Ryanair again (sorry)

[Wedge]

I know the previous thread has just been closed but I want to ask those who know about the facts here. Just had my first experience of Ryanair. Now I know it's a Lo-Co, and my fare was very cheap, I'm also aware that because my fare was so low (STN-Palermo - about £85 return) I have no right to expect silver service. But what happened on arrival went too far imho.

Last night paxing PMO-STN landed at 2355Z. Running 45 minutes late so the flight deck did well to get us back before the airport closed which would have meant a diversion to BHX.

On arrival in the baggage hall there was a huge glut of pax waiting for their baggage. Announcements on PA apologised for the delay and said that it was due to a large number of incoming arrivals. All the people waiting as far as I could see were FR pax.

It was just after 0140 before the first bags off the flight came through (I noted the time - 01:45 minutes after landing). The only staff on duty were BAA, who said (understandably) that it was not their responsibility, that it was Ryanair and Swissport we needed to talk to, but that they had all gone home. Rumours of a baggage handling strike were denied by the BAA staff, one chap telling me it's all Ryanair, that they have only three people processing the bags for all the late arriving flights (is this true?), and that this was a nightly occurence (is this true?); not only that but in fact it was better than usual and it's been like this for one year. I find that hard to believe.

I asked about the contract - surely the airline have a duty to get your bags to you within 'a reasonable time'? He said Ryanair have a sneaky way round this which means you have two contracts, on to get you from Airport A to Airport B and the other to get your bags from A to B and then to you (is this true?).

Again, I don't expect much when I fly Ryanair, and until this point I was very happy (apart from having to wait 2 hours to clear check-in and 'security' on the way out which was not the fault of FR). But this is just not on. I missed the last train back, and was very lucky to get a lift to Golders Green from a very very nice El Al employee who I'd only asked for directions to the bus.

What is going on?????? Sort it out Mr O'Leary!

[flybywire]

Unfortunately I can only empathise with you...Same flight, last september, same situation exactly.

I am burning inside, believe me, but my lips are sealed....:oh:

FBW

[Glasgow_Flyer]

Unless I am reading your post wrongly - it looks to me like Ryanair did their bit fine (great low fair giving people the opportunity to get about affordably) and that the problem lies with the handling agents.

I also think Mr O'Leary is doing his best to sort it out by doing his best to let us take on our 25kgs of hand baggage again.

Nothin worse than having to wait for bags - I was about an hour on Friday night at Edinburgh - but not really the airlines issue.

[10secondsurvey]

Unless I am reading your post wrongly - it looks to me like Ryanair did their bit fine (great low fair giving people the opportunity to get about affordably) and that the problem lies with the handling agents.

I also think Mr O'Leary is doing his best to sort it out by doing his best to let us take on our 25kgs of hand baggage again.

Nothin worse than having to wait for bags - I was about an hour on Friday night at Edinburgh - but not really the airlines issue.


Every company in the world would love to abdicate responsibility just because they sub-contracted. It doesn't really work like that.

It would be useful to hear if someone can confirm or refute the specific points raised by wedge, as they are important.

[Musket90]

Wedge

Ryanair contract Swissport to do their handling at Stansted, so O' Leary won't sort it out. Ryanair's late evning arrival schedule at Stansted is very heavy (check BAA Stansted arrivals) and unfortunately it is not uncommon to experience delays for baggage at that time of night, particularly if some flights are running slightly late which causes bunching at an already busy time. What hasn't helped is the recent security enhancements which has not helped LCCs to achieve on time performance for the 3 + sectors that most aircraft do in a day. All late evening Ryanair arrivals are scheduled in by 2350 local so it's possible Swissport have roster timings to suit. Not sure what incentives there are for staff to stay on later to handle delayed flights, seems not a lot given your experience and given it was bank holiday weekend.

[PAXboy]

WedgeBut what happened on arrival went too far imho.So, don't use them again. I don't. If they are making the ticket price cheap it is because they have cut ALL their costs and if that means only paying Swissport enough for X staff, rather than Y at the end of the day - then that is down to the cleverness of FR.

[Final 3 Greens]

Wedge

I don't wish to sound harsh, but what did you expect from this airline? At the end of the day they got you safely to and from Palermo and fulfilled your contract with them. Yes you missed the train, but that is not the airline's responsibility (read the terns and conditions of your contract.)

If you look on other threads, you will find differences of opinion between the likes of SXB and Slim Slag about the relative merits/demerits of Ryanair.

Some people find the service acceptable, others do not. Ultimately it is a matter of choice.

Take PAXboy's advice if you find this incident unacceptable.

Did you know that Air Malta flies from LGW to CTA? (Catania) If you book well in advance it will cost you more that Ryanair, but probably not as much as you think and you'll get a meal, decent seat pitch and full service.

The choice, as ever, is yours.

[Bangkokeasy]

I also flew into STN on a couple of occasions as SLF recently, once before the security hooha and once after. I am one of those who accepts Ryanair for what they are, as long as they don't start falling out of the sky. That said, the Swissport baggage handling is truly pi$$poor. Given the FR system, one usually finds oneself standing in line to board, while gazing out of the window at, yes, the baggage handlers misshandling the luggage. It is excrutiating watching the bags falling off the conveyor and being crammed into the trolleys. I am sure they do it on purpose.

The other notable thing about STN baggage handling is the fact that there will always be a small number of bags on the carousel after everyone has left. It is sad to read the tags for Malaga, Rome, etc, and in one odd case, Anchorage, Alaska (I suppose they just didn't know where it was, so refused to touch it).

[Wedge]

I don't wish to sound harsh, but what did you expect from this airline?

Simple answer to that.

I expected to get my bags within one hour of landing. That would have been fine. One hour 45 imho is just not on, even on a low-cost. I'm not an FR ranter, I think it's in many ways a terrific airline, and as I said until this point I was very happy. But to wait nearly two hours for your bags (which if I'd been flying in from France would have been longer than the duration of the flight), is just taking the p!ss. Sorry but it is.

It's a matter of choice, true, this was my first time on FR so I think I have a right to complain without being told "you made your bed, you lie in it", etc.

P!ss poor Michael. You have built a very successful airline, and it won't go bust if I choose not to fly FR again. I didn't know Air Malta go to Catania, it is only FR who go direct London-Palermo (I believe), and if I fly to Sicily again soon I may choose the Air Malta option. Thanks.

If anyone can answer the question re: the contract I'd appreciate it. I know FR are very clever but I suspect they're on dodgy legal ground with their exclusion clauses on baggage, or the fact that you have two contracts with them (if this is true: note - just because a clause is included in a contract does not mean it is legally enforceable.

[slim_slag]

The 'contract law' that relates to baggage can be found in international conventions and eu regulations, maybe that's what your baa source is talking about, but it applies to them all. It is a good assumption that all airlines will hide behind these regulations and treat you poorly when things go wrong, that's unless your name is posh spice. There is another thread where somebody has been waiting for his artificial leg for a week, and he didn't fly on Ryanair.

I've found that some airports are better than others. It's the ones which have got busy in the past five years and have modern infrastructure that are the best.

[ped90]

The baggage loads at the moment are about 25% heavier than they would normally be at this time of year because of the current security rules. This is obviously having a major impact on the time it takes to load and unload aircraft.

Because the aircraft would have been picking up delays throughout the day due to this and the fact that STNs runway is presently closing at midnight on Sat & Sun for resurfacing, means that a large number of aircraft are landing between 23:30 and 00:00.

Also Swissport's late shift is rostered to finish at 23:59, leaving only a small amount of nightshift and any agents willing to stop on for overtime (bearing in mind that most of them would have started at 13:30 and will be fairly shattered because of the heavy loads they are coping with) to unload the late arriving aircraft.

As you can imagine all of this coupled together means that it will take longer to get your bags if you're coming into STN at around midnight on the weekend.

I know this wont make you feel any better about having to wait over an hour for your baggage but hopefully it will explain the reasons why.

[howflytrg]

Its not just Ryanair at STN who have problems with Handling agents short staffing. LGW has issues too. Especially with Aviance and EZY. I'm not sure whether AEU have dropped Aviance yet, but FCA sure did!
I had a very memorable flight last summer with a 3 hours wait from chocks to First bags!!! Anyone from Aviance insight??? Nope, but can't blame them. The management don't hire enougth staff. Usually because the handling agent offer their services for a very cheap price to the airlines. Sadly this 'cheap price' means skeleton staffing.
I start to feel sorry for the loaders who must have to work their :mad: off with a full 757 to get the bags in, knowing that there are another 5 aircraft waiting for them after they have finished that one! All arrinving at the same time, with the pax wanting their bags (quite rightly) ASAP.

[howflytrg]

HA's have Service level agreements with the BAA, at BAA airports. I can't remember the exact figures but the HA needed to have called 'Last Bags' at 90 mins from chocks. At least I think thats what the number was. It may well be less. If the bags are not all delivered in this time a reason needs to be given by the HA which is noted. To cut the story short HA's are fined for their short comings if the reason for repeated delays is their own fault, eg no staff. Whether the airlines have a similar process, i do not know. Sorry.

[daz211]

The other notable thing about STN baggage handling is the fact that there will always be a small number of bags on the carousel after everyone has left. It is sad to read the tags for Malaga, Rome, etc, and in one odd case, Anchorage, Alaska (I suppose they just didn't know where it was, so refused to touch it).[/quote]

please understand that the baggage belts at stansted are used by all
airlines and every airport i have been there is bags left on the belts
to other destinations
ryanair has a very low lost baggage rate but i do agree that if you
arrive at peak times at stn you wait for bags i have had this with
easyjet ryanair mytravel el-al and kibris-turkish the main problem
at stansted is not the airline but the lack of baggage belts
only 5 belts in international baggage hall you only have to look
on Baa website arrivals between 2300-2359 to see that this is
not enough belts for the volume and is no reflection on ryanair
its just that this is a peak time for the airline

[10secondsurvey]

... It is a good assumption that all airlines will hide behind these regulations and treat you poorly when things go wrong, that's unless your name is posh spice.


I've flown a heck of a lot over many years on many airlines, and I would strongly disagree with this assumption, it just isn't the case. There are exceptions, however, as Wedge has just found out.

As regards other points about staffing at Stansted, I think Wedge has a valid complaint, whether it's Ryanair or any other airline. If pax don't complain, standards will never improve, in fact they will just get worse.

Can anyone in the know tell us what steps the relevant managers are taking to rectify the problems at Stansted? Or are they just not going to bother?

[daz211]

BAA are to build at least one more baggage belt
in the int arrivals hall but having worked at stn
in the past one is not enough if you ask me another
four wouldnt be enough at peak times
some people may not agree but baggage belts or
lack of them at stansted is the main reason for delayed
baggage every night every baggage belt built for one
flight at a time has at least 3 or 4 flights/pax waiting
in the hall for each and every belt to become available
having been in the undercroft and seen the baggage truck
sometimes 8 or more waiting for a belt to come free

the point is most of the time even peak times the bags
are down in the undercroft with-in 20min it just takes
another 30-40-50min for room on a baggage belt
to become free

I can tell you all if your waiting for bags I bet they are
in the undercroft waiting to come up and if you look round
upstairs at the baggage belts they will be full with at least 3
other flights bags going round

[slim_slag]

10secondsurvey,

Unfortunately the AUC (pdf) (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/306/Annual%20report.pdf) doesn't agree with the rosy picture you paint.But it is a worrying indication that far too many people are having problems with baggage that they entrust to the care of an airline, and that many of those who have such problems are having difficulty in obtaining suitable redress.When things go wrong, which fortunately doesn't often happen, passengers are not treated well.

How are things at Heathrow? Found that leg yet? I bet the owners of the 20,000 bags there would be delighted for their luggage to only be 1hr 45 minutes late.

