O'Leary v Evan Cullen on RTE1

[asleep at the wheel]

From tonight's "primetime" on RTE1; an expose of pilot fatigue in Ryanair and of the disgracefully unregulated aviation industry in Ireland.

http://dynamic.rte.ie/av/230-2172554.smil

Another example of O'Leary doing a cheap imitation of Goebbels...

[DH121]

Well done Evan Cullen. And who can complain about David Learmount, after that bit of straight talking?

MOL must have little imagination - if Ryanair have an accident in which fatigue is a causal factor, he'll be in deep doodoo!

[atse]

Interesting to see the Great Man MOL finally looking shifty eyed and uncertain. He still managed to get his pre-prepared Ryanair mantra repeated several times -

€100,000 for 18 hours a week
€100,000 for 18 hours a week
€100,000 for 18 hours a week
€100,000 for 18 hours a week
€100,000 for 18 hours a week

Interspersed with:

That Aer Lingus (horror!) pilot over there ...
That Aer Lingus (horror!) pilot over there ...
That Aer Lingus (horror!) pilot over there ...
That Aer Lingus (horror!) pilot over there ...
That Aer Lingus (horror!) pilot over there ...
That failed Aer Lingus pilot over there ...

Which sure is better than actually addressing the key question when you are in a hole!

[CamelhAir]

The bottom line is, to Joe Ordinaryman in front of his TV, with an opinion on everything, and knowledge of nothing, are pilots fatigued or merely overpaid, workshy and lazy?

[pos-init]

I saw the interview tonight and, from a puerly objective view point, feel that MOL came across, unfortunately, quite well.

But this of course is MOL's forte which can only mean that Cullen was completely out of his depth. He (Cullen) made a patethic attempt to badger MOL, thinking perhaps that he was at an IAPA meeting with only pilots watching. Pathetic. Over 99 percent of the people watching this were ordinary non aviation people who have no idea of the politics involved and as a result have been reassured by the CEO of the airline that everything is ok - and because of Cullens inept performance, they probably believe it. MOL came across quite well because he wasnt challenged by a competent person capable of disassociating himself from his obvious loathing of the man and frankly let all of us down.

Why did Cullen not challenge that fact that Ryanair regularly employ split shifts which disguise the fact that althought pilots only FLY 18 hours a week, it is done so over a 50 hour per week period. A pilot can show up for work at 7am in the morning and not get home till 11pm that night and have only flown 6 hours. This surely is the issue yet most people going to bed tonight are not aware of this because Cullen wasnt able to articulate it. Fool. Cullen lost an opportunity of a life time because his ego got in the way and the nett result is that nothing will change - a golden opportunity has been lost - perhaps MOLs thaunts are not that far from the mark??

[Aloue]

I saw the interview tonight and, from a puerly objective view point, feel that MOL came across, unfortunately, quite well.
MOL came across quite well because he wasnt challenged by a competent person capable of disassociating himself from his obvious loathing of the man and frankly let all of us down.

Well, I am not sure which programme you saw, but it was not the same one as I saw. I once again observed the infamous Chief Executive present the interviewer with an impossible task as he repeated the same old guff and simply refused to deal with any facts. But on several occasions your hero of the moment looked positively "shook" at the end of a couple of his diatribes, especially when he though the camera had moved away. He was reduced to throwing the usual stuff around and NEVER dealt with the issues.

I think pos-init you may be confusing spectacle and spin with substance; this is a Ryanair trait. What was far more interesting to me was the fact that the President of IALPA scored some important blows where they matter. pos-init I have a prediction for you. MOL will not willingly appear with Evan Cullen on TV or radio again - I conclude exactly the opposite from the encounter that you do.

Anyway, this is all a matter of opinion. What matters are the facts. And the facts as written on Ryanair rosters do not support the blatant statements of Mr. Michael O'Leary. Just as happened in the REPA case, the FACTS are what will matter in the end. The facts are all that matter.

In that regard, you say the following:

Why did Cullen not challenge that fact that Ryanair regularly employ split shifts which disguise the fact that althought pilots only FLY 18 hours a week ...
Ryanair do not "regularly employ split shifts". Please provide examples (cite a roster example or two for us). Secondly, you say that Ryanair pilots "only FLY 18 hours a week". This is untrue. Ryanair pilots frequently exceed this number of flying hours.

In fact, now that I look at it, your post has a curious tone to it .... So, can I just ask you to confirm if you are a Ryanair pilot and to whom your refer when you said that "[Cullen] let us all down"?

[suasdaguna]

to me the programme was the biggest threat to FR's public image in a long time. M O'L had no choice to go on it. As far as he's concerned he was in union heaven in RTE's studio surrounded by union boff's so he had to come out fighting....he was cornered.

What I didnt like about the programme was it was all FR, FR. No mention of split duties in Aer Arann where lates are shoved into earlies or good old Aer Lingus where they work with great regurlarity 6/2/5/1.....their roster pattern I believe is a disgrace but to change. The IAA as Mr Learmount said are fence sitters unlile the CAA. The IAA have only one choice now but to be involved and be more of a hands on regulatory authority....will that happen? no....only when the chain gets broken will it change.

Why were these other airlines not focused on?

As far as the general public percieve the whole programme it's FR only who run sweat shop regimes....not so!

As far M O'L calling Mr Cullen a "failed Aer Lingus pilot" as a parting shot, this was school yard bully boy stuff and I hope Mr Cullen takes O'Leary to task for this great untruth . Mr Cullen does trojan job for IALPA.

[Waggon rut]

Oh my God not again, I must remind myself I ONLY work 18 hours a week!

The laws of space-time cease to exist in Ryanair.

The 5.5 days I have off each week must be turning my brain into porridge.

I wish he would give up on that old chestnut

Wag

[Baron rouge]

18 hours a week !!! what a laugh, I can assure you that i regularily fly more than 28 hours in 5 days and some weeks, as many as 35-38 hours in 5 days, due to the fact that I am 5 ON / 5 OFF which converts realy in: 5 ON / 2 Commuting / 3 OFF.

[take-off]

i wonder how much effort will be spent in finding the pilots that spilled the beans?

[the grim repa]

I found that if i looked at this programme from the point of the guy on the street,then ryanair did quite well.But when i look at it from the point of view of the IAA or higher management,then i was another pr disaster for ryanair management.One in which again their expert witness(rosekind) rubbished their so called expertly tested roster.Learmount was quite unusually direct.

Again many questions have been asked and we get the usual 18 hour week/100,000 pound salary reply.Instead of answering any questions mol questioned why he as a great success story with 20 years at the helm should have to appear on a talk show for the common people.

Interesting to see that he could not bring himself to look evan cullen in the eye.like a real man would.

[brownstar]

anyone watching this who doesn't know about ryanair, his claim of pilots flying only 18 hours per week is just a statistical interpretation, the real limit as in the one that applies to fatigue is duty time limit which is 12 hours per day! The flight time limit is 100 hours in 28 days.
As for the no one flies more than 900 hours per year, well, it depends on your definition of a year...... gald to see the IAA got that one fixed,??

[TwoDeadDogs]

hi all
In today's Irish Times, in an article about the programmes, it said that O'Leary claimed that FR pilots do not even fly at night.Guess it must be leprechauns flying those -800s that regularly taxi to stand after dark, at Dublin.
As for the comment about EI's roster, well,they enjoy terms and conditions that compensate for it, by comparison with FR/RE/WX pilots and you'll notice that there's very little migration out of the EI flight deck.The other way round, in fact...
regards
TDD;)

[potkettleblack]

Just heard from the gf's mum who saw it last night and she reckoned the IALPA guy came across in a really poor light. He spoke like a knacker and he reminded her of the militant taxi guys that have been on tv over here in Ireland these last few weeks. Like most people who aren't involved in the industry she seized on the 18 hours a week point and thought pilots had it easy. I put her straight on his creative maths and she saw reason but there will be many others out there that still haven't the faintest of the workload on the modern pilot.

Message seems to be for IALPA to leave the militant left wingers at home and get a savvy spokesperson if they get another chance who can communicate to a lay person.

[the grim repa]

I think that this was not for the people on the street,as they have neither the will or want to make any changes.

Just keep the cheap tickets flowing.

This was aimed at the regulatory authorities and management.

Question is "why was it only ryanair in the dock"?Because they are perceived as bullies,liars and intimidators.

[Bearcat]

Question is "why was it only ryanair in the dock"?Because they are perceived as bullies,liars and intimidators.

perceived? court of law found they lied.:eek:

[pos-init]

Aloue,

You are so lost in the anti Ryanair forest that you cant see the wood from the trees anymore.

All Joe public watching last night heard was..

Best safety record in Europe
Work 18hrs a week and 100,000 euro a year
Work 18hrs a week and 100,000 euro a year etc, etc, etc.

Whats worse is that he was allowed to repeat this appalling mantra time and time again completely unchallenged by Miriam “Paxman” O'Callaghan, one of our so called elite jurno interrogators, and worst of all, by Evan Cullen. Not once did I hear Mr Cullen contradict or challenge MOL’s definition of an 18 hour week. Not once did I hear him challenge MOL on duty time or split shifts. (By the way, I call reporting for work at 7am, working till noon, going off duty till 4pm and then returning to work later the same day a split shift – and it does go on in Ryanair and other airlines). The only salvo Mr Cullen got off was a fleeting reference to a special exemption, unique to the IAA, in relation to training captains and that was lost on everyone who heard it as 99% of the audience were not in aviation. O'leary knew this, why didn’t Mr Cullen?

We all know that what MOL said was total BS but Joe Public dosent, especially after this. Remember that the programme is called Prime time and has very high viewing figures. Most people who watched it would only be home a couple of hours having left for work at 6:30am that morning. Bloody pilots, complaining again that they have to work 18 hours a week for 100,000k – bloody cheek.
Think about it folks.

Quote..
In fact, now that I look at it, your post has a curious tone to it .... So, can I just ask you to confirm if you are a Ryanair pilot and to whom your refer when you said that "[Cullen] let us all down"?

You pompous git. How dare you question my credentials to pass comment on a public interview. Do you think that you have a monopoly on criticising MOL and the malignant management in RYR. I’ve read alot of your rants and all I see is a bitter and twisted RYR employee who takes every opportunity to gloat over every mishap that befalls them. I am only interested in changing their appalling work practices before they become the norm in our industry. There are (at least) two essential ingredients needed.

1. To explain the actual situation to the travelling Joe public and make them understand why it is essential for their safety that we change this and..

2. To strike if necessary to bring these changes about.

Aloue, I fear you don’t have the ability to do one nor the balls to do the other.

Good day

[BEagle]

Having watched the clip, I consider that O'Leary came across as an extremely rude and arrogant person, nasty and 'stuck on transmit'. Not only did he continually talk over the interviewer, but he also refused to answer any questions or to debate. He just trotted out the same old rot which everyone has heard before.

I will never fly with an airline whose culture is such that pilots are afraid to report excessive fatigue or safety issues for fear of retribution.

Not that O'Leary will be worried by that - there are plenty of others who will just look for the cheapest price they can find.....

[RVR800]

900/52=17.3

[Pigsfly]

I saw it last night. I am fully aware of the situation, the working practices and methods of FR. Ryanair Pilots ARE stressed and fatuigued from the operation. In many cases deeply so from many years of it.

BUT, in the eyes of the PUBLIC, O`Leary WON. His points clear and consise to the average punter.

RYANAIR PILOTS..........you need to provide clear and understandable cases to the public.......You need to show them how remiss the IAA is.......You need to show the evidence and explain it in plain language......O`Leary will shout everyone down and blind all with statistics.

So get your heads together and provide the goods. Now that you have put the SAFETY CARD on the table, back it up. I am ex-ryanair Capt and know its there. My own doctor gave me a two week sick cert some years back for Sinusitis......because the level of fatuige and stress I was under was unsafe........I should add that I was constantly refused Annual Leave by FR admin prior to this.

Just one little case of such in thousands.

Now I work for an Airline that treats me like a human, mutual respect, excellent morale, excellent terms and conditions, no bullying and no personal abuse.

If you want to stay with FR and improve your lot.......Put forward and professional and proveable case.

[GodsCountry]

Have to agree with Pigsfly, saw the programme and as an ex-employee of EI had some backround knowledge of the topic so wasnt looking at it with a complete lack of the basics.

As MOL often does he comes across very well as the hard pressed, oppressed by the miltant natsy unions manager trying to do his best with a disgruntled ungrateful overpaid underworked pilots group.

The facts are very different and I think Evan Cullen missed many opportunities to hammer him not least to kill off the 18 hrs per week claim. That may be the average permitted over a year but if this is the case why do FR pilots regularly run out of hours before a year is up. Similarly why didnt EC mention the progressive nature of fatigue that builds working in a pressured environment.

I am far from a supporter of FR and their practices but on balance think MOL won the battle for the hearts and minds of Joe Public. My opinion - not fact..!!

[CamelhAir]

I didn't see it myself, but have talked to many who did, most outside aviation. Without question, in the minds of the public, Ryanair won. Now, granted all thought MOL's performance was disgusting, thuggish and cheap, particularly the personsalised digs at EC and also his refusal to do anything but shout over everyone else, however the one thing that stuck in everyones minds is "18 hours per week." He didn't win because he put forward any sort of coherent or logical argumenst (how could he, there aren't any) but simply because his salient claim of the 18 hours per week went totally unchallenged. It's such neat soundbite and encapsulates everything MOL would like the public to believe about pilots.
I completely agree with EC's general thoughts on FR, but perhaps this was not the right platform to try to articulate them. Easy pickings were to be had by rubbishing MOL's lies, so looks like an opportunity lost. And it pains me to say this, as I think EC is doing a great job with REPA etc.
Anyone with any knowledge of pilots lives knows that fatigue is endemic, how the hell can it be so difficult to get the point across to the public??
Apparently David Learmont put up a good show and the one positive that came out of all this (apart from the fact that MOL came across as a total thug) is that those I have talked to are very curious as to what the IAA are up to (or not as the case is) to be slated so by him.
However, I fear that realistically nothing will come of this and once more the holes in the cheese are a little more lined up than they need to be. It's not until MOL finally succeeds in breaking an airframe (and how close we've been too many times in the last year or 2) that anyone will care.
Finally, from the Irish Times today:
"In a statement, the Irish Aviation Authority (IAA) said it carried out "extensive and detailed surveillance on all Irish airlines".
Grand so lads, no need to worry then, those thorough and impartial individuals at the Ryanair Aviation Authority have it sorted.

[747boy]

One point that was mentioned briefly in the VT before the interview was the fact that Ryanair pilots are reaching the 900 hours limit in less than 12 months. So when they are flying they must be doing more than 18 hours. Mr Cullen didn't seem to reiterate this point.

Not a fan of MOL but overall I have to say that Mr Cullen didn't come across well and didn't articulate any of his points in simple terms.

We all know what MOL said "18 hours for 100K" but what was the key point from Mr Cullen ?.

[Bearcat]

Ducksie won alright...he did'nt learn those debating techniques in clongowes!

[the grim repa]

Bearcat - i as you would expect beg to differ.From where i am looking and those i have talked with today have said that as well as mol making a knob out of himself with his personal attacks,he and the programme have now highlighted the facts that there are practices widespread in ryanair that have to be addressed.should they not be ,the warning is stark.In the words of evan cullen "an accident is the final indicator of problems,not the first".

mol was also wrong about southwest,they did kill somone in a crash.ran through an airport fence and killed some kid in a car.

[CamelhAir]

ASFKAP, thanks for the link. Well worth watching for those that haven't seen it.
The report prior to MOL's antics should be a wake-up call to anyone who cares to listen. The issue has now been put out there in public, in probably the most comphrehensive manner yet seen in Ireland. This can only be a good thing. Contrary to MOL's ranting, the report was balanced and could in no way be viewed as mere scare-mongering.

[4on4off]

Surely the very fact that no Ryanair pilot could be interviewed without mafia-like informer protection, bears witness to the culture of bullying and intimidation endemic in their operation.

[Leo Hairy-Camel]

My goodness, what a dazzling fiesta of futility. Once again, IALPA and the short hairless pygmy they’ve elevated to be its windbag-in-chief have distinguished themselves by the sort of radiant inadequacy I only ever used to dream about in the turgid corridors of pilot unionism. How bleakly reassuring it is to observe with one’s own eyes that personal enmity is still being regurgitated by a pilots union president as being industrially relevant. Not only was Evan Cullen completely out of his depth in the debate on RTE’s Prime Time with our Chief Executive, but by every objectively measurable means, body language, demeanour, tone of voice, ill-fitting off-the-rack suit (and a shirt clearly two sizes too small), the Dwarf’s patently obvious lack of any intellectual merit was almost embarrassing. If not for the balefully humorous spectacle that always comes from such IALPA burlesque, his appearance was a total flop.

I think its long since past time for an injection of some truth when it comes to so-called fatigue. I can’t speak for other airlines, since I work as a Ryanair Captain, but in my case, a roster of 5 days on followed by a glorious 4 days off is, to my understanding, one of the best in the industry. Combine that with the small mountain of money I’m given each month for doing what I love and I’m a happy camper, but then so too are the vast majority of my colleagues, a fact not lost on the IALPA comedy hour, I can assure you, but more on that later. The only time IALPA has ever previously mentioned the subject of fatigue in Ryanair was over the completely bogus L.O’C beat up where a pilot, so embittered and non cooperative thanks entirely to IALPA’s perfidious sedition among the Dublin pilots, decided to refuse a reasonably allocated flight at the completion of a relatively short duty period. Everyone familiar with the case knows it for what it is, union grandstanding and totally false. L.O’C wasn’t fatigued in the least, and only decided he was after he found out he was in hot water, and then only after consultation with the Dwarf who seems to delight in using all and every opportunity to hurl nuisance and bogus claims of every imaginable industrial evil in the direction of our Chief Executive. Personal enmity masquerading as reasoned debate, in other words…..again.

The current manifestation of this phenomenon is the misbehaviour of the dozen or so members of the seriously pissed off pilot club in Dublin, those grey-haired millionaire prima donnas who, like so many drowning men clinging to the side of a leaky little rowboat called REPA, have been so comprehensively rebuked by the vast majority of the content and satisfied Ryanair pilot corps that they’ve been reduced to plastering REPA stickers all over our nice new ’06 registered crew vans and even nicer brand new 737-800’s. One presumes that defacing company property with stickers repeating the mantra of the damned three times yields some sort of spiritual satisfaction. God knows it amounts to little else.

Were you as certain of the strength of the non existent “unity unity unity” your little stickers claim to represent, Evan, you would abandon your clearly misguided aspirations toward a television career and start charging your membership the going rate for pilot union association, and at one percent of annual salary as I think the going rate is, you know as well as I do that if you did, your pointless, trouble making, Aer Lingus funded, jerk-off jamboree called REPA would vanish quicker than rats off the Lusitania.

[CamelhAir]

Nice work Leo, the Christmas edition of your thesaurus must have appeared already. Anyhow, now you've had your fun, establishing how witty and eloquent you are, so let's get down to the real business of the very real matter of pilot fatigue. No matter how hard I try to see any mention of it in your post, I fail to do so though. Perhaps it's coming next? I mean, I would hate to think that all that effort you spent in composing your post would be entirely wasted by it being completely and utterly irrelevant and, dare I say as usual, ignoring the nub of the issue, which is, yet again, something very serious which doesn't agree with the party line.

[red.sky@night]

A punters eye view from the FR homeland

http://www.askaboutmoney.com/showthread.php?t=36429


:sad:

[the grim repa]

Good post there leo.

[Jet_A_Knight]

I think that you are really deluding yourselves if you think that punters actually give a ****e how much any pilot works.

After all, the planes basically fly themselves, innit???: :ugh:

[outofsynch]

Jeez - no denying leo's cage is well rattled!

Very brave of MOL to make all those 'safest' claims. I wont enjoy the constant replay of those words, whilst watching pictures of a Harp in a deep hole.

I still remember Air NZ's 'Nobody does it better' campaign...

[cavelino rampante]

Just as a matter of interest how many hours do Aer Lingus A320 pilots currently fly per year?

[suasdaguna]

a lot have reached the 900 hr limit.....every one is maxed out

[cavelino rampante]

so does that make them unsafe as well?....or are their duties spread out differently to Ryanair making them less tiring on the crews?

[tilewood]

I think the fact that MOL had to keep looking at himself in the monitor
said it all!!

The words 'ego and trip' spring to mind!! :hmm:

[Clarence Oveur]

the Dwarf’s patently obvious lack of any intellectual merit was almost embarrassing.
Is that any way to speak about your boss?

I won't even start to mention the spelling mistakes..............

[BaronChotzinoff]

I was impressed with O'Leary's stance against the extra security regime, but his manner of shouting down, browbeating and bullying during this interview brands him a total w@nker. Yes, why didn't they pin him down on the 'actual' hours worked? - I've found the same myself when trying to argue reason against a bully's invective, you can't get the words in.

[DH121]

LeoHairything mentioned EC's body language. The only body language I noticed was when MOL looked like a rabbit caught in a headlight AND THEN SUCKED HIS FINGER! I think he was thinking "I want my mummy":}

But yes, I agree about the failure to take him to task over the 18 hours a week lie.

[Sunfish]

With the greatest of respect, Mr. O' Leary obviously understands the way the media works and gave a virtuouso performance, no matter how unpleasant it may appear to you.

May I point out that you need training to use the media and get your message across? A good PR firm could help. The Australian Trade Unions run courses for their staff on how to deal with the media and get their message across - its a skill that can be taught, and unions can do a brilliant marketing job if they work on it. Just ask any Australian pilot what "MUA, here to Stay" refers to.

The Public's attention span is very short. They are bombarded with advertisements all day and the ten second sound bite is all that sticks, hence Mr. O'Leary's repetitive "100,000 for 18 hours work" mantra. The public have no interest in the details of your rostering systems at all, and probably wouldn't understand its implications if they did. All that sticks is the sound bite. Professionals can help you develop your own.

Without wishing to open old wounds, the portrayal of professional pilots as overpaid prima donnas has been used with devastating effect before, noteably during the Australian pilots strike. I suggest you need to find professional help in building and delivering your story, including the sound bites. This is especially important because you cannot go too far without seeming to be alarmist and threatening your livelihoods.

Good luck!

P.S. If you hope to get public support for your cause, for a start, stop your colleagues from referring to passengers as "self loading freight".

[cavelino rampante]

Would still like to get some opinions on this one...is Aer Lingus unsafe as well because its Pilots operate 900 hours per year on the A320 the same number as Ryanair Pilots do on the 737?....or are Aer Lingus duties spread out differently to Ryanair making them less tiring on the crews?

[Faire d'income]

is Aer Lingus unsafe as well because its Pilots operate 900 hours per year on the A320 the same number as Ryanair Pilots do on the 737

Aer Lingus rosters are worse and must be considered less safe.

or are Aer Lingus duties spread out differently to Ryanair making them less tiring on the crews?

The exact opposite is true.

But the above misses the point. This is not about Aer Lingus v Ryanair. It is about fatigue in Irish airlines and the IAA's inaction. Pilots in both airlines are complaining consistently but the is no word from the civil servants. The reason Ryanair made Prime Time and not AL was because of the bullying culture alleged by Cullen which prevents pilots reporting fatigue. Aer Lingus is much better in this regard.

Ialpa are not out to stop passengers from flying with FR. That would go against the interests of it's new members. Joe public was not the target audience so Mr. O'Leary's repeated lies were irrelevant. The IAA don't need to be told that pilots work more than 18 hours a week.

The IAA should note that Mr O'Leary doesn't consider time outside chocks off/chocks on as work. He has a legal obligation to cultivate a safety culture in his organisation and he doesn't consider checking flight plans, weather, aircraft defects, notams, route manuals, aircraft exterior, aircraft performance, airfield info, ATC clearances, cockpit security, cockpit checks, cockpit setup, liasing with cabin crew/ground crew and introductory PAs as work. ( I'm sure there are more ) That should set off alarm bells to all concerned. A real regulator would pull his AOC until he demonstrated his seriousness about instilling a proper safety culture.

But the IAA is a business not a regulator.

[Finman]

Evan didn't make the best of the opportunity but in fairness, he was not given much time to speak!

Of Mols assertion that American pilots can work 1000 hours a year (10% more than FR).....the point Evan should have made is this:

Ryanair pilots achieve their 900 hours in 11 months and in many cases close to 10 months. It is not unknown for pilots to run up against the 100 hour wall within 21 days on a monthly basis. That is a working rate equivalent to nearly 1200 hours per year which is 20% more fatiguing than the American system and 30% more fatiguing than the European 'Regulators' intended!

[Hirsutesme]

Well done Finman, a very valid point amidst all the froth. Leo hairy camel,heres the deal, if you promise not to post anymore of your arrant nonsense, I promise not to read it if you do.

[Maxflyer]

First, my credentials:

Simple PPL with an interest in aviation, reasonably regular SLF who uses flag carriers and low cost airlines.

Second, I showed this to my wife who has no interest in aviation. She knows nothing of the behind the scenes anguish that MOL causes his employees. I asked her to watch it and tell me what she thought, I considered her to be impartial.

Her thoughts:

MOL was a nasty little man and she would not want to work for someone like that if he was to pay her 200K for a 10 hour week. She thought the Union man showed restraint and rose above the nastiness aimed at him.

She also thought that MOL acted like a child who has been caught with his hand in the biscuit jar and yet still denies he did it.

Just observations by an impartial viewer.

[10secondsurvey]

With the greatest of respect, Mr. O' Leary obviously understands the way the media works and gave a virtuouso performance, no matter how unpleasant it may appear to you.
May I point out that you need training to use the media and get your message across? A good PR firm could help. The Australian Trade Unions run courses for their staff on how to deal with the media and get their message across - its a skill that can be taught, and unions can do a brilliant marketing job if they work on it. Just ask any Australian pilot what "MUA, here to Stay" refers to.
The Public's attention span is very short. They are bombarded with advertisements all day and the ten second sound bite is all that sticks, hence Mr. O'Leary's repetitive "100,000 for 18 hours work" mantra. The public have no interest in the details of your rostering systems at all, and probably wouldn't understand its implications if they did. All that sticks is the sound bite. Professionals can help you develop your own.
Without wishing to open old wounds, the portrayal of professional pilots as overpaid prima donnas has been used with devastating effect before, noteably during the Australian pilots strike. I suggest you need to find professional help in building and delivering your story, including the sound bites. This is especially important because you cannot go too far without seeming to be alarmist and threatening your livelihoods.
Good luck!
P.S. If you hope to get public support for your cause, for a start, stop your colleagues from referring to passengers as "self loading freight".


As a frequent flyer, with an interest in aviation, I cannot more firmly agree with the above post, which I why I have quoted it in full. I completely sympathise with the crew caught up in working with MOL, but the point is not getting through to joe public IMO.

Stating it's a three on five off or six on two off or seven up and three down (you get the idea) roster, means B*gger all to most pax. I accept that the rostering detail is important, but as Sunfish says, just watch what MOL does. He just repeats the same statement over and over again, regardless of its validity. He does not argue the detail, he is simply talking directly to the public. The 'sound bite' is all that is remembered.

When interviewed recently over security, MOL must have used the phrase 'a million free seats with Ryanair' at least twenty times in a three minute slot. That is all joe public remembers, and off they go to Ryanair.com to book.

Don't forget, as regards all aspects of aviation safety, from joe public perspective, there is a fundamental belief (rightly or wrongly) that 'If they weren't safe, they wouldn't let them fly'.

[captjns]

Saw the VT. Have to say neither impressed me while both may have valid points. I suppose if there were not moderator or time constraint the debate would have been more interesting.

The regulators, in part comprised of our elected representatives and appointed officials, are the individuals who impose a limit on the number of hours a pilot can be scheduled to fly. These limitations have not kept up with the massive changes in the airline industry concerning short haul operations. The regulators need to further define a limit as to the number of the hours to a specific monthly limit expressed as 1/12th of the annual limitation. Unfortunately many airlines lobby the same elected officials we put into office... and well... you probably know how the political system works.

I don’t have to tell you that four or five consecutive days consisting of 10 hour duty days with 4 sectors is far more fatiguing on the body than flying one sector a day knowing that you are going to have about 24 hours of rest.

US pilots are abused to an even greater degree. We have an extra 100 hours per year we can be schedule to fly. The FARs do not impose the same rest requirements as they may in other countries. Under the FARs, while conducting flag operations, pilots can fly 120 hours in 30 consecutive days, however, not to exceed 300 hours in 90 days.

After we have flown to our limits, we as check airmen have to sit in the jump seat and conduct line checks. When riding the jump seat conducting line checks, we are not subject to the required rest or FTD limitations as are in place outside the US, as we are not considered as part of the flight crew.

Pilots in the US are subjected to the same abuse.

At the end of the day it's the same airline but different paint job.

[worldwidewolly]

Is there any chance the IAA can be made accountable?

I phoned the IAA the get their reaction and was given the name of Lillian Cassin their spin doctor. I called her and she complained that the IAA were happy to take part only if the programme was live and couldn't be edited.
Well I am sorry but I thought the programme was live?

Her mobile number is 087 6474079 if anybody wants to complain. 00353c87 6474079 from abroad.

I didn't give my name though and blocked my number, I ain't that stupid.
And moderator, please don't pull this one as the number is being given out by the IAA.

I am not over stepping the mark in giving her number as the IAA head office are the people that gave out her number.

If any of you feel unhappy with these bunch of incompetence, please let them know.

This lady was clearly out of her depth in arguing the case and finally said she couldn't talk about it on the phone. All a bit sinister from an outfit with nothing to hide.

I challenged her about the IAA meaningless PR statement of 'we operate to the highest operating standards'........... I said o.k., lets compare you with the CAA, with their CHIRP set up, for example and the fact they respond to complaints like the ones made by pilots.

I challenged her on every disected statement from the IAA, like when they say they have not seen evidence that fatigue has caused any incident ever in Ryanair.

I asked her was she waiting for the accident so she can have the proof?

Ring this lady if you like, the IAA invite you.

[bear11]

I really, really have to ask myself what the knobs in RTE thought they were up to in trying to cover this important issue by having the head of Ryanair debate the subject with the head of IALPA. Non-aviation folk may not get the irony of the characters, but anyone with half a brain would realise that that either Ryanair operate under different rules in Ireland, or else RTE were trying to blow smoke up their arses. And yet, media comment the day after the Prime time slot was focused on Ryanair and safety. So, I agree with you that “Michael won” and Evan shouldn’t be let near a TV station, but many of you probably didn’t have the opportunity to see the reaction afterward, so RTE should be censured.

This is clearly an industry problem judged by the few honest answers on this thread - not just an Irish problem - not just a Ryanair problem. For the usual suspects to throw their dummies out of the pram and insist this is all about the evil empire and the gnome from Mullingar: ignoring facts, thuggish behaviour, and shouting down your detractors are not exclusive to MOL, try looking in the mirror. I suppose someone’s going to ask if I’m a Ryanair pilot now, or tell me they’ll be keeping an eye on me.

[Fifty Above]

Quite so Bear11, it's not that different in easyJet workwise, just they don't have the oppressive management. The summer that most guys have had in easyJet is unsustainable, yet the promised roster pattern for next year is also unsustainable according to their boss.
From my perspective, 5 x 10-12 hour days is unsafe/unsustainable no matter how many days off I get afterwards, but whether it's Ryanair or easyJet or anybody else, fatigue is and will always be a fact of life in a LoCo and if anybody thinks otherwise, all I can say is try it, then you'll understand.
M O'L might be the Big Bad Boss that other airline executives will try to distance themselves from, but they're the same really, and all are quite happy to reap the rewards of their overworked pilots; it's just that O' Leary doesn't hide his contempt of them.

[Captain Greaser]

What I cant uderstand is if things are so bad in Ryan Air why dont you all just get up and leave.The world is awash with jobs at the moment and I know people that are in Ryan Air years and still have no intention of leaving.There are pilots leaving the likes of Dragon Air for the Ryans!!!:confused:

[PAXboy]

captjnsAfter we have flown to our limits, we as check airmen have to sit in the jump seat and conduct line checks. When riding the jump seat conducting line checks, we are not subject to the required rest or FTD limitations as are in place outside the US, as we are not considered as part of the flight crew.
I have followed this (FR) argument in many threads across several years and choose not to travel with FR. But, I have to say, that this statement from captjns is simply the most frightning that I have seen. How is it possible that a person in the process of testing others for their skills may themselves be fatiqued???? How can any Aviation Authority allow this? It means that the Check Ride has been given the lowest priority. It means that no one knows who is safe. I cannot express how astounded I am to learn this.

Please advise which AAs allow this? Is it just IAA or are those lovely people at CAA and FAA also allowing the carriers to get away with this? I would rather pay the price for the oversight that we are constantly told is in place, then continue to get cheap seats. Yes, I know that most people won't take that attitude.

My admiration to Check Captains who work under this strain.

[ryanair wannabe]

RTE's sensationalist crap VT played into MOL's hands here. The average Irish viewer is not going to be the least bit sympathetic to pilots who have to "fly up to 30 hours a week" and work for "9 hours a day" and "start work at 5am" when a huge number of ordinary working people put in 9 or more hours every day and work over 40 hours a week.

And RTE had the stupidity to show this program the night after a program about junior doctors working 110 hours a week and 36 hour shifts. Admittedly doctors just get to kill people one at a time, not hundreds at once.

There are many other jobs (ATCs spring to mind) where people work shifts, splits, unsociable hours, whatever.

I rarely work less than 45 hours a week. Sleeping on the job is a sackable offense for me. If pilots feel fatigued from working a normal 40-50 hour week the issue is stress, or bad rostering, or inadequate rest periods, not hours worked. Pilots need to get _that_ message across and stop harping on about hours per week which everyone else is just going to see as whining.

[ShortfinalFred]

OK, Mr Moderator, lets try this a different way then:

Leo Hairy Camel can be said to be prostituting his professionalism as a professional pilot that he purports to be by slavishly supporting every word thought and deed of his mill-owner style boss, Mr. O'Lairy. Worse still, the unsustainable nature of the Ryan operation drags down every other operator into the gutter where Ryan's treatment of its employees can be said to be by forcing them to compete with the level of treatment that Ryan dish-out.

Am I alone in being disgusted by every word I read thats written by O lairy's little assistant, Leo?:yuk:

[safewing]

Hi all

I too was disgusted by the unwarranted and slanderous comments made by MOL /LEO towards Evan.

If Mr O'Leary really wants to state his case with the proof to back it up why don't we let this debate continue?

I'd sure like to hear the scientific analysis of the situation we find ourselves in Irish aviation.

Mr O'Leary is forever complaining that the media do not afford him sufficient time to state Ryanair's case and as a result we get sound bite rhetoric in a 15 minute window of television.

Surely if this is a safety issue Mr O'Leary will be happy to clear his company's name. If IALPA wish to pursue this then it is in both parties interests to state the case of the health of Irish Aviation in a modern industrial Ireland.

And let me not forget the IAA who would do well to understand both these polarised viewpoints didn't just happen overnight or on a political analysis talkshow. What are their views?

[Metal_Mirage]

Pos_init hit the nail on the head when he said that MOL gave a good performance (I paraphrase!); MOL gave a great performance! What the punters heard and saw was what others in this thread have already noted, that bloody pilots are overpaid and they only work 18 hours a week, to boot!

Cullen, at the other end of the table, was literally overwhelmed by MOL and the interviewer wasn't very far behind. MOL got the message across that he came into the studio to deliver and I would say he left a very happy man!!!!
Cullen was Bambi in the head-lights for far too long and missed the mark when he did manage to part his lips; talking of which, got to go.............

[captjns]

Cullen was Bambi in the head-lights for far too long and missed the mark when he did manage to part his lips; talking of which, got to go.............

I could not have put it better:E It was as if they were both jockying for losing position in the faceoff

[EddieHitler]

Just has a quick glance at the roster for mon-sun next wk. Just under 34 hrs block time, thats around 46.5 duty hours. So, using the THEOREM OF O'LEARY, "100k for 18hrs work" and his philosophy of basic maths (46.5/18= 2.5 ish), I should be in for a windfall next payday, bring on the 28th!!:ok:

[Sunfish]

One thing all of you might like to note if you ever have to argue matters like safety, is that the boss will not argue what is safe, he will argue what is legal. I once found this out the hard way.

Mr. O Leary's purpose in criticising the TV presenter for not having the IAA take part in the debate was a good tactic. We know of course, like all public servants, if the the IAA or any regulator had been present, they would have explained that Ryanair's rosters were legal and that would be the end of the matter as far as they are concerned.

You have to get your argument packaged into sound bites by a PR professional if you want to win any of these fights.

[Flying Mech]

Ok guys time to start looking out of the goldfish bowl & realize a few hard to swallow facts.
1 Joe public doesnt give a s*** about pilots, all he cares about is cheap travel from A to B
2 There is no point in rehashing this "He said/I said/didn't say" debate,as previously stated nobody cares.
3 joe Public would probably side with MOL if it came to public opinion( pilots work 18 hours a week etc) because MOL is a motormouth who plays the hard done by small buisnessman trying to get on who is being hounded by those big bad IALPA Unioin types.
4 Public opinion is not going to increase any FR pilots pay / decrease working hours / improve working conditions etc for the same reason as stated previously.
So basically it boils down to like it or lump it. either quit moaning & keep working for FR or get out & chase far away hills for greener pastures (Don't get me wrong, I am as anti FR as the next man).

Right thats my tuppence worth.Time to shut up now.:ok:

[Pigsfly]

Evan Cullen, I hope your lawyers are preparing a writ against O`Leary for calling you a "failed Pilot". It was a low punch.
IAA.......hang your heads in shame !!!!!

[montee burns]

The fact the programme went ahead in the first place speaks volumes, not to mention the fact that several fr pilots confirmed the fatigue issue on it. The issue is REAL. MOL calling Evan a failed pilot, sticks and stones mate, 0ctober is fast approaching.
MOLs typical gob****e 'i dont care how its done just do it or else, big schoolyard bully attitude' is once again evident.

Leo,you tried to discredit LOC on this forum before only to have your false allegations dispelled. He was a good bloke who gave fr 10 years of good service. The only thing bogus about his ordeal was the kangaroo court he was subjected to . Good luck to him.
Seeing as you like anagrams and using initials Leo, here s one for you:

MOL, EW, DOB = DO BLOW ME.

Release the hounds smithers,
EXCELLENT!

[the grim repa]

Flying mech - Here's another option.Stay in ryanair,stand up and fight.

[buttline]

I joined Ryanair just because I fancied a break from UK weather. However, it turned out to be a very bad move for me. During earliy shifts I was waking up at 4.30am and not getting home until around 5pm (for 5 days in a row) - I didn't even feel safe to drive home and I'd just landed a jet with 195 people on board (myself included!)

Typical morning rosters from our base were CIA-STN-CIA-BVA-CIA and CIA-BGY-CIA-DUB-CIA - very long days indeed. You frequently got back on the 4th sector to find yourself facing very large thunderstorms or a VOR to circle visually onto the opposite runway - some 10 hours or more after you woke up at 4.30am. I couldn't believe it was legal to fly when I felt like I did. In fact, it's not legal in the UK.

The max duty time under UK rules if you report before 6am local for a 4 sector day is 9:15min. Under Irish rules you can still do a 12 hour flight duty with 2 hours of additional time for discression. For me, this was the most unsafe aspect of the whole operation and it turned me into a walking zombie every 2nd week of my life.

So, I wrote the following letter
-----------------------------------------------------------------

To: Base Captain (CIA)

From: XXXX - F/O (XXX)


Dear Xxxxxx,
Please accept this letter as my formal resignation from Ryanair. I have come to feel that, for me personally, the early shifts we are being asked to fly are excessively long and I often feel unsafe (particularly by the 4th sector) due to tiredness / fatigue. I can't continue to fly when I feel unfit for any reason, as is clearly stated in the Ryanair Operations Manual and is required by law.
------------------------------------------------------------------

My resignation was accepted graciously by letter from Gen Mgr of Flight Ops and I was thanked for my support of the company. I left the company 1 month later with no further communications.

[LegsUpLucy]

This does astound me that IAA ftl scheme does not differentiate between a late start and an early start.
You can start from an 0600 and do 12hours duty or 12pm and complete a 12hours duty.
Where is the logic is the IAA basically saying that a human being performance is not affected by what time they report for duty????
Oh i forgot we are all bloody Androids....................:yuk:

[pancho]

This does astound me that IAA ftl scheme does not differentiate between a late start and an early start.
The problem is the IAA do not have a FTL scheme, it's up to the Operator to submit a set of their proposed FTL guidelines and invariably the IAA will approve them, so in effect each Irish based company has a different set of rules. In other words, the IAA merely tick the boxes in order to meet their "Authority" obligations, dont ask them to create a policy, that would upset the applecart.

[suasdaguna]

me thinks the IAA are h@le open for litugation should heaven forbid a serious event happens in that they failed to address stark issues that other regulatory authorities would have dealt with as against parked.

[RAT 5]

Sunfish & others: If it's legal it's OK.

Driving down the motorway at + 50mph is legal; in the fog it's legal. After the crash it is considered Bl&*)y stupid, but it was legal. The crime was negligent driving. Does the same exist for pilots? Legal does NOT make it correct!!!!! The escape clause is do not fly if you do not consider yourself fit, but risk your livelyhood. I would expect that more than 50% of pilots who have to fly 5 earlies are knackered after 3, How many do the correct thing and cry off the 5th?

[Bearcat]

I do when needs be....very seldom and only do it when I am on my hands and knees..... pull the plug...they wont thank you for it in the stewards inquiry when on your fifth early , last leg when you clobbered the airbridge.

[Sunfish]

Rat5, of course you are perfectly correct. That is my point.

But before an accident occurs the argument willl be made that the rosters are legal under the regulations and it is therefore assumed that those that drafted the regulations knew what they were doing so inter alia - the rosters are safe.

You cannot challenge them without proving scientifically that the research behind them was flawed - and that means destroying the credibility of whoever drafted the regs, not a pleasant or easy thing to do when civil service careers are involved.

Of course if an incident occurs, and fatigue is discovered to be the proximate cause, the employer will then blame the pilot and piously wonder why they didn't call in sick if they were so tired. The trouble there of course is the "double bind" problem (discussed elsewhere or google it yourself) if the employer has an internal corporate culture that discourages taking sick time.

The depressing thing is that it will require a series of incidents before anyone can prove statistically and scientifically that there is a fatigue problem. Only then can the regulations be changed after suitable regulatory backside covering has taken place.:{

[A330busdriver]

Regarding the IAA


They are, and always have been seen as the downtown office of the airlines. Ryanair, amongst others, has brought substantial earnings to the IAA. The IAA are not in the habit of biting the hand that feeds it - quite the contrary. As for the money we as pilots pay the IAA, its small fry in comparison. Ireland is to aviation what Panama is to shipping - a flag of convenience, where the appropiate paperwork is issued for the relevent fee. As for policing regulations or practices, the situation is all too clear.

So get used to it. The IAA are a comercial entity where earnings are paramount.

[akerosid]

I get the impression, reading the posts about FR and the IAA that we're in "Tombstone Imperative" territory; nothing - at least nothing significant - is going to happen until there's an almighty balls-up (aka, "a crash"), traceable back to FR's mgmt and poor oversight by the IAA. You can almost imagine the report now: probable causes:
- Crew fatigue
- Hostile r'ship with mgmt - disincentive to report problems/issues, including fatigue
- Lack of effective oversight by IAA; no effective plan to raise/follow up issues raised by crews;
- Commercial rationale undermining regulatory authority's failure to challenge operator*;
- Other issues?

What happens then? It may seem irrelevant to EI, but what happens if as a result of the IAA being criticised for its oversight, the FAA decided to reduce Ireland to a Level 2 country, which would make it harder for EI to add US routes? That is, of course, way down the list of "bad things", relative to the key issue - safety, but I wonder what would happen if that possibility alone were brought to the Dept of Transport's attention?

Incidentally, has MO'L or FR done anything further to look into Latvia or other countries as a possible base?

(*I know virtually all aviation regulatory bodies receive income from airlines for licencing etc, but are there any others which are as dependant on revenue as the IAA?)

[bear11]

"Quote:
is Aer Lingus unsafe as well because its Pilots operate 900 hours per year on the A320 the same number as Ryanair Pilots do on the 737

Aer Lingus rosters are worse and must be considered less safe.

Quote:

or are Aer Lingus duties spread out differently to Ryanair making them less tiring on the crews?

The exact opposite is true."

Akerosid, did you read the posts? Try the above from Faire d'Income's post #47.

[EddieHitler]

I may be wrong, but I believe Aer Lingus's duty days are a lot shorter than ours here at FR. Have heard that a new system for rostering is being negotiated at EI. At least EI recognoise there is a problem and are trying to fix it, whereas FR claim fatigue is not an issue.

Sadly I believe people would rather risk their lives than their jobs because of the poor relations between the management and their staff.

[RogerIrrelevant69]

There does seem to be a culture in Ryanair of repeatedly saying things that are either not entirely true or just outright lies. The case against REPA recently proved that outright lies were being told by at least two members of senior management.

Now having watched the O'Leary v. Cullen debate we have the following "not entirely true" statements:

1. That the pilots only work 18 hours a week on average. Nonsense of course. Unfortunately it may make a good headline for Joe Public to consume but it is utterly untrue as all pilots know. For that amount of flying, without even examining a typical Ryanair pilot's working week, I would guess 45 hours a week (and with no opportunity for breaks). Real figures supplied here agree with that guess.

2. The suggestion was made about 6 times was that all the pilots are on €100,000. No they are not, but what percentage are? A lot less than 50%.

3. A doctor who contributed to the program noted he had been asked a number of times to supply false medical certificates (to indicate anything other than fatigue or stress). He at no time suggested he supplied such certificates. However OLeary decided in his infinite wisdom that the doctor must have done so and therefore his evidence was entirely unreliable. If I was that doctor I would be more than a little annoyed at that conclusion.

4. IALPA in the parallel universe of OLeary is the Aer Lingus pilots union. Really? Are there no other pilots from other Irish companies in this union?

5. And of course the final "failed pilot" lie about Mr.Cullen. This is extraordinary and if you watch the report again this lie was carefully timed by OLeary to be delivered at precisely a time when no rebuttal was possible by Mr Cullen. OLeary obviously spots the studio floor director doing that "wind it up in 5 seconds" thing they do and chucks that obnoxious comment in at the very last second. Theatrical indeed but it was basically the act of a craven little bollix.

Apart from all that, I found David Learmount's comment about the IAA very disturbing. The fact that a highly respected aviation industry commentator could make such a remark raises more alarm bells than everything else in the program. What he is in effect saying is that the IAA are waiting for an incident or crash before they will act. This makes me think that the idea that the IAA, however large or small and however well funded or not, should be the aviation authority for say scheduled flights between Italy and Spain or Germany and Norway is highly questionable.

The phrase "flag of convenience" springs to mind. Convenient because while the IAA maybe "standing on the sidelines" as Mr Learmount stated, the fact that the sideline is potentially 1000's of miles away (in Dublin) from the operation that should be under constant scrutiny is even more worrying. How long will it be before that part of JAR is re-examined?

[Hirsutesme]

Thank you RogerIrrelevant, you have concisely expressed the views and doubts I hold. By the way, I notice, post the REPA case, that Ryanair ads no longer quote specific ( and often untrue) salaries, they just say "high pay"

[DUB-GREG]

Rat5, of course you are perfectly correct. That is my point.

But before an accident occurs the argument willl be made that the rosters are legal under the regulations and it is therefore assumed that those that drafted the regulations knew what they were doing so inter alia - the rosters are safe.

You cannot challenge them without proving scientifically that the research behind them was flawed - and that means destroying the credibility of whoever drafted the regs, not a pleasant or easy thing to do when civil service careers are involved.

Of course if an incident occurs, and fatigue is discovered to be the proximate cause, the employer will then blame the pilot and piously wonder why they didn't call in sick if they were so tired. The trouble there of course is the "double bind" problem (discussed elsewhere or google it yourself) if the employer has an internal corporate culture that discourages taking sick time.

