Is Ryanair that bad??

[Longtimer]

Much comment has been made on this forum re the short comings of Ryanair.

It seems however that the paying public continues to like (?) or at least support them.

Record Ryanair passenger figures


Ryanair carried a record four million passengers in August, the airline said yesterday. A 23 per cent rise in its traffic from 3.3 million in the same month last year meant that it was the first airline to carry more than four million international passengers in a single month.

The record numbers were achieved despite a security alert that sparked chaos at British airports. Michael O’Leary, chief executive of Ryanair, claimed that bookings fell by about 10 per cent in the week of the security scare.

[bjkeates]

I don't like what is perceived to be a very authoritative and assertive management style and a lot of their marketing tactics. A good example of this is their claim that they are always "No.1 for Customer Service", and then basing this on "Flights on Time" and "Lost Bags" - as if these are the only two things that are important when considering customer service. Their actual face to face and telephone customer service is, in my experience, pretty hopeless.

Despite all this and also the lack of professionalism demonstrated by Ryanair cabin crew I have witnessed on various occasions (laughing during safety briefings, shouting at passengers, etc) I will continue to fly with them because even with all the extra charges they tack on to their basic fares, they still often end up much cheaper than any of their competitors (even Easyjet); their "out of the way" airports are often actually very convenient for where I need to go; and importantly, nobody can deny they have an excellent safety record.

[10secondsurvey]

Do a quick google for Ryanair and court cases, and you make get a more truthful perspective.
Many people have varying opinions, but it is a mistake to assume that Ryanair are always much cheaper. They are often more expensive than say, EZY or BA.

Do a quick search on pprune, and many threads will be thrown up, possibly giving you a feel for the way the airline works.

In particular, with reference to pprune, I would see this thread;

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2819234&postcount=35

In terms of how they do business and treat their staff, see this link and read through all the posts;

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=234377


For other info, there are several links on this post to give you a 'feel' for Ryanair

http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2776854&postcount=88

As a very frequent flyer, I will on occasion use budget airlines, as some like AirBerlin (I have heard) and flybe (I know) are quite good. In the USA airlines like JetBlue are very good, and southwest themselves take exception to Ryanair comparing themselves with them (even though they don't compete). I would never use Ryanair.

[SXB]

No, they aren't that bad, they generally get you to your destination on time and there is no doubting that they are cheap. Though often there is not a lot of price difference between FR and some legacy carriers.

That said it's a fact that their customer service backup is not of the same quality of some other more established airlines. Also, I do have a problem giving money to any organisation which treats their staff as poorly as FR.

[daz211]

If ryanair were so bad to their staff why arnt they leaving
in there droves and getting jobs with other airlines

It cant be that bad as if it were they would be canx flights
left right and centre just like another low cost airline
not saying who but are orange

RYR are the best thing to have happend to aviation EVER they
have given tom dick and harry and their friend the true joy
of european travel for a very low price

[PAXboy]

Longtimer I would encourage you to read the other threads about FR. There will be no overall agreement about them - and no reason why there should be. However, this thread in it's four entires has already covered most everything that gets said about FR and it gets repeated in every thread. Hopefully this thread will get merged with the others.

To be honest, the only way in which you could hope to generate more replies that then repeat what has already been said a dozen times, would be to ask, "Which is better Boeing or Airbus?" !!! :rolleyes:

[daz211]

Boeing By Miles

[SXB]

Airbus by kilometres

[NudgingSteel]

Vickers, by several furlongs, you cheeky young upstarts.

[SXB]

NS
Who are Vickers ? :eek: Don't they build ships or something :E

[Final 3 Greens]

Are Ryanair that bad?

Yes ....... or no

Depending what your perspective is.

PS: Bring back the Dassault Mercure - it was years ahead of its time!

[slim_slag]

Longtimer,

You don't get a very good flavour of the airline on here, best way to find out is try them and see for yourself. Plenty of sub £5 base fares out there. The most expensive, riskiest, and frustrating part of your journey will probably be the trip to the airport. A day trip to Dublin is pretty easy to do from many parts of the UK, so just try it. If you don't like them then spend your money somewhere else.

[flybywire]

If ryanair were so bad to their staff why arnt they leaving
in there droves and getting jobs with other airlines


Daz211 I do not know where you live but I this is exactly what is happening! FR have one of the highest turnover of employees!!

So many people, especially cabin crew, cannot wait to get out of FR. Many of them succeed and get into other airlines (EZY, BA, VS etc etc). I have met lots of ex-FR cabin crew who have gone where the grass is greener, and where they are treated as human beings, where they have feasible rosters and are not obliged to scream "scratch cards" every time they walk down the aisle.

[flybywire]

PS: Bring back the Dassault Mercure - it was years ahead of its time!

It was!! I saw one during a Paris air-show and it was amazing, in my opinion much better than the airbus!! It looked very much like the A320 but with 737-200 engines :E
(sorry for the diversion.....)

[daz211]

So if cc are leaving in there droves why is there no problem
with flight canx you would think going by "tangos" standards
that they would have to canx about 3 flights a day at each base
but no and yet they announce new routes almost on a weekly
basis your statement does not make sence

[flybywire]

So if cc are leaving in there droves why is there no problem
with flight canx you would think going by "tangos" standards
that they would have to canx about 3 flights a day at each base
but no and yet they announce new routes almost on a weekly
basis your statement does not make sence

I have said there's a huge turnover of staff. I didn't say they do not have enough staff. My statement makes perfect sense, even considering their opening new routes every week.

Most of the latest aquisitions are people from eastern europe, they are on a different contract than the old original FR contract and are paid peanuts for working maximum hours. Most of the people who apply for FR cabin crew see it as a stepping stone and leave after a year (if they resist that much).
Now I know that it depends on bases, however STN for what they have told me (friends and colleagues ex-FR emplyees) is the worst.

Their recruiting is ongoing and in case you didn't know that, cabin crew have to pay for their own training. Expenses can be as much as 3,000 Euros.

The workforce's conditions might have nothing to do with whether passengers like FR or not, however as a cabin crew myself I am appalled by the t&c that FR gives to their employees and I am not surprised that they have such a huge turnover of staff.

Nothing more, nothing else.

FBW

[SXB]

Flybywire

Do other airlines, like BA or Easyjet for example, make cabin crew pay for their own training ?

[daz211]

charging cc for training sounds a good thing to me
maybe thats where easyjet are going wrong and
for the wannabee cc im sure they are told they
have to pay before they do the training or are you telling me
that they train, then get the job, then get told they
have to pay.

It stands to reason that STN has more problems as its there
main base with a masive amount of traffic

I having worked at stansted for a long time and know alot
of RYR cc who are happy and have been for a long time
its like all jobs in all sectors people like to move on
ask anyone in the street, do you like your job and would
you leave for better pay I guess over 70% dont like their
jobs and would leave for better pay

but you cant be saying that RYR should pay like VS or BA.

can anyone give a good reason why RYR should not charge for training
after all they dont go and drag you in off the street you have to make
the first move and apply

[SXB]

can anyone give a good reason why RYR should not charge for training
after all they dont go and drag you in off the street you have to make
the first move and apply

Daz, one of the most important values of any organisation is the treatment and worth of their staff, the view of many such organisations is that investment in it's employees is an investment in the company, in fact most professional companies pride themselves on their ability to provide comprehensive training to improve and widen the prospects of employees, this is good business sense. In addition, once you have established yourself as a high quality employer you attract better quality candidates, therefore allowing you to increase the quality of your product further.

I don't know if you manage people, I do and I can tell you it's very difficult. I also manage a large operating budget and I can tell you managing people is a lot harder. My organisation doesn't have a large turnover of staff because we have an established policy of 'taking care' of our employees, If one of my staff has a problem then so do I and so does my boss because that affects our end product. Management is all about recruiting the right people, getting them to do what you want effectively and then keeping them, it isn't about saving a couple of thousand euros on day one because good employees are long term.

With regard to this particular policy of charging for training what about RYR paying the costs of those who are successful and then putting something in their contracts saying if they leave within XX number of months it has to be repaid ? this is a little more common in todays world and infinitely more reasonable.

[daz211]

I do understand what you are saying but cc dont want to stay with
loco's its a fact, I know RYR have alot of things in the contract
that people dont like, its a well know fact that cc use loco's as stepping stones so why not charge them for the hop on the ladder.
once againg they are not forced to join!
RYR is a business after all and is out to make money
and they seem to be good at it so who are we to say
they are going about it the wrong way.
In a ideal world we would all like a job that makes us happy
but in real life to get to somewhere we are happy we might just
have to take some sh:mad: t along the way

[Final 3 Greens]

Dazz

the Truk laws were written due to protect people from the attitude that you postulate, as were the EU minimum wage laws.

I find your position on this matter to be unconscionable (as well as reprehensible) and can only hope that you are not in a position where you are responsible for managing employees.

[chrisstiles]

Ryanair is fine - if you don't mind travelling on a bus with constant attempts to amuse and entertain - scratchcards, raffle draws etc. Once they allow mobile phones on board it'll just get worse.

I travelled for via Ryanair recently for the first time - the alternative was a 5 hour stop over and change to a regional airport.

I'd only travel with them again if the alternative required some impossible change, or they were the only people flying to my destination. If the alternative involves a wait, then I'll take a book, or several.

[SXB]

daz
But if RYR take such a view it's extremely short sighted, at the moment RYR are at the bottom of the pile as far as CC and Customer Staff are concerned and this must be reflected in the quality of the product they provide.

As a major player RYR are less than 10 years old and only just over 20 years in existence, eventually they are going to run into problems either from another new or 'improved' loco (if RYR can do it so can others) or from a safety issue. RYR operate so many aircraft nowadays that the law of averages dictates that eventually a problem will occur. If, God forbid, they do have an accident the spotlight will shine very brightly because of the perceived shortcuts they take in some areas.

[daz211]

Are you saying that RYR are paying cc less than the min wage ?
the laws set up by the EU the same people who are trying
to get the uk to convert from miles to kilometers and eat bananas
that have the right amount of bend in them and change the way
we weigh things.
I do manage people all be it a team of 10, of which 1 has moved on
in the last 3 years and they get payed above min wage and are very
happy who get evenings out and thats payed for by the boss:ok:
infact this years xmas party is 2 limo's to the west end dinner and a show

[Final 3 Greens]

Are you saying that RYR are paying cc less than the min wage ?

No, I said that the Truk laws and minimum wage regulations were put in place to protect workers from the type of rubbish that you spouted in your last post. AFAIK Ryanair comply with these laws to the letter.

the laws set up by the EU the same people who are trying
to get the uk to convert from miles to kilometers and eat bananas
that have the right amount of bend in them and change the way
we weigh things.

You have been reading the Sun too much, by the way the 1985 Weights and Measures Act already requires traders to show metric as well as imperial units

Also, measuring distance in Km is not the end of life as we know it :} The UK used fahrenheit until relatively recently and money used to be in £ S D and we are still all here. Many Europeans (including the irish) also gave up their currencies for the € and they survived the experience too.

I do manage people all be it a team of 10, of which 1 has moved on
in the last 3 years and they get payed above min wage and are very
happy who get evenings out and thats payed for by the boss
infact this years xmas party is 2 limo's to the west end dinner and a show

I wonder how many employees Ryanai will take in lino to a West End show?

[SXB]

Daz
Without wanting to speak for F3G I don't think you have the first idea with regard to managing individuals.

Many of RYR employment contracts are written specfically to get around EU employment laws and the European Social Charter, especially with regard to temporary staff.

[daz211]

thats abit below the belt RYR do not nor will not
take short cuts that will endanger any pax, staff, or a/c

and they will at some point come up against a new loco
but as a very profitable company they will then make
changes but why do it now its working and the airline
is breaking records and announcing loads of new routes
and buying 100's of new a/c taking on new bases

it might seem wrong to many how they run the company
but like i said its working and making loads of money
and yes your right its only a 10yr old company but
look where it got within that time

[Final 3 Greens]

SXB

I chose my words carefully.

On the evidence presented in this thread, I agree that Dazz presents as a clueless people manager, far too Anglo Saxon in perspective for my liking :ugh:

[daz211]

without wanting to repeat myself

If you dont like the airline or the terms of contract
dont go for the interview

If I was against war I would'nt join the army then
moan that I had to fight

[SXB]

Daz
They do take certain short cuts, for example it's clear they don't check life jackets at every turnaround, because they don't have time. Whilst this particular transgression may not seem major (maybe other airlines do the same ?) but to any entity investigating a mishap this would be judged as being a 'culture' and if they don't check that what else don't they check ?

I don't think RYR are less safe than other airlines but if they had an incident they would be under the spotlight very severely. Read my post again (this is important in management :) ) I said 'perceived' shortcuts and it's true the public do perceive that RYR take short cuts.

[daz211]

you have been watching to much tv (DISPATCHERS) program
that was a load of bull

RYR have one of the newest fleets in the world
and such airlines as BA have been investigated for much worse
shortcuts

[SXB]

F3G
Yes, those anglo-saxons, they can't even find the time to have a proper lunch:E

Maybe Daz will reveal his identity and I'll discover he's my boss :eek:

Daz, what is your loyalty to RYR ? do you work for them or a subcontractor ?

[SXB]

Daz
BA's safety record is pretty untouchable, in fact I believe (though I may be wrong as I'm doing this from memory) that they haven't had a crash since Staines, when they weren't BA in any case. If that is so than that's an awful lot of sectors over an awfully long time so they must be doing something right. Maybe they just have the right business culture ?

[Final 3 Greens]

http://www.villagemagazine.ie/article.asp?sid=1&sud=10&aid=1094

I suppose that this article got its facts wrong too?

SXB

Sadly BA had a middair in the former Jugoslavia in 1976, due to ATC error.

The Anglos wouldn't know what a good lunch was, even if they took the time for it :-)

[SXB]

Certainly a management issue, to allow a pilot to command an aircraft just a couple of days after he buried one of his children is intolerable, to say that his manager wasn't aware of the situation would not be acceptable, any manager worth his position would have been aware of such a fact.

Ok, he may not have been forthcoming with the information but I'm fairly confident that if I'd spoken to one of my staff a few days after one of their children had died I'd have been able to see some sort of problem, in fact I'm 100% certain I'd have seen it.

Thanks fro the clarification about the incident in '76, I don't remember it, sadly.

[daz211]

Weirdly enough British Airways (BA) is yet again on the receiving end of a public dressing down from the UK's regulatory authorities. This time the Air Accidents Investigation Branch is giving them a very hard time indeed over what it found when it dug down into BA's maintenance empire after a medium-embarrassing incident with a 757 (http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/12/16/Navigation/177/203631/Investigators+query+British+Airways+maintenance+practices.ht ml) back in 2003.
That comes just a few weeks after the AAIB also jumped on an incident when a BA A319 crew shrugged off a mid-air electronics failure (http://www.flightinternational.com/Articles/2005/11/29/Navigation/177/203305/British+Airways+A319+loses+all+flight+displays+at+night.html )with rather more sang froid than the investigators felt was appropriate. And that was distressingly close to another report which also widened its remit from looking at a panel loss on take-off (http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/G-VIIA_3-05.pdf)to several other events that the investigators felt were looking alarmingly like a pattern.
Surprise was also expressed in the business (though not unanimously, and mostly in the USA) when a BA crew flew a loaded 747-400 from Los Angeles to the UK after suffering an engine failure shortly after take-off.:=

[daz211]

A Norwegian court sentenced on Friday (24 June) the pilot of a British Airways aircraft for preparing to fly even though members of his crew were drunk.
The court found that the British Airways pilot was sober but must have known his co-pilot was intoxicated when preparing for takeoff. The pilot was sentenced to six months in prison, while the flight's purser was sentenced to 45 days in prison for being drunk on duty. A similar case against the co-pilot is still pending.
On 11 November 2003 a British Airways Airbus A320 was scheduled to leave from Oslo to London with 55 passengers. British Airways ground personnel suspected some of the crew of being intoxicated and called police, who went aboard to conduct breath tests. The flight was cancelled and police took the pilot, the co-pilot and purser to hospital for blood tests, which found that the co-pilot had a blood alcohol level of 1.02 ppm, while the purser's level was 1.34 ppm, reported the Associated Press.

[daz211]

Three years ago an investigation showed a co-pilot and steward downing five-pint jugs of beer in 45 minutes, then laughing about how they were unfit to fly to Gatwick next day in their 747. Fourteen British Airways staff were suspended and two later dismissed after the probe - but within six months of the programme eight had been reinstated.

[daz211]

Yet more BA cabin crew 'fail breath test'
Two air stewardesses were prevented from boarding a British Airways flight from Helsinki to London, after allegedly failing a breath test. oct 2004:=
BA confirmed two cabin crew members were taken to the airport police station in the Finnish capital on Saturday

[daz211]

British Airways audit finds poor safety

LONDON, Jan. 1 (UPI) -- An investigation into three years of mechanical problems for British Airways jets finds "systematic issues" jeopardizing safety.

A report by the Air Accident Investigation Branch highlighted a number of incidents over the past three years, The Sunday Times of London reports.

The report pointed out no individual mechanic was willfully negligent but problems were "symptomatic of the existing culture" of bad maintenance practices and lack of quality supervision.

[daz211]

some thing again


Finally, as we confirmed in our response, the PPRuNe thread that was taken down contained untrue and false claims about Ryanair's safety standards and our safety record. No airline can allow unfounded and inaccurate claims about its safety to be promulgated in any forum, even if it is an anonymous Internet chat room where there is no restriction on subscribers and where there is no basis for his claim that it contains -- either "informed insights" or "raucous comments."

[SXB]

Daz
I hope you enjoyed staying up half the night looking for safety incidents involving BA on the internet.

BA has an excellent safety record and digging up a few articles from the internet isn't going to change that.

[Final 3 Greens]

Dazz

I have no interest in comparing BA with Ryanair, as I do not work for the BA nor do I have any vested interest in supporting the company.

My citation of the Village article was simply in response to your assertion about the Dispatches programme.