Racism in South African Aviation as a whole

[Jacobest]

Jetdriver, why lock it, why not delete it all together?, would make a lot more sense, sensorship should be done completely, not half witted?:ok:

[napoleon]

Sensorship is opression just like some forms of racism

[AVSEC]

I work with South Africans within Aviation,and must state categorically that the people I have worked with have been professional,and a good laugh with Local west Africans I have seen them work with.

For the record I have not seen racism against my colleagues within Ghana and Nigeria where I have had the priviledge to work or hang out with South African aviation professionals.

[european champion]

They r racist indeed,i think about 9 out of 10 of them are racist but its because they had appartheid ruling for many years so its still in their blood,i believe as the country is moving to democracy the last few years they will slowly become less racist,it will still take a few generations though.

[skyvan]

For goodness sake, give it a rest :ugh:

[AVSEC]

sorry European champion but I believe you can only speak from your personal experience and not mine.The white south africans I have met proffessionally within Aviation and on immigrational issues have been professional,and have been a great laugh when we have hung out socially.
This is 2006 so lets be realistic and honest.

[windycorner]

I agree - Put a lid on it Euro......
Clearly you are naive and ignorant.

[divinehover]

It's idiots like Euro that would turn me into the racist i never was.

[international hog driver]

I'm not racist.

I hate everyone equally.


The most racist people I have ever meet were not white, they discriminated all of their personal and business decisions based upon the other persons creed.

If you ever work in some parts of Africa and the Middle East you will see it every day.

The people who generally get their panties in a bunch over racism, have never experienced discrimination other than what they have read in a book or seen on TV and are the ones who try and dumb down out standards so that its fair for everyone.

Making decisions from environmentally controlled offices, before they go and get lunch at a resturant and then take clean and available public transport back to their own home.

Well life is not fair,

Try explaining to a woman with 3 kids & no support, that live under a tree on the side of the runway, that has not seen a bath since 2004, wearing rags that they cant have another bottle of water or bag of grain from the back of the plane that is chockers......

Because the guy in the above paragraph has made his decision that you dont meet the standard of being racially oppressed....in between his latte and gluten fee sandwich.

Seen it, have the tee shirt..... which i gave to the woman.

[AVSEC]

International hog driver,very emotional story.So u are like Huff,Cracker and clint eastwood all rolled into one.The reluctant commentator on social ills.Give us a break.There are places in Asia,Europe,America, where what you described can be seen.
Dont make the mistake with confusing the poverty stricken,with racially dominated class.:ugh:
In fact I agree,this should be closed as a thread:eek:

[nugpot]

Off course SA aviation is racist. White males can't get into SAA or the cadet program.... :rolleyes: :E

[napoleon]

Racism is as natural as beathing and thats a fact of life otherwise why do they have to make laws to try to prevent it.

[B Sousa]

"In fact I agree,this should be closed as a thread"

So typical when things dont go your way here........Cry foul to the Mods.

Dont worry the Sensitivity Patrol will axe it soon enough.

[6-String]

Many years ago, the Scope Magazine's editor used to cover womens nipples with stars, lest we see them. That doesn't mean that women don't have nipples..!

[napoleon]

6-String Quite profound that my friend and very pithy.

[windycorner]

Will someone just erase this thread......

To all the above....Go to church, confess or bend your wife over the kitchen sink......anything, but cause momentum to Racial issues in aviation regardless of whether they exist or not.

[napoleon]

As previously quoted: Even though the stars cover the nipples they are still there, like it or not.

[putt for dough]

Blah blah.....
Haven't we all had enough of this topic yet?
Or do we dwell on all the negatives that none of us can do
nothing about:uhoh:

[napoleon]

putt for dough No one is forcing you or any other person to read and or post so just go away and anoy someone else. Self appointed Moderators suck.

[putt for dough]

putt for dough No one is forcing you or any other person to read and or post so just go away and anoy someone else. Self appointed Moderators suck.
All I was stating was my opinion on the above thread.
I think your posting Napoleon was uncalled for. What happened
did your skip wrap you over the knuckles for loosing
the glideslope this morning? Whatever your pathetic reason
is, there was no need to get personal with me,:confused: if you wanna
get personal, go get personal with your dog :ugh:

[B Sousa]

Through all the gunsmoke, it appears Napolean is correct. You should have enough G2 to control your own Computer........You know what the thread is about, go to another one. Dont press your Morals or lack therof on others.

