Where to buy a few turbo-props?

[VH-Cheer Up]

Apologies if this is not the right venue to post this question... but...

A mate in the States has asked me to try to find some turbo-prop aircraft for a little off-shore island-hopping startup he has in mind.

He's looking for some good quality examples with possible sizes ranging from from Twotters to ATR72.

He's serious and cashed-up.

Where to begin? PM me if you'd rather.

VH-CU

[Rich-Fine-Green]

VH-CU:

1. Origin Pacific based at Nelson, South Island of New Zealand has just gone into administration. Chance to buy some Jetstream types.
2. Air Nelson (NZ link) is replacing SAAB 340s with Q300s.

Google both for more info.

[troppo]

how about some Harbin Y12's? theres some minters around here...can't be beaten on price and performance and they will piss all over a twin otter :ok:

[VH-Cheer Up]

how about some Harbin Y12's? theres some minters around here...can't be beaten on price and performance and they will piss all over a twin otter :ok:

Troppo, pls check PMs

[gaunty]

Hmmm there is a logic bomb in the argument for buying used turboprops from here or anyone who has gone broke or trading them for something else and expecting them to be succesful in whatever it is you want to do with them.

Do your homework and work up a a full and detailed business plan to identify the correct types and get the real facts on its operating economics from Conklin and de Dekker, yes you have to spend your money.

Then you go find the aircraft that best fits from someone who actually knows ALL about the market for that particular type.

ANY other way you might as well buy Lotto tickets or spray his money around at the Casino.

Just because they might be cheap is a real good reason not to buy one, unless it is supported by the business plan.

The used market is absolutely ruthless with prices on types that don't cut the economic mustard.
All you do is solve somebody elses problem and create an even bigger one for yourself.

[international hog driver]

VH-CU

Check your PM's

Gaunty has it right with regard "Quality", In a previous life I was in a company that had 9 Twin Otters, 5 B1900D, Fokkers...... and a whole lot of other stuff. Quality was king.

The aircraft that were cheep were hangar queens those that that commanded a higher purchase price were the work horses and made the money.

As to the Y-12, forget it unless you have a direct link to the factory and no it is not as good as the Twin Otter.

If your planning Island hopping then there are some types that are more suited to others. As does supportability which has some issues in various parts of the world.

[Torres]

troppo, are you talking the Martin Tyler Harbin Y12's?? As they have a lower max TO weight, heavier empty weight, lesser payload and slower cruise, in what way do they "p!ss all over a twin otter"?? :confused:

[Skystar320]

Hello,

Give us a yell via PM with your business plan / fiancials / etc and what you are doing with the aircraft and I will see what we are able to provide you.

Anyone out there got cost reports by Colin deecker?

[Sharpie]

Torres me old China!

I'll have to agree with you.

I had the opportunity to fly in a demo along with Biscuit Ears (yes, we were talking) when Martin passed through POM on a delivery to Fiji.

Not a patch on the Pie-van and I thought less than a Twotter. Did Martin ever make money with the things?:)

[Torres]

Oi Sharpie!! :ok: Not even a patch on a pie van makes a Harbin Y12 significantly a lesser piece of kit than a Twotter! Martin gave me a ride in one some years ago in Fiji - viz-a-viz the Twotter, I seem to recall the harbin Y12 was:

Same PT6A-27's as the DHC6-300
Similar empty weight to a Series 300 (around 3,600 kg).
Similar TO weight to a Series 200 (around 5,251 kg).
Slower cruise speeds.


Rather like China's response to the Nomad! :} :}

The mind boggles - Sharpie, Biscuit Ears and Martin D C Tyler all in a Y12!! :}

Martin once told me he made money out of the Y12 ..... but I'm not sure the operator ever did..... :} :} :} :}

[Capt EFIS]

With REX about to go to an all SAAB 340 fleet in October there might be a few Metro 23 aircraft available for sale!!

[VH-Cheer Up]

Gaunty - great advice. Anyone would think you had an MBA or something... :)

Approaching the problem from an analytical angle now. Original post was just looking to get a feel for what's out there, in what condition, and at what buy price (and op cost).

Although the economics, surprisingly, are not the be-all and end-all of the operation. The key imperative is to get well-heeled punters into a place they can't otherwise get into. Or out of. The price they might pay for that privilege is not the whole story.

The main sector length is an issue, it's just a few minutes. Maybe a fixed-wing isn't the best option.

But thanks everyone for the ideas. Especially the Metros!!!

Cheers

VHCU

[Brasilian Bird]

The key imperative is to get well-heeled punters

Well forget the Metro then!!! :} Don't think the well-to-do island-hopping type would appreciate them very much... I really did think you forgot the 'sarcastic' smiley at the last bit.. :E

Seriously though, if you're talking fairly big groups of people here, a Brasilia is pretty good from a size/comfort compromise... big enough to be able to do 'proper' service with, but not toooo big.... plus, they can get into sealed and unsealed strips, and the look pretty good to the average punter as well than say, a Metro or Jetsream.

You just have the problem of having to find a hostie (but your mate may not have a problem with this idea :E) Also, given the way the FIFO market is, you might find most operators are reluctant to let them go... unless your mate gets one from the States like everyone else...

And, I'm not biased or anything!!! :}

I wouldn't know about "smaller" stuff, too long since I bothered with that...!

BB

[troppo]

Tin, Torres and Sharpie...I was hoping to get some bites on the recent twin otter thread, just dissappointed I didn't manage to hook Chuck at the same time...the maori fishing calender told me that it would be a good day for fishing :}
I was winding ewes up :E

[tinpis]

Did Martin have trade stores in Fiji?

[Sunfish]

Cheer - Up, I think you would need to look at what aircraft you would want before you look at availability. Compute the operational details first. That would mean runway lengths, climb and descent profiles, maximum altitude and so on.

Then you could do a comparison looking at cruising speeds, loadings, rate of climb, fuel etc. that would give you a profile for the sectors.

From there you should be able to go to direct operating costs and then indirect operating costs. I would also expect that manufacturers would do it for you if you were looking for new aircraft.

You would also need to check that the aircraft meets the regs (noise, etc.) for the operating areas.

Good luck.:ok:

[mattyj]

Does your mate need any pilots with those aircraft?:confused: :confused:

[pakeha-boy]

mattyj....why? do you know some:} :}

[VH-Cheer Up]

Does your mate need any pilots with those aircraft?:confused: :confused:

Na, they'll probably all be remote controlled, or else operated by an able-bodied SLF (read this card, and follow the instructions when directed by a member of staff) :p

Need pilots? Of course he will. He's actually a fairly experienced pilot himself, but retired from flying some years ago to concentrate on a business career. I don't think Woomera would be happy if one was to start recruiting pilots through a thread like this, and in any case, the operation isn't scheduled to start up until January 2008. But hey, thanks for asking.

VHCU

[Horatio Leafblower]

Na, they'll probably all be remote controlled, or else operated by an able-bodied SLF (read this card, and follow the instructions when directed by a member of staff

..His name isn't Geoff Dixon or Alan Joyce is it?!? :uhoh:

[VH-Cheer Up]

..His name isn't Geoff Dixon or Alan Joyce is it?!? :uhoh:

Err, No. I was kidding about the remote control thing.

Really.

He will need pilots. And he probably won't charge them for endorsements, either.

VHCU

[Chimbu chuckles]

Troppo...I circled your bate but decided it was not attactive enough to warrant 'taking'.:E

Better luck next time:ok:

[VH-Cheer Up]

Back on-thread if I may...

The core mission for this start-up outfit is a very short (5 min flight) hop between islands shuttling between Island A with an international airport and Island B with an FBO served-airport, to get punters in and out of a fancy new resort. It's hot, humid, and sea conditions are unfavourable for a marine ferry (or floatplanes!) And it's in the middle of nowhere so maintainability and reliability is important.

The theory is that a small fleet of Twin Otters would work well. The buyer (my mate) reckons anything pressurised or retractable would be too complicated and add significantly to cycle costs.

Looking for two or more Twin Otters - happy to refurb interiors, engines, avionics. Operations must start Jan 2008 so need to move quite quickly. Any pointers on where such aircraft might be found?

Crew opportunities will undoubtedly follow -for anyone who fancies a life on an US dollar-based island paradise flying heaps of short hops with thousands of tourists coming through every week.

But first - the aircraft...

Cheers

VHCU

[Chimbu chuckles]

If you need 20 seats a Twin Otter would be ideal....if 10 seats a C208 with a cargo pod would be great too.

Good Twin Otters are thin or the ground...but a refurb candidate sits on the ground as we speak in Toowoomba...it's details are in Trader Plane (Ozzie one). I have NO IDEA what it's innards/component times etc are like but at the right price anything is possible...corrosion aside.

Given that good 300 series Otters are worth their weight in gold perhaps this one has terminal problems...as I said I have no idea.

For the type of work you are talking about a small fleet of -200 would be ideal...you don't really need the extra umph of a 300 series for 5 minutes sectors at msl.

[Torres]

I've been sceptical about this thread since the beginning - but this "takes the cake"......

"...is a very short (5 min flight) hop between islands..."

Turbine engines on 5 minute sectors........... :confused: :confused: Dream on!!!

You and your "advisors" in this thread have a lot to learn before you waste the brass of a "mate in the States"!!

I suggest you start by studying PT6A-27 and -114 rotating component cycle limits and replacement component prices. Fifteen years ago a -27 engine start cost US$45 in cycle usage - and you want to fire up two of them for a five minute sector????? And forget Series 200 Twin Otters on 5 minute cycles - I doubt you'd get 500 hours out of a -20's hot section, on five minute cycles.

Wind up!!! And if it's not a wind up, get Islanders and DC3's!

Turbines indeed! :mad: :mad:

[Chimbu chuckles]

Torres I seem to remember doing a lot of short sector work...2-10 minutes sectors for Talair in Twin Otters:confused:

[Torres]

You didn't do "a lot of short sector work" - you occasionally operated very short sectors in amongst a heap of longer haul sectors.

The last engine cost and hours analysis I did in Talair in the early 1980's had the -20 and -27 engines averaging around 45 to 50 minutes per cycle, and the -34 engines averaging just on the hour per cycle.

Engines were changed (left to right and vv) and aircraft were moved between bases to maximise the average cycle time. I don't remember all the component cycle limits and component costs, but I think the CT disc was limited at 25,000 cycles and cost around US$50,000 each.

At two engines, 5 minutes per cycle, the cost in CT Disk usage alone is US$48 per airframe hour - and that doesn't include all the other rotating, cycle limited and heat sensitive components.

5 minute sectors in a Twin Otter and starts will cost around US$400 per airframe hour - before you even release the brakes!!!

And PT6A-20 hot sections - fragile at the best of times - would never stand up to more than 400 to 500 hours of that type of abuse.

And how long do you think lead acid or nicad batteries are going to stand up to those cycles?

The thread is a wind up and if it isn't, he needs piston engine aircraft. Or buy a ferry!

[Chimbu chuckles]

Actually you're right...Wau was about the only base where the Otter was doing predominately short sectors...all the rest would do a run in the bush first thing and then RPTs like GKA-HGN, all ports GNY out of Lae, Gulf Runs and GNY-Missima out of Moresby etc.

I stands corrected:ok: