to manage a slightly unusual situation.

Please note that the above is not intended to 'have a go' at South African ATCs; indeed many ATCs are good friends of African Pilot. However, some ATCs have great difficulty understanding the cost involved in keeping aircraft airborne. In addition, the unnecessary time wasted at the holding points is a huge cost to the operator as well as being very bad for aircraft engines. It appears the better performance and accountablility is what is required from ATNS management from individual air traffic controllers.


This is such a shockingly bad piece of jounalism from Mr Athol Franz that I scarcely know where to start.

Firstly, as a journalist, I think you owe it to your readers to get the facts straight. The time from start to airborne for the DC9 was in fact 22min. With RWY 21R for departure this is quite respectable. The flight was VFR, which means it has lower priority that scheduled flights, slot booked or not.
After the DC9 took off, it did an unauthorised orbit on base for 29 at Rand further delaying the other aircraft out of Johannesburg.

Also on the subject of jounalism, I think it is a disgrace to use your well respected name and magazine to complain about ATC service. You come across as an unprofessional, disgruntled bore. The correct way to address your concerns is to telephone the centre concerned and request an explanation. The controller concerned is in fact the most experienced one in the tower and most FAJS tower ATCs first serve their training time at Rand before they move to FAJS. To imply that FAJS tower is staffed by unsuitably qualified ATCs is almost criminal. Your magazine is not your soap-box.

On the subject of being a pilot, while you state that you are not intending to 'have a go' at ATC, you most cetainly are, and you may take this as 'having a go' at you. You clearly have no concept of ATC and you may also take this as an invite to come to FAJS and have some of these concepts explained. This will not make you profficient at ATC any more than visiting a garage will make you a mechanic, but it may help with some perspective and insight.

I read your publication often and the standard is much higher than this trash. I think you should stick to your field when reporting and rather provide objective views on aircraft and events. I will assume that you had a momentaly lapse of reason when you decided to print this article and will return to the professional standard which is expected with your reputation and role in aviation.

[B Sousa]

Ouch.........All this confusion in class "C" airspace...

[Phenomenon]

Well said EltorroLoco! :ok:

Clearly someone doesn't understand the Logistics of a busy airport and the difference between IFR and VFR priority...

[The Actuator]

At last somebody else is pissed at the lack of service from ATNS. It is probably not the individual controllers at fault, more likely their management but really something needs to be done.
Unfortunately all one is likely to get is a rebuke from an ATCO for daring to question their controlling and an invite to "have these concepts explained to you"!
It is unlikely that perhaps someone at ATNS HQ would stop and think "hey maybe we are not the bee`s knees and maybe we could do better" and more likely that we will still have to wait for the jetstream to get to 5 miles before being allowed to depart, more likely we will still get stepped descents with no speeds once we`ve slowed down, more likely we will still get the "shortned (sp) ILS" (vectors for training), more likely we will still get the "standby for start - delay due to congestion at the holding point" (3 aircraft), more likely we will still get the "YOU REQUIRE A FLIGHT PLAN FOR A VFR DEPARTURE TO LANSERIA CALL BACK WHEN YOU`VE FILED" (i know it`s the law...but bejeeeesus it`s a Sunday morning for goodness sake just let me go - ok)....on and on and on.
Get with the service concept, we are all trying to make the economy go round but ATNS ain`t helping.

[EltorroLoco]

Actuator

I think you are missing the point sir. This thread is about Mr Franz's article, particularly from a journalistic integrity and professionalism. I think the service delivery of ATNS is a valid, but separate issue.

I don't think magazines should be used to voice one's personal disapproval with service, especially if the ATCs concerned have never been contacted to defend themselves and the author also happens to be the editor.

I am also questioning the facts in the article which seem to have been altered or omitted to emphasize the point. This is not good journalism.

This is not a mere rebuke for an attack, this is disappontment in the ramblings of an otherwise well respected member of the aviation community.

[The Actuator]

I don`t think I missed the point.
He`s pissed at ATC, ATC`s pissed at him for publishing it and I`m glad somebody else is pissed at the levels of service.
Clearly complaining to ATC directly has never had any affect, picking up the phone only gets you invited to come and see how little you understand and how your suggestions are so not going to work etc etc. What other options are available that have proved effective in the past?
ATNS will not listen to the users of the system (pilots or operators) because they believe they have a handle on things. On the rare occassion that ATNS admits things could be done better they are bound by an archaic regulatory body with archaic regulations that choke the airspace and provide red tape to clog the system.
By publishing maybe something will get done, because it might spark a debate on just how inadequate the ATC system in SA is. I`m not holding my breath though.