Now that was a polite comment......I must be slipping.

[Phenomenon]

Here we go...

Firstly : I don't think this or any other thread should be locked. Reason being it is now the year 2006 and I think that we have managed to get to a point where free speech is not a crime. And honestly thus far in this thread I can't see any unjustified posts in my opinion.

Secondly : Racism is alive and well not only in South Africa but all over the whole of the dark continent as well as over the globe, and it is definitely not one sided. Whether anyone wants to admit it or not it comes from every race and it is being directed at every race in whatever form. Having said that I'd like to think that even the most racist people in the world have come to a compromise and are making an effort to reduce the effects of past actions. It is a loooong and ongoing process. Keep in mind, Rome wasn't built in a day.

At the moment it is a eye for an eye game. It is now thought that by now disadvantaging the previously advantaged, the balance will be restored??? But how will this effect the next few generations when the tables are just turned? Won't this whole process just start over in reversed order?

Two wrongs don't make a right!

Thirdly : Just because you don't want to talk about it doesn't mean that it doesn't exist as previously said. So if you want to live in your own little world where you think it doesn't exist you have a simple option... DON'T READ THIS THREAD!

[european champion]

Divinehover u dont have to insult people for stating their opinion,if u get so emotional go to ur mom and cry or change a thread.

[Phenomenon]

Divinehover u dont have to insult people for stating their opinion,if u get so emotional go to ur mom and cry or change a thread.

True, but aren't you doing the same by saying the above? Sounds like an insult to me...

Just a thought... use it, don't use it.

[JG1]

Directory > Reference > Britannica Concise racism

"Any action, practice, or belief that reflects the racial worldview-the ideology that humans are divided into separate and exclusive biological entities called “races,” that there is a causal link between inherited physical traits and traits of personality, intellect, morality, and other cultural behavioral features."


So, according to the above definition, Affirmative Action policies are racist.

They should include in the definition that only Whites can be labelled Racist - similar behavior in other race groups is labelled affirmative, progressive, politically correct.:yuk:

[napoleon]

Another pithy post. I do believe that in the jolly old US of A its not possible for a White to accuse non Whites of racism. Which of course if its true is hellishly racist.

[Phenomenon]

Affirmative Action policies are racist.

No it's not! It doesn't disadvantage blacks, it only disadvantages whites... :}

And that is the opinion of our oh so great South African Government!

[4HolerPoler]

Keep it nice please guys - debate the issue by all means but avoid personal attacks or rants. This subject always draws our friends from the fringes - keep the discussion moderate & I won't have to wade in.

4HP

[B Sousa]

" I do believe that in the jolly old US of A its not possible for a White to accuse non Whites of racism. Which of course if its true is hellishly racist."

Trust me, nappy, its touchier here than in South Africa. The Liberals here have made many names, except those against whites very "Offensive"......I have less problem in SA than I do in mainstreet Amerika.

[napoleon]

I cant imagine being so insecure that someone refering to my race or treating me according to my race would make me feel Insecure, mad, pi**ed off, or whatever.

[AVSEC]

I mean no offence by my comment,but reading most threads sent to this forum,I cannot help feeling that there are many contributors who only feel comfortable when reducing any debate to a racial argument.
I can now see why the moderator wants to close the thread,and the moderator has my vote to do so.

[B Sousa]

"the moderator wants to close the thread,and the moderator has my vote to do so.'

Well thats a bright ray of sunshine....

[Coleman Myers]

From where I'm sitting the people trying to get black guys and girls flying sound very white (by name that is) to me::confused:

South African Airways New Pilot Training Program.

South African Airways is on the brink of introducing a radical new pilot training programme, which will see trainees taking their place as co-pilots after 70 hours actual flying time.

The bulk of the training - 250 hours - will take place in flight simulators, which allows trainers to slash actual flying hours in a real aircraft by more than half. SAA spokesperson Jacqui O'Sullivan has confirmed the details of the new programme.

The cost-cutting initiative is part of efforts by the national carrier to introduce more black people into its pilot ranks.

Called a Multi-Crew Pilot Licence (MPL), the International Civil Aviation Organisation (ICAO) is currently drawing up programme standards and regulations, which could be ready in mid-2007, according to Captain Colin Jordaan, general manager of SAA's flight operations.

However, pilot associations around the world, including the Airline Pilots Association of South Africa (Alpa-SA), do not support the MPL, saying the safety of passengers will be compromised.

Jordaan said in an interview this week that the initiative would fast-track the num-ber of black pilots employed by the national carrier. At present, the airline employs just 66 black men and women pilots out of a total of 796.

SAA's target, introduced in 1996, was to have 300 black pilots by last year.

Jordaan said the new type of licence would be "a heck of a lot cheaper" to implement than the airline's cadet school, which costs SAA R750 000 per person for the intensive 18-month course.

SAA already owns four simulators required for the new training and would thus only be paying for electricity and maintenance costs, he added.

Jordaan said the airline was intrinsically involved in the ICAO steering group drawing up the MPL regulations and that information was fed regularly to the South African Qualifications Authority to ensure that the programme, when implemented, would comply with the country's training regulations.

"We will be able to take a person off the street and train them in our simulators for between 12 and 18 months.

"They will then be able to move into the right-hand seat of a Boeing 747 as co-pilot," Jordaan said.



He said the course would be designed specifically for airline flying and would not devote any time to "unnecessary aspects" such as using topographical maps.

The course would entail just 70 hours of flying time in a real aircraft as opposed to the 200 flying hours required in order to get a commercial pilot's licence.

MPL graduates would only be able to fly in a "multi-crew environment" for the first few years, he added.

Opposition to the plan has been widespread, with organisations such as the European Cockpit Association (ECA), representing 29 professional pilots' associations, saying that the MPL risks downgrading the standards of commercial flight training when aircraft are becoming increasingly complex and when air traffic is expected to rise substantially over the coming years.

"Downgrading of these standards can not be accepted in an industry that relies on a permanently increasing safety profile and which faces numerous challenges over the coming years," the ECA said.

Alpa-SA president Harvey van Rooyen said he was concerned that while simulations could be useful, weather patterns such as storms could not be simulated.

The new licence was "obviously about costs" and Alpa-SA did not believe that 18-year-olds off the street would be able to handle intensive pilot training.

More thought should be given to taking in university graduates who were PC literate and had certain "technical advantages", said Van Rooyen.

"It is a little bit of a leap forward and people are just assuming it will work but I have my reservations. Flying is not monkey see, monkey do. You need to create people who can think under pressure. [/I][/I][/I][/I]

[SpringbokDreamer]

The above is scary...

The Whole Inverse Racism is certainly a force to fight against... lets all be Civil Peeps and just get on with keeping Aviation safe. For Crew and for pax.


"Racism is a force of evil designed to destroy good men"

Not tooo sure of the original origin but I read it in Bryce Courtneys 'The Power of One'

:sad:

[Afriviation]

Racism in South Africa exists in the minds of most people although it’s no longer a government policy. Historically the white person has been superior to the black person and still is economically etc. There is therefore an evident power gradient that exists. In my opinion therefore a black person cannot be racist in these circumstances. The term racism emanated from this power differential which the more powerful abused leading to the demise of the inferior.

I do understand that there might be fundamental realities e.g cultural background, values etc that we cannot all mingle as different races. I don’t have a problem with that. Where racism hurts the most in South African Aviation and other sectors is where you had these policies for years and then suddenly expect the “inferior” to automatically ascend to the same level of the “superior” without an intervention. There has to be a mechanism to get these previously disadvantaged people to a level where they can be expected to compete for the limited resources.

Now I am going to make a controversial statement and say anyone who does not agree with this, is certainly happy to see the status quo remain and in my view is therefore racist.

[4HolerPoler]

Afriviation, a final warning that it is not acceptable to continue your, now predictable rant based solely on the color of one's skin. This site is a forum for the primary use of professional pilots - we have no concern as to the pigmentation of one's skin and treat all as equals and will not tolerate the use of this site as a grandstand to drive a wedge between pilots of different cultural groups.

The ball is in your court sir; your move.

4HP

[Afriviation]

If I have to be banned from this forum for speaking the truth - be my guest. If you have to protect those that the truth hurts go on ban me. I haven't attacked anyone or insulted anyone. i just happen to be firm about my convictions and we'll certainly challenge any thread that is anti the development of black people and will support those that are for it period.

It will not be unusual for the powerful to gag and suppress the voices that seek to liberate, If it wasn't for the likes of Mandela going to prison for 27 years and the scores of those that died in the ruthless hands of white oppressors, we wouldn't be where we are today in South Africa.

So In anticipation of the inevitable, So long pprune and your black people bashing threads.

[Shrike200]

So.....whats the atmosphere like on your planet Mr Afri? :)

Or.....how many angels can dance on your head? (think about it! :) )

[Afriviation]

It's okay for shrike 200 to post a personal attack on me, but it's not okay for me to respond my views on contentious topics on this forum. Like it or not the issue of racism etc won't disappear on this forum. I was suspended from posting here for a number of months, in my absence there were scores of threads of this nature. Seems to me the only trouble 4HP has is me being the one of the few who would oppose the masses of pprune, which baffles me' cos for any thread to be interesting there's got to be opposing views.

[barkingboris]

To Afriaviation
Pal have your rant but please point out to me one successful African country......None
This new program at SAA will be a disaster, as you pointed out one cannot expect the previously disadvantaged to catch up overnight but where it comes to safety in aviation one cannot take a chance.If you dont agree then you are blinded by need to promote people above their capabilities.
Medical degrees obtained post 1996 are now not automatically recognised overseas like they used to be and one now has to write exams to practise abroad.A C average is enough to get into a medical school.This has been done to promote the education of black doctors BUT again the standards have been lowered.
I am not making this up as most of my friends are doctors and are VERY concerned by the current goings on.
Take a look at the scorn and ridicule that Dr Beetroot and Mbeki have cause SA to be subjected to due to the HIV/AIDS stance.Makes you think
......................or not

[Coleman Myers]

Afri - you are understood. We have an operation that has a healthy mix of all Gods miscreants and from time to time the disputes are there. There is a fine line between what one can call a "cultural observation or difference" and a racist remark or action.

Whilst I don't agree with fast tracking people through a system to comply with quotas, I do agree with actively encouraging aviation participation by all races, minorities and if neccessary investing in policy. Cost cutting however is an affront to safety and the wrong approach.Don't get yourself banned from posting over emotional issues, you have a sound contribution to make.

Shriko - is the little green fairy dancing in your mind - dude, heat the absynthe before serving :E

[B Sousa]

"the scores of those that died in the ruthless hands of white oppressors, we wouldn't be where we are today in South Africa."

AFRI
Slow down a minute...... You guys kill more of your own than the Whites could do in a hundred years.

And the ONLY reason your running the show in SA is because the rest of the world turned a blind eye. It is ALSO now on the downhill slide, thanks a bunch.

[AVSEC]

B Souza,that is really offensive.:=
Please do not tell me that you actually believe that sentiment you expressed.
You are not a very nice person if you not only think,but express such sentiments.:ugh:
Thank God for change of times,or this world would have a Nazi emperor,and social policies that would spell doom for mankind.

CLOSE THIS THREAD MODERATOR.

[Afriviation]

I think I’m still out on bail, better use the limited time effectively.

I know this is a rumour network, but some of the prejudiced posts here with unfounded statements are sickening.

E.g
“Pal have your rant but please point out to me one successful African country......None”

“This new program at SAA will be a disaster”

“Slow down a minute...... You guys kill more of your own than the Whites could do in a hundred years”

If you have to defend the status quo, try and be a bit more factual and don’t just throw blind punches. Instead of crying standards and Safety why don’t you come out and say that you think black people are stupid and therefore they should not be Pilots?

That won’t be seen odd, as the topic of this thread suggests.