The depressing thing is that it will require a series of incidents before anyone can prove statistically and scientifically that there is a fatigue problem. Only then can the regulations be changed after suitable regulatory backside covering has taken place.:{



But can i ask a question which seems stupid to me... Why haven't they had a serious accident yet? Just been lucky? Although i dont think luck comes into it when your flying a 73-8.

So how come they havent had a serious accident yet? Anyone?

[RAT 5]

DUB-Greg:

Not sure of your background, but your address is curious. Accidents are the last thing anyone wants; and it would be impossible to know/guess how many close shaves there are everyday. What we know/hear about are frightening enough. Just because there is no smoking hole does NOT mean everything on the farm is rosy. There have been identified fatigue accidents and they were shovelled under the carpet. There have been numerous suspected others. Don't you think it strange that the whole fatigue issue has been aired on the ATC side of things, and it was all well received and caused raised eyebrows, but when the sharp end jockeys start to bleat, it is dismissed as whinging for a few extra payments? If you thought the authorities governing trains, boats and busses were derelict in their duties, when the lid came off after a few mishaps, I would hate to be in the shoes of some people after the next smoking hole caused directly by overwork, lowered standards, excess financial pressure, botched maintenance, various rule bending and cut corners is investigated. It happened in Valujet and the FAA was castigated for having a gross conflict of interest; that of safety and commercial oversight. The report said these should be divorced asap. I'm not sure if it happened in USA, and I'm mighty certain it ain't happened in EU. It's just a smoking hole waiting to happen. I have been in large airline in a major western EU country where commercial survival of the company was allowed by the local CAA to take precedent over crew rostering within local FTL's. Rules were bent to save money and blind eyes were turned. Only after a unionised airline took over the contract, and refused the roster, was anything done about it. That's only 1 instance; how many others are out there. Flags of convenience are rife with this. Foreign a/c flyng charters for operators in one contry, with local pax, using foreign FTL's that are illegal under local CAA rules. It's a joke. You could say that the idea of a JAA FTL scheme is the answer. We have been waiting for over 15 years. We are still waiitng for compensation to be introduced for aviation not being included in the 'working time directive'. That was 15 years ago and still nothing. Indeed working times have get worse, not better.

In any case, does it take an accident to show that working conditions are scandalous in such a safety concious profession in the 21st century? What ever happend to the balanced life. It is too much 'live to work', and NOT 'work to live'. We are always being taught to be proactive in accident prevention. The use of the human resource in the chain is for ever being weakened, be it the ATC, the engineer, the dispatch staff or the crew. Everywhere the power of the fast buck is driving the show. It is going to happen one day; the smoking hole.

[CamelhAir]

DUB-Greg
As Evan Cullen stated on Prime Time, an accident is the last indication of a problem, not the first.
To the IAA/MOL, it appears that the regard an accident as being indeed the first indication.
Luck, or whatever it was, has very much prevented smoking holes in the last year. Try this one for size: http://www.aaiu.ie/AAIUviewitem.asp?id=6946&lang=ENG&loc=1280
Then there was BVS, CIA, NOC... How many events do you need before having a closer look?
Remember, prevention is better than cure. Would you wait til you had a terminal disease before consulting the doctor?
Finally, remember, this is the airline that "forgot" to hand over its report on an incident (CIA) to the relevant authorities.

[the grim repa]

Camelhair - something just occurred to me,when you mention the cia incident.How is it that two captains in dublin are demoted for getting gpws warnings and taking avoiding action,when a captain in cia very very nearly puts one in the ground and he remains on line without any action being taken.A little inconsistent,possibly political,surely the IAA will come out with the answer at some stage.

[RAT 5]

G.R. You can't be serious? I hope not, but if you are, will you please elaborate. It can't be true that a pilot follows the GPWS and gets whacked for it. Of course it depends what it was. If it was a "Too Low Gear", or Too Low Flaps" etc. then there might have been a serious SOP disregard, or the a/c was endangered due negligence. However, if a "Pull UP", and it was followed and the day saved, surely only some research and extra training/discussion how to avoid the problem, again unless gross negligence. Surely every ATC controller who causes an RA, or pilot who causes an RA, is not going to be chopped. What happened to the often professed 'open culture'?

As to an answer from IAA, it will be a 'Mullighan'.

Back to fatigue debate: I still say that a good alert crew can save a broken a/c, but a broken crew can easily crunch a good a/c.

[montee burns]

Rat 5,incredible as it sounds,its unfortunately very true. In one case the main problem was failure of FR to pass on vital info ( which the CP was aware of for weeks before the incident occured ) regarding destination airfield nav aid unservicability to the operating crew combined with insufficient training onto the 800( at the cost of 15k euro to the crew). Approach resulted in egpws and crew correctly went around.
Both crew members were subjected to the now famous FR investigatory and disiplinary process and both were demoted. No attempt was made in the Capts demotion sim check back to the right seat to address where the crew went wrong and to solve that problem.I hope im not the only one who see s this as a major problem.
FR are just not interested in solving problems. They use the OFDM as a stick to beat you with rather than a tool to improve safety. Someone has to be punished at all costs instead of taking a step back and looking at where things went wrong and trying to put a system in place to make sure it doesn t happen again in the future.:\

[OneWorld22]

An awful lot of ignorant comments on the IAA as usual on PPRuNe. a lot of Walter Mitty's on this thread thinking they know best, thnking they know the procedures, management and processes with the IAA but hey, what's new?

A lot of morons on this thread you just know are praying for FR to have a serious accident.

[CamelhAir]

OW22

You seem to purport to have knowledge of the workings of the IAA. Perhaps this is so, if it is, can you tell us how you have this knowledge? And then maybe you could enlighten us about the IAA, let's start with some evidence that they are nothing more than a flag of convenience, actually do take a proactive regulatory role and take seriously the valid concerns of those at the coal face.

A lot of morons on this thread you just know are praying for FR to have a serious accident.

Just the opposite you idiot, hence the concern. I, for one, want to come home in one piece. :mad: If this is the attitude of a supporter of the IAA to those who raise safety concerns, god help us all.

[RogerIrrelevant69]

I have to agree CamelhAir but maybe OW22 was having an off day?

If OW22 really thinks there is anyone here who would wish a serious incident or worse an accident on Ryanair, then I suggest it is he who has the problem.

Regarding the IAA, it is not just on pprune that concerns have been raised about the IAA. David Learmount raised a key concern in the documentary. He is an experienced and knowledgeable aviation journalist who I believe would not make such a comment unless he felt there was an issue.

[bear11]

Would this be the same David Learmount that a cursory search on prune would reveal him to have been savaged on regular occasions by many pilots on this forum as not having a clue what he's talking about?

[the grim repa]

OW22 - as you know all about the I.A.A.Maybe you can enlighten us to what stage the investigation into the dismissal of a ryanair captain for refusing to fly while FATIGUED is at and when we can expect the report into the near disastrous incident over rome nearly 2 years ago.Still waiting!

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Yes bear11, I believe that would be the same David Learmount.

Savaged by a bunch of toothless numpties who should know better but who don't and who never will.

[DH121]

Would this be the same David Learmount that a cursory search on prune would reveal him to have been savaged on regular occasions by many pilots on this forum as not having a clue what he's talking about?

We know David Learmounts credentials, but who are these anonymous people who "savage" him? He is generally well respected by those who work in this industry.

[OneWorld22]

I love it, the faux indignation and outrage from the Usual suspects...:ok: Cut the act, it's obvious. We all know there are those who would love to see FR gets it's "comeuppance" with an accident. You're the sick ones, wanting something dreadful like this to happen so you can run around shrilling "I told you so"

It's just Colonel Blimpism at it's finest. British incredulity that a Paddy is running the most succesful airline in Europe so there just simply has to be something wrong with the set-up :)

I'll turn this around, can we have proof that the IAA does turn a blind-eye to alledged indiscretions? Burden of proof is on those wagging the finger. I know those in the IAA, in Airworthiness and Ops and I had disagreements and run ins with them in the past and they are NO pussies or pushovers. You think O'Leary (who I have no great love for by the way) has them in his back pocket? Laughable and a serious accusation to make without any proof. You should be careful about tarring people like that.....

It's a never ending circle among the chattering clesses in the Pilot community, everyone claiming that FR is about to be nailed, I see it all the time on PPRuNe since as long as I have posted here. Claims that another TV Expose will show what "we have all known" and it will be the end of O'leary and everything can go back to normal.

I remeber claims about 4 years ago from another PPRuNe plonker who claimed that their Maintenance was woeful and a TV programme was about toi nail them and the authorities were going to nail them and it was "inevitable" that an accident was going to happen.

Yet still, nothing. FR still OK, still flying safe......

So how long will this go on for guys? How many more years will we hear the shrilling and shrieking about FR and O'Leary the anti-christ? How many more doomsday warnings etc etc blah, blah.....

Never ends does it guys?! But keep going, it obviously givs you something to do!

[CamelhAir]

British incredulity that a Paddy is running the most succesful airline in Europe so there just simply has to be something wrong with the set-up

Small flaw in your argument, but the pilots expressing the concern on Prime Time were Irish. I'm Irish also and it concerns me. Maybe I am merely a tool of imperial opression?

Yet still, nothing. FR still OK, still flying safe......

Once again, slowly this time, safety is about preventing incidents before they can lead to accidents. The record in this regard is not so good.

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Well I'm Irish too and therefore not of the Paddy bashing ilk either.

OLeary is not the only Irish man running one of the biggest most successful businesses' in the world. Tony OReilly, Willie Walsh and Peter Sutherland also seem to do rather well but without the public aggression or endless court cases. Different class of operators I’d guess….