[daz211]

well said
If they could they would blame ryanair for LHR problems
well why not every other problem in the world is ryanairs fault

[flybywire]

[i]I didn't know Air Malta go to Catania, it is only FR who go direct London-Palermo (I believe), and if I fly to Sicily again soon I may choose the Air Malta option. Thanks.

Wedge, just for your information BA fly from LGW to CTA direct too, prices start from £89 return inc.taxes, of course if you fly on the less busy days.

However Catania and Palermo are a few hours away, it took me about 5 hours by car via Messina/Cefalu' (if you go north)and around 3 hours via Enna (if you go south first then take the big motorway to PMO).

Air Malta are very good too and I think they fly out of STN. :ok: they also fly out of LGW and LHR but I think you'd need to connect in MLA which might add to the cost of taxes.

I hope you enjoyed your stay in Sicily though and that the incident with baggage didn't spoil it for you, I think Sicily is a truly undervalued gem. Cannot wait to go back again!!!:ok:

[Final 3 Greens]

Hi FBW

KM do fly direct to CTA from LGW, so no extra costs.

I-d agree that BA are also a good potential choice.

[flybywire]

Hi FBW

KM do fly direct to CTA from LGW, so no extra costs.

Brilliant!! That's good news for me too as I have so many relatives in Sicily and live near LGW! I tried to find a proper KM schedule for Wedge but their site seems to have a little bit of a problem with the flight timetable at the moment so I might try later!!

Thank you :)

[SXB]

From what some posters have said this can be a regular occurence with RYR flights at STN arriving after 23.00. If that is so then RYR will know about the problem and they have absolutely no excuse for ignoring it. I don't buy the explanation of insufficient carousels being the problem, I've never heard of anyone else waiting such a time at peak periods. The problem is straightforward, more resources are needed for baggage handling at those times. RYR won't do anything because they couldn't care less.

I once waited an hour for my luggage at FRA after a nightflight from Baku via Vienna, apparently there was some kind of technical problem. After an hour I just went to lost baggage and said I wasn't waiting any longer as I considered it delayed and they could put into a taxi when it arrived, they didn't even argue with me and my bag turned up a few hours later. I seem to remember this was with Austrian Airlines. I don't know how much a taxi costs from Frankfurt to Strasbourg but it's about 230km so it isn't cheap, of course I'd paid about €2500 for my ticket so I didn't really care. Another example of getting what you pay for. For info RYR don't fly to Baku, in fact I don't believe they fly to FRA either

[flybywire]

For info RYR don't fly to Baku, in fact I don't believe they fly to FRA either

Oh yes they do.... Stansted-Frankfurt (Hahn)

The same way they fly to Firenze (Pisa) and Venezia (Treviso) :E :E :E

;)

[SXB]

Just for anyone who thinks Frankfurt (Hahn) might be a good deal it has to be at least 100kms from the city of Frankfurt. How on earth can RYR use the city name of Frankfurt when flying to Hahn ? Don't the trades description people have an opinion on this ?

Imagine if you were German and boarded a plane to London only to arrive in the baggage reclaim hall to see a sign saying "Welcome to Ipswich" When complaining you could be told the train station is down the road or there's a bus stop outside the arrivals hall.

I once collected someone from Hahn airport and it really is in the ar*e end of nowhere. Interestingly I don't recall seeing any BA or LH aircraft parked on the apron, I imagine when they say they are flying to Frankfurt they deposit you at the major international airport situated just a few kms from the city of Frankfurt.

[Final 3 Greens]

Frankfurt Hahn is about 75 miles or 120 km from Frankfurt

It is called Frankfurt Hahn by FRAPORT who run it (and also FRA, the airport that actually is near to Frankfurt)

I once took the family there for a weekend and we visited Koblenz and had a generally very nice time in time in the middle of a rural area miles away from any built up nonsense ;)

[daz211]

so you dont buy it the baggage belts or lack of them
well you seem like a very well informed man
and I guess your maths is rather good

lets see normaly there is 30-35 flights landing
between 2250 and 2350 lets say as a guess that all
have 150 pax and all have bags and all are international
flights there are 5 baggage belts you do the maths
coz I cant fit all them flights to baggage belts

and as far as you not trusting what I say re baggage belt
and baggage trucks waiting in line in the undercroft
trust me I drove them truck for 3 years and unloaded
the ryanair aircraft which took no longer than 15-20 mins
from on blocks even before everyone had baggage you would
wait approx 50mins at peak times now with every pax having
at least one bag it must be hell

[A2QFI]

I do agree that the description is more than unfair but I don't think anyone flies into Hahn and actually thinks it is near Frankfurt city. I go there every 3 months or so with a work colleague and it suits us for a day out. 15 miles from the charming Mosel, he goes to Wittlich and buys a zillion ghastly cigarillos which save him £400+ on the UK price. We then use our military ID to go to the PX/BX shops at Bitburg and Spandahlem and stock up on things. Coffee and cakes in Bernkastell and back to the airport. £15 Stansted parking, £25 each return airfare and £45 for a one day hire of a 'C' class Merc. That said, there is no way you would get a good day's proper business done in Frankfurt city centre via Hahn - you'd have to night stop. Somebody wants the flights - they are always very full.

[daz211]

how far is LHR. LGW, STN, LTN, from london
the only airport in london is city airport
not all people fly to an airport the go to the closest city

back to the start we go again, ryanair fly to CIA
and other major flag carriers fly to FCO
which of the two is closer to the city of rome ?

[SXB]

DAZ
All those London airports have fast transport links into central London.

London is one of the largest cities in the world, hence all the airports (bar one) being on the outskirts.

As regards baggage, RYR always have an excuse, don't they ?

[10secondsurvey]

10secondsurvey,

Unfortunately the AUC (pdf) (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/306/Annual%20report.pdf) doesn't agree with the rosy picture you paint.When things go wrong, which fortunately doesn't often happen, passengers are not treated well.

How are things at Heathrow? Found that leg yet? I bet the owners of the 20,000 bags there would be delighted for their luggage to only be 1hr 45 minutes late.

What has someones artificial leg got to do with me????? I haven't got it, honest!


I never painted a rosy picture, and cerainly not of LHR/BAA (I have posted often on the subject of BAA/LHR recently). Unlike others here, I have on varying occasions criticised BA, Virgin and BMI, and will do so with any airline where I think it is merited. Equally I will praise where I think it is merited.

As to the subject in hand, as I said I have flown over many years with many airlines, and usually the relevant staff try to help out if there are problems, so like I said, I completely disagree with your assumption that airlines will not try to help when things go wrong. That is my experience.

I would just like to know how the relevant management plan to sort out the problems highlighted by Wedge. He has a valid point.

[Final 3 Greens]

how far is LHR. LGW, STN, LTN, from london

LHR 18 miles

LGW 32 miles

STN 35 miles

LTN 35 miles

... and Hahn is 75 miles away from Frankfurt

... so

57 miles further than LHR

43 miles further than LGW

and shall we just say more than twice as far as STN and LTN?

Please enrol for remedial geography immediately daz :E

And CIA is a great little airport for point to point travel, as is LCY, but neither are hubs, which FCO and LHR are, so apples and pears.

[flybywire]

how far is LHR. LGW, STN, LTN, from london
LHR 18 miles
LGW 32 miles
STN 35 miles
LTN 35 miles
... and Hahn is 75 miles away from Frankfurt
... so
57 miles further than LHR
43 miles further than LW
and shall we just say more than twice as far as STN and LTN?
Please enrol for remedial geography immediately daz :E

:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

[goshdarnit]

I am not sure that the actual distances involved are the issue - are LGW, LTN, STN, genuine "London" airports? We could discuss that all night. EMA has been renamed "Nottingham EMA" for marketing reasons even though it is a lot closer to Derby!
Fact is that certain LoCo's maps simply list an interesting city location (Glasgow, Frankfurt, London, etc) without making it clear that the airport is in the middle of BFE with no easy links to the actual place you thought you were going. Seasoned travelers will know these things but the vast majority of folks (who travel by plane rarely) will generally assume if a destination is given as "Stockholm", that is where they will be. Regular, easy and high speed links (as is the case with ARN) will make this not a problem; but the real issue is: the marketing is at best disingenuous and at times simply downright lies. And I don't buy the concept that if you don't read the small print then tough luck. There must surely be some kind of transparency to protect the majority of travelers (who are not frequent SLF).
(You may guess from this that I once found myself in the wrong place!)

GDI

[Final 3 Greens]

am not sure that the actual distances involved are the issue

Well, when the airport is 75 miles away from the city it's named after, I might take issue with your statement :rolleyes:

Let's think of some crackers ............

Newcastle West (Carlisle, 61 miles)

Lancaster North (Carlisle, 67 miles)

Darlington North (Carlisle, 76 miles)

Carlisle could be on a winner here :-)

[slim_slag]

Every trip on an airline has two bits at the end where you have to go by land.

Some people off to Frankfurt will find it more convenient to go to an airport ten miles from their house, fly to Hahn, and then travel the 70 miles to Frankfurt.

Some people will find it more convenient to travel 90 miles to Heathrow, fly to Frankfurt airport and travel the few miles to Frankfurt.

If you lived in Santiago de Compostela and you wanted to go to Frankfurt, I'd be interested in reasons to travel via Madrid just so you could fly to Frankfurt airport. You'd fly from your local airport non-stop to Hahn and do the road trip the other end.

People are so stuck in the past, these locos have opened up a huge part of Europe where it now makes it easy to fly. That has boosted business and generated jobs in the regions (and in the airlines).

And what about the people who live near Hahn? They have a service where before they had to drive to Frankfurt. Those who want to fly LHR-FRA just get on with it and stop telling the rest of us what to do with our money.

Total time from door to door and total cost from door to door is all that counts, IMO. That will depend greatly on where you live, and most people don't live in London.

[daz211]

just to let you know
all those people talking about 5 baggage belt are enought
and are nothing to do with stn baggage delays
tonight arrivals between 2300 and 2359 total (44) flights
thats 44 arrivals in one hour each a/c carrying well over 100 pax
and bags

now tell me that this has nothing to to with the baggage arrival times

[SXB]

Daz
how many of those 44 arrivals are RYR ?

[goshdarnit]

Slim
you've missed the point - call the location Hahn in the marketing map and not Frankfurt.

[10secondsurvey]

slim slag

You are correct about budget airlines in some casses opening up alternative routes, but the point by goshdarnit is also true. It is the deceptive nature of the place names with some airlines that cause problems.

I mean why not call Gerona what it is, rather than calling it Barcelona, which it clearly is not. Or why call a former military airfield at Weeze in Germany, Dusseldorf (which it clearly is not). Sure, new routes have opened up, but only under the pretence they go somewhere other than where they really go to.

[Bangkokeasy]

Daz211, sorry to take issue, but the problem at STN doesn't seem to be mainly the belts. In my case recently, the only reason the baggage hall was so full, was all the people were standing arround waiting for a carousel to be allocated to their flight.

At no time were more than three out of five carousels in action. The reason why I mentioned the forlorn bags still on the carousel, clearly mis-delivered, was that nobody had bothered to remove them (for the entire 1.5 hours I was there waiting for my bags). Next time any of you go through STN, I recommend to check the destination tags of these bags, just for a laugh to see the destinations!

Further to that, there was a very fine drizzle on the evening in question. When my bags did finally arrive, they were significantly wet, which means that for a good portion of that time, they were sitting out in the open (unless of course, this undercroft you mention isnt "under" at all).

[slim_slag]

Slim
you've missed the point - call the location Hahn in the marketing map and not Frankfurt.I didn't miss that point, I ignored it :) I was answering the other point which was that locos fly into places in the middle of nowhere. If you don't like the airport name then write to the airport.

One loves this site. Somebody who has driven baggage carts for three years is being told he doesn't know about baggage.

10secondsurvey. BAA own Stansted and Heathrow. So why are 20,000 bags missing a at Heathrow for a week a LHR/BAA problem, yet bags delayed 1hr45mins late at Stansted an airline problem? We have somebody who has driven baggage carts at STN for THREE YEARS saying it's an airport problem, but that doesn't fit into peoples prejudices, so it gets argued with. What a larf!

[daz211]

your bags might be wet as I told you earlier the baggage trucks have to wait in a line to get to the baggage belts alot of the time this means the truck with your bags on are outside until there is room inside for the truck
last night in the last hour peak 44 flights landed in an hour they all cant get inside at once.
have you ever thought why the misrouted bags were still on the baggage belt this could be because the people who collect them bags were busy talking to pax wanting to know where the bags for their flight were also the time you landed at stansted was the peak and no belt would be checked at this time anyway once the peak is over and before the staff at the baggage desk go home the belts are cleared and bags are sorted into airlines
now a point I have to make is that the swissport staff ryanair team that clear the belts and put all other airlines bags infront of the correct airline handling desk for the morning shift to forward another point I know that the ryanair team swissport are the best in tracing baggage at stansted and all the other airline agents have to ask for help in finding routes and even sending forward messages for the rush bags now you can start to trust me in what I am telling you or you can carry on living in a dream world the reason I left the job was this problem and getting the blame for delayed bags to baggage belt the BAA even came up with a good idea to get them out of trouble with the airlines and put in place a button/speaker so as soon as the baggage carts got to the back of the line the driver (ME) had to walk to the front past many other baggage truck press the button and say I was delivering bags for my flight even though it would take me at least 30min to get to the front of the line so BAA baggage to belt times looked good and a note to sxb all airlines bags have to join this line but it looks worse for RYR as they have more flights "O" and one more point while im sitting in this line my next flight is pulling onto stand and the one after that is number 2 to land

[10secondsurvey]

Slim,

I am well aware of which airports are run (mis-managed) by BAA. I have read all of the posts relating to why the delays may happen at Stansted, but nobody has yet said whether anything is being done to resolve the problem. Whether that is Ryanair management or BAA management or both, it is important to know whether those airlines who do sub-contract baggage staff at Stansted are doing enough to resolve the problems.

Surely you appreciate that resolving issues like this will not only help pax, but also the staff involved.

The original poster asked about baggage services for Ryanair at Stansted, not LHR/LGW, so that is why the focus of the thread is on Ryanair at Stansted.

So, there are not enough staff, and the runway is being re-surfaced, and there are lots of flights all arriving at the same time. So what? can't someone get the finger out and do something about it? That is what managers are paid to do.

So, does anybody know whether the relevant management are doing anything to resolve the problems, or are they just not going to bother?

[daz211]

I know BAA are building one more baggage belt at stansted
and the next fase of terminal expansion will be to extend
the baggage hall and baggage belts if you read my other
replys it would seem that not much has been done as I
worked there 5 years ago for 3 years and the airport has almost
doubled its movements and still nothing exept baggage belt 6
was put in but belt 6 is tiny
the reason I was told nothing was being done was they needed
to expand the security point for outbound pax I did point out
that the outbound pax would need to rtn at some point
but still nothing

[Globaliser]

If you lived in Santiago de Compostela and you wanted to go to Frankfurt, I'd be interested in reasons to travel via Madrid just so you could fly to Frankfurt airport. You'd fly from your local airport non-stop to Hahn and do the road trip the other end.As always with statements trumpeting the advantages of FR, it's useful to dig a bit deeper to see exactly who would benefit and who would not.

From a quick search, it looks like FR flies SCQ-HHN three times a week, on Tuesdays, Thursdays and Saturdays, at 1555-1820. The return flights are at 1300-1530.

If you were flying from Santiago on FR for a typical short business trip and you didn't want to spend the weekend in Germany, you'd be limited to flying out on Tuesday, staying two nights and flying back on Thursday.

If you were to fly on a connection (looks like BCN is a more likely transfer point), you could probably fly any day of the week, stay one night and come back - and still have at least 24 hours of business in Frankfurt. Or, if pushed, you could transfer in both directions and still make a day trip with about 6 hours between flights

If you were flying from Santiago on FR for leisure, there's no sensible trip which would involve less than flying out on Thursday and back on Tuesday, ie 4 days off work (or 3½ if you worked Thursday morning).

However, if you were to fly on a connecting flight, you could do a classic Friday-Sunday or Saturday-Sunday trip.

There will be people for whom the FR schedule works, nevertheless. But (contrary to your insinuation) there are some stonkingly good reasons why you'd choose to travel via somewhere else to get to Frankfurt. And that's before you even look at the service level differences - although given that the choices appear to be IB and Spanair, this point may not have as much force and, indeed, AB may be the most attractive competitor on those grounds.

[10secondsurvey]

So, is it fair to say, all potential pax using Stansted should avoid using flights due to land between 10pm and midnight? As it sounds like this is a real problem period.

That is how it seems.

[daz211]

I would say your right at this moment in time
but most of the people using ryanair before 10aug
didnt have baggage and used only hand baggage
so the problem was'nt as bad so before 10aug
I and may other who payed a few £££ for the flight
would not mind waiting 40-50 mins for bags

[EastMids]

Pay peanuts, get monkeys. Be it whether its the the passenger paying peanuts to Ryanair, Ryanair paying peanuts to Swissport who haven't got enough resources, or Ryanair paying peanuts to the BAA who haven't got enough baggage belts.

[daz211]

I do have to say that I used VS last year LGW-SFB-NAS-SFB-LGW
I waited 1hr20m for bags and there were only 3 flights landed at this
time around 0600 the reason was short staffed and the staff had
to deal with the outbound flights first after 1hr20m over 60 still
missing filled out PIR which took over an extra hour because
chk-in staff had to do reports the bags turned up 2days later
and they were found at LGW they had been there all the time
in a baggae bin

At least ryanair have (swissport) staff that only deal
with delayed,missed and lost baggage and thats the job
they do all day every day not some blond bimbo from
chk-in that cant fill out a simple form

[daz211]

Im no monkey and can tell you that the baggage handlers
work very hard at stansted and do more than their best
to do their job i take it your on £100,000 pw and your
the best in you company get a life

[daz211]

RYANAIR must be doing something right
show me any other airline in the world
with stats like this !

107 new 737-800 (in the air)
138 firm orders to de delivered with-in the next 6 years
179 option for order

this will double the size of ryanair and they will carry over 70m p/a
by 2012

so go on keep digging at RYR it gives you something to
do with your sorry little minds
Ryanair Passenger Growth in Millions
http://www.ryanair.com/site/about/history/img/paxgrowth.gif

[10secondsurvey]

Daz

I don't think EastMids was saying baggage handlers actually are monkeys, It is a well used phrase (pay peanuts, get monkeys) in many occupations, both by employees and customers.

I am quite sure nobody at Stansted gets really paid actual peanuts. MOL maybe hasn't thought of that yet ;)

[EastMids]

Im no monkey and can tell you that the baggage handlers work very hard at stansted and do more than their best to do their job
I'm sure they do - I was not questioning the individuals at all. However, if there are not enough of them, no amount of effort will improve the situation. And why aren't there enough baggage handlers, enough baggage belts, etc? Because the return on investment isn't there - because ultimately the passenger wants to pay less and less for travel and airlines like Ryanair (and some others!) are in turn spending less and degrading service to accommodate those demands for lower fares. Airline travel has increasingly become a miserable experience, because those ever reducing fares mean there's less money to available to spend on resources and services, be it flight crew wages, ground staff wages, the number of baggage handlers, the number of security screening points that are open, the number of baggage belts.

Put "pay peanuts, get monkeys" another way - you pay for what you get. I'm no £100k person despite what you suggest, but I'm happy to pay more to and airline that will make the investment in resources that stand a reasonable chance of getting my bag to the belt after 15 minutes rather than 105 minutes, and that will provide me with a fall-back if they can't provide what they promise without me putting my hand into my pocket again.

Andy

[daz211]

you must have missed my VS comment
and I payed a hell of alot for that one trust me

but when I can go and have a day trip or weekend
break for less than a days wages I and many others
dont care im paying for a seat and a seat alone
thats all I want

for the same price I could have a seat on the train
to london from colchester thats a 45min train trip
to london for the same price as a flight to many
places in europe

its more than worth a wait for baggage
do you not get it its not that hard to understand

[Final 3 Greens]

Slim

Although I agree with what you say about regional airports offering good local service and convenience, I've got to take issue with your comment

"If you don't like the airport name then write to the airport."

Since Frankfurt Hahn is the official name, not Frankfurt (Hahn) as I believe is used by Ryanair, I do think that the airport isnot to blame in this instance

[EastMids]

do you not get it its not that hard to understand
Daz, I really think its you who doesn't understand! :ugh: Some of us do not want to wait for 105 minutes for our bags, some of us don't want the knob sat next to us rattling on the mobile for the entire flight, some of us don't want to listen to the crew trying to sell us scratch cards/train tickets/duty free/butties, some of us don't want the scrum for boarding to get a non-assigned seat, some of us don't want to put a pound in a slot to use the crapper (as you suggest in another thread)... That's why this thread started, in fact. No matter how cheap the ticket, IMHO the Ryanair experience is still usually more miserable than travelling with some of the other airlines, more miserable to the extent that Ryanair is best avoided. Fortunately, there are some airlines on which we can have a higher degree of assurance that these things won't happen, even if things go wrong occasionally (unlike on Ryanair, where they happen all too often) and even if we have to pay more.

Andy

[TightSlot]

Please try and de-personalize your comments

:hmm:

(does that phrase exist?)

[daz211]

well thank god you got it in the end !
well said "some of us" dont want blar blar blar!
but as you can see from all the stats ryanair is one of the if
not the fastest growing airlines in the world with the
newest aircraft in the sky and the biggest orders for more
aircraft

so it seem that some of you are not happy
but most of us are very happy

now you might not agree but why buy more and more aircraft
and announce more and more routes if we are not happy to
travel ryanair :ugh:

[PAXboy]

daz211I would say your right at this moment in time
but most of the people using ryanair before 10a ug
didnt have baggage and used only hand baggage
so the problem was'nt as bad so before 10aug
Oh Yes It Was!! I arrived at STN in the 23:00 hour on 8th January and the wait for bags was horrendous.

Secondly, on 16th July I met a friend arriving in the 23:00 at STN and it was horrendous. Whilst she only had a knapsack, the sheer volume of pax to get through the terminal left me reading a book for a good half an hour longer than I expected.

And, just to add another bit of short staffing, the Immigration desks can't handle the work load either! :hmm:

[RevMan2]

And what about the people who live near Hahn? They have a service where before they had to drive to Frankfurt. .


The people who live near Hahn? Nobody lives near Hahn!

Think Yorkshire Dales/Scottish Highlands.

That's the population density (and potential market) around Hahn

[raviolis]

Every company in the world would love to abdicate responsibility just because they sub-contracted. It doesn't really work like that.

It would be useful to hear if someone can confirm or refute the specific points raised by wedge, as they are important.

Airlines subcontract their ground handling and set targets in terms of time and staffing (if 2 loaders turn up instead of 4 it will take a lot longer).
Since Ryanair and any other airlines pay for this service, I'm pretty sure they monitor it, and if something goes wrong they'll want an answer, or at least a cost reduction.
It is unfortunate that the passenger is the ultimate victim of this, but hey ain't that just the way it goes ?

We tend to accept that buses and trains run terribly late, public services are understaffed and unefficient, but when it comes to airplanes there's very little tolerance ! And there's far less staff running the turnaround of a Ryanair 737 than there is in a Tesco garage at busy times !

[XSBaggage]

Raviolis is correct, Ryanair monitor EVERYTHING surrounding their ground handling intensely and regularly refuse to pay when they feel they have not been given the service stated in their contract. However, I feel they pay too much attention to getting departing flights away on time and perhaps the debacle which started this thread is simply not important to them - the pax get their bags and FR don't have their precious on time statistics affected.

But IMHO I am very surprised they have not come down on Swissport for this one.

XSB

[Biggles' Apprentice]

Ryanair monitor EVERYTHING surrounding their ground handling intensely and regularly refuse to pay when they feel they have not been given the service stated in their contract.



There is a delicious irony in there if you look hard.

[PAXboy]

raviolis... and if something goes wrong they'll want an answer, or at least a cost reduction.They will only want a cost reduction! :p
We tend to accept that buses and trains run terribly late, public services are understaffed and unefficient, but when it comes to airplanes there's very little tolerance!Good point and I think this is because trains and busses have been slow, over crowded and inefficient for many, many years. Whereas, for the airline world, it's a very new failing and we can still remember when it was a good service with airlines giving top customer service. But, money is the final arbiter and the Brits have always liked to have something for nothing. Now we have it. :ouch:

[slim_slag]

PAXBoy,

Oh come on PAXBoy. Everybody looks at the past with such nostalgia and only remembers the good things. How much did this 'good service with top customer service' cost you before deregulation allowed these upstarts in? It must have worked out at £10 an olive in your airline meal. And they still needed taxpayer handouts, the very taxpayers who couldn't afford to fly because prices were out of their reach. If you want extras there are plenty of airlines that will give you that, at a higher ticket price of course. The rest of us can buy food from the cart and lounge access on the door, and use the money saved to buy dinner for the missis at destination.

If it was correct that the locos have dragged service levels down, then why is economy class so rubbish on routes where they don't compete? Transatlantic economy class went downhill well before Ryanair or Easyjet exploded into the European market.

The people who live near Hahn? Nobody lives near Hahn!

Think Yorkshire Dales/Scottish Highlands.

That's the population density (and potential market) around HahnCatchment area with a population of 8 million within a 250 km radius of the Airport (http://www.fraport.com/cms/fraport_worldwide/dok/203/203943.frankfurt_hahn_airport_hhn.htm)Rather denser than the areas you provide. Anyway, is this a shareholder's forum? If the airline is flying unprofitable routes then it's a problem for the shareholders. If passengers don't like Ryanair, which a minority obviously do, then they should be encouraging them to fly loss making routes so they go out of business. Then their darling full service airlines can pump their prices up again and provide £10 olives.

F3G,

I think you might be onto something. Not only is has Frankfurt-Hahn got some extra brackets, but the BA website calls LHR "London (Heathrow)" too! That might explain why so many bags are missing, the silly airline has been labelling them with the wrong address!

[10secondsurvey]

..We tend to accept that buses and trains run terribly late..

Maybe you do, but I don't. That is why I last stepped on a bus around twenty years ago.


Just because other modes of transport are cr@p, does that mean it's ok for Ryanair to do the same?


Slim Slag,
Quote "..the BA website calls LHR "London (Heathrow)" too"

The reason for that is simply to differentiate from LGW/LCY. Quite different from what Ryanair does - and I am sure MOL would openly admit it.

Anybody who flies often on any airline in Europe, knows that Ryanair deliberately mis-use place names instead of the long -forgotten places they actually fly to some 100+km away. Jeez, it isn't a secret.

[daz211]

ok I see now your the rule maker
It has to be cleared by you to say if an airport is to
far away to be called a city name well go on then
what is the rule 10m 20m 30m ??

and also some people would find it a good thing
for an airport to be called a city name alot of
people cant afford to fly away for the weekend
on flag carriers or should I say ex flag carriers

and their geography might not be as good as
the people using this site

so a trip to GRO or REU might not jump out at them
as being close to BCN on the RYR website it shows
as REUS (barcelona) not barcelona (REUS) to me
and many others this is only showing a alternative
to BCN

[10secondsurvey]

Daz


Why don't Ryanair just fly to Barcelona airport, and then they can call it Barcelona.

Flying to Reus is great as a way to get to Reus. For Barcelona, it is much more sensible to actually fly to Barcelona.

Guess which of these airports Ryanair doesn't fly to?

Reus airport 80Km from Barcelona

Gerona Airport 106 Km from Barcelona

Barcelona Airport 13Km from Barcelona (Hint: This is the real one)

[daz211]

yes I know in a way your right
but alot of people that fly to BCN are going to the
beach resorts and some are going to the city we
all know REU is better for beach resorts than BCN
but BCN in better for the city

and also people must be happy flying to secondery
airports unless ryanair would'nt have not the money
or the pax to buy 100's of new A/C

[daz211]

alot of ryanair routes fly to main airports which BA use
and if you notice more and more of the many routes
that they announce are into main airports
see below
LEI ALMERIA
BRI BARI
BLL BILLUND
BDS BRENDISI
FAO FARO
FEZ FEZ
GDN GDANSK
LNZ LINZ
GRZ GRAZ
MAD MADRID
RAK MARRAKESH
MRS MARSEILLE
PMO PALERMO
OPO PORTO
RIX RIGA
SZG SALZBURG
SVQ SEVILLE
TRN TURIN
VLC VALENCIA
DUB DUBLIN
SNN SHANNON

So you see many do go to main airports
and the ones that dont just give people
the chance to see other parts of the country
not just the city area
as well as giving none city types the choice of using local airports
in their own country like the ones we are all growing to like
in this country

[Final 3 Greens]

Slim

As ever with you, a quality comeback :)

However, what is the relative size of the font on London and Heathrow on BA's site, compared to Frankfurt and Hahn on the FR destinations map, after clicking?

And I'm being charitable, since on the top level says only Frankfurt :eek:

[flybywire]

Slim

And I'm being charitable, since on the top level says only Frankfurt :eek:

Correct!

And if for Frankfurt(Hahn) we could really come to a conclusion where we could all agree, there's no doubt that Venice(Treviso) and "Venice Marco Polo" (VCE) are two different airports, It's like saying that Jersey is another London's airport....I do not think so!!:=

The same thing is valid for Verona(Brescia) (in reality called called "Aeroporto di Brescia - Montichiari") and "Verona Aeroporto Catullo" (VRN) ,They are two separate airports and by no means Brescia is Verona's second airport!!! They are in two different Regions!!!:eek:

And the list goes on......

[slim_slag]

Well, we can joke about font size and number of brackets in the name, but some things on here are simply disinformation.

flybywire claims Treviso is called "Ronchi dei Legionari" and not Venice-Trevisowhich is a false claim.

Ronchi dei Legionari (TRS) is not Venice Treviso (TSF). The former is at approx 45° 49' 36'' N 13° 28' 20'' E. The latter at 45° 39' 06'' N 12° 11' 56'' E.

All good fun though. One thing is for sure, Ryanair has annoyed a lot of people, but I suspect not as many people as it has made very happy.

(Now lets hope I got that right or I will look very silly, lol)

[manintheback]

1980 I had the delight of a 24 hour bus ride to the South of France - I couldnt afford the £110 excess to fly.
2006. Wife, daughter and I, £152 all in for the three of us Gatwick/Nice return on EZY.
Indeed Ryanair and the like have made alot of people very happy.

[Final 3 Greens]

we can joke about font size

I wasn't joking.

Neither was I joking when I said that the top level map said only Frankfurt.

I don't know how many people Ryanair have made happy, but probably not as many as ladies of the night, which is about as relevant as your reply to me :}

Manin the back

I agree that EZY are a great airline - look at their delay/canx policy and compare it to Ryanair's - or BA's for that matter. One should not confuse price and value since EZY are leading the market in this respect, in my uninformed pax opionion.

[flybywire]

Well, we can joke about font size and number of brackets in the name, but some things on here are simply disinformation.
flybywire claims which is a false claim.
Ronchi dei Legionari (TRS) is not Venice Treviso (TSF). The former is at approx 45° 49' 36'' N 13° 28' 20'' E. The latter at 45° 39' 06'' N 12° 11' 56'' E.
All good fun though. One thing is for sure, Ryanair has annoyed a lot of people, but I suspect not as many people as it has made very happy.
(Now lets hope I got that right or I will look very silly, lol)

Sorry I got mixed up with Trieste and Treviso (pregnancy hormones I suppose...I am doing a lot of silly things these days) however I have amended my post above to eliminate the false information. :ok:

[SXB]

A lot of the statistics on this thread don't really indicate whether RYR are providing a quality product, though I don't think anyone, including the RYR supporters club, are really suggesting that that their product is better than that provided by 'real' airlines who provide all round travel services like flying you from one continent to another. The one area where RYR are strong is price but as far as I can see it's their only strength.

McDonalds are also enormously successful despite the fact that their product is clearly complete and utter rubbish, that said it's cheap to eat lunch there rather than going to a 'real' restaurant. Also, they don't accept reservations, you just turn up and fight with everyone else for the best seats. By not employing waiters McDonalds can make their product cheaper.McDonalds also pay some of their staff very poorly. Some people choose to eat at McDonalds and some prefer to spend more for a better quality product. Again, a matter of choice. As far as I can see RYR are the McDonalds of the airline business.

Interestingly the RYR haters on the board seem to be the really frequent travellers, which tells it's own story. For those of us who travel all the time can you imagine our lives if we had to travel with RYR all the time ? Of course that's really academic as they don't have the route network and they certainly don't have the customer service backup that business travellers demand.

[slim_slag]

SXB,

Do you and others really 'hate' Ryanair? That is an interesting choice of word. It's only an airline for god's sake, it hasn't murdered your first born child. Why does an airline generate such hostility on here? What has it done to you for you to use the word 'hate'?

As for airline preferences, I think Ryanair still has some way to go before it is like the role models Southwest or Jet Blue (not "real" airlines in your book, but others might disagree) I think Ryanair has a good chance of getting there, if that is in their business plan. I don't think your "network" airlines have a chance of emulating southwest or Jet Blue right now, they still have far too many problems remaining from the cushy days of regulation and high ticket prices, IMO.

As for statistics, take a look at airline on time arrival and cancellation figures - and lost baggage statistics. All very important to the business traveller. I think you will be unpleasantly surprised :)

[flybywire]

What a great post SXB, I completely agree! :ok:

And Slim-slag.........I do not see any hatred in SXB's words...it's one of the best, non-offensive posts I have ever seen about ryanair.
Ryanair do not compare themselves to the likes of BA, BD, VS etc, and he was just stating a fact!

As for on-time statistics...one thing I have noticed is that you almost never depart on-time but the block-to-block scheduled times allow for so much delay that you end up landing on time. Good thing, but nobody can tell me that to fly from STN to GOA you need 2 hours 10 minutes...it's never taken more than 1hr 35m! I am not complaining, again just stating a fact. If it works to get people there on what they percieve as "on time" then I am happy! :ok:

[Final 3 Greens]

Slim

IMO, Ryanair cannot be an airline of first resort for complicated business travel, which requires interline arrangements and redundancy in the event of disruption. EZY are in the same category. Should either team up with Maxjet or EOS at Stansted, that could offer an interesting possibility for US travellers.

Air Berlin are an interesting comparison as they do offer hub and spoke connections.

If you are doing non-complex point to point, then the "traditional locos" may do the job, assuming that you are comfortable with their t&cs and modus operandii.

Otherwise, I'm with SXB,on business give me a traditional airline in a strong alliance anyday, but on leisure I'll take a loco happily, especially EZY. It's not a matter of hate, but one of practicality aqnd/or personal preference.

[slim_slag]

flybywire,

I am simply taking a word from SXB's post, SXB used the word 'haters' with respect to Ryanair.

Then I asked a series of questions in order to clarify what SXB really means. I can understand people 'disliking' Ryanair, but hate?. I think when that sort of word comes out things are getting nuts and objectivity has gone out of the window.

F3G,

It's horses for courses. I have used FR and EZ on business when it suits me flying in Europe. Sometimes they work, sometimes they don't. What ryanair have done is provide additional choice, and forced the legacy airlines to compete. I actually think BA's value for money offering in Europe has improved since Ryanair and Easyjet came on the scene, had these new upstarts not arrived then BA would still cut service levels but without cutting fares. Competition is generally good for the consumer.

[daz211]

why would you pick EZY over RYR ?
if you were low costing

have you not see the amount of canx flights they
have, I love low cost airlines and would use AB
if the network was better

however having given EZY 3 chances I avoid them

1st flt STN-NCL day trip to visit mum in hospital
aborted landing and turned to MAN
coach to NCL arrived at NCL after my RTN
flt had departed made to pay for another
flight

2nd flt IBZ-STN flight canx missed days work
put on next flt next day

3rd flt PRG-STN delayed 4 hrs got onboard sat for
1 hr then got told to flight was canx
got back to departure lounge only to see
pax for LGW boarding our a/c

now you might not trust what im saying is true
but that was my only flights with EZY im not picking
out the bad ones

and as for RYR I have flown then about 40 time and only
had one problem delayed 1 1/2 hrs out bound to REU

[10secondsurvey]

Slim_slag

You have raised an important point about competition in Europe. It is true that some fares have become more competitive, but this is not just due to Ryanair, as there are many good budget operators who work to much higher standards of service delivery, such as flybe and AirBerlin. The real problem comes as a business traveller, as the cheap fares are not available at short notice.

I have not noticed a reduction in BA fares or any other carrier for that matter, but this is because I book at short notice to travel on business. I have however, noticed a serious reduction in service standards (and seat pitch) in Airlines, including BA whose seat pitch will shortly be the same as Ryanair/EasyJet. My honest opinion, is that Budget airlines have had a negative effect for people travelling on business in Europe. Service standards are being lowered across the board (along with pay and conditions for staff) but business (flexible Y or C) fares are not, in order to effectively subsidise the headline grabbing cheapo fares, sold below cost.

The only people who have benfited from this are the type of leisure travellers who can be extremely flexible on travel dates, and book well ahead. If you fall into that category, you will think budget airlines are great. If you fly on business, and can still remember the high standards of service that previously existed, you may not think so. Competition is great in any industry, but it won't always be beneficial to all segments in the market.

[slim_slag]

10secsurvey,

I'd agree with some of what you say. It was deregulation that allowed competition but that was some time ago now. In the early days BA just ignored this and carryed on as usual. It took an airline like Ryanair years to become a certain size and start kicking BA's ass and only very recently did BA realise it has to compete. Unfortunately BA sat on it's backside for too long and Ryanair was too big, it was no Laker and couldn't be squashed. This was to the benefit of BA passengers, and I thought that was all we cared about on here :)

So you have brought up prices. If you want to compare fares for BA, FR and EZ at any time on any roughly equivalent route then pick them and I'll run a simple comparison. What I suspect you will find is that FR is significantly cheaper than BA for any period you select, short term or long.

My major memory of flying on short notice in Europe twenty years ago is high prices, not level of service, but I do remember two drink runs and a hot meal on the MAN shuttle. Rather expensive drinks though when you look at the ticket prices.

[10secondsurvey]

SXB,

..As for airline preferences, I think Ryanair still has some way to go before it is like the role models Southwest or Jet Blue (not "real" airlines in your book, but others might disagree)..


Ryanair has a very,very long way to go before it can be like Southwest, and I doubt it would ever want to be like JetBlue (a quality airline). I would so love someone to set up a Jet Blue equivalent in Europe, as I think it would have the effect of pulling up service standards in ALL airlines. Hey, maybe Aer Lingus could be re-born as the JetBlue of Europe??

[flybywire]

Slim_slag

I have not noticed a reduction in BA fares or any other carrier for that matter, but this is because I book at short notice to travel on business. I have however, noticed a serious reduction in service standards (and seat pitch) in Airlines, including BA whose seat pitch will shortly be the same as Ryanair/EasyJet.

Just to reassure you, BA (I speak for mainline Europe) are not going to change their seat pitch for short haul and are retaining Club Europe on all their destinations, with full Club Europe service. I do not know where you heard of this new seat config, I knew they were looking at new seats but exactly the same pitch just better materials and wider.

If people can plan a little bit in advance (same system for every lo-co) BA have reduced their fares incredibly in Europe, just have a look at their website under "planning my trip" then --> "Our low fare routes".Fares start at £25 one way including taxes.

In fact sometimes for me is cheaper to by a normal online ticket with BA than to fly ID90. In may I went to Turin for £69 return, including taxes, I booked 2 weeks early and those were not even the cheapest days to fly. Same days with FR were over £140.

Like F3G I too prefer Easyjet to Ryanair. I have always had a pleasant experience with EZY, all around, despite their modus vivendii is not too distant from FR's. It's just a matter of choice, in my case the choice is highly influenced by precedents.
So I do not "hate" no-frills airlines, I have used them when their schedule was convenient for me. However as a crew, and as a frequent traveller I know what the benefits of a "traditional" airline are and I know that I couldn't do without it for 99% of my flights.

FBW.

PS:F3G it's always great to see that Latin still means something to people nowadays!!:ok: :ok:

[slim_slag]

10secsurvey,

Now that could be an interesting and novel thread, how could Ryanair become a Southwest/Jet Blue and how far away are they?

1) When you get a problem you need real people on the phone who are empowered to immediately solve it for you, within the T&C of course.

2) No longer point to point, transfer baggage and people within the ryanair network, and if a flight gets in late book you on next one at no penalty.

3) Better web based interface to change travel plans.

4) Frequent flier plan, Southwest's is absoultely superb, best in the industry IMO.

That's about it.

The quid pro quo would be higher ticket prices. Southwest and Jet Blue are not anyway near loco in the same way Ryanair is, you don't get anywahere close to the same deals as Ryanair offers. Maybe if given signifiantly higher ticket prices most people prefer Ryanair as it is, who knows, I might be one of them.

For BA to become a southwest would require changes to their corporate culture which would be a lot harder than the above changes to Ryanair, imo.

[flybywire]

10secsurvey,
If you want to compare fares for BA, FR and EZ at any time on any roughly equivalent route then pick them and I'll run a simple comparison. What I suspect you will find is that FR is significantly cheaper than BA for any period you select, short term or long.

There's some truth in what you say. Although for example to fly with FR to Turin at £30 (even with fares at £0.01 once you add the taxes you end up paying at least around £30) I have to go to STN, which costs me money in petrol, parking, time etc. If for the same period BA offers a £59 flight, return, all inclusive but from LGW I end up spending much less,since I live down south, so it's definitely cheaper for me.
It's not just the ticket price itself that needs to be considered, in my honest opinion.

[flybywire]

For BA to become a southwest would require changes to their corporate culture which would be a lot harder than the above changes to Ryanair, imo.

BA doesn't want to become a jetblue of the UK, it's not in their intentions and it's something completely different from their philosophy. Even if they could cut the service/costs even more etc, they would not work as a low-cost, for the same reason why EI was "voluntarily kicked out" of the Oneworld Alliance.
They need to give some kind of consistency to their passengers connecting to and from long haul.
But their new prices have been proven successful, until last year BA's shorthaul was only a feeding network for their long haul routes, now it stands on its own. There must be some kind of success behind this.

I wish FR became like Jetblue, they have far more potential than BA in this field as they were born a low cost and didn't need to adapt their style. Jetblue is by far the best low cost carrier I've ever flown with, everything is better, from the cabin crew to their ground handling, and would fly with them again :ok:

[Globaliser]

So you have brought up prices. If you want to compare fares for BA, FR and EZ at any time on any roughly equivalent route then pick them and I'll run a simple comparison. What I suspect you will find is that FR is significantly cheaper than BA for any period you select, short term or long.But we've been down this road quite a few times already. FR is usually cheaper but not as cheap as the raw statistics would suggest, because most people don't have the luxury of picking the cheapest day of a 7 day period to fly out, and the cheapest day of a 7 day period to fly back. For those pax who can only fly out on one particular day, and only fly back on one particular day, the only fair comparisons are for the fares on those specific days alone. Only when you get the fare differential for those days can each individual person make up their own mind about what is good value (as opposed to simple low price).

[Final 3 Greens]

daz

This extract from the easyJet T&Cs is why I wouold choose EZY....

. If your flight is cancelled as a result of extraordinary circumstances

If your flight is cancelled as a result of extraordinary circumstances which could not have been avoided even though we took all reasonable steps , including but not limited to:

* Air Traffic Control
* Weather
* Civil unrest
* Terrorist alerts and Security alerts
* Strike Action
* Unexpected flight safety shortcomings

easyJet will not compensate you further other than providing you with one of the following options (“Re-routing and Reimbursement Options”):

You will be entitled to:

1. Re-routing to your final destination at the earliest opportunity; or

2. Re-routing to your final destination at later date at your convenience and subject to availability; or

3. A refund of the fare paid for the journey not made and for the journey already made where the flight no longer serves the purpose of the original travel plan. This refund can be claimed by visiting our website (www.easyJet.com) and completing the online cancelled flight form in the contact us section. Additionally, where relevant, we will offer a return flight to the first point of departure at the earliest available time.

In addition, you will be offered free of charge two telephone calls, or telex or fax messages or emails.

Where you choose to be re-routed at the earliest opportunity:

1. You will be provided with meals and refreshments in a reasonable relation to your waiting time; and

2. If an overnight stay is required because the reasonably expected time of departure is at least the day after the time of departure previously announced, easyJet shall offer you hotel accommodation and transport between the airport and the hotel free of charge.

And they deliver on these promises.

Check out Ryanair's T&Cs and you will find...

Ryanair does not provide compensation for flights which are delayed or cancelled for reasons beyond Ryanair's control.

That is very clear and on this forum I have posted several times that Ryanair have laudibly clear T&Cs, but as a FQTV I am aware of the potential for disruption "if you have time to spare, travel by air" and the difference in T&Cs makes it a no brainer for me, since even with travel insurance (which I have), there is still the matter of finding avaialbel hotac when a lot of other people are trying too and then the hassle of arranging ground transport, e.g. have I got enough cash for a taxi.

In effect, I am prepared to pay a premium (since EZY are often more expensive that FR), because I buy based on best value which is a subjective judgement, not lowest cost which is data driven.

However, if you prefer Ryanair and it works for you, then I'm pleased for you.

[10secondsurvey]

Slim_slag

Of all the budget carriers in Europe, I would think Ryanair would be one of the last to make it to equivalence with southwest. Wasn't it just recently, that Southwest took great exception to Ryanair comparing itself to Southwest.

There are many innovative airlines in Europe, good examples are flybe, and AirBerlin. In fact, I stand to be corrected, but I think AirBerlin is becoming very like southwest, much more so than any other European budget carrier.

[daz211]

Its all well and good having the fall backs and I would feel that I would need them
more with EZY than with RYR
everyone has a choice and mine was made due the things
that happened to me on my 3 EZY flights
yes I did get compensation from EZY but it was like
getting blood from a stone and not the tax so we are
talking a few £'s not the full cost of the flight
where in 40 flights with RYR I had one bad but not that bad
flight so as far as I see it the best choice for me is RYR

Im lucky that I live near STN and have a large choice
of low cost airline I have used many and would always
look at RYR first and then the others but RYR always comes
out on top for price and dep times and network

I have to say AB would be a good choice but they need
more routes

[Final 3 Greens]

daz

It all comes down to our preference at the end of the day and we are lucky to be able to choose the option that suits us best.

Have a good day.

[Rollingthunder]

Easyjet charges for second bags
A budget airline is to charge passengers an extra fee for putting a second bag in aircraft holds.
Easyjet said the increased security measures at UK airports was to blame for the move.

It will cost passengers £10 to put additional luggage in the hold on check-in or £5 if paid in advance.