[Phenomenon]

picking up the phone only gets you invited to come and see how little you understand and how your suggestions are so not going to work

Have you ever considered that they might be right?

If you are not involved in the goings on at ATNS on a daily basis you cannot fully understand their way of doing things. You simply cannot please anyone no matter how hard you try and there are alot of different factors that I think play a part in ATC delays etc.

Overall I really don't think ATNS is doing a bad job.

I don`t think I missed the point

I agree with EltorroLoco, you missed the point completely. If you want to have a go at someone, go for it, you have a right to lift your opinion, but don't bend the facts in your favour to bring your point across. If you take the facts as they actually happened it seems to me that ATNS wasn't at fault in the whole incident but the DC-9 was!

[The Actuator]

Oh for goodness sake.

What is the point I keep missing?
ATC is pissed that it`s in print? Yes or no?
ATC have a monopoly on the facts? Are we to assume that only you have the facts and that any other views are lies?
He has as much right as any one to criticise as a user of the system. I would bet that he is well aware of other similar complaints falling on deaf ears so he`s used an avenue open to him to get attention.

I would say you have missed the point - the ATC system sucks and nothing the users do can improve it because we "come across as an unprofessional, disgruntled bore" and "clearly have no concept of ATC"!

What recourse does one have if things are a tax up? You can phone (done) - but you will get the attitude, you can write letters (done) - nothing improves, you can make suggestions (done) - discarded, you can pay (done) still get no service.

Tired.

[RadarMaggot]

"(i know it`s the law...but bejeeeesus it`s a Sunday morning for goodness sake just let me go - ok)"


So Actuator, do you expect a Copper not to stop you on the N1 when you're doing 200kph in your Beamer 2 o'clock in the morning...?:=

[I.R.PIRATE]

not the first time AP is in some hot water for AF's unmoderated comments...:ugh:

[Phenomenon]

standby for start - delay due to congestion at the holding point

Even though there may be only 3 aircraft at the holding point have you considered how many there might be busy starting up or on their way to the holding point or just maybe in radar airspace? Look at the bigger picture as well.

Wouldn't you rather wait in the parking bay for a shorter wait at the holding point or do you enjoy burning fuel on the ground?

[Phenomenon]

Just some food for though for mr. Frantz from Wikipedia

Objectivity

* Unequivocal separation between news and opinion. In-house editorials and opinion (Op-Ed) pieces are clearly separated from news pieces. News reporters and editorial staff are distinct.
* Unequivocal separation between advertisements and news. All advertisements must be clearly identifiable as such.
* Reporter must avoid conflicts of interest — incentives to report a story with a given slant. This includes not taking bribes and not reporting on stories that affect the reporter's personal, economic or political interests. See envelope journalism.
* Competing points of view are balanced and fairly characterized.
* Persons who are the subject of adverse news stories are allowed a reasonable opportunity to respond to the adverse information before the story is published or broadcast.
* Interference with reporting by any entity, including censorship, must be disclosed.

[B Sousa]

I thought I would get a rise out of someone when I mentioned that JNB is only Class "C". I now understand that the pi55ing contest could be as a result of it not ONLY being Class C., it appears to be overworked and probably should be upgraded to Class "B"

I realize that costs money and requires more technical staff which dont seem to be found in abundance that far down the continent.
But consider how much nicer it would be as the restrictions would eliminate a lot of unnecessary traffic and the load on all those using the airport would be decreased. Rand ,which is in close promity, would also not necessarily be in Class "B" so operations would run a bit smoother, with seperate procedures.

I work in one daily and in Helicopters alone we have nearly 350 takeoffs and landings daily. Consider also the hundreds of Corporate jets and the hundreds of Airline cycles daily. And all with less confusion than we have on this thread.

I may be a bit off as I am not addressing the "journalism" side, but consider where the problem comes from.

[Phenomenon]

consider where the problem comes from

Hitting the nail right on the head! :ok:

[SAA201]

This is from African Pilot Newsletter 38 - 2006, 18 September 2006
Last week’s AP newsletter report on Phoebus Apollo and ATNS at FAJS
African Pilot received a complaint that the time period quoted of 45 minutes that the Phoebus Apollo DC-9 had to wait for take-off and return to Rand Airport was not accurate. The following report has been received from Mark Swarts – communications specialist at ATNS and is printed in full without corrections.
Reply from Mark Swarts - ATNS
Dear Athol,
As discussed telephonically, I was disheartened to see your report of the performance of our ATC at FAJS. Following on from reading the article titled “Phoebus Apollo photo shoot on Sunday”, I contacted the centre manager of the Johannesburg ATSU to obtain factual insight into what happened here.
From all records pertaining to the management of this flight by our ATC, the following could be drawn;
- Start of the aircraft was approved at 08h56Z
- Actual airborne time of the aircraft was at 09h18Z.
- This shows a total time of 22 minutes between start and airborne time, and provides no indication of a 45 minute hold at the holding point as reported. The published taxi time for ex FAJS is 15 minutes for this size aircraft, so a 22 min taxi time in peak periods without a slot is certainly not excessive.- A local rule stating that VFR positioning flights out of FAJS to airfields below the TMA are not required to book a slot, is in place; however the understanding is that these departures will be accommodated when possible. As you know, a system of slots is in use at FAJS to help manage the traffic flow, especially at peak periods such as this one. Should an aircraft wish to depart during such a time without a slot, our ATC will only be able to assist with its departure when a gap opens up for this purpose, and with due regard for all the operators who have booked slots and are thus afforded priority.
I am sure you can appreciate that the FAJS ATC crew are feeling a little “beat-up” by this report, which was a totally inaccurate report on the events as they occurred. On behalf of ATNS, I can assure you that our staff tries their very best at assisting clients in every way possible within the given parameters. I do believe that facts of this nature should be carefully verified before communicating on them - with such emotion. It is unfortunate that this seems to be a trend, which does not bode well for the building of a positive, supportive and understanding culture within aviation.
I wish to encourage you to publish a correction and apology for the article as published in your AP newsletter.
Best regards,
Mark.

[RadTag]

To all the people taking a swipe at the ATC's:

Unless you've been to the JHB Centre, and seen how the system oprerates, and by that I mean daily ops and the good and the bad......
frankly your opinion is nothing more than just that.

Don't nock it till you've tried it. Please don't make statements like some of the ones above if you don't know what your talking about!!!!!!:=

Instead, I dare you to come and visit the Centre to see for yourself what we deal with every day. How we try to carry the system day in and day out!

[pointer41]

My 2c bit:
After flying "up north" for a while, upon crossing the boundary southbound the sweetest words are "You are under Radar Control". Quite some time ago I heard a chap (VFR, no priority) getting "momentarily unsure" of position, and the ATC as quick as a flash used landmarks (he did not have him on radar) to help the guy. Myself will sneak now and again with a small C208 in and out of FAJS to play with students. The ATCs has always been very helpful, even after I duffed an approach to JS.
Thus, the ATCs get my vote on this one. Having visited their centre a while ago, I was mildly impressed with how much the system has improved through the years, but most of all I was impressed purely by the attitude of the staff, ready and eager to make traffic flow as freely as possible; granted, at some stage you will hit some sort of glitch that can cause a delay, etc.
But no, I do not condone outright 'having a go', as we are all human, but we are all working for a common goal, i.e. safe end enjoyable aviation. Not taking sides, but normally Athol Franz deliver a good service and useful info on his newsletter. Possibly he misunderstood the situation. ATCs (don't put me in a holding pattern for this one:) ) are as much a part of your flying experience as the aircraft, so look after them!
Thanks for an excellent service!:ok:

[fluffyfan]

I have to agree with EltorroLoco, this is a particularly bad piece of journalism and perhaps mr AF should edit himself a little more thoroughly, for example the quote below from AF

One of the DC-9s had to reposition to Rand Airport for the photo session, but was kept at the holding point for 45min burning expensive Jet A1. Do ATCs realise that this aircraft probably burnt more fuel in value waiting for a departure slot than some of them earn in a month?

Does Mr AF know what he is talking about or where his panties in a twist when he wrote this, the average fuel consumption of a DC9/MD82 during taxi and holding on the ground (both engines) is 22 l/min and the price of Jet A1 is approx R6.66 per litre, so if we use AF's figure of a 45 min hold on the ground that equates to R6593 of fuel burn holding, if we use the more realistic figure from the ATC's of 22 min holding that equates to R3223 burnt while holding. I am not an ATC but I assume the lowest paid ATC earns a hell of a lot more than R3223 per month.

This just serves to illustrate that this article was particularly poorly written. it is insulting to the poor old ATC's firstly with reference to there pay and secondly by implying they are not doing there job properly.

Another Quote from a previous post from Saywhat

SA ATC's undoubtedly control more traffic in SA (JNB) than any other controller anywhere in Europe or the USA. Perhaps not numbers of a/c, but numbers of a/c spoken to simultaneously. Only so many a/c can be controlled at any one time for two reasons. Firstly because of time constraints, and secondly to ensure there is not an information overload for the person controlling. The ATC's can only talk to so many a/c at a time. If more sectors could be open, more traffic could be moved. Unfortunately there is a staff shortage in SA, which will not be remedied in the near future.

The ATC's do an excellent job with limited recourses, has Mr AF considered how much fuel would have been burnt by aircraft on the ground at JHB international whilst waiting for the joy riders at Rand to take off not to mention the inconvenience to hundreds of passengers, I guess not and why would he care he is not paying for that fuel.

Well done ATC's

[BlueSkye]

For some reason I am unable to explain The Actuator has gone very quiet. Very well said ElTorro. You give 'em hell B. Always have, always will. And don't forget the mantra that Mr. AF subscribes to being a journalist: "Don't let the facts get in the way of a good story/ATC bashing." :D

[JG1]

Shame that some of the piskrieg community get such inflated ideas about what they really know about commercial aviation - should follow ballooning more - would go far - the further the better :D

However, the ATCs at Johannesburg International Airport leave much to be desired. One of the DC-9s had to reposition to Rand Airport for the photo session, but was kept at the holding point for 45min burning expensive Jet A1. <Wrong.>Do ATCs realise that this aircraft probably burnt more fuel in value waiting for a departure slot than some of them earn in a month? <Wrong again.>Phoebus Apollo often repositions various aircraft types to and from FAJS to FAGM without any delays when suitably qualified controllers are on duty. <So this should entitle it to some sort of preferential treatment? Some of the worlds most respected airlines operate to and from FAJS too, and more frequently than Phoebus Apollo do, in case you might have forgotten that.>The VFR flight takes all of three minutes, yet the frustration of having to deal with controllers who do not understand the logistics of aircraft. <That's an unfinished sentence but; No. You are the one with no understanding of the logistics of modern air traffic control. Just because a flight is 3 min long do you expect it to take you any shorter time from your bay to takeoff than any of the other many passenger aircraft?>Unfortunately several people were delayed as a direct result of the controller's inability to manage a slightly unusual situation.<You mean 7 or 8 as opposed to the 1000 or more people who waited for your charter to leave?>

Please note that the above is not intended to 'have a go' at South African ATCs; <oh?>indeed many ATCs are good friends of African Pilot. <Used to be. Scratch one subscription.>However, some ATCs have great difficulty understanding the cost involved in keeping aircraft airborne. <And, you do?>In addition, the unnecessary time wasted at the holding points is a huge cost to the operator as well as being very bad for aircraft engines. <Rubbish.>It appears the (sic) better performance and accountablility (sic) is what is required from ATNS management from <from who?>individual air traffic controllers.<Sorry, what?>>

[Deskjocky]

Spot on JG, I’m quite tired of certain journo’s in this country- particularly the ones involved in publishing magazines using their publication as a soap box to air their, normally, uninformed opinions. If they would only stick to what they know- ok errr…then they wouldn’t have anything to put in the mag!! :mad:

Ive really lost interest in all but one of the local mags and now only ask our marketing guys to send me the international ones they get. Don’t get me wrong Im very interested in GA but these guys bump up the mag with pics of this fly-in and that fly-in – or better still yet another pic of a Lightening form Thunder City!- that’s if there is any place left after all the free ads given out to companies for fixing up their airee for free.

I think we are so are eager for material that the reading public just buys some of these publications out of desperation:yuk:

[Dct no speed]

Why does this not surprise me that Phoebus Apollo was involved?
Maybe the pissing and moaning comes from the honourable "airline". Having had the unfortunate "honour" of working with them in the past, I am actually amazed they did not declare an emergency! :yuk:
As for the "know nothing at all" jounalist, I know a lot of Air Traffic Controllers at Jo'burg that have valid pilots licenses, some even commercial. They fly as well as control, but I have yet to come across an Airline pilot working at the centre! or a Journalist for that matter. ATC have a much better understanding of aviation than you; may I add.
So please leave the controlling to us, and go review the new Airport in outer Mongolia :} Or go catch up on your RT!
Must agree with B sousa Jo'burg tower controllers really need to go see how class C airspace is controlled at Other Airports - those Outside the country. You guys are limited with the "Laid down Law" a bit and will be able to give the Radar boys a much better service if you apply "reduced seperation in the vicinity of the Airfield" better,as the good book state!
To the last few standing at Jo'burg good luck boys and girls, you guys are doing a good job, no matter what this a:mad: ole say. I am just wondering who is going to be the last one to switch the lights off? :confused:

[The Actuator]

Blueskye - The Actuator has gone quiet because he has been flying and still getting amazed at the pathetic level of service from ATNS on a daily basis.

Even if he had not been flying he would not have contributed further to this thread because as is all to obvious there is simply no convincing the powers that be that there is room for improvement, so he just puts up and shuts up - after all it's not his money and EFP goes a long way!!!!!

concentrate on that "busy" airspace now!;)

[03Rnow30R]

MR Actuator

So sorry to hear you think the service by JHB ATC is so terrible. Might I suggest you PM one of the JHB ATC's and arrange a visit to the center. Plug in with the guy or girl showing you around, speak to the guys that do the work and even have a chin wag with the folks running the place and share how you believe ATC should be done. Don't hide behind the "I have written and phoned" rubbish. Lets see if you are as bold as you appear to be in this thread. As I used be an ATC in SA at the very center that has apparently gone backwards, you are welcome to PM me and I will try and put you in contact with some of my old work mates.

[118.9]

It appears the better performance and accountablility is what is required from ATNS management from individual air traffic controllers.


What about editors being accountable for (their own) aviation performance!!

This is the very same guy who with his PPL, without an IF rating, flew into totally IMC conditions (fading daylight, falling temp and cloud on the deck) and pushed a critical situation until spatial disorientated took over. Lucky for him, by the grace of his God, his 172 crashed into the ground as he was hauling back on the stick. He got away with it.

The sad thing about all this is that this editor is actually proud of this prang, he even tried to blame ATC for telling him to turn the wrong way after he lost sight of bright toll gate lights in the mist.

My point? People in glass houses..................

[BlueSkye]

Actuator - All I see you and your ilk do is moan. You never have a solution to the problem. The reason why you don't have a solution is because you don't understand one damn iota of what ATC is. Please post all the posts where ATCs have slagged a pilot because of his flying skills and then where you halfwits slag us for how we control. The overwhelming majority of your clan is crybabies who only appreciate the one side of the coin - theirs. So next time one of you miss a call, retire on the runway after being cleared for take-off or bust a level, I suggest the flightnumber should be posted on this here site. Hell, put the PIC's name down as well, while we are bashing. After all, it will just balance things out a bit.

As for concentrating on the busy airspace, it usually gets busy when you deal with Say Again Airlines.:*

[The Actuator]

Heheheh!
I hope you are on a day off and that you’re controlling is better than your English. To call someone a halfwit and then use is instead of are in the next sentence is a little embarrassing wouldn't you say?

As far as I'm aware I've never slagged an individual ATC - it's the system not the controllers that need adjustment.

Solutions would be findable if the user’s views were ever taken into account but sadly this does not happen, and the post above proves that the views of the users of the system are not wanted.

As I SAAid we'll just continue to waste the time, money and resources because it simply could not get more efficient or could it?:ugh:

[BlueSkye]

Seeing that you has all da answers, can you like to share some of your solutions wiff us. What exactly are you complaining about. Poor service is bit of a broad stroke. Are we talking GMC, TWR, App or Acc here? Is anything less than "Dct 8nm final Rwy03L no speed restrictions cleared to land" poor service. Or would you prefer :"Push start face south taxi B cleared take off 03L climb FL330." Just as your ride has restrictions, our system and the people have restrictions. So don't stand their on your soapbox and accuse without proof or solutions. := You don't phone BMW or Merc and tell them their service sucks. They will tell you to be specific.

So I suggest you start a new thread with specific complaints and maybe EltorroLoco or makeapullup or SAA201 or even myself will answer your questions. As long as it is done in a constructive manner, unlike Mr. Franz.

[Miragepilote]

Gentleman, dear Mr. AF, dealing and flying with Phoebus Apollo and especially in a R22 with Hennie, must obviously mean that he likes to "live fast and die young".... so please forgive him his indiscretions.
The Phoebus Apollo aircraft should just have asked for the HIGHWAY HENNIE 1A DEPARTURE and taxied there: Left on the R21, left on the N12, left on the N3, left on the N17.... first airport on the left... hehehehe :p
It is the notorious HIGHWAY HENNIE we are dealing with here, OBVIOUSLY bending Mr. AF's ear, circling around waiting for his pride and joy to appear on the horizon. The truth is always out there, noted on a strip in this case, but some people still just don’t get it.
But then I ask, shouldn't this "gentleman" have preferential taxi and highway allowances as he is the proverbial “jack of all trades, master of ****”, including highway landings and the LAHSO or is that LSAHO??:yuk:
In my experience, the boys in the BIGGEST fish tank in South Africa have always gone overboard to see where they could accommodate even the little flying fish, including the restrictive actuator.:ok: