***warning***

[Danny]

Having decided to have brief look at the Dunnunda forums I have been appalled at the amount of cr@p that has been posted on these forums since I last looked a long time ago. Too many threads appear to deteriorate into p!ssing contests between spotters and enthusiasts about who knows more than the other about the airline industry.

From now on I am instructing the mods to be especially vigilant and if ANY post is not connected in some way to PROFESSIONAL PILOTS then it will either be deleted or moved to a more appropriate forum such as, for example: Airlines, Airports & Routes; Cabin Crew; Private Flying; Biz Jets & GA; Spectators Balcony (Spotters Corner); Military Aircrew or whatever. For far too long this forum has become a scrap heap for anything that has wings and recently even news items that have absolutely nothing to do with aviation let alone professional pilots.

The time has come for you all to realise that PPRuNe stands for The Professional Pilots Rumour Network. If you have an urge to discuss something about PPL's and it is related to something to do with getting a professional licence then it goes into the Private Flying forum. If someone crashes their C150 or PA28 or whatever then it goes in the private flying forum as long as the aircraft was involved in some way in training someone for their professional licence. If it is just Joe Bloggs who was out for a joyride then it doesn't go on PPRuNe. There are enough enthusiasts sites out there where you can argue to your hearts content about the minutae of general aviation. If it isn't related to Professioanl Piloting then it doesn't belong on here.

I suggest to those of you with a bent for arguing the point that you find yourself another website as I will not be entertaining argument about my decision to get these forums back on their original intended track as you may find a wasted effort, especially with long winded responses that may get deleted. Sod free speech. I pay for this website and I decide what does and what doesn't remain on here. Forewarned is forearmed! :=

[hoggsnortrupert]

Danny why has it taken you so long to see the light in NZ,
A small country, every one looking out at the big wide world.
In NZ the very act of aviation is committed differently, we believe everything we read, hear, and always leave it to someone else to complain, let them lose their head, and we can all move up the ladder one rung?
The whipping shall continue until moral increases.:ok: :ok:
H/Snort
( Hey thats two posts in one night, now where's my beer?)

[Clare Prop]

I can't see why the Jandakot Airport thread was moved, it is an issue that affects all of the many professional pilots who work there . :confused:

[Danny]

It only takes one 'know-it-all' or enthusiast who thinks they know more than everyone else but with no experience to back it up for a thread to degenerate into the inevitable mess that has been the norm here for so long. If your issue is about professional jobs then fine, it will stay. However, if the thread becomes an 'experts' (NOT) opinion about the pros and cons of locating the airport and sounds to me or another mod as just the usual enthusiasts debate then it will either be moved to the forum that discusses airport as well as airlines and routes or else will be removed from the forums.

Unless the message that this is a PROFESSIONAL PILOTS website and that unless the debate is directly about PROFESSIONAL PILOTS or the myriad of associated issues then it just doesn't belong on here. There are just too many hotheads that are taking advantage of PPRuNe to stir up things with their own agenda. The time has come to get rid of these oh-so-brave individuals who don't have the cojones to use their real identities because they know saying what they do face to face would result in injury or litigation.

If you want to discuss anything that is directly related to PROFESSIONAL PILOTS and professional aviation then by all means go ahead. If all you want to do is try and bullsh!t those of us who are professional pilots or in the business with your supposed knowledge of all things aviation but has nothing to do with what I consider PROFESSIONAL PILOTS then it is going to be moved or removed. It's as simple as that and if you can't accept it or understand it then tough! :=

[Sunfish]

For the record Danny, I respectfully suggest that you are way out of line on this matter because you don't understand the territory.

For a start, this is not "little Britain' full of cosy little villages and "farm strips" for weekend warriors.

When we are talking about Jandakot, Point Cook, Essendon, Evans Head and elsewhere, we are talking about very major bits of relatively scarce infrastructure. Jandakot is the only "full service" GA airport for a thousand miles. Australia is not covered with large concrete runways and the impact of closure or movement will have a major impact on professional and recreational pilots alike.

Moorrabbin and Point Cook (don't know about Jandakot) have schools that train hundreds of Asian (professional) pilots per year, but of course you wouldn't know that. Almost all GA airports in major cities are under pressure from property developers, but you wouldn't know that either. Changes to these places will have major and continuing impact on Aviation at all levels.

Similarly, it appears even from my own limited experience that aviation downunda is a little more closely connected then perhaps it is in Britain, and some of the "Idle Talk" you read on these pages is actually code.

If you wish to restrict your forum to professional pilots go right ahead, but in doing so in my opinion you will lose considerable content and value because there are people like myself and others who don't know much about being a professional pilot, but who have had some modest exposure to the aviation business and are able to answer some of the (occasionaly asinine) questions professional pilots ask about their industry that no one else can.

I am happily a weekend warrior, (puffs out chest and gets on high horse) I've worked as airline engineering staff, government consultant responsible in part for getting more investment and jobs into aviation and aerospace, a development manager for a major aerospace company. I've run a few businesses and worked for a few Boards, and I happen to think that every one of my contributions is pure gold:ok:

Translation: Leave it to the local Woomeri Danny, they seem to do a reasonable job!

[OpsNormal]

Sunfish, there are times I agree with what you say (quietly), and then again there are other times you are so wide of the mark, pompous and patronising it isn't funny (like now).

My joined date here may say sometime "this century", however I can assure you I've been here since just after PPRuNe was an email ring (1996). The difference in the mood here nowadays is like chalk and cheese, and in fact I would put much of the angst down here these days to spotty little wannabees or kiddies with daddy's money and computer getting on here playing bigshot know-it-all.

The rot really started with the 10 year anniversary '89 thread where many tempers became very frayed. From that point on it seems that it became "accepted behaviour" to ridicule and belittle and generally act and post like smug anonymous mummy's boys and girls. You've come in somewhere along the line Sunfish and it seems that you value your opinion just as much as many of those mummy's boys and girls.

Wow, you've been on a couple of boards, so what? Does that make you better or more knowledgeable about his/her craft than a professional pilot? I know my post looks outwardly like it derides you Sunfish, but look at it this way: Do you just invite friends to a party (because you know them and for the most part they will behave), or do you invite the whole of Melbourne (or wherever you live), so that thay can come to your place and continually fight and trash the joint?

Now can you see where this is all coming from? There is more than enough room in PPRuNe for well informed persons (not neccessarily working at the coalface of the industry), just not the dickheads. I know I for one get cranky with stupid and moronic questions and behaviour and I guess Danny has just called "enough". Good on him and Rob I say, fair enough too.

100% support here.

OpsN. ;)

[Sunfish]

Thank You for your post Ops. Perhaps I am being pompous, hence my tongue in cheek comment. The point I was making is that if Pprune rigidly sticks to its professional pilots mantra, then it will lose some valueable inputs along with the silliness. I'm not classing my input as valueable although on some matters I believe I have been able to shed a little light.

I understand Danny's concerns regarding litigation, but let's face it, the aviation industry is rife with self censorship - the discovery of the levels to which this extends came as rather a shock to me, and Pprune is about the only place I can think of where it is possible to air certain issues at all.

[A1BUGSMASHER]

Danny, 100% support here too. :D Finally an end to the who has the biggest debate, and also some much needed support to the woomeri team.

If you wish to restrict your forum to professional pilots go right ahead, but in doing so in my opinion you will lose considerable content and value because there are people like myself and others who don't know much about being a professional pilot, but who have had some modest exposure to the aviation business and are able to answer some of the (occasionaly asinine) questions professional pilots ask about their industry that no one else can.

Sunfish, with the all due respect, if professional pilots have questions they want answered that fall outside the dununnda forums, they can ask them in many of the other forums available.

While I was an instructor not so long ago (and enjoyed the challenges), and have some very strong views on the training system here in Australia, there is a forum dedicated to this. As far as being a professional pilot goes, having a whole bunch of posts regarding the latest fly away someone has done etc becomes a little annoying, then to top it off the same handle is discussing topics that relate to professional pilots.

I hope this marks the beginning of pilots sticking together as currently there are many concerning decisions being made by higher powers regarding pay and conditions.

Bugs:ok:

[RYAN TCAD]

Well Danny - Its quite amazing actually, you have identified the very state of the Australian Aviation Industry itself.

Full of:
Bull**** artists
Backstabbers
Ladder climbers
Whingers
Whiners
Know it alls.

I do admit everyone is not like this within the industry, but the ones that are, give it such a bad persona.

It is no wonder that all the pilots cannot unite and stand up for the basic things like pay and conditions within the industry.

Oh and BTW, thats how management like it!

Bo!

[Sunfish]

A1, go ahead and do what you like. It's Danny's forum, as he says, he pays the bill. However it doesn't change my point of view, which is that Pprune will be poorer for it.