Spokesman Toby Nicholl said: "We've seen in the past three weeks an explosion in the amount of baggage put in holds and it is delaying check-ins."

He added: "We're trying to incentivise passengers to take one bag to reduce delays."

bbc

Is incentivise a real word?

[Final 3 Greens]

Is incentivise a real word?

The Oxford Dictionary says it is, although it would prefer the last s to be a z, as it comes from a Greek root.

[10secondsurvey]

Re: Easyjet new additional baggage charges


Quote : "We're trying to incentivise passengers to take one bag to reduce delays."


More like, we're trying to make a fast buck whilst the security scare lasts, and dress it up to look like we're helping passengers.

[Final 3 Greens]

10sec

I agree that this sounds as if there may be an element of presentation to make it more acceptable, but I wonder what has happened to handling costs and whether this is a cost recovery tactic with delay reduction benefits?

We know that the airlines have been increasing hand luggage allowances and one wonders if their contracts are based on a target number of pieces per flight, with penalties for more? In which case the latest restrictions will be costing the airlines a lot of money, as do delays.

Daz, can you shed any light, without giving away commercial info?

[daz211]

I see today that EZY has canx somemore flights EX-
EZY3076 - OVD
EZY238 - EDI
EZY516 - NCL
EZY3776 - BIO

anyone know why ?

see this is what I was going on about EZY seem to be canx
flights on a daily basis

[Globaliser]

I see today that EZY has canx somemore flights
...
anyone know why ?

see this is what I was going on about EZY seem to be canx
flights on a daily basisI think it's been discussed quite widely on PPRuNe that EZY is having some capacity problems, and there's quite a lot of subbing going on for them as well as canx - a search might throw up some of the threads.

[SXB]

Slim_Slag
I don't hate RYR and there is nothing in any of my posts to suggest that I do. The term 'RYR haters' and 'RYR supporters club' were just convenient labelling terms for the two main groups of opinion. It's interesting that you pick up on this point more than other, more relevant, points I made.

I'll say again that I don't consider RYR to be a real airline, they fly point to point to cherry picked destinations. This is of absolutely no use to me what so ever, I need airlines with large route networks and quality backup services.

The legacy carriers seem to be a bit more forward thinking in their route planning as well, they regularly take huge hits on certain routes in order to strengthen sectors further down the line, this is especially important for someone like me living in provincial France away from a main hub. In recent years AusAir, LH and AF have all made significant efforts to pick up business from my locality with BA doing the same from FRA, I can get into these airlines networks with the first sector almost thrown in for free.

Like I said earlier I have nothing against RYR in the same way I don't have anything against McDonalds, National Express Coachlines, Brittany Ferries or the Manchester Bus Corporation. Their products are either unsuitable or I just don't like them.

[daz211]

o dear o dear
looks like BA is more like RYR after all


Operational problems at Terminal 4 - TODAY
Terminal 4 is experiencing operational problems today as a result of severe congestion in the baggage system caused by the high volume of bags being processed. As a result the terminal building is heavily congested and check-in for the time being, has been suspended. BAA and British Airways are working closely together to resolve this issue and sincerely regret any inconvenience this is causing or may cause to passengers

[flybywire]

Oh dear oh dear...

BA has ongoing problems at T4 and we all know that. The way BAA handled the chance of security threat level wasn't very good, for both BA and FR (In fact they're both contemplating asking for compensation....).
Hopefully after the move to T5 things will get better at LHR.

However...to say that BA and FR are the same.....I do not think so!!!!
:rolleyes:

[daz211]

well lets just say that many people on here wrote
many things about ryanairs baggage problems
and may I just say that it aint ryanair still sitting
with 1000's of bags and ryanair dont suspend
check-in lets just see how many more bags get
left at LHR

and your right you cant say ryanair is the same as BA
as ryanair are much better at getting your bags to
the destination on the same a/c as you

I would rather wait an hour for my bags than have
them left sat at LHR for week

and now its ok to say its BAA that have the problem
after I tried to tell you all over the last few days

[CARR30]

This is all going the same way as the last thread, it will all become increasing personal, nasty and irrelevant so why bother?

I'm sure we established last time that there are 2 propositions and a chorus, as follows...

• Proposition 1 (P1)
"Whatever any of us may think about FR, the fact remains that they are the most successful airline in Europe, by any criteria you can mention. The fact is that a majority of their customers are satisfied, and that this group of customers is expanding. Opinions about FR tend to be subjective - You like/admire them or you don't, sometimes based on personal experience, sometimes on principle: We all have the ultimate consumer sanction of taking our business away from them if we choose to do so. The fact is, by and large it doesn't matter what we do. There are millions of people who choose to fly FR and are happy with the product - not just the back-packers, students and sleep-on-the-floor-at-Stansted groups, but also the great British middle-class - the public, in their infinite wisdom, have decided that this is how they wish the air travel market to be, and therefore that's how it is."


• Chorus
"In the end, this is a customer driven industry, and the customer will decide how best to spend their hard-earned income - and in the case of FR, they are choosing to spend it there"


• Proposition 2 (P2)
"I loathe FR and O'Leary with all my being. Together, in my view, they have destroyed any pleasure and quality of life for either customers or staff, that ever may have existed in the industry. I have never travelled with them, and never will, purely on principle. I would rather pay more for what, in my perception only, is higher qulity. That is my personal view, and I am clearly in a small minority: it is unlikely that MOL lies awake at night worrying about my views. Put all of that together, and it probably means I am wrong, or at least that my principles are poorly founded."

• Chorus
"In the end, this is a customer driven industry, and the customer will decide how best to spend their hard-earned income - and in the case of FR, they are choosing to spend it there"

Now you can all save yourself an awful lot of effort just by typing either "P1" or "P2",

I'm still with P1, BTW.

[SXB]

I won't fly with RYR but I don't fall into either category. I don't hate O'leary, I've never met the guy though I will pay more for a quality service.

Also, I wish people would stop calling RYR the most successful Airline in Europe because they certainly are not, success is not measured by adding up passenger numbers on very, very short sectors and then saying you are bigger than BA and LH. RYR are to be congratulated on their increased revenues and passenger numbers but you can hardly expect the Legacy carriers to have similar % rises, in any case they are already huge customer bases. If you want to look at a real success story over the last couple of years look at the AF/KLM group, they've achieved good % rises in both passenger numbers and revenue. Again, this isn't an airline that I've liked in the past but one has to congratulate them.

I'd be interested to know where RYR sit in revenue terms with the rest of the worlds airline and I don't just mean in revenue from european routes, I mean just total revenue. I could probably get this info from the net somewhere but I'm sure someone else has this info to hand.

[daz211]

AF/KLM group

I remember them they try to block RYR giving customers a choice

[SXB]

Daz
Yes, I agree with that, I think everyone should have a choice, this includes RYR pilots and their right to join a union. I think it would be very underhand, and possibly illegal, if, for example, RYR attempted to get their pilots to sign a contract which said something along the lines of 'if you choose to join a union at a later date we may decide to make you pay back the cost of your conversion training - €15000' :)

Seriously though I agree with you, I assume you are referring to the STN-SXB route where RYR were found to be receiving subsidies from the local chamber of commerce (via airport and landing fees) the RYR deal was clearly good for the local community as they were flying thousands of people here each week for tourism putting millions of euros into the local economy. The only people losing out were AF, whose SXB-LGW route was like the marie celeste, hence the court action.

That said RYR often attempt to use the court system against their own employees and customers and while, on occasion, they win their moral position is often questionable. Normally they are trying to muscle someone into submission and they can sometimes do this because they are bigger and have more resources. Therefore it's quite amusing when an even bigger entity with more muscle and resources give RYR a taste of their own medicine. If you take on AF in their own backyard they will give you a legal pasting, on this occasion their moral position was questionable but technically there were correct.

[Final 3 Greens]

CARR30

P3 for me.

I use them if there is no alternative.

I don't hate them, just find using their service the equivalent of being stuck with the Sun when I'd really prefer the Economist.

Yep, it's better than having nothing to read, but that's about as good as it gets.

[10secondsurvey]

I'm sure we established last time that there are 2 propositions and a chorus, as follows...
Actually, wasn't it more like;

I'm sure you imagined last time that there are 2 propositions and a chorus, as follows...


(my bold)

[flybywire]

Actually, wasn't it more like;
I'm sure you imagined last time that there are 2 propositions and a chorus, as follows...
(my bold)

:ok: :ok: :ok:

[CARR30]

Oooh! It's all getting personal again.

P1

[Wedge]

I didn't intend for this thread to become another FR slanging match. I was just trying to find out if what the BBA guy at STN said was true. I was frankly shocked by the piss poor service I received from FR on a late night arrival at STN, on a bank holiday weekend, which meant I waited nearly 2 hours for my bags, only to be informed that this was a nightly occurence, had been going on for a year, and that as a result the BAA guy and his colleagues were leaving in droves as they were so fed up with it.

FWIW, I am with P1, on a qualified basis: that FR usually provides an excellent product at a very low price, and that when things run as they should, the customer is very happy. However, it appears that at STN I was not the victim of things going wrong, but the bog standard that is to be expected from FR for a late arrival. As has been stated, FR must be aware of what is going on and clearly can not be bothered to do anything about it.

If I could be bothered I would have complained and applied for compensation, but the fact I've advertised the situation with this thread and that it's been read by a large number of people is enough for me.

It's a shame, because right up to the last hurdle my first experience of Ryanair had been excellent and I had nothing bad to say about them.

[Final 3 Greens]

f I could be bothered I would have complained and applied for compensation

Oh, be a devil and go ahead and we can look forward to the thread letting us know how you get on :ouch:

[Wedge]

F3G, if you don't like this thread, you don't need to click on it, much less read it and post childish comments like that.

I suspect you've enjoyed it hugely, or you wouldn't still be here :rolleyes:

[10secondsurvey]

F3g had a perfectly valid point. Ryanair - compensation? what compensation??

As to your main point, as I have posted before, it would be good to know what the relevant management (Ryanair, BAA or whoever) are doing to rectify the situation. All I've seen so far are lame excuses.

[Wedge]

Well I read his post as a snipe - sorry if I misread it.

Anyway - re: compensation, I'd not have expected to get anywhere - however I was looking at the EU passenger's charter the other day and there is stuff about baggage.

If there's an expert out there who can give us a quick resume of what the passenger's contractual and other rights are in relation to baggage I'd be very interested.

[Final 3 Greens]

Wedge

Not a swipe at you as 10secondsurvey pointed out, but I think you'll be very lucky to get anything other from the airline (or any other airline) than an apology for a short delay, by which I mean that you got your bags back at the airport, not a few days later.

Now when they go missing for a few days, you might be able to get something then. Its happened to me three times in the last year and one one occasion I got £100 to cover emergency clothes purchases (missing for 2 days), whilst on the next it was a free overnight amenity pack (a very good one) and the bags back the next morning.

Until then, you have a choice who/where/when to fly with/from and it appears that late night arrivals at Stansted may well have baggage delays, so its a judgement of whether you are prepare to trade off some frustration for what you report as being a good deal, just as I sometimes have to decide how much I want to get home on a Friday night, when airports are mad places, compared to a leisurely Sat am. start.

[SXB]

F3G
Can you enlighten us on which airlines which provided you with immediate cash compensation and the amenity pack ? I suppose I'd be right in assuming it was not RYR in either case ?

[daz211]

final 3 - made a good point

you do have a choice who when and where you fly
but remember alot of airlines are having problems with baggage
if it were me I would stick with RYR as BA seem to be having
alot more trouble with baggage and im sure you would rather wait
upto 2 hrs for your bags at stansted than have your bag join
the 1000's at heathrow that are waiting to be delivered

[daz211]

you know 100% it was'nt RYR

[SXB]

Daz
We all know 100% that it wasn't RYR and the reason we know this is because they don't give a damn about their customers.

[Final 3 Greens]

SXB

Swiss and Alitalia (the latter at SXB by coincidence.)

Ryanair have never mislaid my baggage.

Reasons for this - (1) point to point airline, check in agents can't inadvertently label bag as LAX in stead of LUX - I kid you not (2) I don't use them much, so less exposure and (c) the randomness of travelling life!

I'v just reviewed Ryanair's T&Cs which are generally very clear, but they do not ay whether they would provide amenity packs etc.

I doubt it, as I imagine they probably expect loco customers to carry travel insurance to deal with such things (in fact they sell such policies), but I am speculating and may be very wrong, would be interested to hear from anyone know knows for sure.

[SXB]

F3G
If you stop over in SXB again let me know, I know all the best places to eat:)

I use Swiss a lot, especially when I'm paying out of my own pocket, loco prices but legacy backup. Zurich is only a 2 hour drive from SXB.

[flybywire]

FR never lost my bag, it always turned up, even if 3 hours late, but it did.

They only do point-to-point check-in so that should make things easier for the bags, since through check-in isn't an option for both pax and bag there are no rushed tranfers between aeroplanes at the intermediate stop.

However they did break my very solid Roncato bags 3 times (three times!) and I had to fight to get the money back for the repair and, in one case, to get a compensation since I had to buy another one.

They didn't even want to take their responsibility at that time, imagine if they gave "compensation" for a bag that turned up a couple of hours late.....hahahahaha :ouch:

[Globaliser]

So you have brought up prices. If you want to compare fares for BA, FR and EZ at any time on any roughly equivalent route then pick them and I'll run a simple comparison. What I suspect you will find is that FR is significantly cheaper than BA for any period you select, short term or long.Back to prices again. My Berlin friends phoned and said, how about coming over for a weekend in November? Sounds possible, as we have two free weekends (11/12 and 18/19 November). So let's see how much money we'd save using EZY or RYR.

Parameters: Do as close to a full day of work as possible on Friday before flying that evening, or fly on Saturday morning; Fly home on Sunday evening.

Weekend of 11/12 November
EZY is £67.98 for Friday/Sunday, or £62.98 for Saturday/Sunday. Possible to reduce this by £18 by flying back to Luton on a late flight on Sunday night, but this is not particularly good for us getting home.

RYR is £69.01 for Friday/Sunday, or £54.01 for Saturday/Sunday. The latter is only theoretical, because we really aren't interested in flying from STN at 0625 on Saturday morning. The exhaustion will rather defeat the object of having a weekend off and away.

BA is £83.40 for either Friday/Sunday or Saturday/Sunday. It could be £10 cheaper by coming back on a slightly earlier flight on Sunday, but we want to have more time in Berlin.

Weekend of 18/19 November
EZY is £55.98 for either Friday/Sunday or Saturday/Sunday, with a possible reduction of £11 by that late flight back to Luton on Sunday night.

RYR is £74.01 for Friday/Sunday, or £59.01 for Saturday/Sunday, with the same timing issue for Saturday morning.

BA is £83.40 for Friday/Sunday or Saturday/Sunday, as for the previous weekend.

Conclusion
When you test the proposition against some real people's real travel needs, we are not talking about a significant saving. Again.

And I cannot believe that we are the only people on earth whose weekends away must allow for the fact that we have to work on Friday and we have to work on Monday.

Data
EZY
10 November 19:55-22:50 Gatwick to Schoenefeld
£17.99
12 November 21:55-22:50 Schoenefeld to Luton
£19.99
£37.98 + £12.00 = £49.98

10 November 19:55-22:50 Gatwick to Schoenefeld
£17.99
12 November 18:25-19:25 Schoenefeld to Gatwick
£37.99
£55.98 + £12.00 = £67.98

11 November 08:25-11:20 Gatwick to Schoenefeld
£12.99
12 November 18:25-19:25 Schoenefeld to Gatwick
£37.99
£50.98 + £12.00 = £62.98

RYR
10 Nov 06 18:45-21:30 Stansted to Schonefeld
19.99 GBP + 15.98 GBP
12 Nov 06 21:55-22:40 Schonefeld to Stansted
19.99 GBP + 13.05 GBP
Total Cost of Flight 69.01 GBP

11 Nov 06 06:25-09:10 Stansted to Schonefeld
4.99 GBP + 15.98 GBP
12 Nov 06 21:55-22:40 Schonefeld to Stansted
19.99 GBP + 13.05 GBP
Total Cost of Flight 54.01 GBP

BA
10 November 19:20-22:10 Heathrow to Tegel
12 November 19:15-20:10 Tegel to Heathrow
£31.00 + £52.40 = £83.40

11 November 08:55-11:40 Heathrow to Tegel
12 November 19:15-20:10 Tegel to Heathrow
£31.00 + £52.40 = £83.40

EZY
17 November 19:55-22:50 Gatwick to Schoenefeld
£12.99
19 November 21:55-22:50 Schoenefeld to Luton
£19.99
£32.98 + £12.00 = £44.98

17 November 19:55-22:50 Gatwick to Schoenefeld
£12.99
19 November 18:25-19:25 Schoenefeld to Gatwick
£30.99
£43.98 + £12.00 = £55.98

18 November 08:25-11:20 Gatwick to Schoenefeld
£12.99
19 November 18:25-19:25 Schoenefeld to Gatwick
£30.99
£43.98 + £12.00 = £55.98

RYR
17 Nov 18:45-21:30 Stansted to Schonefeld
19.99 GBP + 15.98 GBP
19 Nov 21:55-22:40 Schonefeld to Stansted
24.99 GBP + 13.05 GBP
Total Cost of Flight 74.01 GBP

18 Nov 06:25-09:10 Stansted to Schonefeld
4.99 GBP + 15.98 GBP
19 Nov 21:55-22:40 Schonefeld to Stansted
24.99 GBP + 13.05 GBP
Total Cost of Flight 59.01 GBP

BA
17 November 19:20-22:10 Heathrow to Tegel
19 November 19:15-20:10 Tegel to Heathrow
£31.00 + £52.40 = £83.40

18 November 19:20-22:10 Heathrow to Tegel
19 November 19:15-20:10 Tegel to Heathrow
£31.00 + £52.40 = £83.40

[slim_slag]

Depends on what you understand the meaning of the term 'significant' to be. However, I note that Ryanair is 17% cheaper than BA for your single data point type analysis, so you have definitely not disproved my original hypothesis.

Looking at the absolute values you obtained using your single data point type analysis, as Luton is easier to get to than LHR/STN/LGW/LHR, and it's a pretty modern airport so baggage handling is going to be better than some of the others, then I'd take EZ. Note I have no other bias, I care not whether it's BA/FR/EZ in this instance, even though I think there is a definite third place airline in that list, and it's a distant third. The other two do a pretty good job, overall.

[Pax Vobiscum]

Unless you live in central London, your choice is likely to be determined by the departure airport - much more significant than a few £s difference in ticket price. For me, getting to Gatwick or Stansted adds an hour to the trip, so LHR would be favourite. If there were loco flights from Luton, then I'd go from there. I'm assuming there's not much to choose in the arrival airports at the Berlin end.

Your mileage may vary ...

[daz211]

yes and me living 20mins from STN I would use STN

[PAXboy]

s_s Your continued pressure to put forward all available options is commendable but price is not the only factor. On a recent trip, to Berlin as it happens, it was slightly more expensive to go from LHR than STN but a saving of 56 miles (in total) and a large chunk of that on the M25 and the time taken - meant that the £19 (I think it was) was overtaken by the saving on petrol and wear and tear on the car (and me).

Once you have established which field is closer to you and the one closer to the destination, the bald 17% saving must also have time, transport and food costs added to it. Another reason for taking BA to Tegel was that it would be faster into central Berlin.

There are many reasons for using FR, or not, and money is only one of them. It reminds me of a family I met recently where their late father was known to drive ten miles (round trip) to make a saving on the weekly shopping that his wife knew full well was erased by the petrol!

[Globaliser]

Depends on what you understand the meaning of the term 'significant' to be. However, I note that Ryanair is 17% cheaper than BA for your single data point type analysis, so you have definitely not disproved my original hypothesis.As ever, when faced with hard facts in a real life setting, you try to revert back into meaningless statistics. What's 17% of a small number? It's something that doesn't matter.

We're broadly talking about prices differences in the region of £10-20. On a service level comparison alone, that's well worth paying. (It's probably worth paying simply to avoid open seating.)

But if the price differences are this small, then other factors like ease of travel to airport also assume significance - as you rightly point out. I'd deliberately left them out before, as they're so personal.

As it happens, for me LHR is 70 minutes door-to-door and £2 away by Tube. LGW, LTN and STN are all much more costly and time-consuming execises - probably in the region of £20 round-trip. (And, as it happens, my friends live near TXL and a long way from SXF.)

"FR is significantly cheaper than BA"? Very often not so, when pricing real trips.

[flybywire]

As ever, when faced with hard facts in a real life setting, you try to revert back into meaningless statistics. What's 17% of a small number? It's something that doesn't matter.
We're broadly talking about prices differences in the region of £10-20. On a service level comparison alone, that's well worth paying. (It's probably worth paying simply to avoid open seating.)
But if the price differences are this small, then other factors like ease of travel to airport also assume significance - as you rightly point out. I'd deliberately left them out before, as they're so personal.
...
"FR is significantly cheaper than BA"? Very often not so, when pricing real trips.

Very well said! Also you might end up spending at least £10 on the plane for drinks alone - I know very well that people who usually fly FR on a certain route (easily spotted: they ask me for train tickets on board) enjoy this very much as they can have as many drinks as reasonably possible for free (or included in the price of the ticket if you like).

The ticket itself might be cheaper (your example is very good - well done!) on the same dates for the return flight FR charges £19.99 and BA only £15.50.
However taxes for LHR are higher but might mean that many people can get to the airport with £5 for the tube instead of £20 (if not more) alone for the NationalExpress buses to STN and maybe have to get up at silly am to make the cheapest flight with FR which might as well have a departure time of 6am.

There's no right or wrong, the two airlines give completely different services at very similar prices (look at Globaliser's example) and it's only up to the individual to decide what "way of travelling" suits them best.
I know exactly what I want and I also know why I work for BA and not for FR, and, I can promise you, it's anything but the money. (My mate who worked for FR made twice as much as me last year)

FBW

[daz211]

Ryanair: 1st airline to carry 4m pax a month
4 September 2006

Ryanair has confirmed that it had carried a record 4M passengers during the month of August, making Ryanair the first airline to carry more than 4M international passengers in 1 month. To mark this new record, Ryanair is giving away 4,000,000 FREE seats on its 371 European routes over the next seven days.

Ryanair now carries:

Almost the entire Irish population in 1 month
More passengers per month than British Airways’ 3M plus
Half of Aer Lingus’s annual 8M traffic in one month

[flybywire]

Congratulations to FR for being so popular :D

[SXB]

Globaliser
Interesting comparisons.

Daz
Those are meaningless statistics, you cannot compare airlines by passenger numbers when one of those parties only flies puddle hops around Europe.

[flybywire]

Globaliser
Interesting comparisons.

Daz
Those are meaningless statistics, you cannot compare airlines by passenger numbers when one of those parties only flies puddle hops around Europe.

I am officially offended by your calling the 737 a puddle hop but you are sooooooo right!!! :E

[daz211]

pick pick pick thats all you lot can do
how about, well done ryanair forget the BA and RYR
thing and take your hat off to em

the BA numbers were just to show how
big the number realy is, it's a massive achievement
and not in anyway a slap in BA's face

[SXB]

Sorry FBW !

Of course I was trying to illustrate that some airlines (real ones) operate a wide range of equipment reflecting their ability to provide a global product.

I have nothing against the puddle hopper, the most popular aircraft in the world I believe.

[SXB]

Daz
pick pick pick thats all you lot can do

That isn't true, I've said on numerous occasions that RYR are to be congratulated on their achievements as a company. From a business perspective going from basically nothing to a large corporation employing 35000 people in 20 years is an outstanding feat.

That said, I'm still not going to use them :E

[daz211]

Good dont use em I would hate you to take up 1 of the millions of free seats that they are giving away.:E
Before you say it I know they are not totaly free the tax still has to be payed

[SXB]

Daz
Good luck with the free seats (can't blame RYR for the tax !) and I hope you have have some good holidays. I see RYR fly to Marrakesh, I've been there a couple of times on holiday and it's definately worth a trip if you get the opportunity.

[slim_slag]

As ever, when faced with hard facts in a real life setting, you try to revert back into meaningless statistics. What's 17% of a small number? It's something that doesn't matter.You define 'significant' as being important. I define significant as being not purely due to chance. Do a google search and get back to me.

"FR is significantly cheaper than BA"? Very often not so, when pricing real trips.Well, are the times when it is 'very often not so' due to chance alone? To find that out you need to take more than one data point, but when you have done a google search on significance that might be more obvious to you.

[10secondsurvey]

Slim_Slag

The point is, by using percentage terms, it makes differences sound larger. When dealing with very small numbers it is much better to deal in absolutes. At these fare levels, I really don't think the difference is significant(important).

The differences in the fares shown are marginal, but there is a significant (important) difference in quality. That is why paying a few quid more to go BA can actually be a better value proposition.

As regards the word significant, you are using the definition from the statistical term 'significant', which would actually be wholly inappropriate in the context of the fare comparisons made.

Just to help you on your way, there is a very good explanation of this at the following link(I have no commercial connection);

http://www.statpac.com/surveys/statistical-significance.htm

In particular Quote "When a statistic is significant, it simply means that you are very sure that the statistic is reliable. It doesn't mean the finding is important or that it has any decision-making utility."


Do a google search (properly) and get back to me.

[slim_slag]

Ho Ho Ho 10secondsurvey, I do believe you have been hoisted by your own petard :)

[10secondsurvey]

Ho Ho Ho, I don't think so, read it again carefully, in particular,

"..It doesn't mean the finding is important or that it has any decision-making utility"

So you rabbitting on about statistical significance is utter tosh in the given context.

With reference to fare differences, this means that whilst you personally may find the differences to be statistically significant(?), it does not mean the difference is important from a decision point of view. That is, BA v.FR price differences. Concentrate!

I would suggest you actually follow the link and read the article (including the example given), as it may stop you going on about statistical significance, when it is quite irrelevant.

[slim_slag]

I have read the link, that's how I know it backs up what I am saying :)

[SXB]

Slim_Slag

I think you are trying to deflect attention from the main point of Globalisers post, which is for a trip with, more or less, fixed dates there is not a lot of difference in price between EZ, FR and BA.

If your dates of travel are fixed, like mine often are, taking an additional data point is irrelevant, I'm not in the business of providing statistical analysis, I take two fixed points in time and look what's available, this is what Globaliser has done.

Statistics are generally meaningless as they can be manipulated so easily, most of us having being doing exactly that for years. Any manager worth his salt can take a set of figures and manipulate them to support whatever case he wishes.

[slim_slag]

Well, I could equally say that Globaliser is trying to deflect attention from the main part of my post. Anyway, that's all part of the cut and thrust, eh?

Any manager worth his salt can take a set of figures and manipulate them to support whatever case he wishes.Statistics are used in an attempt to see through this. But I agree that this is going on right here and now on this thread. The question is, who is doing the real manipulation?

[10secondsurvey]

Slim Slag

It doesn't back up what you are saying.

For example, say you did a survey from many data points and found that BA was cheaper then FR by 5 quid, and you found that this was a statistically significant difference. You would say, that's important, but a statistician would not.

That is my point, and the point of the reference, statistical significance means a difference is likely to be true, but it DOES NOT MEAN IT IS AN IMPORTANT DIFFERENCE FOR DECISION MAKING PURPOSES. Or is this too high level a concept for you to grasp!

So when you talk of airline price comparisons (as you never have enough data points for a valid comparison) it is completely meaningless for you to talk of statistical significance.

But I guess you'll just carry on denying reality, and talking about statistical significance when it is completely irrelevant.

[slim_slag]

For example, say you did a survey from many data points and found that BA was cheaper then FR by 5 quid, and you found that this was a statistically significant difference. You would say, that's important, but a statistician would not.Nope you are wrong. I would not say the difference was important, I would simply say the difference was there and use p to attempt to say how significant that different was. I would leave the level of 'importance' to the consumer.

Globaliser and I have been having this joust for many months now and you are late to the party. Globaliser (and others) often say things like 'Ryanair fares are the same as BA fares'. That is their null hypothesis. The way to decide whether that is true is using statistics and a large sample of data, not a single trip. The absolute value that people mention is irrelevant, what matters is the value of p, and in all these months I haven't actually worked that out. When people don't understand modes and medians, what is the point of introducing "p" ???

There are others on here who understand statistics far better than me and would analyse the data even further. For me though, modes and medians are enough, even p is complicating matters (but you really need to do this to answer Globaliser's claim).

[10secondsurvey]

As you raised the issue (and yes I have read all the threads) on an open forum, I had not realised it was a private discussion between you and Globaliser. Many apologies.

[James 1077]

Good dont use em I would hate you to take up 1 of the millions of free seats that they are giving away.:E
Before you say it I know they are not totaly free the tax still has to be payed

The seats are by no means free even after tax is taken into account - or are Ryanair waiving the charges that they pretend are tax for these seats?

And no I am not a Ryanair hater - in fact I am flying them to DUB at the end of this month and have flown them to Bratislava recently as well.

[daz211]

So what + or - they are fu:mad: ing cheap

Let's try and make a more adult contribution to the debate than this please

[Globaliser]

Globaliser (and others) often say things like 'Ryanair fares are the same as BA fares'.No, this is an overstatement.

The point that I have been making, over and over again, is that when I price BA, EZY and RYR on routes that they compete on for the purpose of trying to put together a real trip for myself (+ partner + friends, as appropriate), BA is very often not much more expensive than the others. Occasionally, it's even cheaper - but I don't seek to claim that this is often the case.

And when I say "not much more expensive", I mean that the price difference is unimportant, if that will get us out of a semantic argument about the meaning of the word "significant" in this context. The margins are often as in this example: £10 or £20. The last time we looked at this issue, it was about £40 (IIRC it was the difference between about £140 and £180, for a rather shorter-notice booking).

My point is (and I think always has been)that when real people book real trips, many of them will find that they are not saving very much by going to EZY and RYR. And individuals may personally feel that the extra money is worth paying for the difference in product.

There are times when the difference is significant. Last time, I think we found a price difference of £140 for some flight. That would make me think. But normally, the difference is small enough to be worth paying. And all the week-long statistics in the world cannot displace the numbers found when someone tries to price an actual trip.

[Globaliser]

Good dont use em I would hate you to take up 1 of the millions of free seats that they are giving away.:E RYR can offer me as many free seats as they like for lunchtime flights on Tuesdays and Wednesdays, and they will still be as useless and irrelevant to me as the flights that they operated last week.

[flybywire]

Sorry FBW !

Of course I was trying to illustrate that some airlines (real ones) operate a wide range of equipment reflecting their ability to provide a global product.

I have nothing against the puddle hopper, the most popular aircraft in the world I believe.

SXB I was just joking....the 737, from a cabin crew point of view, is like a toy (especially compared to the likes of the 777 and other big jets). And from a flight crew point of view is just a workhorse, and not very responsive (at least this is Mr FBW's opinion)
It's just so simple, and not the most comfortable of planes to operate as crew/fly as a passenger.

If you add that to the fact that the longest flight we do is 4hrs, what do you have? A Paddle hopper ;) :E

[daz211]

Ryanair and BA seem to be like 2 peas in a pod !

this story from the news


My daughter, who's studying at INSEAD, Fountainbleau, flew from Jakarta back to Paris last week after traveling around and having a short vacation back home in Jakarta.

On Aug. 28, she took a flight from Jakarta to Singapore with Singapore Airlines, arriving at Changi Airport at around 7:50 p.m. She then boarded British Airways flight BA 0016 at 11:25 p.m. from Singapore to London. She arrived at London's Heathrow airport on Aug. 29 at 5:55 a.m, then transferred to flight BA 304 to Paris, which departed at 7:20 a.m. and arrived at Charles De Gaulle airport on the same day at 9:40 a.m.
After waiting for almost two hours at the baggage claim area at Terminal B (until all the BA304 baggage had been unloaded), her two big bags consisting of all her belongings were not to be seen.
She was only able to retrieve the small carry-on bag (containing only magazines and a jacket) that she checked in at Heathrow due to carry-on limitations. The two big bags had already been checked-in to the BA flight by the Changi Airport flight transit desk when she switched from SQ to BA in Singapore (also the transit time was about three hours, so they had plenty of time to do the baggage transfer).
After waiting to no avail, she talked to the BA baggage handling staff at CDG. They said the bags were possibly still in London and promised to send them to her address within one to three days (one of the staff said that baggage delay/loss has been a big problem for BA. Imagine, one of BA's own staff admitting this).
It's been more than a week now and she still has not received her bags. She tried to telephone the BA baggage handling staff at the CDG airport several times, but the line was never picked up. She tried tracking the status of her baggage online as advised by the staff, but the system kept showing that it was still tracing her bags, and was still unable to locate the bags. She tried calling BA customer relations in France. At first, they said their department does not handle calls related to baggage mishandling/loss, and also that the staff at the airport are too busy sorting out delayed/mishandled/lost baggage to pick up the telephone there. I want to know what exactly has happened to my daughter's baggage.

[Cyrano]

Silly me, I thought this thread was about Ryanair rather than interline baggage transfer in SIN and LHR.

Daz211: I understand from past postings that you are a big fan of Ryanair. I have no problem with that.

But what is the relevance of reposting third-hand a tale about lost intercontinental transfer baggage (and poor BA lost-baggage service)?

From the sound of it, BA France have been very unresponsive, and I can't defend that - although they are hardly unique in this. But what point are you trying to make? That this passenger should have flown Ryanair from Jakarta to Paris? :rolleyes: That BA are the AntiChrist? :confused:

[daz211]

Read the first thread then read the others that follow
you will see what my point is

:ugh:
reason !
I was pointing out key facts in red
A lost bag is a lost bag to a pax no mater if I flew from PIK-STN
or SIN-YYY-YYY-LHR its is still a bag that is needed
lack of customer care has been pointed at RYR and im just pointing
out that people on here saying what do you expect from RYANAIR
you should fly with a REAL airline are wrong to say RYR are not a real airline and can not be liked to BA well my point is they can

[SXB]

Daz
A lost bag on a multiairline, multisector intercontinental trip, encompassing two of the largest airports in the world, cannot be compared with having to wait 1hour 40minutes for your baggage after getting off a puddle hopper flying point to point with an airline with a proven track record of not giving a damn about its customers.

[Cyrano]

A lost bag is a lost bag to a pax no mater if I flew from PIK-STN or SIN-YYY-YYY-LHR its is still a bag that is needed

No argument there. The logistics of getting it from A to B in the latter case are rather more complex - indeed, the chances of something going wrong (whether with the passenger arriving on time or the baggage arriving with them) clearly climb with every connection - but you're right that the passenger needs it.

But do I understand correctly that you're also suggesting that standards of customer care are basically equivalent between Ryanair and BA?

[daz211]

no what I am saying is that all airline inc those some people call real
have good staff and not so good staff and it all depends on what
kind of day they are having our what kind of pax they have just been
dealing with many people have had very good customer service from
ryanair including myself I have also had very bad customer service from
so called real airlines

and my point is people in glass houses should'nt through stones !
and from my thread you replied to pot and kettle