Qantas plans next strike at pilots

[Wirraway]

Thurs "Melbourne Age"

National carrier plans next air strike at pilots
Rod Myer
September 7, 2006

QANTAS will abandon all Qantas brand services to Townsville from Sydney and replace them with Jetstar, the latest in a long line of substitutions in which Qantas has dropped out of several holiday destinations in Queensland and elsewhere in favour of its discount subsidiary.

The economics are simple in Qantas' view: Jetstar saves it about 40 per cent in costs. So the more routes it can take over without jeopardising the lucrative Qantas inter-capital business-class traffic, the better.

But Jetstar has achieved the easy savings in the domestic market and Qantas is still faced with pruning $1 billion from expenses this year, only $750 million of which it claims to have identified.

So now it is focusing on a tougher nut — pilot salaries. Pilots are the traditional kings of the transport industry, with pay and conditions the envy of many. But in the light of such events as the collapse of much of the US airline sector, and the rise of discount flyers, pilots have come down to earth somewhat.

Australia was affected with the demise of Ansett and the appearance of Virgin Blue and Jetstar. But now Qantas is turning its guns on its own: the pilots who fly its Qantas-brand domestic and international services.

Already the company and the union, the Australian and International Pilots Association, are testing each other out with initial enterprise bargaining agreement jousting. Even the pilot salary figures the two put out reflect their positions, with the union quoting base rates and Qantas adding in up to $85,000 in overtime, allowances and superannuation.

Qantas is taking a hard line. When the domestic EBA opened earlier this year it offered pilots a one-off 3 per cent cash bonus that would not feed through to superannuation and allowances.

Qantas human resources chief Kevin Brown said Virgin Blue had pilot rates 28 per cent below Qantas domestically (a figure disputed by the AIPA) and he is focusing on that difference. "We're seeking some convergence between Qantas and Virgin," he said. "We offered a cash payment rather than a pay rise but the pilots rejected that. We remain with the door open."

AIPA spokesman Peter Somerville said the union had offered a comprehensive package that would apply to domestic and international pilots. It consisted of 10 per cent pay rises over three years, career flexibility for pilots to move between Jetstar and Qantas, a 15 per cent cut in pilot numbers and flexible rosters that would have saved Qantas 6 per cent a year.

Mr Brown admits that Qantas' domestic operation is a tight ship. "We've got some of the most efficient pilots in the world on short haul." Nonetheless, competition from Virgin and the fact that Jetstar pays pilots about 32 per cent less than Qantas mean the pressure is on.

International operations are hard to compare. Qantas pays its pilots more than British Airways but uses lower-paid second officers, which BA does does not have, in its crew mix. Emirates and Singapore have pay scales 20 to 25 per cent below Qantas international.

Mr Brown said he would like to see average flying hours per week rise from 16 to 18.

"Currently, they (international pilots) fly a few less hours than the average carrier and are paid more than the average carrier, and we need to compete with the average carrier," Mr Brown said.

=================================================

[Lodown]

Perhaps a modern day equivalent to the Christians and the lions. Who will take which role is yet to be determined.

Pprune should provide some interesting reading over the next year or so.

- ISP ... check
- Working computer ... check
- Comfortable chair ... check
- Functioning fridge ... check
- Cold beers ... check
- Snacks ... check
- Reading glasses ... checked and clean

Start anytime you're ready chaps.

The countdown to VB International Ops continues.

[Dropt McGutz]

I guess it would be too much to ask for the executive management to show a bit of leadership and lead by example? Nowhere do we see any mention of convergence of their packages with their counterparts. I think the CEO of Cathay is on about 25% of Dixon's package and isn't the CEO of American, a much bigger airline too, on around $600,000 (USD).

[oldhasbeen]

I would also suspect that Dixon earns a sight more than George W. does!!:E

[Aussie]

Yeah, exactly, why dont they have a look at management pay, savings to be made there!!!!


Aussie

[aircraft]

I would also suspect that Dixon earns a sight more than George W. does!!
I would say he is worth every cent of it.

I also suggest that Qantas would have been well and truly on the ropes by now if it weren't for the management!

[lowerlobe]

It is a lot easier to say that without any substantiation......Qantas was doing fine before Darth and is still doing fine despite him

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Hey P-A-F? You ever been to Perth? I think you have a love-child there...:E

[dodgybrothers]

his name might not be imaginative but his posts are

[noip]

Aren't selective statistics wonderful? This spin-doctoring is quite tiresome...

I would suggest a true and honest appraisal of remuneration etc in the above article would show a completely different picture... but then that is not what we are about here ...

N.

[neville_nobody]

I love how they compare QF salaries with just two carriers one of which has tax free status. They don't mention that Singapore also pay for the entire training of the national pilots which QF does not. They also don't mention that Dixon is continually bitching about how unfair Emirates are and how it sucks that they can make the rules they fly by etc etc yet when it comes to salaries it's a fair comparison.

And how do they suppose that the pilots fly more when they are already flying at the legal limit??? Or do they want to start changing that as well??

[Shitsu_Tonka]

The big question - why do we all just keep taking it? Every part of this industry is getting it's pay and conditions attacked and reduced - whilst the MP's cry poor about reducing their own super and now look like reversing it, and CEO's award themselves obscene rewards.

Why are we all taking it?

Oh thats right - we all voted for WorkChoices while cowering in fear from Terrorists and Interest Rates. (Both of which are up in numbers)

Anyone up for a national walkout? How about a national "Bring Australia Back" day - where we all take a sickie, go to the beach and have a barbie and few beers. CEO's, pollies and brown noses not invited.

[qcc2]

and make it soon :D :D :D

[DutchRoll]

I would say he is worth every cent of it.
I also suggest that Qantas would have been well and truly on the ropes by now if it weren't for the management!
1. You obviously don't own Qantas shares then.

2. That they've cut costs doesn't make them good managers. Cost cutting is only ever a temporary measure in the survival of a company, which then has to recover from the after-effects. I get the feeling however, it's the only thing current Qantas management actually knows how to do. That's not a good sign.

[Bumpfoh]

:mad:

This may be old hat but next time one of these people from management decide to address the staff or the press about pay and conditions the following should be asked of them.

When was the last time, if at all, you worked;

on the weekend

at night (and that means all night and multiple ones in a row not just one)

on your birthday or your spouses'/childrens' birthday with no chance of seeing them on that day or any day remotely close to that day

on Christmas day/night, New Years or Easter or any other public holiday for that matter (and ditto above)

Routinely decline social events with family or friends who don't work shift work or a rostered pattern ( the vast majority of employees and managers) because of your work commitments.

I'm sure there are others that don't spring to mind right now but when my manager/s can assure me he does all of the above year in, year out then I may give them some consideration to their constant calls of "you get paid too much in the way of base rate and penalty rates yada yada yada"

(Tid Edit): Language!
I appreciate most shift workers choose to work where they do but traditionally a penalty payment offset the above inconveniences/sacrifices.
To have these penalties and rates of pay come under constant attack will see many leave the sections of industries that rely on shift workers, particullay aviation, more often the ones who you can ill afford to loose:=

[priapism]

The point remains that the trade off for working unsociable hours is a higher salary, always has been and always should be.
I wouldn't imagine many people, particularly in the more menial shiftwork jobs , would be interested in doing them otherwise.
That said , I have a friend in another industry who was working varied shifts on the shop floor when he took a salaried management position which seemed like a great deal at the time. Little did he know that his workload would go from 42 hours a week with built in penalties and overtime for every minute over 38 hours, to an average of 60 hours with absolutely no additions above his salary. He left for work at 6 am and didn't get home until 7 at night . Weekends usually entailed several hours on his laptop tidying up unresolved duty. His office was windowless in the middle of a large building , he usually ate at his desk. During one Melbourne winter he wasn't seeing daylight from Monday to Friday. Inevitable health problems followed , including a gastric ulcer. He could not leave his work at work . Eventually he left the company and found work at a competitors -back on the floor working shifts and is happy again. He worked out that his hourly rate on the shop floor was actually better than with his salaried management job.

[ShockWave]

Another abuse of facts and half truths to spread more bullshi.t There are obviously no requirements to tell the truth when writing fictional newspaper stories in Australia.
Both SIA and EK pay housing ,schooling, medical etc on top of a bonus/ proffit sharing system. Yes the tax is different, but why should that make a difference when comparing how much over or under paid pilots are. What we get is what we get.
As a Captain with EK (all up), I earn over $200,000 AUD after tax. So that would mean prior to tax in OZ approx 290k, I think. Im pretty sure thats no where near 20 -35% less than an average QF Capt.
Any other Asian airline pays around $11-12000 USD per month basic salary after tax for expat pilots.
But then again if it's in the news paper they must be right, and I'm just miss informed:=

[lowerlobe]

The Media would never let the truth get in the way of a good story would they....???? and as far as kickbacks to journalists goes,well that would never happen either would it ?????

As Shockwave has said ,If it's in the newspapers ,it must be true.

[RedTBar]

DirectAnywhere,
Thats a fair comment but as you said if you factor in the cost of those add ons such as housing etc...then there might not be a significant difference to the employer in over all cost and certainly not the 25% to 30 % mentioned.

The problem is that the media can alter or change the perception of an article easily and a lot of people believe anything they see simply because it is in print or TV.

[Vorsicht]

Pilot Salaries are not where EK has the edge. Take a look at this article in the local Dubai Rag.

http://www.7days.ae/2006/09/10/caterers-call-dhs4-raise-offensive.html

Where 500dhs equals 180 Aussie dollars per month and
4dhs per month pay rise is equivalent to $1.44.

[Casper]

I'd personally be quite happy to take a 30% paycut if Geoff and Alan promised to pay my mortgage, kid's private education, private health insurance plus 15% super as per the EK package. Remember all that - apart from super - is currently paid post tax by me and I'd certainly come out ahead on that deal.
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That's the price you pay for living in Oz, fellas.

[neville_nobody]

Anyone actually been bothered to contact the Age or better still Media Watch in regard to such inaccuracies been constantly printed in the media. Maybe the pilots unions in this country should also get out there a bit more and put out some press releases with some factual information on them in regard to these issues. Personally fed up with reading highly inaccurate reports in newspapers and magazines when it comes to aviation related issues.

[Casper]

Neville's suggestion is a good one, DirectAnywhere. Put your funds in your elected representative organisation to good use for your purposes. Maybe, just maybe, the airlines do not control the media as others managed to do in "the past."

[SOPS]

....wait a minute..I am a little bit confused..did not all these lies in the media happen once before? Did not a cry for help go out from those who were being lied about? And was not the answer silence?
And so...it starts again. And this time, some of those who were being lied about before are being lied about again. As I said in a previous thread..when the time comes it will be interesting to see who jumps where.:)

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

SOPS, what you say is true but it was also a time where the number of avenues for any balance to emerge was greatly limited.

I often wonder how the course of the dispute would have gone in the age of the Internet. Guess we'll never know.

[Capt Basil Brush]

Shockwave,

With the decline of pilot's cond's in Aus the way it is, and lots of pilots considering moving offshore, would you mind giving us a break-down of your 200k after tax at EK? ie how much is made up of base pay, overtime, allowances etc?

That would be very helpful in coming to a decision as to whether or not to bail out of here, or to stay put.

Thanks very much.

BB

[ShockWave]

Guys, the reason I refuted the figures stated in the above mentioned news paper story, was that it was specifically being used as an excuse to attack the wages and conditions of the QF pilot group. Therfore the amounts we receive in our banks at the end of the month by our respective companies and the amount of work we do should be the figures to compare not what the company has to pay the government.
Of course EK has no direct Tax so they are much better off than QF.
So if QF want to be on an equal footing with EK they should attack the real difference, The Tax department, not the pilots.

It is very difficult to break down all salary details and allowances into a meaningfull comparison which is why I quoted how much I had been paid over a 12 month period. (lazy) This is not really the thread for it either.
I will try to provide more details for those that are interested via PM if asked.

I would not encourage anyone to leave their jobs from Qf for the money that EK pay. It may be similar or not depending on how you view it, but the company, life in the sand pit and the jobs are quite different. Good and bad from both sides. I am certainly glad I made the change when I did, but after 8 years I feel that returning to Oz would be nice. Or is it that after time you just forget how painful paying tax can be?

[ShockWave]

Found an easy way to cut and paste, some details have been changed slightly,(just in case some one in the office objects). Not included are educational expences paid direct to the school by Ek. Make of it what you will. I will answer any questions via PM.
Exchange rate-(conservative and rough) 3AED=1 $ AUD

Payments
Appointment Allowan 60,000.00 (TRI, training Capt. allowance)
Appointment Allowan 3,220.81
Appointment Allowan 400.00
Basic Salary 363,600.00
Concessional Travel 565.00
Education Support A 15,460.70
Exchange Rate Prote 26,940.00 (because $oz is much stronger now)
Productivity Pay Ca 40,700.60 (over time)
Profit Share 34,050.00 (thanks Boss! has been up to 10 weeks in past)
Telephone Allowance 540.00
Transport Allowance 9,900.00 (TRI, transport to sim allowance as above)
Transport Allowance 532.26
Utilities Allowance 116,465.00 (now 125,000)if not using company provided
housing. Not enough for rent though.

Total Gross 671,990.34

Deductions
Concessional Travel 15,290.00 (escape coupons)
EK Clinic Dental Ai 25.00
EK Clinic Miscellan 33.00
EK Clinic Over the 819.00 (drugs)
Education Support A 1,780.00 (exra above what EK pays)
Medical Company Ins 1,450.00
Medical Employee In 100.00
Medical Insurance P 2,859.96 (for family)
PF B Account Contri 18,200.25 (like super contribution without the hassel)
Perdiem Expenses De 1,700.14 ?
Telephone Charge Re 5,679.65
Visa Immigration Ch 5,062.00 (for family maid)

Total deductions 53,000.00

Net Pay Amount 619,000.37

[Capt Basil Brush]

Thanks for making the effort Shockwave, it gives a rough guide of what to expect once you have Command, Training etc.

I guess you just have to weigh it all up, and remember you will have to start from the bottom all over again. :{

[Casper]

Or is it that after time you just forget how painful paying tax can be?
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Very true, ShockWave. After not paying Aus tax for 9 years, it hurts!

[N2O]

Employee Insurance Benefits
Insurance benefits for the employee include Loss of Licence Insurance (36 x basic monthly salary) and both Life Assurance and Accident Insurance (48x basic monthly salary).
source
http://www.emiratesgroupcareers.com/ExploreOurCareers/FlightDeckCrew/packages.asp

[Sonny Hammond]

Assuming you have access to a traditionally paying command at Qantas, shockwave is probably right about not leaving QF.

However unless you already have a command at QF or are very close to, chances are that you probably won't be getting a command on traditional QF captains pay and conditions.

So 30 years in the QF 'group' = 10-15 years elsewhere (in the sandpit).

Thats what I think.

[control snatch]

Anyone actually been bothered to contact the Age or better still Media Watch in regard to such inaccuracies been constantly printed in the media. Maybe the pilots unions in this country should also get out there a bit more and put out some press releases with some factual information on them in regard to these issues. Personally fed up with reading highly inaccurate reports in newspapers and magazines when it comes to aviation related issues.


Hear Hear!!!

You airline drivers need to realise that all your bitching and whinging is heard by no one on this forum. You need to push to have the facts stated in a forum that the public will actually read.

It seems 89 has scared you all into submission, and I am guessing you are just going to cop the salary cuts, and the only thing the public will know about it is if they accidentally stumble on this website!

Start sticking up for yourselves

[max autobrakes]

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That's the price you pay for living in Oz, fellas.

Quite correct Casper. It's also the cost of doing business in Australia.
That pesky level playing field again.