You make your own argument however:

I hope this marks the beginning of pilots sticking together as currently there are many concerning decisions being made by higher powers regarding pay and conditions.

Given the ignominious and continuing failure of pilots as a group to address these matters successfully (as evidenced in Pprune itself), I would suggest that your comment:

if professional pilots have questions they want answered that fall outside the dununnda forums, they can ask them in many of the other forums available.

Is incorrect. Pilots never seem to ask anyone anything, and therein lies a very large part of your wages and conditions problem, as I am sick and tired of explaining. I have a great deal of sympathy for professional pilots, but driving a wedge between various chunks of the aviation community is not going to help your cause.

To put it yet another way; The precise and infinite distinctions between pilots on the basis of race, tribe, caste, rank and pecking order are the achillies heel of professional pilots, as evidenced by twenty five years of industry tumoil. Don't make any more distinctions please lest you totally alienate everyone else.

I know its great for the ego to be part of an exclusive group, but you never know when even the lowly "Spotter" that most of you so contemptuously dismiss is going to provide a crucial bit of evidence or the casting vote somewhere that it counts - and since truth is stranger than fiction, I'm not joking.

[Chadzat]

I too respectfully disagree with the "changes"

Having just looked at the reporting points board....half of the topics have been moved all over the forums!! Look up above ^next to where it says:

D & G Reporting Points Airline and RPT issues in Australia and enZed.

Aren't those threads that have been moved fitting exactly into this category?

I am a new professional pilot...and to me I don't want to be searching high and low all over the forums for issues that are happening in aus. Ie the ****** and Skywest threads impact me as that is where I see myself in 5 years time maybe.

Why not keep it the way it is (with ALL PROFESSIONAL) issues happening in aus and nz kept in these boards and Woomeri given more power to remove threads as they see fit.

Just my 2c.

[tlf]

Well kick me out if you wish after I've had my say.

A recent post of mine, in a thread which has now been removed was critical of woomera over the locking of the Steve Irwin threads. I said in that post that if we as a collective group of professional aviators cannot acknowledge something like the death of a national icon such as Steve Irwin or Peter Brock then they should enforce ALL the rules and eliminate anything not related to PROFESSIONAL pilots which this forum claims to represent. My views were supported by several other posters. I can't help feeling that Woomera has gone crying to the boss man that people were ganging up on him, hence the reason for this thread.

Now as I said in that post, aviation or in this case supposedly PROFESSIONAL aviation is what brings us together in this forum, it's our common bond. In my opinion it's not unlike a bunch of us meeting at Adelaide's former Aviation Institute for a beer or two after work. Just because we were in a bar did not mean that conversation had to be limited to beer, although VB vs any other brand often came up. Often what was on the agenda for discussion would be aircraft, work conditions, or all kinds of other aviation related matters. Did this mean that when the the first Gulf War broke out we turned off the TV, no of course not. It was a temporary change in what was discussed by a bunch of aviation professionals who were there at the time. Some didn't have a lot of interest in that, so they discussed other things at another table. That's cool, it's just like ignoring a thread which has a topic of no interest to you. Eventually the gulf war ended and we all went back to discussing matters aviation.

My point is that if we choose to acknowledge an event other than aviation in our forum it should be treated as what it is, a temporary spike of off topic chatter. Let's face it the Steve Irwin threads have, after a couple of days gone quiet.

It seems to me that most internet forums exist only to massage their owners egos. Some take off and grow into very large sites such as this one and airliners.net, and without exception they seem to reach the point where the control freaks just like to censor this and censor that if they don't agree. So the bottom line is don't come bitching about "I own it" or "I pay for it", there's no law which says you have to do it. If it's such a burden, don't do it. There's a lot of advertising on this site, doesn't it cover much of the cost?
It's not unlike the kid who doesn't get his way so as owner of the football goes home and takes his ball with him screwing it up for everybody.

So there ya go, feel free to cancel my account if you wish, If I have offended anyone with this post, so be it. People who know me know that I speak my mind and I don't hold back. As I've been saying for 20 years or so "Political correctness will be the end of civilization as we know it"

tlf
US ATP Holder
Australian ATP Holder
Professional Aviator

[dijon moutard]

look pprune has always been kind of different ; pilots are like that. i have never participated until recently although i have been a keen watcher !!!!!

how can anyone from the uk understand what is going on here in the "land down under"; we have issues here that we understand that impact the Professional Pilot like "jandakot" or "alliance" or "skywest" or "virgin blue".

why should this be just a forum for the "old boys" like qantas or the "old country".

one thing i notice about the "old country" is how closed their minds are or their lack of perspective on issues facing our lives and industry. my family has had direct involvement in the airline industry since 1954 (the good old days of TAA ) !!!!!!!!

dijon moutard:ok:
ATPL (since 1980)

[Jerricho]

There is a forum on this site called Jet Blast. Perhaps some should pay it a visit.

[A1BUGSMASHER]

Sunfish,
To quote from Danny's original post:
I have been appalled at the amount of cr@p that has been posted on these forums since I last looked a long time ago. Too many threads appear to deteriorate into p!ssing contests between spotters and enthusiasts about who knows more than the other about the airline industry
Enough said
A1:ok:

[Tidbinbilla]

I can't help feeling that Woomera has gone crying to the boss man that people were ganging up on him, hence the reason for this thread.
Absolutely incorrect. Danny has in fact left these forums more or less alone for several years now, under the watchful eye of the Woomera team. We collectively have given these forums a pretty easy run by all standards. Perhaps too easy considering the liberty some people take. Danny wants things tightened up. So be it.

As for crying to the boss. Please....We can look after ourselves, thank you very much :rolleyes:

You're free to do with your membership as you wish tlf. That includes leaving if this site no longer fills your needs. One thing's for sure. The owner sets the rules and the moderators will apply them. If that upsets a few people, then that's the way it is.

As for censorship, see above. Some people here think that just because they hide behind an anonymous identity they can say whatever they want with impunity. D&G has been closed at least once as a result of libellous or slanderous posts. I've lost count of how many times legal action has been threatened against Danny by numerous individuals. Yet in spite of this, he has left these forums open. That has largely been as a result of the Woomera working in the background trying to keep things on an even keel.

PPRuNe is not a place of free speech, no matter what you might think your "rights" are. If you want to maintain your anonymity, DON'T post defamatory statements! Then we won't need moderators!

I draw your attention to the Ten Thingies at the top of these pages.

[Bula]

I live, breath and work in Oz and for one think that danny really doesn't understand the Oz situation. Everyone knows everyone and Serious questions in a struggling industry are posted. NOW do i care about going into other forums.. no. I really couldn't give 2 hoots BUT this forum has become a way for people to communicate where, because of distance, people cant.

Dan you have to understand this, and quite frankly I agree about with all the pissing and farting that goes on. If a moderator doesn't want to do exactly that put someone else in charge because there is no reason to take such a heavy handed approach.

Shame shame shame :) (but of course you might not know that one... its an aussie thing :E :E )

[tlf]

.

As for crying to the boss. Please....We can look after ourselves, thank you very much :rolleyes:




As can we, most of us are mature enough to ignore the crap, we don't need censors to dictate what we can and can't read here. By all means remove thing which could attract litigation, but please don't tell me what's good for me.

Trevor Fenn
Not hiding behind an anonymous nom de plume

[WoodenSpoon]

There is a forum on this site called Jet Blast. Perhaps some should pay it a visit.
But according to Danny, Post #9, here (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=232954) you cannot post on JetBlast without having purchased a personal title. :ugh: :mad: :ugh:

[Woomera]

Guys....I didn't read anything in Danny's posts of last night and this morning that left huge latitude for debate.

Changes are occurring and it seems the many headed hydra that is Woomera will devolve into each of us moderating under an individual Mod name...like Tidbinbilla above....just thinking up one for me at the mo:confused: .

Danny ownes Pprune...think about that.

Would you allow people in your home to slag off other guests?

I know I have asked people to leave my home before for exactly that...so if you don't want to play by the rules please leave.

The Woomera have NOT gone running to Danny with our collective tails between our legs...stuff has happened in the background that has caused Danny concern and he has come to D&G and made his feelings known...we as D&G mods will do our best to moderate accordingly.

I am going to lock this thread but leave it stickied...Danny is not seeking dissenting opinion on his decision and this thread will not turn into the usual whinging about the mods which has been a feature of late. You are wasting you time writing posts in an effort to wind back the clock 24hrs.

Soon to be something else

[Danny]

Just thought I'd add that perhaps some of you need to get out a bit more and read how the rest of the world does professional aviation. If you want to discuss flying instructor issues then you go to the Flight Instructors forum. If you want to discuss how you think Qantas or Jetstar should be managed and run then you either go to the Spotters Balcony forum or the Airlines, Airports & Routes forum. If you want to discuss Steve Irwin then you go to Jet Blast.