This is not about Paddy bashing but safety concerns raised by FR pilots, doctors and a well respected aviation journalist about both FR and the IAA.

OW22, criticising FR or the IAA does not make you an enemy of the Republic.

[Pigsfly]

Guys why even bother replying to OW22, if you look at his history, he is an old barnyard rooster past that specialises in cock-a-doodling in Jet Blast. Take his attempt at serious issues with a grain of Irish sea salt.

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Well the thought did cross my mind that maybe he was related to the infamous Idunno/maxalt troll who seemed to live in Jetblast (until recently...) but I was reserving judgement as he didn't seem quite as mad and angry.

Who and ever these "don't knock anything Irish as we're really sensitive and everything the British do and say is wrong" chappies are occassionally amusing....

[ryanair wannabe]

1. That the pilots only work 18 hours a week on average. Nonsense of course. Unfortunately it may make a good headline for Joe Public to consume but it is utterly untrue as all pilots know. For that amount of flying, without even examining a typical Ryanair pilot's working week, I would guess 45 hours a week (and with no opportunity for breaks). Real figures supplied here agree with that guess.


45 / 18 = 2.5. you are saying for every 1 hr flown that pilots are on duty an additional 1.5 hrs? Even though turn-around times are 25 minutes. If you fly 6 x 1-hr sectors in a day you clock in an additional 9 hours of non flying time per day? Eh you're going to have to explain that one - it makes no sense to me. Not to mention the fact that a 45hr working week is really soft going for someone who makes 6 figures. No other industry has it so soft. As I said, just look at doctors or ATCs.

[Pigsfly]

Ryanir Wannabee,

How I hope and pray your wish comes true, that you get your dream job in FR, then after your first week of line training, tell us all about it, how easy it is and how you only worked 18 hours.

I am laughing my a r s e off at the thought of the look on your face when reality hits.

In my FR days new hire FOs under line training were flying 5 6 sector days per week, cos they were not paid sector pay while under line training. So cheaper to use than the qualified FO.

[Monarch Man]

45 / 18 = 2.5. you are saying for every 1 hr flown that pilots are on duty an additional 1.5 hrs? Even though turn-around times are 25 minutes. If you fly 6 x 1-hr sectors in a day you clock in an additional 9 hours of non flying time per day? Eh you're going to have to explain that one - it makes no sense to me. Not to mention the fact that a 45hr working week is really soft going for someone who makes 6 figures. No other industry has it so soft. As I said, just look at doctors or ATCs.

What a plank..do the the maths numpty boy....

report (usually 90 mins before off chocks...thats just reality) mayby 0500z
6 sectors...4 x 60 mins, 2 x 45 mins....and dont forget the 25 min turnaround:ok: 5 x 25 mins

= 455 minutes or 7 hrs and 35 minutes of solid work, no breaks, no time to grab a kitkat or chicken wrap (mayby 20 mins to woof down your food that hasn't been confiscated by the BAA security fuhers), and over half the time spent in a de-humidified aluminium can with reduced O2 levels:ok:
Throw in 3 or 4 4am starts...and you should start to get a better picture of the "reality" of your opinion. Basically Mr RYR wannabe, you wouldnt know your arse from your elbow in this regard, go back to building plastic models, sniffing glue, or whatever it is you do...cos you aint on the same planet pal.

[worldwidewolly]

oneworld22

I will give you your example as to how the IAA are turning a blind eye.
Over 70 pilots in Dublin signed a petition to the IAA stating that fatigue was a factor in Ryanair and the IAA have done nothing, not investigated, taken action, NOTHING.

I don't mean they should take the word of pilots but they should investigate, and thay haven't.

I have personally spoken to Lillian Cassin the IAA press officer and she told me Mr. Eamon Brennan the IAA chief was very concerned.

You see, the IAA make all the right noises but do nothing.

They are a bunch of incompetents, who are not capable of managing aviation.

They are the laughing stock of european aviation, the only thing is if there is an accident nobody will be laughing.

if there is an accident, the IAA better have good lawyers with well serviced JCB's to dig them out of that one.

[Pigsfly]

Well said Worldwidewolly, also spare a thought for the Cabin Crew and how they have been treated over the last 10 years, not having contracts renewed if sick for more than 2 days in a years......have to come in and report to crew control face to face if sick ( I mean our crew control were Doctors ????)........punishment details........hormonally crazy CC management. I always felt more for their treatment than my own........now the only faces i see down the back are eastern european......so i guess the Paddys, brits, scots and spanish had enough shoe leather in their teeth.

[ryanair wannabe]

What a plank..do the the maths numpty boy....

report (usually 90 mins before off chocks...thats just reality) mayby 0500z
6 sectors...4 x 60 mins, 2 x 45 mins....and dont forget the 25 min turnaround:ok: 5 x 25 mins

= 455 minutes or 7 hrs and 35 minutes of solid work, no breaks

Oh this is just too easy. I had no idea you guys were so mentally challenged. Ok then let's humour each other. Let's "do the maths".

4 x 60 + 2 x 45 = 330 flying time 455 + 90 = 545 mins

Now, watch closely : 545 / 330 = 1.65 (which you might notice is not 2.5) So an average of 18 hours flying is an average of 1.65 x 18 = 29.7 hours worked per week on average (or 1485 hours per year). This is well below the workload of almost any other job let alone one that can pay 6 figures.

It's just numbers dude - it's not that hard. If you feel the need to throw insults because you're frustated at not getting this then thats fine - but yoiu woukd be better served trying understand the basic maths.

[brain fade]

Ryanair Wannabe

Just for comparitive purposes. Not from a FR pilot but one who does similar work- UK/ Europe.

Typical 4 sector day 1.

4 sectors of 1h 50 mins 440 mins

1x 60 min c/in
3x 35 min t/rounds
1x 30 mins post flight 160 440+160=600 600/440= 1.36

Typical 4 sector day 2

4 (shorter) sectors of 1.15 300 mins

1x 60 min c/in
3x35 min t/rounds
1x 30 min post flight 160 mins 300+160=460 460/300= 1.53

Looks like you're not far away.

But to put it in context. If in a 5 day period, you were to fly say, 3 of these long days and 2 of the shorter ones.... ie 440x3 + 300x2 tot. 1920 mins or 32 HOURS airborne/ taxiing!!!!!! Which is by no means unusual. Actual duty would therefore be 2720 mins or 45.20 for your week and believe me you would be completely Donald Duck'd at the endo of it.
Also, don't forget, that's just the rostered block times. You could easily be late in fact you invariably would be on a few ocassions.

So you see the 18 hours bit ain't the whole story.
I'd still avoid Fr tho. They always seem to be getting airborne as I arrive for my earliest early or go home after my latest finishing late.:ok:

[buttline]

*16 Apr 06, Sun *3003 *CIA *04:35 Z *07:15 Z *STN
*16 Apr 06, Sun *3004 *STN *07:40 Z *10:05 Z *CIA
*16 Apr 06, Sun *9677 *CIA *10:35 Z *12:30 Z *VLC
*16 Apr 06, Sun *9678 *VLC *13:00 Z *14:55 Z *CIA


Here is my last rostered flying day with RYR before I left (I don't give a t**s if Ryanair can now work out who I am, I'll never work for them again until their senior management and company culture change dramatically).

CIA (Rome) is 2 hours ahead of GMT (Z) in the summer) so this was an 06:35L (local time in Rome) departure. It's a 4 sector day - Rome to London to Rome to Valencia to Rome with 25 min turnarounds in London and a generous 30 min turn time in Rome and Valencia - if you've been there, you'll know why.

Ryanair Rostering Dept consider I reported for this duty 45m before STD which is 05:50L (Local). In fact it was impossible to get everything printed and checked (flightplans, NOTAMS, weather, approach plates) within 45 mins so most of us would report at 05:30L at the latest for a day like this (mostly due to inadequate admin support). This means waking up at 04:30L to get up, breakfast, shower and drive to airport.

As you can see, the scheduled arrival time is 16:55 Local assuming no delays. Let's say the average delay was just half an hour (it was often considerably more) which would mean we landed at around 17:25 local. We had half an hour for post flight duties - means off duty at 17:55 local, just in time for a nice rush hour drive home feeling like death warmed up.

05:30 report to 17:55 off duty ready to drive home = on duty for 12:25 minutes! (Then do something similar 4 more days in a row). 18 hours a week according to MOL? I've just shown you 2/3 of that at work in one day.

The key point I'm trying to make here is that this would be an illegal duty for Easyjet, BA, Monarch or any other UK airline. (Max duty in the UK is 9 hours when you report before 6 local for 4 sectors).

By the IAA allowing RYR to roster days like I've just shown you, is dangerous to the point of criminal negligence in my opinion. It's also an unfair commercial advantage in a region (EU) where we're supposed to have level playing fields.

I am telling you that on a day like this, everyone I flew with (Captain and Cabin Crew), including me was so far beyond tired, we were clinging on by a thread just to carry a normal operation with a funcitoning aircraft. By the 4th sector I noticed we pilots would sometimes slur our words in response to checklists or forget clearances, drop off to sleep in the cruise, become a little irritable etc. All classic fatigue symptoms. There was hence very little spare capacity on board for dealing with emergencies - the safety margins were erroded to the point where I felt that just conducting the normal operation with functioning equipment was very close to the limit of what we could cope with.

I never understood why the company wanted to burn us and risk catastrophe on long days like this for 9 or 10 months and then have us sat idle for 2 or 3months because we hit the 900 hour annual limit. Is there some economy to this I'm missing or was it just piss poor HR and recruitment meaning they couldn't get enough of us - I'm curious to know if anyone has the answer.


Cheers - good luck and best wishes to all at Ryanair Crews and REPA - I laughed my pants off reading the judges findings in the last court case.

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Fairly hostile/snide attitude to reality from ryanair wannabe.

I just supplied a guesstimate (based on my flying experience) of 45 hours duty for 18 hours flying and low and behold actual real figures suggest my margin of error is less than 10%.

Maybe 45 hours worries wannabe and that explains his reaction. It would worry me too if I had no breaks during my working day. Regardless of salary level, which should never be a consideration when you are in the act of performing your job professionally, breaks are very important in any job which requires a good deal of mental effort.

[Faire d'income]

Surely it is obvious that Ryanair Wannabe is no wannabe. He speaks only O'Leary propaganda.

"Low hours high pay...low hours high pay.....low hours high pay.......low hours high pay.....low hours high pay.....low hours high pay"

Drag his hairy ass around Europe for a month and he still would scream low hours high pay...

BTW the high pay claim is almost as false and the low hours.

[Monarch Man]

Now, watch closely : 545 / 330 = 1.65 (which you might notice is not 2.5) So an average of 18 hours flying is an average of 1.65 x 18 = 29.7 hours worked per week on average (or 1485 hours per year). This is well below the workload of almost any other job let alone one that can pay 6 figures.

Eh???????

You've proved my point numpty boy:ok: Quite simply Mr wannabe.....you have no concept of what you are on about....:p

But just to back up a step in this mathematical lesson. Your issue seems to be with the ratio of flying to duty period, or as you put it "This is well below the workload of almost any other job let alone one that can pay 6 figures"
Now given that most flightcrews dont actually earn over 6 figures...your comments are misguided, or perhaps more accurately, utterly deluded to begin with. Secondly you seem to be of the opinion that multi-sector high intensity shorthaul flying is somewhat "easy". Thirdly, as you havent operated in such an environment, you clearly don't accept that the facts presented to you constitute an accurate representation.
Putting all this into the big picture, it is perhaps unsurprising that you are talking out of your backside...mayby you could blame your upbringing:ok:

[Captain Chaos]

:confused: Dont know what all u people are bitching and moaning about.What other airline in Ireland pays so much and u dont even have to do one overnight.
Not Aer Lingus
Not Aer Arran
Not CityJet
Plus all the dosh we get.You guys just don't know how good you got it!!

[Pigsfly]

Chaos returns, as happy as ever.

[Captain Chaos]

Glad to see you missed me.:O

[oskar]

Just reading the previous posts and i laugh at those and the iaa that do not accept the real issues in ryanair. I accept that when i joined i thought it was all great and had an open mind even with all the negative reports that you here on the website, and also within the media and of course within ryanair. This is just my experience, since day one, that i joined i have been aggressively spoken to by members of higher level including a member or two of management. I dont mind the long days or a bit of hard work, it gets difficult when you do not get the support, that one would expect from a big airline such as ryanair. We all have a moan or a bitch in the workplace about our employers in any profession we have. I believe we should all stick together and try and be more positive now and put our energy into making our job within ryanair a better one and one in which we can be happy. Let us all ignore the silly comments from others on this forum that say all is well and happy within ryanair, they are of the mind that they like causing trouble and I believe take this through there every day life and are not worth the hassle. These people should also look at the manner in which our ceo conducts himself within an interview. I was listening to the joe duffy radio show on rte one this week and people are realising the ways of this man. I have never met him so I do not want to say what or who the man really is, what I do know is that people are loosing patience and i mean the public. When you love your job you will do your best to help your employers, I will do my job professionally like my other fellow professionals including the cabin crew and all those who help ryanair to be one of the most profitable and safest airlines around. The way the airline is at todays state, i would not go out of my way to go beyond the call of duty. So guys, lets ignore ryanair wannabe and leo hairy camel an the others that say life is great within ryanair and stay positive and lets stick togther to get what we want and feel is fair before we all throw in the towel.

[silverelise]

Interesting MoL interview in the City section of yesterdays Evening Standard. Took place just before he was off to "visit the BAA offices to discuss the absurdity of the new security rules".
According to him, modern air travel is "crap", and "built on bullsh1t". Like for example the way pilots are called captains and wear gold braid. "An aeroplane is nothing more than a bus with wings on". Seemed to be pretty clear where he was coming from. So I take that as a green light for all RYR flight deck to turn up to work (late) in their civvies, run over a few cyclists when taxying, and keep to schedule by not stopping en route if no one down the back presses the bell.:ok:

[BerksFlyer]

Sorry if its already been mentioned but mol kept going on about how pilots are queuing up to join, why was it not brought to the viewers attention that the only reason for this is that it takes low hour pilots?

[Sunfish]

"An aeroplane "is a bus with wings on", "air travel is crap". If these statements are correctly reported, I wonder what investors would make of them? This sounds like the Ratner school of marketing.

[corsair]

But can i ask a question which seems stupid to me... Why haven't they had a serious accident yet? Just been lucky? Although i dont think luck comes into it when your flying a 73-8.
So how come they havent had a serious accident yet? Anyone?

Just got back from a nice holiday in France, along with my pregnant wife. Flew Ryanair in a nice brand new 738. No hitches, no problems. The Captain was a well known figure from recent courtroom dramas.

So why knowing what I know, would I entrust my life, that of my wife's and our unborn child to the tender mercies of of Ryanair? Two reasons: It was a lot cheaper than a more convenient Aer Lingus flight. (My fault should have booked earlier) and because I trust the pilots, particularly the Dublin based pilots, many of whom I know and have shared a cockpit or two and a beer or two over the years (not at the same time!!). Many of the Dublin pilots are the most experienced in the Ryanair fleet. I felt a lot safer in that aircraft than when I was driving the rental car down the A8 to the airport!

That is 'how come they haven't had a serious accident yet. The pilots dummy! Always the pilots, pros doing their job. Not management, not O'Leary not the IAA but the pilots. Long may it remain so.

It won't of course, I will quote myself from a previous post:
I just can't help feeling that one bad weather day a fatigued Captain or one that has already had a brush with his boss will make a decision based on his fear of losing his job or demotion and make just one more approach..................................

Afterwards we will see a ranting O'Leary on TV claiming that it wasn't fatigue,'After all he only worked 18 hours that week', it wasn't management pressure. It was the crew's fault. The IAA will agree and that will be that, maybe.

[workformonkeys]

Its not just the fatigued pilots you should be worried about, morale in atc is at an all time low and the staff are shown no appreciation for their work. They are also expected to work with controllers who everybody knows are not good enough but have got through the training school.....not so pleasant for those who have to watch them while doing their own job. Fatigued pilots and fed up controllers can only be a recipe for disaster......and the IAA will do nothing about it......until something happens and then, as always they will accuse instead of searching for reasons.:ugh:

[Captain Chaos]

Does anybody out there think that Aer Lingus etc are working less than us? There rapildly heading towards 900 hours a year and at least we at Ryan Air get home every night and we dont have to do the split duties City Jet do.
MOL is operating the airline legally within the rules laid down by the IAA.If you think theres something wrong with the rules have a go at the IAA and stop bitching and moaning about the job.

[DH121]

So poor old Evan's going to end up working for MOL?

[pos-init]

Cpt Chos


Does anybody out there think that Aer Lingus etc are working less than us? There rapildly heading towards 900 hours a year...


The fact that you would write this tell me that you havent a clue what you are talking about - EI do nothing like 900 a year and never will.

we dont have to do the split duties

More drivell which confirm above remarks. RYR do split shifts - they may not call them split shifts but they do them.

[st patrick]

Pos-init, you are the one who does not have a clue what you are talking about. A significant number of 320 pilots in EI are up to either their 100 or 900 hour limit and have to be taken off their rostered flights. How do I know this? I am one of them!!

[pos-init]

None of the guys I know are doing anything like it - 500 max.

Is it possible that the new guys are making up for the older ones?.

[Bearcat]

pos init....i have 890hrs with the green team in the last 12 months.....you havent a clue what you are talking about....back into your cot and play with your toys. this is a big boys forum.

[pos-init]

Bearcat

all I can say is that you are being screwed - none of the lads I know have that between them!!

By the way, dont need to play with toys - have too much fun flying for a living.

[PhoenixRising]

Pos-init, you are out of the loop. Give your AL buddies a call.

[milehighdriver]

If Pos-init has any buddies, then they certainly don't work for AL. Otherwise, they don't know how to add up!
Suggest he stick to the flying instead of talking through his rear six!

[pos-init]

Ah Lads - you are really letting yourselves down.

The numbers dont stack up. AL carries something like 8 million pax a year. If the pilots are doing anything like the numbers you are suggesting, then you are moving an awful lot of empty planes around.

Think about it

[aerobat]

I've worked for Ryanair for three years and never done a split shift yet. Must just be lucky !:)

[x tractor fan]

Its not just the fatigued pilots you should be worried about, morale in atc is at an all time low and the staff are shown no appreciation for their work. They are also expected to work with controllers who everybody knows are not good enough but have got through the training school.....not so pleasant for those who have to watch them while doing their own job. :
This is a bit off topic, but workformonkeys perhaps you should do something about these controllers who are not good enough to do their jobs. Dont you have a duty of care to the travelling public? Or are you one of these guys who will sit back, do nothing and then say I told you so when something goes wrong?

[TolTol]

In paper today that Evan has given MOL 21 days to issue an apology for calling him a "failed aer lingus pilot" and to make a donation to charity. If he doesn't then he's going to sue him because he (Evan) "never failed a professional test in his life".

[BEagle]

Good luck to Capt Cullen!

Rather liked this comment in todays Sunday Times:

“Discontent is never far from the surface at Ryanair, where workers feel mistrusted and mistreated,” said Ingo Marowsky, of the International Transport Workers’ Federation. “Once again, Michael O’Leary’s bombast and bullying has brought it bubbling to the surface. He is going either to have to accept the consequences or learn to behave like a civilised, 21st-century employer.”

[Carmoisine]

TolTol Which Paper was that? Have you got a link?