It has become very apparent to me over the years of running this website that one of the main problems facing you Antipodeans when it comes to professional aviation is that you have become too insular. You have come to believe that you are somehow special or so different from everywhere else on earth that you are a special case. Well, perhaps it is time to wake up and smell the coffee. The problems you have with airport closures and the difficulty getting that first paid job as a pilot or believing that you know better than the owners how to run an airline or in this case a professional pilots website are not exclusive to Godzone people. They occur all over the world and the only difference is that the scale is different.

Please tell me how can a country with an aviation idustry the size of Australia's warrant such an exclusive forum. You seem to think that because you are tucked away in a huge continent that you have in some way evolved differently when it comes to our profession and everything associated with it.

I have met and flown with enough Australian and New Zealand pilots during my career to understand that those of you who have never had to venture outside of your area to fly professionally seem to think that what you do, the problems you face and the environment you fly in are somehow exclusive and different. Well, let me tell you, you need to get out more often and experience how the rest of the world do it.

As for the spotters, enthusiasts and anyone else who has an interest in professional aviation, you can use this site and the areas dedicated to your enthusiasm or hobby. However, just because something has wings does not mean that it has to be mentioned on here. The numerous threads I have seen that go on about an accident or incident involving some private aircraft just go to show that some of you obviously don't understand what is meant by PROFESSIONAL PILOTS website!

To assist you in coming to terms with the planned changes to this and other forums, and this is by no means comprehensive, you should consider the following categories of professional pilots and associated jobs as they rank for inclusion as topical on this website:

Airline pilots of medium and heavy jets; Airline pilots of regional jets and turboprops over 20t; GA professional pilots of other multi-engined aircraft; Military pilots; professional helicopter pilots; professional pilots of other a/c types including lighter-than-air (powered).

Next we have:

ATC; Cabin crew; Flight engineers; Ground engineers; Flight Dispatchers; Operations; Crewing; Rostering.

Next:

Flight instructors; Groundschool instructors; Wannabe professional pilots.

Finally:

Private pilots (only insofar as they relate to those staring out on their professional training).

Anything else goes into the other forums. Steve Irwin, if you have the urge to say anything then go to Jet Blast. Another more relevant example, if you want to discuss the closing of an airport, even if it affects the jobs of anyone in the previously mentioned categories then you use the Airlines, Airports & Routes forum. Likewise for all the budding airline tycoons who want to debate the ins and outs of which a/c type is better suited for a particular route or the scheduling of a particular city pair or whatever, then use the appropriate forum. It never ceases to amaze me that you somehow think that you know what is best yet you want to keep it insulated from the outside world of professional aviation. If you listened a bit more and stopped preaching so much perhaps you'd get a few more solutions to the "unique problems" that you think you have Dunnunda!

If some of you think that I'm advocating censorship then you need your heads examining. Have you ever tried getting an article or even just a letter published in a newspaper with your views on something? Do you call the editor accusing him or her of censorship because they didn't publish something? Well, I retain the right to decide what does and doesn't get published on here. It isn't your liveliehood or home that is on the line. Far too many posters are under the misguided impression that just because they are anonymous they can make unsubstantiated accusations about named individuals. Well, it is high time that those of you who are under that misguided impression get off this website because I will not protect anyone who makes libelous or defamatory statements without substantiated proof. Too many times individuals on here have tried to use this site for their own personal agendas and been oh-so-brave insulting others when we all know that they'd never use such language or allegations if they were face to face with their target.

I'll repoen this thread so that the discussion can go on but please spare us the semantics and martyrdom speeches. The issue is PPRuNe and how the content is going to be related to PROFESSIONAL PILOTS and the associated areas mentioned above.

[haughtney1]

I have met and flown with enough Australian and New Zealand pilots during my career to understand that those of you who have never had to venture outside of your area to fly professionally seem to think that what you do, the problems you face and the environment you fly in are somehow exclusive and different. Well, let me tell you, you need to get out more often and experience how the rest of the world do it.


That to me sums it up in a nice concise nutshell. As a NZer who has flown in NZ, OZ, and now the UK....it goes against my Kiwi instinct to agree with Danny on this, but my experience tells me otherwise.
Us antipodeans are no bloody different to anyone else, if you think we are, then perhaps its time you took another view at the world:ok:

Over the past couple of years I've been fortunate enough to have a bit to do with the PPrune team, and I've been benefited from their guidance and generosity. As a result of this, and perhaps because of this..each time I've read a post In D & G that is quite clearly ignorant, insular, or worse..I've tried to throw a little balance (and humour) into the mix.
So I say to all you doubting thomas's,critics,mud-slingers and other disgruntled D & G contributors...give this a chance...we all face the same issues..we all share an interest in aviation (of many kinds)...and after all is said and done, its a big world out there:ok:

Cheers

H

[Jet_A_Knight]

Respectfully, I think a far greater problem, and source of embarassment is, how nearly every thread becomes an intense bitch fight.:ugh:

[kookabat]

That's ok.
A professional pilot, to me, is an attitude. It has nothing to do with a) what licence you hold; b) what type of aircraft you fly; and c) how big your pay packet is.




So under that definition..... :8

[Feather #3]

After 38 years of heavy jet operating worldwide and simultaneously private flying in Oz, I can't agree with you enough Danny.

Good luck to all with the "sort out!" :D

G'day ;)

[bundybear]

It has become very apparent to me over the years of running this website that one of the main problems facing you Antipodeans when it comes to professional aviation is that you have become too insular. You have come to believe that you are somehow special or so different from everywhere else on earth that you are a special case

As a loyal Australian, having flown professionally in Oz and now the UK, I find this insulting. But having now flown off the rock, sadly, IMHO, it is often true.

BB

[c100driver]

I would have to agree with Danny, having flown a fair bit outside NZ and Oz I can see that we downunder are a bit full of our own self importance and skills at times.:ugh:

[haughtney1]

Sort and clean the forum out "DANNY" by all means, but keep the pisstake for your own "country" or what's left of it.

Eh? where has Danny taken the piss? I've re-read his post, and I can't find any piss take at all, hes just stating the facts as he (and a lot of us expats and locals alike) see's it.

[ratpoison]

Well haughtney, I deleted the post as I cant be bothered making comments to people from a certain part of the world who are losing their country and identity and yet still have a chip from the rugby outcome. :rolleyes:

[Sunfish]

I would like to suggest that there are one or two categories missing from Danny's carefully constructed pecking order that perhaps might be worth including since they have a rather large effect on the life of professional pilots one way or another, if only for completness.

I'm not sure they would merit their own area on Pprune since I have not known very many who would post, or even could post without being rather too easily identifiable.

The first of these are the professionals who design and manufacture your aircraft.

The second are the managers and schedulers within the airline that attempt to provide a suitably maintained and equipped aircraft for you to fly at the appropriate place and time.

The third are the accountants who have to figure out what its all going to cost.

The latter two groups seem to be invisible from the cockpit, but without their largely unsung work nothing happens.

As for differences between Australia and Europe and the various p***ing contests, there are a number of pluses and minuses on both sides.

Australia doesn't have very many snow covered runways, congestion and rotten European weather although I'm sure the QF International pilots get their fair share. Perhaps the job is easier because of it, I wouldn't know.

On the other hand, we don't have a large choice of local employers (ground and flight crew), and that has to color people's thinking and discourse here. At one stage the two old domestic airlines even had an unwritten agreement not to poach or even employ each others staff.

On an operational level, the fleets are relatively small here and the distances between major centres are rather large, which means the logistics and priorities are quite different from European operations, like having five state capitals and only four spare engines.

On a final note, the industry is relatively small here and closely connected, which means that, as evidenced by Pprune posts, that when some Cessna has an accident in the outback somewhere, some expat B747 driver will pipe up about spending time flying it years ago. The New Guinea thread is a case in point.


OK, I need to get out more, off to do some laps in the Cessna.

[WITCH]

At last sanity prevails. When I pointed out to one ppruner that it was supposed to be a forum for PROFESSIONAL PILOTS. MOR wrote:

" WITCH get a life. And you got the emphasis wrong in your explanation of the forum title. It is the Professional Pilots Rumour network. In fact, it stopped being for professional pilots some years ago..."

Good on ya Danny

[Trash Hauler]

Sadly there is too much whinging and vitriol on D&G and I consider this the primary cause of Danny's "rage". We have to clean up our act in this area for the benifit of all and for positive input into our industry here in Oz and Godzone.

[Jethro]

Danny,
Thank you for taking this overdue step and allowing us access to your site for free. Whatever rules you set - I'll abide by or leave.

Sunfish,
1722 posts in 2 years - you really have too much spare time and too much to say.

[Chris Higgins]

Danny,

I'll be in Luton tomorrow afternoon. Can I buy you a brew Mate?

Chris

[Charlie Rich]

I hate to say it, Danny, but I feel you have become just as much an offender with this topic, and your posts, as you accuse many of those other "horrible Australians" of being guilty (of).

There's no disputing at all, that PPRuNe is your personal domain - but it is the contributors and posters who have built it to be what it is.
And although you state that you pay for the hosting etc, i notice there are a heck of a lot of advertisements, all over PPRuNe.
Having advertised my aviation forum website here - the name of which is banned - I know how very expensive those banners are.

You are certainly to be commended for growing PPRuNe into what it has become for the pilot community, and I fully concur that there are always the spammers and opportunists who try to take advantage of a site such as your's, to try to promote their product, or point of view.

BUT, that doesn't - imo - give YOU the right to issue a tirade of venom against Australians in general, which is how your posts have come across, whether you meant it that way or not.

Yes, we are a diverse lot, and we don't often sugar-coat our words when we feel strongly about particular subjects.
But we Australians understand that, and so whilst some of it might appear "coarse" and "crude" to Englishmen and other Europeans, or non-native Strine speakers, we take it in our stride.

Isn't THAT precisely one of the reasons you set up separate forums for different countries?
Knowing that those forums would more likely be frequented by countrymen of those specific forae?

I'm not excusing the spammers, or the outright personally abusive posts that I have been subjected to on occasion here, however in the Oz culture there is often a "dig" intended to get a measured degree of response to insure continued debate.

Thanks for the space on your website that allowed me to air my Aussie point of view.

Charlie Rich aka Kaptin M.

[ratpoison]

Oh well said. Someone give that man a beer!!:D

[victor two]

I don't see what the issue is with the DG threads. We like to fight among ourselves, that's half the fun. I have cruised the other threads on pprune and seen the pilots from the UK related threads tear each other apart over ryanair and ezyjet topics, the Hong Kong blokes are at each other's necks like vampire bats, the miltary threads will happily devour 10 pages of trading abuse over things like the best way to cook on a weber barbeque which as far as I know has sweet F-A to do with being a professional miltary pilot. Has the owner of pprune contacted the miltary guys to stop talking about their weber barbies too or is that actually a bona fide professional miltary aviation subject which deserves all the coverage it can generate?

I can't see what the problem is with the aussies. Maybe we just know how to express ourselves but I will say that prune has become much more sterile and boring over the past 12 months or so. That in itself is a message I guess.

Whatever!

[tobzalp]

Don't like it, don't read it.

[Chocks Away]

:D:D :D
Long time overdue Danny.
Well said.
(+ thanks for unlocking this thread too, Woomera)
Happy Landings:ok:

[missy]

It has become very apparent to me over the years of running this website that one of the main problems facing you Antipodeans when it comes to professional aviation is that you have become too insular. You have come to believe that you are somehow special or so different from everywhere else on earth that you are a special case.

And I thought only Sydney (ATC) was a "special case"!!

Danny, no doubt you have considered that perhaps "pprune" has grown above and beyond what you originally intended.

For as long as I have been a member there has been a "Dunnunda (sic) and Godzone", the byline of which is An independent family of forums covering all aspects of the Australian/NZ aviation scene.

The independence was promoted, the diversity of topics was encouraged.

Back a year ago there were 3 D&G sections, now there is 2.
Whilst I appreciate the opportunity to post, I enjoy being able to read and perhaps learn. I see this as pprunes strength.

You have the right to operate the forum in any way you wish and no-one is trying to take from you the huge number of hours and considerable monies that you have spent in getting pprune to this but please consider that yours and pprunes success is built upon the huge number of members that have taken to time to participate.

[Chocks Away]

:D :D :D
Well said Missy... long overdue also.
Happy landings:ok:

[AndDee]

With such an arrogant attitude, why would I even bother coming back here again! I understand the need for posting in the correct forums, but I don't see the need for the attitude.

Yeh yeh I am new and if I don't like it leave, but still! :)

[1224]

awww flight attendants rate higher in importance than Instructors..... That just about says it all doesn’t it? How dare thee!!:} :{ :D :ok:

[ShockWave]

Aww! now come on guys, don't take it personally. No need to drop the bottom lip.
Every one needs a good bollicking every now and again. You may hate the Training Captain for it but he is only trying to make you a better pilot.
Same here.
I don't agree with everything Danny said or even the wy he said it but we could all do with a bit of proffesional direction and discretion when Pruning.
Far to many threads turn into bitch fights or pissing contests.

Danny: Your comments about this Forum or its users being insular is quite correct, but that is mainly because the entire Aviation industry in OZ is insular. Even it's national carrier QF is far to insular, but they are one of the oldest airlines if not the oldest and fly all over the world to the highest of standards. Australia is unique in it's evironment, culture, geography, demography, climate and career structures.
It is not like Europe at all, in fact it is bigger than Europe and as such it can be very difficult for locals to look beyond the beach and understand how the rest of the world likes to do things.
Pprune is such a great facillity for those all over the world and in particular our unworldly aviation brothers stuck in the bush in OZ. It has played a major part in career development for many thousands of pilots over the years and it is dissapointing to see some of its uses today, so I can understand your anger.
However I don't think it's fare to cast subjective views upon them or an industry within a country that you know so little about.

There is absolutely no point in kicking your dog just because he's a dog, you have to wait until he does something wrong then point to it and kick him. Hopefully he will learn eventually.

Feel free to stick your boot in anytime Danny particularly with specific directions and instructions on your forums use.

[Charlie Rich]

Lots of the best things in the world are Australian - Fosters (beer), Tim Tams, the "black box" flight recorder, Rip Curl.....etc.

You, Danny, might like to knock Australians (the Antipodeans) for living in what you consider an "insular" society, but in reality, that is the case with the inhabitants of most countries.
On the other hand, I would hazard a guess that there are probably more Australian pilots working in foreign countries now, than almost any other singular citizenship - the US included.
When Aussie pilots take a job "offshore", it generally entails a minimum of 9 - 10 hours of air travel time from their Australian home to their place of work, whereas you Europeans need travel only 30 minutes, or thereabouts, to discover you are in a "foreign country".
That makes it pretty easy to adapt, because although the language might be different, the cultures are quite similar.
Almost ANYWHERE an Ozmate ventures is guaranteed to be a totally new experience in language, culture, and skin-colouring for us.

WE are an adaptive "race".
I suggest you Poms are not nearly as receptive to change as we have proven ourselves to be - and you, with this topic starter, have once again proven the British NOT to be.

And, for the record, what possible reason was there for the removal of the reference to my site - anotherwebsite.org (replace the "!" with an "I") ?
Do you see THIS Aussie concept as some sort of "threat" to your own PPRuNe?
I don't see PPRuNe as a threat to my website, but rather as 2 sites that are able to co-exist.

Charlie Rich aka Kaptin M
Instigator and proud owner of another website

Edited by Woomera to remove links that may be deemed offensive:ok:

[haughtney1]

Ladies and gentleman............

Aren't we all just a bit sensitive? Half of you seem to agree with Danny (myself included) and the other half seem to have gotten your backs up because he's pointed out a few home truth's
Sure Pommey land has its share of problems...but thats not whats on discussion here. Wouldn't it be nice to think that we are all fair minded, and able to construct a reasoned argument, clearly however that doesnt seem to be the case with some of you, who it would appear, prefer to play the man rather than the ball.
Dannys comments are valid, his observations are accurate, and some of your responses to these, have just proved the point.

The highlighted comment below..is not an example of this however :)

WE are an adaptive "race".
I suggest you Poms are not nearly as receptive to change as we have proven ourselves to be - and you, with this topic starter, have once again proven the British NOT to be

Charlie/Kapt M

All I can say to that is...go and read Dannys comments again, he suggests of the Ozmates/Kiwi's hes flown with are the very example of adaptive, he is critical however of the dogmatic, and wholly insular attitude that exists in its own unique way in Oz and NZ aviation..not of the likes of you or I who have sought pastures further afield.

Now the message is something that plenty of us find unpalatable (myself included) but it does ring true on many levels.

[Woomera]

Charlie as an experienced airline pilot you would surely have learned about the risks inherent with the word YOU in CRM?

Do you think the wording of the above post might be changed to better reflect some level of respect for the Pprune Captain?

Perhaps you might reflect on how it feels when an FO suggests YOU have forgotten this or that...as opposed to the FO who, when something has been clearly missed, says "have WE completed xy or z yet"?

Perhaps that basic common courtesy might extend to not plugging your own website in EVERY POST you make on this one?

What ya think?

[Charlie Rich]

As one of Danny's opening, blanket statements, try this one

one of the main problems facing you Antipodeans when it comes to professional aviation is that you have become too insular. You have come to believe that you are somehow special or so different from everywhere else on earth that you are a special case. Well, perhaps it is time to wake up and smell the coffee
This is coming from a guy who has less than 10 years experience in international airline operations, and who feels he needs to read the "Riot Act" to many of us who have been working offshore - for foreign companies - for way in excess of that time he has accrued.

But then the confusion within his own thinking sets in, with -
Please tell me how can a country with an aviation idustry the size of Australia's warrant such an exclusive forum
Danny, as you made it painfully clear at the outset, PPRuNe is YOUR domain - YOU invented the D & G Forums.

I have met and flown with enough Australian and New Zealand pilots during my career to understand that those of you who have never had to venture outside of your area to fly professionally seem to think that what you do, the problems you face and the environment you fly in are somehow exclusive and different. Well, let me tell you, you need to get out more often and experience how the rest of the world do it.That "understanding" has been gained by talking with people who were expressing their opinions. The FACT is, Danny Fyne has NEVER worked in Australia for anymore than a brief charter at best.
Having LIVED, and worked full time, in 6 different countries, perhaps I might make the same quip, Danny.
But I won't, because it's a cheap shot, and has no depth.
I HAVE experienced "the rest of the world", and it isn't all that different the whole world over.

Anyway, I'm sick of the back-stabbing, and the cheap shots.
We only divide our ranks further.
Now is the time to consolidate, and act as responsible professionals, putting (relative) minor differences aside, to advance the profession as a whole, rather than trying to advance ourselves - or singular entities - individually.

Charlie Rich

You abviously missed out on the lesson plan marked conflict spiral too...so let me to introduce you to the CRM (Cretin Reactive Moderating) version of a bitch slap.

[Sunfish]

With respect, Danny is particularly sensitive (perhaps justifiably) about the possibility of litigation arising out of comments on Pprune. You may notice that threads about the actions of a certain airline were deleted at the time his rant was posted.

In a way I guess Pprune is a victim of its own success. It's not just a group of Professional Pilots talking in a shed somewhere, no matter how much Mr. Fyne would like it to be. If it was, I guess few of us unprofessionals would be interested.

[GreatCircle]

With respect, Danny is particularly sensitive (perhaps justifiably) about the possibility of litigation arising out of comments on Pprune. You may notice that threads about the actions of a certain airline were deleted at the time his rant was posted.

In a way I guess Pprune is a victim of its own success. It's not just a group of Professional Pilots talking in a shed somewhere, no matter how much Mr. Fyne would like it to be. If it was, I guess few of us unprofessionals would be interested.

Quite. Although banners, advertising, private forum fees, charges for user name personalization all help, DF has put a lot of blood, sweat, tears and cash into pprune - which was started off as a legitimate information resource for those earning their mortgage payments in the pointy end of heavy and not-so-heavy metal.

As the site owner, DF is culpable for allowing the comments to be published - as well as the person(s) making them. You cannot blame DF for protecting pprune - and I am sure the forceful comments made were forced and antagonized out of him because of the unfounded and damaging statements placed here and there.

Pprune has grown to a bethmehoth, a wonder, yet sometimes abused by those who ought to know better. I am no exception sometimes, but biting tongue, or in this case, crossing fingers before typing is a good idea....

[Arm out the window]

The thing is that most aviation discussion in the Aust / NZ region doesn't fit neatly into one area (Flying Instruction, GA, Airlines or whatever) - the dynamics and interactions are such that a topic of interest often crosses over these arbitrary boundaries and generates relevant opinion and comment from many sectors of the industry.

If healthy and well-rounded discussion of an issue is what you want, then trying to pigeon-hole it isn't the answer.

Yes, strong action from the moderators is necessary and welcomed by most when slagging matches start, but don't kill the essence of the site by getting too heavy-handed and prescriptive, please.

[tinyfly]

Dear Danny,

I may be putting myself out on a limb hear, as i am new to the forum.
However I am a training pilot, completeing an accelerated course, and conduct every training flight as if i am a professional pilot. It is not as if people suddnely become proffessional when the gain a CPL or join an airline, if you are serious about becoming a career pilot then that is the way you act from the very begining.

In my experience proffesionals of any industry wish to have an overview of the entire industry, from training to management and ownership. Pilot are no different, I have met very experienced pilots and not one of them has not wanted to hear my views on the industry; where i believe various parts of it are heading, and where there are issues in the industry that need to be addressed. The more people know about the industry the better as ultimately that leaves scope for improving conditions, especially in GA, which is where i will eventually be employed.

I believe that this forum does have a negative aspect to it, and that some memebers arent genuinely interested in it for a proffesional purpose, but to say that student pilots and private pilots do not have a place here is a huge mistake. This is after all a NETWORK and it should include all aspects pertaining to proffesional aviation. Including LAME's, hostees, management, training, and aircraft development aspects. To say that only pilots that have jobs should be on this forum, is very narrow minded and does not let this site live to its full potential.

Tiny Fly

[VR-HFX]

If you can keep your head when all about you are losing theirs, it's just possible you haven't grasped the situation.

Not sure where I read that but to put it into the context of this thread, I suspect the real concern Danny has is a legal one. The sight of Antipodeans tearing each other to pieces, per se, would likely cause nothing but bemusement. However when things turn slanderous, there can be legal ramifications.

May I suggest Danny or the Flying Lawyer lay out some guidelines. I am confident that professionals, when presented with the facts, can moderate themselves more effectively than can any delete button.

Praemonitus, pramunitas.

And by way of clarification, I believe the correct spelling for pom is POHM which is an acronym for 'Prisoner of His Majesty'

[victor two]

I see that there are two new threads in the miltary forums now. One is basically some blokes talking about funny things that have happened to them while on gatehouse duty, the other is about some bloke burning a piano after getting drunk at a dining in night. Awesome aviation topics I thought!

As far as I can see, neither of these are in any way related to "professional" (mustn't forget to use that word) military aviation and professional (again) aviation pilot related things.............. can you get someone from the pprune head office please write to the miltary blokes and give them an pointed, angry official warning that it's just not on and that it has to stop because it might all end up in court one day? Got knows what sort of lawsuit could be hurled at pprune if it got out that blokes were talking about aviation related topics such as the smelliest fart they ever dropped while drunk at a dining in night. Heaven forbid.

Thanks.

[precession]

lest we forget the various wing commanders talking about opening champagne with a sword, or the constant , ever returning, amusing and ultimately revealing epaulette thread discussed by 747 , 152 jocks and cabbies alike.


Professional indeed, amusingly so.

[AerocatS2A]

And by way of clarification, I believe the correct spelling for pom is POHM which is an acronym for 'Prisoner of His Majesty'

An urban myth (http://www.snopes.com/language/acronyms/pommy.htm). Today's tendancy to turn everything into an acronym was almost non-existant when "Pom" was coined (as far back as the 1500s.) It is more likely to be related to rhyming slang.

[The Voice]

Lord Fyne,

I remember when this board was nothing like it is now, I think it was a membership of a mere 2,500 ish at that stage ...

I remember when D&G was created and there was much rejoicing by all. I thought it was because of the size of the following drawn to this here place and not because we wanted to be considered special or become insular, that this happened.

What a shame you feel that the time has come to close it down or significantly reduce the size of this corner of the sandpit.

I'm still not a professional pilot. I have learnt to fly over the years, but realised that I didn't wish to earn my living do that. However, I have held positions with air traffic control providers and airlines over the years. I continue to hold professional positions within airlines.

I do have things to say from time to time, and I will continue to have may say from time to time. Aviators are a passionate bunch, and I can see that if you think the 8itchfights that are 'contained' herein are going to go away when intermingled with the mainstream boards, respectfully, I think you are mistaken.

In fact, I think it will deteriorate even further.

[404 Titan]

Danny

I know this is your train set and you are allowed to play with it the way you want but may I respectfully point out that this corner of Pprune was specifically set up so it could be:

An independent family of forums covering all aspects of the Australian/NZ aviation scene.

As I’m sure you know this is taken straight from the entry header to these forums. While I agree that some here need to clean up their act, forcing us to other more general areas of Pprune will result in you loosing a very large number of valuable Australian and New Zealand members.

It has long been accepted by us and stated by the moderators of this forum that “all aspects of the Australian/NZ aviation scene” included:

Airlines, Airports & Routes; Cabin Crew; Private Flying; Biz Jets & GA; Military Aircrew; Spectators and anything that has wings.

Why do you suddenly and dramatically want to change the rules we have flourished under? Is it because of commercial reasons? If it is I would point out that forcing us to other more general forums could have larger commercial consequence. Since your post I have been approached (and I am sure many others have been as well) by three individuals highlighting other aviation forums that would allow “Dunnunda & Godzone” to continue in its current form. I personally don’t know if these individuals are legitimate or not but it shows quite clearly there are some out there that are willing to steal the business you have painstakingly built up over many years. Please don’t let this happen because of a rash decision made on the spur of the moment.

[CaptainMidnight]

I concur with 404 Titan etc.

The two D&G forums are a one-stop shop for news specific to regional Oz & NZ issues. I assume they along with HK Africa etc. were created to provide just that – a convenient region-specific focus. Why would I want to wade through a bunch of other forums in search for issues relating this region?? The airspace reform thread is a good example. That issue affects all levels from heavy jets to student pilots, ATC, military etc. etc. Which forum would that be buried in?

A blast for slanderous comments and allegations is fine and overdue, but sorry – it makes no sense to me to bury this region’s issues within international forums. That isn’t parochial – simply practical.

[amos2]

:) Hey! C'mon guys...let's not get our knockers in a knit here!...

this is BRITISH EMPIRE AIRLINE PILOTS telling us how it is, in the REAL WORLD !!

Shape up or ship out!! :D :D :D

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

I assume there has been a trigger/s for the bollocking and removal of a large amount of the historical thread data in this place.
.
I ask this:- Why would any participants (legitimate/spotters/goons) spend their time putting a view in this place if it is to disappear from the record? …. or is that what this is really about??
.
With that in mind:-
.
- Is there an opportunity to moderate (newbie’s and the irresponsible fringe troublemakers) before a post is visible to all?
- Is it possible to give new people a 100 post learner’s permit before they earn normal posting status?
- Is it possible to bust people back to P’s for inappropriate posts?
.
I understand that may involve more surveillance work, perhaps there are others who might be able to contribute to the moderation function and spread the load?!
.
Thing is, many of us have spent years journalising the issues including the controversial airspace debates, all of which appears to have disappeared o/nite! …. makes all of that input from us (that presumably provides income for you) seem hardly worthwhile – particularly if it meant doing it all again! :ugh:
.
The issue (I assume) is moderating the destructive hull vibrations … We all understand (I hope) that to be credible whilst anonymous requires some decorum with factual and supportable comment! …. the basic rule is simple …. No Porkies!!
… individuals are entitled to a view (even satire) as long as it is founded in a ‘belief’ (oh no not that word again :} ) …. Deliberate misinformation is not!:=
.
Regarding the ‘insular aussies’ slur … without knowing what prompted you to select wide spray and blast D&G participants, I am still perplexed by the generality of your ‘loose off’.
Given the number of big issues discussed and resolved in this place, I would have thought that our participation (whether it suits your argument or not C H :hmm:) would be something you would approve of?! A public forum invites participation (we all come back to see what’s cookin’ :\ ), without that participation it is effectively nothing... sure there are problem children (I reflect that comment :} ) that need their ears pulled from time to time .. generally though Aussies and K.1.W.1’s will speak their minds both here and in person by name in a spirited and forthright manner … wouldn’t the world be a better place if people said what they actually thought rather than what they think others want them to say?? :ugh:
… without the ‘melting pot’ .. no one would bother! ….. and be buggered if I am ever gunna’ settle for being a facsimile of western conservatism!!
.
Too many times individuals on here have tried to use this site for their own personal agendas … ermm isn’t that what its for …. Agendas/issues?? and been oh-so-brave insulting others when we all know that they'd never use such language or allegations if they were face to face with their target. .. from what I have seen in this place, insults are a response to a perceived wrong doing! Is it therefore wrong to express a return view in kind??
.
Geographically arranged forums are logical and user friendly as others have pointed out. To consider removing D&G (even thought there are other geographically arranged forums within, and more specific company based forums) and dissolving content into the other forums smacks of a desire (from some quarters) to rid PPRuNe of the frank and effective nature of the OZ/NZ forums. :mad:
.
If there is heat in the kitchen …. it surely means the forum is working!!!
.
I am not particularly thrilled with the prospect of trolling through other forums including POM (or POHM as the case may be :rolleyes: ) ‘professional’ pilots subjects (containing mostly dry and boring waffle …. :E back at ya), whilst looking for relevant (to me) discussion.
In my case, unless the subject matter affects ATC, or OZ/NZ flying/pilot (as I fly privately) and related subjects, there is little point me visiting here other than for an occasional glancing giggle. Diluted forums (of any ilk) become attractive only in so far as providing a distraction from pulling ones fingernails out with pliers! :hmm:
…. as for the pecking order …I wrongly assumed we were all here to participate on an equal footing for your benefit and ours!
.
That said, given your generous (although not entirely altruistic) allowance of discussion of all manner of subjects (mostly aviation related) in the OZ/NZ forums, and the fine job the Woomera have done in difficult circumstances, I feel a large degree of loyalty and support for you and the team! .. I wait and hope that commonsense wins the day! :ok:
.
If it is your desire (for whatever reason) to rid PPRuNe of the unique and robust nature of D&G in favour of the stereo typical politically correct Euro/western mould ;) … I fear, as do others, that the essence of D&G would be lost. Many (including most of the non-participating) readers would ‘set course’ out of here!
Sure the discussions would invariably end up elsewhere in cyberspace, but in the end what does that ‘scrambling’ achieve for you or us?
.
….. I sure as hell know who would benefit! :mad:
.
Let’s leave the insular insinuations to one side and get to the nub …. Find a fix and grow one of the best resources our industry has! :ok:
.
Regards
.
Dog

[Peter Fanelli]

.. generally though Aussies and K.1.W.1’s will speak their minds both here and in person by name in a spirited and forthright manner … wouldn’t the world be a better place if people said what they actually thought rather than what they think others want them to say??



Isn't that the truth. That's one thing that I really miss living here in the USA. Nothing better to be sufficiently free that when someone screws up, you tell him/her that they screwed up and still be able to go have lunch together at the pub. I've met so many managers over here who are so verbally constipated simply because if you say the wrong thing you're likely to end up in court. That's a value that Australia MUST protect, but fromwhat I'm hearing it could be in danger of being lost. Great post there, keep it up.

[Danny]

Keep it coming. It all gets read. Robust discussion is one thing but too many people don't have enough brain cells to differentiate between "robust" and anything that can be used in a court of law should the target decide that "robust" has caused their reputation some harm. It isn't your backside on the line but mine and until the self anointed "I know the law but don't have a degree in it" know-it-alls get their limited mental capacity around that concept then I will still wield the big-stick which will no doubt infuriate some of you.

Then again, comments such as "...as you accuse many of those other "horrible Australians" of being guilty (of)." Please show me where in my posts I have said "horrible Australians"!!! A prime example of what I mean by making sure what you say is fact and not Muppetry which is why so many threads have had to disappear from this forum. It is not just 'Australians' (note; no mention of the word "horrible" :rolleyes: ) who have a habit of not understanding the rules but I will admit that statistically, Antipodeans outnumber the rest of the world in their ability to offend each other to the point of threatening litigation. Obviously, the richer you are the more likely you are to actually carry out a threat or at least try and get this website shut down in the knowledge that your millions can cause enough trouble without having to actually go the whole hog.

So, some of you obviously have very high horses and ego's at stratospheric altitudes too. Far too elevated to actually understand what is written and instead choose to add your own vitriol in order to try and put emphasis where none is needed. Rather than simply trying to understand that there are limits on what can and can't be written on here, robust or not, perhaps you should try and understand that if you don't have the intelligence to limit what you want to argue about then PPRuNe isn't going to be your protective coat of anonymity.

[tobzalp]

So your issue is with litigation NOT the specifics of what is posted in which forum then?

[Capn Bloggs]

Danny,

I have been watching this thread with interest after initially having been stunned by your first post. I participate in a few other internet forums and yes, they do not carry on like Prune does at times. On the other hand, the subjects are completely different. They don't concern my line of work, nor do the participants have common bosses, politicians, manipulators of politicians (XXX), challenges and other things that stir passions in pilots.

I see your issues with D&G as two-fold: firstly, that Dununder does not deserve to be a "catchbasket" for all things Ozzie professional aviation and two, the quality of the posts.

As has been said previously, and it's a sentiment I support, we have a fairly small (in the big scheme of things) aviation "scene" here and to split the threads up into the other forums on Prune just doesn't seem fair. After all, I have looked at a few, take the airports forum for example, and one thread there has more posts than all of the "current" D&G threads combined! :) I don't know how you decide when to "split" up a Forum, but please leave D&G as it was: it is great, convenient a one-stop shop for us and the best way to keep track of what is going on here in Oz. This would also be beneficial for the mods, because the pommie mods of the Airlines forum (who probably wouldn't know Skywest, let alone any litigous posts) are much less likely to understand the local nuances of a Ozzie airline thread. Most of the D&G mods know the local identities and can much more easily spot a rogue post/poster than a pom :} mod.

On the second point, D&G (and any other internet forum for that matter) is only as good as it's mods. It's like a Check and Training organisation: of course there are going to be rednecks and ratbags in any group; it's up to the mods to sort them out. I therefore sheet home a lot of the blame for the state of D&G to the moderators ("ban Bloggs" incoming?!). I personally believe they could come down a lot harder on the morons we have here.

Once again, thanks for a great website for airing and ideas and....reading rumours. The cleaning lady is now so old it makes me cringe talking to her. I'd much rather get it from here! :ok:

[rjtjrt]

Danny
It seems to me that if you have a problem with the quality of the posts you should address most of your voluble outbursts at the MODERATORS.

I have nothing against them personally and understand they do a great service to you and the community here (pprune in total) on a voluntary basis with little appreciation. I appreciate there efforts. Nevertheless that is surely where the direction of the site is maintained. Posters will soon get the hint if standards are set.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Hi Danny,

Your advertising page lists the following:

65% of PPRuNe readers are from Europe, while North America and Australia are tied for second place at around 13% (each) of the daily views. PPRuNe provides enough global readership to accommodate almost any regional advertiser's needs. Wouldn't this be why Dunnunda gets it's own forum? Wouldn't you be promoting the fact that Australia, a country with less than 7% of the US population gets just as many views? You'd have to assume you have almost a monopoly on Aviation related net traffic in this country. Sounds like a marketing opportunity to me. If anything shouldn't you consider what has made this area of your site so popular and try extend that to other areas rather than smacking our naughty bottoms. I would suspect Australia has the highest number of site views per capita than any other nation?

I guess I'm a little confused why you'd tell advertisers your site offers to meet regional advertiser's needs yet you appear to be chasing us out of our regional forum? I would doubt many people would specifically request advertising in the "Air routes" forum?? Of course I'm happy to be corrected. As you'd be aware - ever company advertising wishes to hit the target audience.

and57% of our readers are Professionals (either doctors, lawyers, pilots, CEO's, or high ranking executives). We also have a large Technical/Engineering readership and a large percentage of university students. (Demographics Chart #1) Wouldn't this explain the amount of non Professional Pilot related posting? Again you are telling advertisers they can target these people yet on the other hand are telling the posting community "This is a professional pilot site" which I imagine would make non-Professional pilots believe that they are not welcome.

Doesn't having a unique "catch all" area for postings by Australians lend itself to advertising opportunities?

I think your last post sums it up best. You are worried about libel. Certainly that has gone on a little.

Some of the most contentious topics generate the most traffic. These topics in Australia at the moment seem to be related to management type issues. Perhaps encouraging "robust" debate in these areas is the way to go in order to offer Australian advertsers a large number of "site views" by the target audience (Australians!). Albiet not at the expense of opening yourself up to litigation

[Dick N. Cider]

Hi Danny,

Firstly, thanks for creating PPRUNE. There are many pretenders to the throne in aviation forums but none pulls it together in quite the way PPRUNE does. Its strength is actually its strength. Nowhere else, that I've been able to find anyway, has the reach that this site does.

As far as D&G is concerned I must support the position that the ability to shop for local issues in one place is invaluable. Whilst I can see that airing our little issues in the bigger forums specific to an issue type (airports etc) gives us a broader reach than we get in D&G in terms of people who might have the answers, invariably that portion of the D&G community that wear the expat badge refer us to other relevant threads. Sure it's lazy but it has been working.

The legal matter is something only you can deal with. Let conscience be your guide but I'd hate to see what has been a fantastic ride over the past few years end with a whimper.

OK Back to creating mischief and mayhem

DNC

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

Clearly define the rules/limits!!
.
Regarding the legal stuff:-
.
If people choose to participate they must accept (as part of membership) responsibility for their musings.
As part of that mutual agreement is a requirement that if a member (or viewer) feels aggrieved by content, they must bring it to the attention of moderators (at the time) explaining the basis on which they feel it should be edited or removed! ….
.
Entry conditions must be spelt out as a two way street …. dummy spits after the fact would then be largely innocuous and nigh on impossible to use to damage the BB and Mods! …
.
.. a sore looser (no matter who they are or how much money they have) should not be able to carve up public record with impunity …. Therefore, if they want to try …. be confident that PPRuNe has acted responsibly (through member rules) and let em’ go their hardest! :ok:
.
... If threats against you and PPRuNe are seen to have effect, resulting in removal of historical data, it will only encourage more of the same behaviour!
... to that end, I ask that the previous history be reviewed and restored so that a clear message is sent to those who might try!
.
Re: the forum layout
.
May I humbly put the following for consideration:-
.
Perhaps the effectiveness of PPRuNe as a whole could be enhanced by compartmentalising into sub groups that do not differentiate between industry levels, rather divide forums by sector groups i.e.
.
- Global forums (anything that has global significance) … much the same as is now available
- Region specific forums (anything that does not have global significance)
.
The format within each forum group might be something like:-
.
Dunnunda & Godzone (OZ and NZ) … a thick skin and seat belts required!
- On the wire (news, rumours and views) …threads relocated after 14 days inactive
- Technical (hands-on operational) … plying the trades!
- Industrial (workforce issues/opportunities/information) … no naked flames!
- Commercial (business issues/information) … tie required!
- Political (undercurrents and policies) …the Pollie waffle!
- The Cock Pit (keyboards at ten paces) …if you don’t like heat? .. Stay Out!
- The Vault (hall of fame) …thread entry by member nomination and poll!
.
More sub forums, Less Main forums!
.
You might also consider the positioning of private/company forums within the regional groups. This might promote greater member participation as well as greater interest from groups and associations to have PPRuNe host their private forums. The benefit is of course being co-located with ready access to the open forums in their regions!
.
Also;
.
At the bottom of the forum pages (near the members on-line bit)
.
- In the Sin Bin (those of us doin’ time)
.
... and somewhere else on the site
.
- Banned (those shown the door permanently)
.
This would provide a visual reminder to members and visitors that the PPRuNe team will act if the need arises!
.
Perhaps the ten thingies might need to be morphed into the 12 commandments?!!?
.
… thoughts??

[resboy]

"D & G Reporting Points Airline and RPT issues in Australia and enZed."

Seems rather broad to me.

I can therefore understand why regular contributors to the wide range of (generally informative) topics in this forum may be forgiven for not realising that this forum was in fact specifically intended for professional pilots only. :confused:

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

resboy
.
quite right ..... so the question is
.
Do Danny and the body of Professional Pilots (for whom this site was originally provided) want the other parts of the Aviation industry to join, listen, learn and participate ... or just stick to Professional Pilots talking about Airline and RPT issues and the rest go elsewhere??
.
.. would have thought it a no brainer? :ooh: :)

[Charlie Rich]

Please show me where in my posts I have said "horrible Australians"!!! A prime example of what I mean by making sure what you say is fact and not Muppetry...

par?a?phrase
- noun
1.
a restatement of a text or passage giving the meaning in another form, as for clearness; rewording.


2.
the act or process of restating or rewording.


As written earlier, Danny, your opening posts were what lead me to PARAPHRASING that choice of descriptive words.

Generally, we Aussies are noted for our sense of 'fair play', and I took exception to the couple of 'bitch slaps' posted by YOUR moderators, at a time when I was prohibited from responding.

Posted by PPRuNe’s moderators beneath my contribution:
You abviously missed out on the lesson plan marked conflict spiral too...so let me to introduce you to the CRM (Cretin Reactive Moderating) version of a bitch slap.

Charlie Rich (http://www.pprune.org/forums/member.php?u=152731) vbmenu_register("postmenu_2844943", true);
Banned... Persona Non Grata

As for the litigation argument you put forward, you and I are both fully aware that something such as that is almost entirely unenforceable, for many reasons.
1) The conditions under which the forum is operated indicate that the owner(s) of the website are not responsible for the content.
All messages express the views of the author, and neither the owners of PPRuNe Forums, nor Jelsoft Enterprises Ltd. (developers of vBulletin) will be held responsible for the content of any message.
2) When registering on PPRuNe, there is nothing to indicate that a poster can NOT post potentially litigious comments

By agreeing to these rules, you warrant that you will not post any messages that are obscene, vulgar, sexually-oriented, hateful, threatening, or otherwise in violation of any laws.

3) Where would the proceedings take place? You reside in the U.K., your host is in the U.S. and the comments might come from one of any number of countries. Indeed it WOULD take someone with a spare million or two to even bother commencing proceedings.

Imo, the arguments you have put forward are bluff and bluster to pander to your own sentiments.
One of the "problems" I have had with PPRuNe for a few years now, is the INCONSISTENCY of the moderation, not only from one forum to another, but ESPECIALLY within the D & G arena.

Of course there has also been a maturing of the original audience - I kicked off here (as Kapitan M) back in 1997 - and since then, another generation has come up through the ranks. Hence there has been a transition during which there has also been a change in mindset.

BUT...that is no excuse for the INCONSISTENCY OF THE MODERATION.

There was a particular period in time (1989) following which there was heated debate here between both sides.
Full credit to the moderators of that era, a FAIR hearing from BOTH sides - warts and all - was permitted to run.
Today on PPRuNe, I find YOUR moderators are apparently able to influence discussion by editing, and/or deleting posts THEY find don't fall into line with THEIR own personal thinking.
Hence a poster finds that that which is acceptable on one day, is totally UNacceptable the next.

What most people are looking for, imo is a fair and equal voice for each party, devoid of over-excessive interference from the mods.

If you want to have a Danny Fyne Rules O.K. Forum, then perhaps it's time to set one up, and limit membership to like-minded persons.
I thought you had set PPRuNe up as a PUBLIC Forum - but perhaps I was mistaken.

[bushy]

The "airline and rpt" pilots only make up about half of Australia's civilian professional pilots.
We are getting back to the "mine's bigger than yours" argument.
"General Aviation" is considered to be all non scheduled civil aviation, services. Many, many professional pilots are engaged in it, and make their living from it, in all sorts of aircraft.

GA is not just private flying.
.
Australia has about 10,000 non airline, civil aircraft.

Commercial aviation is civil aviation that involves commercial transactions, and involves professional pilots. The airlines do not have a monopoly on that.
Many small aeroplanes flown by professional pilots, operate under an air operators certificate,with SOP'sand carry out commercial flying.

Private flying is a different thing altogether and should be defined as private flying, not just GA.

This, I believe is one way that we ARE different from Europe and the UK. I agree that there are too many mythical "unique Australian" supposed differences, but there ARE some real ones.

I agree with Danny, that there is a whole lot of rubbish on here, and much improvement is needed. Professional pilots are required to have communication skills, and a degree of civility and self control. Sometimes this is lacking on here; and it is not always the "non professional" who
offends.

Thank you Danny, for providing this very important
forum. It is more valuable than many people realise.

[Charlie Rich]

Another 'significant distinction' between D & G pilots, and European pilots, is that most of us 'did time' in G.A. in Oz, as opposed to going directly into RPT ops.
In this area, I know Danny to be the exception to the rule - having served his apprenticeship with 'Fraggle Rock' Airways.
Whether this makes one a better 'all-round' pilot is probably a point for future discussion.
But it is likely that this 'doing it from the ground up/serving your apprenticeship' is a factor in explaining WHY Australians and Kiwis are so positively protective of their positions, once gained.

In D & G professional aviation, NOTHING is (usually) lightly gained, and hence the adage, "Lightly gained is lightly valued" is highly respected by those who have put in the hard yards to ACHIEVE what they have.

[ftrplt]

Danny,

I have to agree with the sentiment of the last few posts; I strongly recommend the suggestions regarding forum (or is that fora??) layout suggested by Scurvy in post 69 above. It would be a dramatic improvement to your site.

[victor two]

I for one am curious as to how many actual legal actions or threats of legal action have been launched against pprune as a response to stuff that has been published in some random D&G thread anyway................

Anyone care to take a guess or reveal some true figures on that?

[Much Ado]

Yup I think SDD has a good idea.

Charlie I dissagree that the moding has been biassed or inconsistant...what has happened over the years is a tightening of the controls on just how much sledging is allowed...D&G used to be the wild west in this regard and that has got way out of control at times. It seems to me some of the younger generation feel less restraint on how stridently they express their feelings than those of us who enjoyed the 'good old days':ugh: As you pointed out it seems generational...in 'the good old days' the unsuccessful in our industry had nowhere to vent and that has been one downside to pprune.

In the good old days we were a lot more insular..we just didn't have the access to information that the internet has provided...that is a hugely double edged sword...vast information leads to difficulty in gleaning fact from fiction...and the vast amounts of fact and fiction leads to increased stress in general. I find myself watching very much less TV in recent times because constant bad news (i.e for some inexplicable reason it is deemed 'Good' TV) stresses me...actually it just gives me the irrates because I know it is mostly BS.

I think this may be one reason why posters get carried away from time to time...society is generally more stressed.

You make comparison with 89 debate in Pprune (when it was allowed:ok: ) and suggest it was even handed....I would suggest 1/. we were allowed to get away with more in those days, 2/. It wasn't quite as open slather as you remember and 3/. all 89 debate on pprune was 7-10 yrs after the event so most posters had some perspective and had calmed down somewhat....I shudder to think of the moderating task if 89 happened last week and the threads were running now...it would make the QF/J* threads seem like afternoon nap time in kindergarten.:uhoh:

All the mods are human and we all have full time jobs...if we are occassionally not on top of our game when moding that is just tough...if we differ in what one mod deems ok when another doesn't that is just life...as far as I am aware there hasn't been a automod invented yet...until one is you'll just have to cope with us occassionally spitting the dummy after the 87th post we have had to moderate because some twit can't argue a point without sounding like a 4 year old being dragged out of the lolly section at Woolworths.

Yes finding out who someone is in real life is difficult (VERY) if they really want to be annonymous but that fact does not make Danny, or individual moderators, immune....we are not annonymous and apparently a potential legitimate target:uhoh:

Pprune is too important to risk it being shut down by (an) allegedly dissaffected individual(s):ok: with deep pockets. The Law is often not about justice or right and wrong it is about money...those who have vast amounts often win when they really shouldn't have....remember OJ?

[Brian Abraham]

bushy - just to add to your list there are many pilots who earn a living sitting in the pointy end flying for private operators and so without a AOC.

[bushy]

That is quite right Brian. Professional pilots earn their living in all sorts of aircraft, from Piper cubs upwards. (WA fire spotters), doing all sorts of different tasks.
It is very wrong to consider that professional piolts, and commercial flying only occur in big aeroplanes.

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Is it just me or was Danny's post one of the few (if not the first) that actually united 99% of Dunnunda's posting crowd. (albiet against his implied "destroy the forum") :ok:

Where is that Men-At-Work song when you need it?? :E Yeah-yeah!

Oh.. and Woomera, or Much-Ado or who ever.. why not sticky it again.. I dare say this thread still "as relevent today.... as it was the day it was spoken"

[DutchRoll]

Legal threats regarding internet forums have been shown to be 99.99% utterly and completely vacuous - all bluff and bravado. True, they are levelled regularly, usually when someone is losing a particular argument or feels aggrieved that they've been caught out. But there is a significant onus and cost on accusing someone of 'libel', especially on the internet.

Just my two-bobs worth coming from my crass, lower-class, uneducated and rebellious-against-the-empire convict heritage (actually, we were pure English settler, but never let the truth ruin a good story).

[blueloo]

Danny, just for reference:

Antipodean -
Inflected Form(s): plural an·tip·o·des [/URL] /an-'ti-p&-"dEz/
Etymology: Middle English antipodes, plural, persons dwelling at opposite points on the globe, from Latin, from Greek, from plural of antipod-, antipous with feet opposite, from anti- + pod-, pous foot -- more at [URL="http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/foot"]FOOT (javascript:popWin('/cgi-bin/audio.pl?antipo03.wav=antipodes'))
the parts of the earth diametrically opposite.

So whilst your attempt was either good natured bard, (or somewhat patronising???) that Australians are Antipodeans, you might also view yourself as Antipodeans too.

[haughtney1]

Blueloo

Antipodean....commonly used word to describe you Ockers..and us NZers:ok:

[blueloo]

Haughtney :} yup aware of that, just letting you know, us ockers can also use it to describe you poms :E (by definition of course, most of use ockers wouldnt use it, we are to polite for that sort of thing......:} )



(Anyway, shouldnt that be "use" ockers ...ppppff get it right!) :}:}

[The Voice]

isn't the spelling usually 'youse' for this bit of the vernacular?

anyway, can we go back to posting like we did before now please.

Can the forums return to 'normal' and those threads that were hidden elsewhere be retreived and brought back home?

Please Danny.

[blueloo]

I dunno mate, maybe it should be "ewes". Baaahh baaahh :E

[Chris Higgins]

My prediction is that it will pretty much go back to the way it was in a couple of months from now.

[captaindejavu]

Enough of this inane prattle !!!!!!

Hey, Danny, Woomera, etc.....isn't it about time you closed this thread and cut out the 'warnings'?? If someone crosses the line professionally on this forum, simply ban them immediately. One day, one month, or forever, who cares!! The message will get through quickly enough.

Written 'warnings' are a waste of time and a waste of bandwidth.

Just ban them, for Pete's Sake !!!!!!! Actions speak louder than words !!

[Tidbinbilla]

The last page is just an example of what Danny wries about re thread drift.:rolleyes: