Pilot-drain - The new aviation crisis

[niceneasy]

Carmel Egan
August 27, 2006

AUSTRALIA faces a looming aviation crisis because it is not training enough pilots to replace retirees and experienced pilots who are lured overseas by better pay and conditions.

Small operators say the shortage of trainees and qualified pilots has already started to bite on rural and regional services and will soon affect larger carriers.

The Royal Flying Doctor Service, aerial ambulance and emergency medical services, fire-fighting, Coastwatch and agricultural operators are already struggling to find or retain qualified pilots, according to the Aircraft Operators and Pilots Association.

The essential services have to compete with the pay, conditions and career opportunities offered to young pilots by overseas operators, particularly small Asian-based airlines, according to the association.

A growing demand for pilots across the Asia-Pacific region, particularly in China and India, is behind the shortage.

Aircraft manufacturer Boeing predicts that 89 per cent of all new aircraft deliveries will be to the Asia-Pacific region over the next 20 years.

Boeing's 2005 market outlook estimated that 102,000 new pilots would be needed to support those aircraft deliveries to China, India, Asia and Oceania up to 2024.

"The employment market for pilots has changed considerably over the last five years," said Stephen Lansell, aviation and communications manager for the Royal Flying Doctor's western operations.

"We have gone from an enormous glut to getting towards a famine," he said. "Organisations are finding they recruit people who get the experience and are then poached by another organisation by offers of the next level up."

Flight schools believe a generation of would-be Australian pilots is being discouraged from committing to courses because the flight component of training is not covered by the HECS program and can cost between $50,000 and $100,000.

Students are also being attracted to more financially rewarding professions, such as law, at the same time as airlines are moving to cut salaries of the most senior of Australia's 30,000 active commercial pilots.

But while fewer local candidates are applying for licences, thousands of international students are being turned away because of a shortage of flying instructors.

"Flying schools are poaching and squabbling over flight instructors," said Wendy Dow of TVSA flying school at Moorabbin. "What is scary is that when (instructors) get to the mid-level of their careers, they are being sucked up by major airlines to fly."

International training standards have also been changed, allowing students to be fast-tracked through new simulator-based licensing systems with minimum flying hours, in an attempt to meet the looming international shortage.

"The long-term impact in Australia is that we will start to lose our ability to supply essential aviation services," said John Lyon, a director of the Aircraft Owners and Pilots Association.

"Society takes aviation services for granted. They believe that somehow or other it is going to work. Well, it's not going to work," Mr Lyon said. "It's not just pilots. They are going to lose their infrastructure. If we don't have young blokes and girls taking up flying, where are all the agricultural pilots going to come from?

"Training pilots has always been seen as the province of an exclusive group. It is seen as a rich boys' toy. Well, it ain't. Little airplanes mean a hell of a lot.

"What we are facing is a real problem and it is getting closer and closer. I am very concerned about this," Mr Lyon said.

[The Bunglerat]

Pilot shortage?

What pilot shortage?!?

[Captain Nomad]

It's hard to believe there will ever be a shortage at the bottom end but you have got to admit there are far more opportunities out there right now than what there was at the end of 2001 (for example). It is a cyclical emplyment industry and right now it is looking very good for some of the middle order batsmen :) I have to shake my head at even some of the first job experiences I have seen...:suspect: It is almost as though some people are skipping some rungs of the old ladder altogether! Of course in a few years time it will probably be the other way round again...

[Aussie]

Sure is a heap of flight instructor jobs going! Seem to be drying out, especially at Grade 2 and above!

Id like to see Jet* and Virgin have to pay more to keep there pilots haha :}

Aussie

[Centaurus]

The reason why some pilots have gone overseas is because of the lack of jobs in Australia. Where operators such as the RFDS require such inflated high experience before considering an applicant, then no wonder they have trouble trying to attract someone to live in the outback. Why fly a Kingair or PC12 in the bush competing with millions of flies for your steak and eggs when you can go overseas and fly to exotic destinations and stay at top class hotels on a better salary and this is available with less flying experience than it takes to qualify for the RFDS.

There is a great world of flying outside of Australia where the pinnacle ambition of so many young pilots is restricted to flying ICUS in a Navajo from Thingalongjaba to Bullemakanka until a command on a C210 at Marble Bar comes up.

[404 Titan]

First of all one has to read that article very carefully before saying there will never be a pilot shortage in Australia. It’s not saying that. What it is really saying is we are experiencing a looming shortage of experienced pilots. Big difference.

Secondly there is a hidden agenda behind it.
Flight schools believe a generation of would-be Australian pilots is being discouraged from committing to courses because the flight component of training is not covered by the HECS program and can cost between $50,000 and $100,000.
They are using the looming shortage of experienced pilots as an excuse to try and get the government to fund through the HECS scheme, pilot training. With the articles information coming from AOPA Australia and a large number of flying schools being members of this organisation, it is quite obvious what is going on here. After all AOPA is lobby group.

[Bendo]

"...it is quite obvious what is going on here. After all AOPA is lobby group."

...and god bless 'em! :ok:

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Yes, and what is wrong with that? If HECS can be used to get you through law, medicine, an apprenticeship or basket-weaving, why not through a CPL? What's so special about flying? Oh, that's right, pilots actually LIKE their job, so they deserve no assistance turning professional?

[Jaguar7777]

Who wouldnt have loved to charge up flying training to HECS like a uni degree is done.

If a Doctor can do it, and even the damn Lawyers that invented AWA's, we should be able to as well. :mad:

As for the pilot shortage (if it is really as bad as the whinging now), bring it on. Refuse upfront endorsements or look elsewhere. Bought time the public subsidises the low cost operators with their airfares and not the employees. :=

My 2 bits worth.....:ok:

[404 Titan]

Ron & Edna Johns

I didn’t say there was anything wrong with it. I was just pointing out what the article was really about. It isn’t about pilot shortages. It is about getting pilot training included in the HECS scheme.

For the record though I believe it is probably in all our interest to keep the supply of pilots as tight as possible. The last thing we want is an even greater oversupply of unemployed pilots to put even greater pressure on our already pressured T&C. People should think long term at the ramifications of supply and demand on our career and not be so short sighted at the possible instant gratification we could get if flight training for a CPL was included in the HECS scheme. Until new CPL’s are limited each year by CASA (which will never happen), the high cost of training is the only thing that will keep them in check as well as the fact there are many other professions that pay considerably more than being a pilot. And yes I do think there are way too many flying schools competing for too little business. Something needs to give here as well.

[Robssupra]

I have been back in Australia for almost a year now, searching for a pilot position with any company out there, including the RFDS with no avail. Now it has gotten to the point where, again I am having to go and search overseas, which I have already had some more positive response from. With few thousand of flight hours, most on a jet, international ops. and zero response in OZ. And the funny thing about all this is that I am not the only one in this position.
:ugh: :( :ok:

Safe flying to all.

;)

[Flying Tiger]

Why?

If HECS were introduced for pilot training, it would not simply be a case of an unlimited number of trainees being government funded. Rather, it would of course be on the basis that it applies to other degrees, namely limited places.

As a result, like any other Uni course, candidates would have to COMPETE for positions available. If you were unsuccessful you would then become FULL FEE PAYING. This would reduce the total number of trainees due to two major factors:

1. At the moment trainees enter the industry blissfully unaware of whether they have what it takes for THAT airline job. No barriers to entry is what has historically created the oversupply. Under a HECS funded regime, those that failed to secure a place would themselves begin to question their own abilities to succeed in the profession before turning a prop in anger;

2. Even if not discouraged by 1 above, "full fee paying trainees" would compare themselves to the goverment funded candidates and many would baulk at having to pay many times the cost. In reality costs would be exactly what they would pay now, but only perceptions count and the comparison would deter them.

So, IMHO, AOPA's lobbying is short sighted and doesn't take into account what the end result of HECS funded training would be - namely far less pilots entering the profession. I say bring it on and fund it with HECS. The greater the pilot shortage the better. It would absolutely gut the flying training industry. But from AOPA's perspective, be careful what you ask for...

[neville_nobody]

In reality AOPA should be lobbying CASA to change the entry requirements to airlines. The reason people are getting jobs overseas is because they CAN!!! They don't have insanely highly MINIMUM requirements. People in Europe are walking out of flying schools straight into Jets. While I think that is probably not the safest option, there has to be a happy medium between that and what we have here which is quite frankly insane. People all round the world can safely fly big aircraft without 500 hours on a busted arse piston twin.
Similarly insurance companies need to come to party as well as they are part of the problem especially for GA operations. You might also want to ask the RFDS why they have a multi requirement when they operate single engine aircraft??

The other consideration is the amount of money that is invested in aviation
License cost say 60K + Larger Twin Endo 2.5K + Turboprop 10K + Jet 35K
There's 107 000 dollars and 8 - 10 years of your life just to get into Jetstar. Not to mention all the associated stuffing around and pressure on your personal life etc. Until you get into a Major airline you probably won't see a salary over $55 000 if you are lucky.

[Centaurus]

Young people want to be pilots because the view from the cockpit is the best in the world. Rarely have I met students in other professions with such a compelling love for their job. Look at it this way. A student pilot sits in the classroom and studies elementary aerody then with sunnies on like Tom Cruise and headset swinging in the breeze, he swaggers to his Cessna and follows the theory lesson with an hour in the air doing the vicarious Biggles thing and master of all he surveys from 3000 ft in the training area. It is quite a turn on and any pilot who is honest with himself will admit they love the job because of the view from the cockpit.

Another student decided he loves animals and wants to be a veterinary surgeon. He does some ground theory at University and his first practical lesson starts when he swaggers to a farm with his stethoscope swinging in the breeze, pink rubber gloves dangling from his overalls, and then sticks his hand up a brown cow's arse, for the love of one day being a real vet. Like I said, it is whatever turns you on!

Which is why there will never be a real shortage of students wanting to learn to fly.

[404 Titan]

neville_nobody

The requirements in Australia are a direct result of supply and demand for new pilots, insurance and client requirements. It has quite often been said you can shake a tree in Australia and a dozen pilots will fall out of it. This is vastly different to Europe where there is hardly any GA to speak of and the exorbitant prices to learn to fly there mean at times the demand for new pilots out strips supply. To say that Australia needs to catch up with the rest of the world is a little naïve. Australia will dance to its own tune based on the market forces at play there, just as Europe will because of the market forces there. You are trying to compare apples with oranges.

[Capn Bloggs]

RFDS why they have a multi requirement when they operate single engine aircraft??

Pretty obviously because there is no equivalent Hiperf S/E turboprop like theirs elsewhere in Oz, but there's plenty of what is basically the same ype of op, albeit in twin turboporps, which is the type of experience they want. I don't see many commercial PC-12s around here part from RFDS...

[otto the grot]

The RFDS want multi time because they operate multi engine a/c. Go figure. The only section of the RFDS that is solely s/e is the central section.

What is happening here and what we are seeing in the aeromed world is a pool of reasonably experienced pilots drying up very quickly. The likes of Pearl, RFDS, Air ambulance etc are dropping there entry criteria where possible BUT, what that translates into is new pilots taking a lot longer to check to line. In some cases, many months as oposed to 3 or 4 weeks.

This is the reality at the moment and it will only get worse.

[tinpis]

Beware of anyone in the cockpit with a pair of pink rubber gloves :uhoh:

[Over and gout]

The greater the pilot shortage the better. ...


I completely agree.

[air med]

I beliieve that I was once told by friends in RFDS West Ops that their aviation and Comms manager, told them there a heaps of experenced pilots out there, that is why they didnt get much of a pay rise, well how the wheel turns.

[Aussie]

I beliieve that I was once told by friends in RFDS West Ops that their aviation and Comms manager, told them there a heaps of experenced pilots out there, that is why they didnt get much of a pay rise, well how the wheel turns.


Still doubt they will get a pay rise though :confused:

Aussie

[swh]

I agree with the sentiments of the article, last year saw a record in terms of new aircraft orders, over 20,000 pilots alone will be required to crew those aircraft.

The order last year saw a large demand from India, where I understand that the domestic civil pilot training capability is less than 200 pilots a year. The situation in Australia is by no means as grave as India.

One of the reasons I see the drain for pilots overseas has a lot to do with QF HR. The way they stuff people around in the interview process, hold files etc is demoralizing, and in my view unethical. They have been interviewing people for months now knowing no courses are coming up, this is at the expense of the applicant.

I understand that they have not hired a pilot for some time, however they are still testing and interviewing many applicants when there is not real course date.

QF need to rapidly change its recruitment process to recruit only from its subsidiary airlines, make cadets fly with the subsidiary airlines, and everyone on the same level playing field in terms of seniority.

Where operators such as the RFDS require such inflated high experience before considering an applicant, then no wonder they have trouble trying to attract someone to live in the outback. Why fly a Kingair or PC12 in the bush competing with millions of flies for your steak and eggs when you can go overseas and fly to exotic destinations and stay at top class hotels on a better salary and this is available with less flying experience than it takes to qualify for the RFDS.

In my view RFDS requirements correctly reflect the experience levels needed in order to pass the training and to do the job. I remember 4 new applicants did not pass their training in one year in the section I was in.

RFDS is an all or nothing operation, the nature of the work is that you can be thrown into a large mixture of flying on any one day.

I loved my time at the RFDS, the best organisation I have EVER worked for, I felt like I contributed to the community, and those personal rewards I cannot put a price tag on.

We were lucky with the chief pilot and C&T team that we had. In terms of standards, ability, and personal qualities, you would have to look long and hard to better elsewhere.

Everyone has different career goals, for many the RFDS is their goal, and are very happy with it. Money or a big flash widebody is not everyone’s goal, it does not interest many, and does not provide the same sort of job satisfaction.

I beliieve that I was once told by friends in RFDS West Ops that their aviation and Comms manager, told them there a heaps of experenced pilots out there, that is why they didnt get much of a pay rise, well how the wheel turns.

Yes sounds like Steve, however to be fair, he is a manager and had to also look after the organisations interest. If he had funding for airline style wages for his crew, they would pay them, you cannot pump unlimited funds from a fairly dry well.

EBA negotiations are a game, a game where the employees are not holding the upper hand.

Good luck next round.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Another factor is that RAAF pay seems to be finally overtaking what is on offer at airlines such as JetStar.
PAF can probably confirm this but sources say that a six year Flight Lieutenant is now on around 105k per year with another pay rise, significantly more than CPI, on the way.
This means that a change of job into the right seat of a Jetstar 787, on the package negotiated by the ....erudite... JPC, is now a significant pay drop even if you discount the 30k they will charge you for the endorsement.
Jobs at Qantas will also look a lot less attractive. Word is that the S/O briefing this week will reveal that new-hire S/O's will be on an AWA. QF is also asking CASA to approve dual endorsements for the A380/A330 for these pilots. What is the rate they will be paid for this flexibility? A330 rates.
All this means is that Qantas/ J* will less and less be the airlines of choice for anyone leaving the RAAF. They will be looking to take their skills elsewhere.

[getmeoutovga]

Gee what a surprise someone from a flying school (good ole Wendy Dow) spouting of about a pilot shortage :suspect: I suppose she was also telling everyone about the glut of pilots a few years back??? Anway its the same ol drival she has like many flying schools spout....yawn.....

[Hugh Gorgen]

As mentioned a RAAF FLTLT (6 years) earns 104K + 12% pay rise over 3 years + super 18% of salary and increasing. With options to fly the A330 tanker (now called the KC-30B), the C17, 737 NG why would you leave to fly an A320 with J* on less money, working much harder and with reduced job security.

That said, with Cathay announcing the purchase of 18 777ERs and hiring heavily, offering a much better career structure and potential Australian basing, why would a qualified candidate sign an AWA with Qantas and potentially be at the whim of future Dixon changes.

The Australian aviation market is presently playing up on the desire for some pilots to return home from overseas operations. However, things are starting to tighten and potential Q and J* candidates (of quality) will now start to reject proposed conditions and move into more luctrative markets.

I just hope this bites mangement and the tide turns once again.

[Metro man]

Look around overseas, admittedly difficult and expensive if you don't have a reasonable type on your licence, but there are jobs around. Once management realise that pilots won't accept KMART money just because the job is based in Oz the pay will be more inline with what's on offer abroad.

If Virgin Blue were based in Kabul or Port Moresby their filing cabinet wouldn't be full of applications from highly suitable candidates willing to take a pay cut just to get to Brisbane.

Expand your horizon a bit, do yourself and everyone else a world of good:)

[Chimbu chuckles]

In talking to mates who are working as expats and have been offered J* contracts which they have knocked back perhaps the worm is turning...the lure of Oz is not enough for some.

But I am at a loss to understand how admitting aviation to the HECS system will help shorten the lines of unemployed pilots...I think it would lower the barriers to this career even further...which is not a good thing.

[Gnadenburg]

That said, with Cathay announcing the purchase of 18 777ERs and hiring heavily

Isn't the new Australian CX package not far removed from a Virgin Blue FO's wage?

I predicted this years ago- when VB pilots blasted on to the scene paying for their training and undercutting all and sundry. Overseas airlines would base pilots in Australia, in numbers, taking advantage of the 'race to the bottom' mentality afflicting local professionals.

It's not just a domestic thing either. Australian pilots abroad seem to be the first to break ranks, look after themselves and undercut with a short term outlook.

If you can't beat them, join them! Financially, I am just a few years away from being able to afford to fly an airliner in Oz for 40K a year. ;)

[aviationmug]

I applied to RFDS South east section.

I was told I do not meet the required experience.

I have 6000Hrs total.
2000 Multi command.
600 night.

I am now on hold for an asian job.

Better pay, 6 on/ 2 off.

[haughtney1]

Just bought my third house (my retirement plan) and I am looking into a bit of commercial property as well.............

Chimbu is right, the lure of OZ, or NZ for that matter is there, but not for a 50% pay cut:yuk:
If the part funding system is introduced, the outcome will be identical to what happened in NZ.........hundreds more low-time, no life experience, fresh out of school, wannabe airline pilots, all sold a dream with no real prospects of a job:hmm:

[DutchRoll]

That's basically correct PAF. And it sucks. Defence Super is a joke in almost every respect. None of the super is funded. Everything written on your Super statement with the exception of your own contributions is 'notional'!

What the guys above are saying though is true - RAAF salary and no frills airline wages have converged markedly. One going up. The other starting at a very low benchmark (for major airline flying). The work hours wouldn't be any better either.

[disco_air]

cant find enough pilots?

maybe stop charging for endorsements. :yuk: :yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

...disco

[Captain Sand Dune]

That's basically correct PAF. And it sucks. Defence Super is a joke in almost every respect. None of the super is funded. Everything written on your Super statement with the exception of your own contributions is 'notional'!

You didn't really think the Government would introduce MSBS because it was better for you!?:}

I contribute the bare legal minimum to MSBS and salary sacrifice into my own fund. Guess which one's doing HEAPS better?!:ok:

As someone else hinted at earlier, the phrase "pilot shortage" is quite mis-leading. "Experienced pilot shortage" is more accurate. I personally view the European/Asian trend of recruiting pilots straight out flying schools into the RHS of an RPT jet with some trepidation.

[T-bone]

I applied to RFDS South east section.

I was told I do not meet the required experience.

I have 6000Hrs total.
2000 Multi command.
600 night.

Well is there any turbine in these hours?

Having worked there myself, these hours would be more than suitable if they also included 500 turbine.

Fortunately the experience requirements are high, because the tasks that are carried out, day in, day out, by the RFDS Crews (pilot/nurse) in every section of the service, are to this day, the most demanding operations I have witnessed.

As swh saidI loved my time at the RFDS, the best organisation I have EVER worked for, I felt like I contributed to the community, and those personal rewards I cannot put a price tag on.

You better belive it. No other job has even come close. BUT...

It is all to dissapointing that current pilots do not feel this to the same extent. This is because the pay and conditions of these crews, particularly the pilots, are being eroded. That is maybe why Western Ops is having trouble securing sufficiently qualified pilots.

Let us hope these "Pilot shortages" turn some of the section's managers minds around, and improve the job security and satisfaction of jobs like the RFDS.

[A37575]

:ok:

Why all these "turbine" hours? You can hop into an Elite synthetic trainer for $120 an hour and learn how to start a Kingair engine in a few minutes. In another life the RAAF had two Viscounts based at Canberra where pilots who had only flown pistons we were checked out after 5 hours dual and those aircraft had four Rolls Royce Dart turbines. 600 flying hours later and no problems with starting and flying "turbines". In a further "other life" RAAF fighter pilots hopped straight into single seat Vampires (one turbine) and these pilots only had 250 hours!

It doesn't take an ace to fly a small turbo-prop aircraft likea Kingair or PC12. So why all the demand for hundreds of turbine hours before the RFDS will look at you?

[compressor stall]

The RFDS was my first turbine job: I loved it, and was quite sad to leave.

What was more important to the section I worked for though seemed to be night bush experience. It's experience in manoeuvering around the circuit that has a couple of flares, hills on the other side and it's darker than a proctologist's worst nightmare that can't be trained in a sim.

Different sections have different preferences and minimums no doubt dependent on the number of people applying, the experience of people applying, the beliefs of the CP for that section and the nature of the flying work in that section.

[max autobrakes]

Beware of anyone in the cockpit with a pair of pink rubber gloves :uhoh:

And long sleeve shirts.:}

[swh]

:ok:
Why all these "turbine" hours? You can hop into an Elite synthetic trainer for $120 an hour and learn how to start a Kingair engine in a few minutes. In another life the RAAF had two Viscounts based at Canberra where pilots who had only flown pistons we were checked out after 5 hours dual and those aircraft had four Rolls Royce Dart turbines. 600 flying hours later and no problems with starting and flying "turbines". In a further "other life" RAAF fighter pilots hopped straight into single seat Vampires (one turbine) and these pilots only had 250 hours!
It doesn't take an ace to fly a small turbo-prop aircraft likea Kingair or PC12. So why all the demand for hundreds of turbine hours before the RFDS will look at you?

Guess for the same reason why the RAAF would not put a 250 hr pilot with 5 hours total turbine time and instruction in a RAAF King Air to fly to a remote strip in the middle of the night with zero notice and time to flight plan through heavy icing conditions to be greeted by unknown terrain, rain, low cloud, flares and an unpaved runway to pick up the PM, trying to "see hear and avoid" RPT, charter, aerial work, and private operators while you descend OCTA, while in-flight conduct diversions to other unplanned destinations for other higher priority operational reasons, refueling the aircraft, gathering met and notam information, whilst calling the BOM on the satellite phone to get them to issue a TAF as your new unplanned destination and alternates don’t get forecasts issued late at night due to the only insane people driving around those areas being RFDS, and then having to hassle ATC again for those newly issued TAFs, do the fuel calculations as your now informed by the doctor that your new passenger must ride with a sea level cabin, not enough fuel, another diversion, here we go PAL not working again, call ATC get the local police out to turn the lights on, more fuel and still not back home yet.

That does not happen every night when working for the RFDS, but it does happen. You need to be able to step up to the plate when required, people are depending on you.

For your information the doctors and nurses that also work for the organization are some of more highly trained and experienced people in their fields, the qualification requirements and experience levels for those people in their professions would be equivalent to what they ask of pilots in their terms.

The RFDS cargo and mission is important, they want the very best candidates. If you were in need of the RFDS services one day, I am sure you would want the same.

They are a medical service, not an air force, not an airline, not a charter company, and definitely not a flying school. They are a good bunch of guys and girls working very hard to provide a medical service to regional and remote Australia.

[bushy]

When we have 21year old, 250 hour Boeing captains in our airliners, that will be the right time to put 21year old, 250 hour pilots in the RFDS aeroplanes.

The size of the aeroplane is irrelevent.

[gaunty]

bushy:ok:

And that time approaches faster than we would hope.:{

Not sure the of the current status but some time ago mate who was then an IFALPA VP was having a bit of a problem with an American country turning out sorta 500hr ATPs from their flight school almost straight into the LHS of their new and well kept Airbus types. Competentcy OK no problems :ok: All in the view of local skilling etc. Cheaper to keep the aircraft up to date than have expat pilots.
Combined cockpit experience what, maybe 1500hrs. Very strong SOPs and procedures, basic automaton stuff and an ATC system US that looks after em.

And personally I don't really have a problem with that, the electronics, SOPS and hopefully reliable modern aircraft that keep em out of trouble.

Unfortunately for the RFDS you can't write a SOP for the every day is different that would have a manual heavier than the aircraft. But there are those computer thingummys now you know.

The RFDS whether they mean to or not then set de facto standards that the rest adopt without necessarily understanding the why.

This is going to get me into trouble, but you and I know if Geoff were to give us the keys to one of his Boing aircraft and the usual flt planning resources, we could between us, make a pretty good fist of a days work anywhere. It might not be pretty but it would be reasonably workmanlike and wouldn't frighten the horses. I am not sure about an Airbus because neither of us were brought up on Xbox or Sega:E and the automatics might get us foxed for a bit. But if we did know how to use em it would be even easier.

Then we could get to say "I wonder what it's doing now" with the best of em. :p

[Captain Sand Dune]

Geez Gaunty, you'd better duck for cover now!:}

Sounds like some people don't realize that RFDS does not equal airlines when it comes to minimum experience required.

[gas-chamber]

There will always be an endless supply of pilots suitable for the RHS. Always has been, always will be, especially in an affluent society such as ours where the cost of learning to fly is no deterrant. With a decent training budget, forward planning and dedicated training staff, any competent 250 hour pilot can be brought up to acceptable F/O standard in six months. That's not to say a few years in G.A. doesn't make a better candidate - imho there is no substitute for experience and even though turbine time isn't really needed to learn the airline job, if the market can supply turbine pilots, why not make that a pre-requisite?
But, the LHS is a different matter. Whether it is a King Air on RFDS work or an A320 droning around in the easy-peasy Aussie radar environment, the public have a right to expect that the Captain has the experience and training to deal with the unexpected, to read the weather by looking at it, to assess and only accept risks within certain strict parameters etc. One day this country will have a major airline hull loss and bodies will be spread over the countryside. Many risk experts acknowledge that this is inevitable. When it happens, let us hope the root cause is not found to be that old chestnut "pilot error" or the more politically correct "lack of training" or "the pilot was confronted with a situation which was so unexpected and outside his understanding that he simply could not cope".
Having planes parked for want of crews may cause managements some short term financial pain and in some ways it serves them right. Better that than to have planes crewed by hastily recruited and low cost incompetents, because once that crash does occur all the penny pinching that caused the pilot shortage in the first place will be nothing compared to the loss of revenue or possible bankruptcy resultant from the crash. I believe that Aussie airline managements have become too complacent and really don't think about what will happen if their airline is the first to bury an airframe. It will sure increase the share price of the opposition.
The real pilot shortage is likely to be for airline Captains but only until such time as existing First Officers get some meaningful experience and can move up. Realistically, for your 250 hour cadet or typical G.A. entrant, that takes about 5 years. Sure, most can manipulate the airplane to a good standard in 12 months, but no way they have the experience to be Captains until they have been exposed to a few years in the RHS. Therefore the current airline Captain shortage will be a temporary thing for a few years only, so those contemplating this career need to consider that fact and not let all the hype about it providing an on-going opportunity influence their choice.
The real shortage is more likely to be pilots who have what it takes to fly in places like PNG and the RFDS and who genuinely want to make a career of that type of flying. The money that these guys deserve is probably disproportionate to what those industries can or will pay. Another real area that industry should be addressing is the quantity and quality of flying instructors. There are some disturbingly inexperienced people out there passing on their inexperience.
It is aso incumbent upon CASA to monitor standards to prevent managements from taking soft-cock shortcuts with selection and training of every level of pilot from basic CPL through to airline Check Capt.

[M.25]

If there was anywhere near a pilot shortage, the RFDS would lower their minimum requirements and asses each application on a case by case basis. To not even consider an application from someone with a stack of pc12 time just because they don't have 1000hrs in a piston twin doesn't make any sense. They only state such high requirements BECAUSE THEY CAN.

[otto the grot]

The money that these guys deserve is probably disproportionate to what those industries can or will pay.

Work Choices has put the final nail in that coffin for us. What a bloke our little Johnie is.

[Barberspole-5]

[QUOTE

"What is scary is that when (instructors) get to the mid-level of their careers, they are being sucked up by major airlines to fly."[/QUOTE]

Whats scary is that flight instructors would get payed more working in an asian sweatshop, than working for shonks like the aforementioned flying school. :} :}

[grip-pipe]

After a life time in this industry can only think of one response to this ' BOLLOCKS'

[Shagtastic]

Away from the deadman shoes environment in Australia you'd be interested to see the requirements currently facing airlines in Europe.

easyjet are looking for 630 pilots, Ryanair 500 pilots, BA perhaps 400 or more, Emirates..anyones guess, those A380's/B777's won't fly themselves (last time I looked!), so in the not too distant future these European companies may offer licence validations and visa sopnsorships.

Shags

[Captain Sand Dune]

If there was anywhere near a pilot shortage, the RFDS would lower their minimum requirements and asses each application on a case by case basis. To not even consider an application from someone with a stack of pc12 time just because they don't have 1000hrs in a piston twin doesn't make any sense. They only state such high requirements BECAUSE THEY CAN.

About 5 years ago I ws offerred an RFDS job in Derby. At the time I did not have all the stated minimum requirements. However I reckon they were willing to take me on based on the strength of my PC9 time. My point being yes, the RFDS does have quite stringent entry minimima (and for good reason, I believe), but they will also assess each applicant on their merits.
As much as I would have loved to have accepted the offer, I had to refuse - a wife and three boys aint cheap to run!

[A37575]

In all seriousness. RFDS flying appears to be considered the creme de la creme in GA circles. But maybe I am way off base, but isn't most of that flying a regular A to B on scheduled services? The black and stormy night medical rescue into dusty strips with the head-lights of cars illuminating the scrub or burning toilet rolls as flares. No aids except a GPS and worse still only one pilot who has to navigate over featureless sand dunes unseen below - a hero who really earns his $40K a year to rescue a snake bitten poor bastard covered in dirty big angry ants.

How many times a month/year would the intrepid RFDS pilot actually be forced into this situation?

[swh]

How many times a month/year would the intrepid RFDS pilot actually be forced into this situation?

Could be three times in a day, or once a year. People do not schedule when or where the fall ill, or the circumstances or the time of day. Nor do they do it to coincide with a particular pilots roster.

On occasions like motor vehicle accidents, a number of aircraft or trips maybe needed to one site alone.

Different sections do their aviation parts slightly differently, some use charter aircraft for "clinic" runs, taking nurses, doctors and dentists on schedule appointments, others use their own equipment.

Hospital transfers or emergency work is not done on a "schedule", however some destinations seem to attract a higher number of visits for various medical reasons.

[T-bone]

Is this just a wind-up A37575.

Unfortunately it happens more often than you might believe...and considering the technology available today it is a crying shame that the RFDS still has to land under car headlights or burning toilet rolls(my favourite). A crying shame!!

[Point0Five]

That's basically correct PAF. And it sucks. Defence Super is a joke in almost every respect. None of the super is funded. Everything written on your Super statement with the exception of your own contributions is 'notional'!

That's crap. Re-read your super statement.

[otto the grot]

How many times a month/year would the intrepid RFDS pilot actually be forced into this situation?

Not often enoughA37575 in my opinion. The more there is of these sort of jobs the more interesting and challenging it remains.

However, even though this situation may not happen that often, it does happen, and the pilots have to be capable of performing these tasks. The difficulty is that you may not have flown a black hole approach for some time and now you have to pull something out of the bag at 3 in the morning with bugger all notice.

Do we get paid enough for this? NO! RFDS pilots are definately under paid and unfortunately that will always be the case. But i think the spin being put on this pilot drain thing might put the wind up management enough to make them think a bit as opposed to the normal lack of brain wave activity that goes on in head office.

[bfisk]

I am so glad i chose to start my pilot education at this time. One year ago I was out of school, 19 years old, now I live in the US, are a FAA CPL/IR/ME + CFI/I holder, work as a flight instructor at a reputable school, expect to return to Europe in a good year with about 1500 hrs, and have the JAR fATPL witin the end of next year. Hooray! :D

[Chimbu chuckles]

So you were in school a year or so back and now have a CPL/MECIR and are an IFR Instructor (CFI/I)?

That's a real shame because if true you are not experienced enough to be doing so.

[sumtingwong]

In all seriousness. RFDS flying appears to be considered the creme de la creme in GA circles. But maybe I am way off base, but isn't most of that flying a regular A to B on scheduled services? The black and stormy night medical rescue into dusty strips with the head-lights of cars illuminating the scrub or burning toilet rolls as flares. No aids except a GPS and worse still only one pilot who has to navigate over featureless sand dunes unseen below - a hero who really earns his $40K a year to rescue a snake bitten poor bastard covered in dirty big angry ants.

How many times a month/year would the intrepid RFDS pilot actually be forced into this situation?

Correct about one thing fella; you are way off base.

Happened yesterday, Western Ops, Mt Vernon, read it in the paper if you like.

Do you still reckon $120 an hour in a synthetic trainer learning how to start a PC-12 or B200 will cut it?

[A37575]

Sumtingwong. It was a genuine query not a wind up. Once a pilot gets a job with the RFDS roughly how many hours or sectors does he fly ICUS before he is let loose on his own?

[sumtingwong]

Sumtingwong. It was a genuine query not a wind up. Once a pilot gets a job with the RFDS roughly how many hours or sectors does he fly ICUS before he is let loose on his own?

No worries, but just to be clear nor was my response meant as a shot at you, just a genuine query as to your views.

In response to your question, I'll answer it, but can I suggest that you not think of RFDS ops as sectors or scheduled flights. That is not the case. It is all airwork category. This makes sense if you think about it; it’s certainly not RPT nor is it charter or private. By its very nature it has little to do with these previously mentioned categories.

To answer your question, the number of hours you do before you are let loose are not hard and fast, I would suggest between 15 and 50 hours. This is highly dependant on your background, aptitude and temperament. I would suggest again this is due to the highly demanding and volatile nature of the work. It is not suited, nor are all suited for the work, hours and conditions that will be experienced by all RFDS pilots at some stage.

Long windedly I know; what I’m suggesting is that the nature of the work is difficult, the hours are long. This does not suit everybody. For those that make it, it is highly rewarding personally, and the support from colleagues (fellow pilots, flight nurses and co-ords) is awesome.

So can I say that the entry requirements may be high, but they need to be for many reasons. RFDS ops are not line flying. They are changeable, volatile and challenging. Hours gained flying piston twins in the bush, while alone may be considered redundant in the current climate, provide the applicant with experience in many facets that is difficult to quantify. The 'hard GA yards' if you like may be able to create a mindset that allows candidates to better cope with the reality of RFDS ops.

Look, I've crapped on but, it's a tough job, long hours, ****ty locations, seeing stuff that makes you ill, but it’s the best job I've ever had....hands down

Cheers,

[A37575]

Sumtingwong. Thanks for info. Appreciated. A good mate was knocked off in the RFDS accident at Mt Gambier a couple of years back. Hence my interest.

[Crossbleed]

are a FAA CPL/IR/ME + CFI/I holder, work as a flight instructor at a reputable school
That has gotta be bullsthwack. What on earth is going on in South Carolina?
What colour is your passport?
CFI/I = Chief Flight Instructor / Instrument??
I reckon he's drunk.:ok:

[Chimbu chuckles]

In the US CFI stands for Certified Flying Instructor or some such not Chief Flying Instructor...I still think he's dreaming though.

[aviationmug]

Here is a quote I found on another thread. Its about Hong kong express and there hiring needs etc;

"The hiring process has not finished ! It is an ongoing process.
The trouble is that the quantity of applications that are received, either by the online system or snail mail, is massive. As there is no pressing immediate need for crew, man hours are being used elsewhere.
Medwin, it may be the case that yours has somehow "slipped through to the keeper". Although there is around 50 guys on file with 145 experience."



It's true to say that some recruitment firms find it hard to find Captains and F/O's with good hrs on type,
but there will, and always will be way too many Pilots out there competing for charter/regional/airline jobs.

At our local company in Australia, with 18 turboprop and piston twins on line, we can still pick and choose who we want.

:ok:

[Crossbleed]

It's true to say that some recruitment firms find it hard to find Captains and F/O's with good hrs on type,
but there will, and always will be way too many Pilots out there competing for charter/regional/airline jobs.

At our local company in Australia, with 18 turboprop and piston twins on line, we can still pick and choose who we want.


In the first instance the statement doesn't ring true, I mean on the 145 type? I wouldn't really know, although the the demise of Crossair might explain the first bit, but the rest??
Charter/Regional/Airline All in the same bag?
And the second paragraph is hard to decipher too. Aviationmug, this was written by a recruitment company looking to fill slots in HK right?
Who are they?:sad:

[air med]

A37575
At the RFDS we do ICUS until we are cleared to line.This could take 10 flights it couls take alittle longer.Have alook at the news on Friday with the accident in WA, the crew there responded with in a hour of the Co Ords getting the call.
Airstio there not the greatest, hills tio either side of the strip. The pilot who has just join the company did a great job, they were the first to arrive and the pilot had to make sure everything wa safe be fore the medico could go to the aircraft.
Long time on the ground, flight nurse did a fantastic job setting a make shift triage, the crash sire was about 1.5km from the strip in dense growth.
The reason why this all went well is first good experience from the pilot, came from a good background and had done the hard yards before he got the gig with the rfds, the flight nurse before she joined the service had done 5 yrs of outback nursing, the doctor had just finished, i higher level of emergency training.The patients that had to be carried back to Perth were all given the best treatment on board the aircraft during the flight back to perth, they were then escorted to the hospitial by the doctor and the nurse,making sure that they would be given the best treatment at the hospitial. We do this day to day, it might not happened every day and thank god it doesnt, but it is bloody good to know that the crew will respond to anything and use all their professionalism to make the job done.
What I would like to Say to the Meekatharra crew and the Co-ords at Jandakot bloody good job, well done.
I think all rfds and ex rfds that read this will agree right SWH????
As with the black holes of a night time, they are just part of the job, they happen all the time

[swh]

I think all rfds and ex rfds that read this will agree right SWH????

I would agree, best bunch of people I have ever worked with, great personal rewards. Very dedicated and professional employees working together as a team towards the best outcome for their passengers in need.

[bfisk]

That has gotta be bullsthwack. What on earth is going on in South Carolina?
What colour is your passport?
CFI/I = Chief Flight Instructor / Instrument??
I reckon he's drunk.:ok:

I'm sorry you feel this way.

Ever since I was a kid I always had one dream; to become an airline pilot. When I graduated from school in my home country; I saw two options. Going the safe and proven route via some earth-based government-paid education; becoming an engineer or something. Or, I could start pursuing my dream of flying. Never having lived away from home before, the move across one ocean and six time zones gives one some perspective. Started flying and I was fortunate enough to work with some very talented instructors, as well as some less interesting ones. Going from ab-initio to CPL/IR/SE/ME and CFI (Certified Flight Instuctor, not chief or anything) and CFI-Instruments in 10,5 months is absolutely possible with will and determination. And even in between there was time for some socializing. Got hired two days after last checkride, and some three weeks after I have a little over 25 hrs dual given instruction.

Don't get me wrong; I don't think I'm an experienced pilot, the world champion in flying or anything. I'm only in love with the sky, and when faced with the go/no-go decision to start on my education at the age of 19, when the alternative was to remain on the ground, the answer was pretty obvious. I'm sure someone will argue that a now 20-year old CFI with a total time of just over 300 has nothing to do in the sky with students; that's fine. However everyone has to start from somewhere, and select their own pace. I chose to start now, and I chose 100% dedication. And maybe we'll see in ten year's time if I'm driving the Airbus or the Schoolbus. I have the time ahead of me, and we'll see what tomorrow brings.

And no, I'm not drunk, and my passport is red :)

[bushy]

You have elected to do the work, you have the right attitude, and a realistic long term outlook. If you give the employers a fair return for their money, then you will go far.

Iwish you well.

[tinpis]

Hear hear:D

[Chris Higgins]

There is nothing about bfisk's story that could not have been repeated in Australia.

[neville_nobody]

Well I can think of about 80 000 reasons why I couldn't do that at 19

[Crossbleed]

I'm only in love with the sky:8
Aww shucks, you got a purdy mouth. Never wanted to be a fighter pilot??:E
Just jokes old boy, all power to ya.;)

[rcoight]

I don't think anyone would argue the need for high entry requirements for the RFDS, but I don't follow how the original poster's 6000 hours, 2000 multi etc., is not good enough, because it doesn't include (does it?) a certain amount of turbine time...
So, if he had say, 3000 hours, but 500 of it was in turbine aircraft, he'd be ok?? :confused:
Please explain.

[Much Ado]

When has hours in the logbook been the ONLY arbiter of success?

[bushy]

The RFDS operates out of some capital city bases these days, and have reasonable facilities to come home to. However many of the bases are not in capital cities, and have lesser facilities to came home to. Most of the destinations have dirt airstraips, no vhf coms, no navaids, no fuel, and portable lighting. (if any)
Logbook hours are an indicator, and are necessary, but OUTBACK BUSH EXPERIENCE is necessary, as well as local knowledge.
They need sone one who knows if it is safe to land on that airstrip after 20 mils of rain?? Ersa won't tell you, and you cannot risk the aeroplane and crew unless you know. There is not enough of anything now. A bogged aircraft is no use to anyone. And you will not make any freinds by unnecessarily aborting the flight.
They need someone who knows do do a right hand circuit at this location at night, because there is a big, unlighted hill there, and even if you do you will have a tailwind component on base and that invisible hill is waiting for you to overshoot the centreline when you turn on to final.
And Wallabies looking at you as you taxi back after your first light landing at a strip that does not have lighting.
And lots of other things.

The apprenticeship for this job needs to include a year or so in Mulga Bill's 172, and lots of charter type flying in the area.

Lots of flying up and down the coast in shiny aeroplanes is not enough.
This is a vocation requiring long term committment and dedication.

[confirm-finals?]

You will find the term EXPERIENCED pilots...not 150 hour fresh CPL's!

You want to work in Asia? You need JET TIME! Look at the requirments for most airlines in Asia. Turbo prop time helps but you seem to need a LOT more of it!

JET TIME = Experience

1000 hours instructional teaching straight and level or climbing and descending does not count as the above...:=

[Shot Nancy]

confirm-finals?
So the old Catch22 eh? Can't get a jet job because of no jet experience.
Re Asia: I am led to believe that Dragonair has some turbo-prop boys starting soon to be 747-400F Fos.

[Crossbleed]

Dragonair 74 F/O's could be /is a thorny issue. But that isn't the sort of experience Bushy is referrring to. Flying a big jet is a very-well supported (usually), very safe and if the operator is worth his salt, a totally comfortable environment in which to ply your trade. Many guys in that part of the industry couldn't/wouldn't be RFDS capable. The single pilot, multi, IFR, plan-as-you-go type operation has to be some of the hardest **** any of us will ever do. PNG, Africa, Drug-running and others too.
Experience is not measured in a log-book exclusively. (Hours, I mean), And jet-time is a bitch to get and almost impossible to get without some. T'was ever thus.
My advise? Hang around bars frequented by management pilots with a lerv of booze and broads. (half-joking)
The best job I ever had only cost me a bottle of Bacardi. Tru Wontok !!!;)

[Capt Wally]

............in defence to the RFDS their entry requirements are there for very good reasons. The aeromedical flying in Oz esspecially at the S.E Section (which operate only B200's) require , at times quite demanding efforts to complete a task. It is regarded by many that single pilot multi-eng turbo prop in the aero medical role is considered the most demading of any flight requirements. Sure there are many times that it's fair weather flying into paved runways with the sun shinning brightly & everything is humming along..........but & this is where this sorts the men from the boys out there.
This is a typcal Eg...........at night, CB's at every corner or the radar screen, turbulence like you wouldn't believe, rain pelting down with incredible intensity, more ice on the airframe than what used to be in Dean Martins booze.......sometimes HF radio comms only (marginal at the best of times) PAL lighting way out west where the surounding image seems like it's been painted onto a blackboard that's moving around like a jack rabbit toy at an ammusment park with only an NDB approach available (if yr lucky otherwise is was only a visual approach) to the happless pilot with a x wind that feels like it's out there to get you, ..............oh by the way to add a little more spice to that scenario above the pilot could very well have been asleep & required to be flight ready within half an hr of a phone call!!!!..........try being awoken up in the middle of the night, flight planning (with an alternate that at times is interstate only) to a small country strip with a full medical team onboard & on yr own (pilot wise) handling a 5.6 tonne plane with the added pressure that somebody out there needs urgent medical assistance.........yeah sure a lot of pilots could do the task as described but most go fly (therefor leaving the RFDS short of suitable applicants) a far more 'known' job with assitance at every corner called RPT with less entry experience, RPT, what I would call "Realitve Passive Transport" !

Flying careers in OZ are & will for the forseeable future I believe be available in one form or another, but like all things in life, someobody out there believes there's always a better way to build a mouse trap as in with less resources & therefor moves the goal posts to create a new playing field!:-)

capt wally:-)

[Scooter Rassmussin]

The RFDS boys should be rewarded accordingly, obviously they are not and that is why the shortage......

[bushy]

I would be VERY surprised if there is a shortage of applicants for the RFDS jobs.
I can remember (a long time ago) when there were 175 on the list for Central Section. There are probably less hours in the logbooks of the wannabies now, but Iwould be very surprised if there are not some experienced bush pilots there.
They are generally rewarded better than the average GA pilot (and better than the award), but much, much less than ANY airline pilot, and generally the rosters are chaotic.(due to insufficient staff.)

[Capt Wally]

.........there is no actual shortage of applicants to the RFDS...........just a shortage of ones that they find suitable !
The RFDS are at times caught between a rock & a hard place when it comes to filling pilots postions. Some applicants are simply not experienced enough as per my other detailed typical scenario post amongst these pages but others are in some ways way over qualified (if that's possible) mainly due to the fact that their are numerous multi crew drivers out there that seek employment with the RFDS for one reason or another (pilots dispute had 'em looking in their hunderds at the RFDS)...............sure they where no doubt once excellent single pilot guys but have long since perhaps lost that thinking egde & now almost require help from the other seat.
Bushy yr right they (as in RFDS drivers) are rewarded in monetary terms better than GA in general & the rostering can be all over the place............but it's not about money in that business at the end of the day it's about careing, getting the job done the best way possible & helping others in need, RFDS is or can be a career making/having a real difference..........the "rewards" are but secondary 'cause we all love flying right?:)

Capt Wally

[air med]

Bushy.
Like you I would have been a surprise if there were not many applicants lining up for a RFDS gig, but sadly it is true.
I know for a fact that one RFDS base put an ad out a few weeks ago and only got 2 replies, did the same thing then next week and got none.
Wally hit the nail on the head, they are taking single engine time guys with low multi time, outback and remote experience is low, but are prepared to work with and help the new one's out. The thing that does make us angry is that, having a doctor in the back and a nurse reading a book on along night home and the wage bill for the 2 of them is 300,000, yet the poor guy up the front is just getting 52-55000. You would think with a country in high boom, that all RFDS bases, start hitting the goverment for more money to get extra equipment, able for bases to put on more pilots and staff, but no, they have to scrap the bottom of the barrell to make ends meet.
Old john Flynn wouls be turning in his grave.
Wally you were on the money, it is a great gig and great work, thats why we do it.
Happy flying to all

[neville_nobody]

Why would they need to take low time guys when there are plenty of guys flying single engine turbines around these days in remote areas, namely Cairns, Torres Straight and (until recently) Alice Springs ? I was of the understanding that they still wanted the "magical" 500 Multi Engine Command which is becoming harder to come by as the years go on.

[A37575]

Hey, Wally old chap. You make it sound like only hairy chested he-men with red dust on their thongs can qualify for an interview with the RFDS. Ever tried flying a 737 into black night Pacific atolls? I tell you what, there wasn't the Superman image with those pilots that you project for RFDS pilots. Yet their skills were good. Wasn't it only a few months back on Pprune that mentioned mentioned wryly that the dam-buster pilot Wing Commander Guy Gibson VC, DSO, DFC who spent most of his young pilot career getting shot at, would not qualify for even a 210 job in Australia because of lack of remote area experience. He was also too young at age 24 to qualify because he only had 800 hours. Puts the RFDS nonsense in perspective doesn't it?

If the RFDS bothered to train pilots for the job rather than bitching about how short they are of pilots, then you would likely get some good applicants.

[Bendo]

Can someone explain this?

General RFDS experience minimums as published on their website:

Australian commercial pilots licence.
Current command instrument rating (multi-engine) with two renewals.
2000 hours as pilot-in-command.
1000 hours as pilot-in-command of a multi-engined aircraft.
200 hours night operations as pilot-in-command.
Pilots with turbo-prop experience preferred.

As published on the SE section website:

Total Command Time - 3000 hours minimum
Total Night Hours - 500 hours minimum
Total Multi engine command - 500 hours minimum
Instrument Flight Time - 500 hours minimum
No. of Instrument rating renewals - 5

I have been flying in the same region as all the "Mike Victa" aircraft for about 10 years and Kimberley before that. I know where I would rather live for lifestyle alone - is this the reason for the higher minima? :ugh:

[alky]

High and seemingly rediculous requirements placed on applicants are generally due to the limits placed on the RFDS by the commercial contracts it enters into. The only thing the service can do is apply for an exemption to relax the limiting requirement on a one off basis. Otherwise, its' hands are tied.

[Jet_A_Knight]

Bendo, I believe that the SE Section minimums are related to requirements regarding the NSW Ambulance contract.

[Captain Sand Dune]

Thread hijack!!

Question for RFDS pilots that may be involved with recruiting; what is the maximum age limit for RFDS applicants?

[bushy]

Has anyone stopped to wonder why the contracts require a certain number of hours.

3000 is not a lot of hours.

GA is now flooded with young pilots who want to get 500 twin in the first year and get out.

[MBA747]

Can you blame those who want to get out after 500 hours twin. If employers treated them fairly, paid the award rate and cut out the varbal abuse perhaps the younger pilots would stay on. Why should a young pilot who perhaps is a lot better educated than his employer, who has invested over 70K in training have to put up with the abuse of the tradesman type employer.

Hopefully you treat your staff better.

[Captain Nomad]

I was led to believe that the inflated SE section requirements were due to the internal Sydney basing requirements being blanketed over the whole section a number of years ago?

[bushy]

MBA747
No, I would not blame a young pilot for leaving if he was unfairly treated, verbally abused, and paid less than the award. I would expect him to do so.

If he was "much better educated than his employer" I would have to wonder why he did not do some research about job prospects before he started, and why he took such a job.

I would consider him to be a well educated fool.

Do you know anyone like this?

[Chimbu chuckles]

Lets define 'better educated' as it might apply to a 20 yr old:hmm:

Education doesn't end at HSC....in fact one might be so bold as to add that it has just started at that point:ugh:

[Capt Wally]

......................A37575......just for the record seeing as yr comments might be heading in a personal way as in attacking an individual (sadly) yes I have as a matter of fact flown into a Pacific attol/s on a very black night in shocking blinding rain after transiting the Pacific with the bare minimum of fuel & with a medical team aboard all the time wondering whether we are simply going to make it !!!..........oh & just for the record I wasn't in a B737 where you have assistance beyond yr Coey I was in a aeromedical LR35 sometimes cramped in there for up to four hrs & often with a 'green' coey who was experiencing at the time a very steep learning curve as we all are under such arduous conditions. So no, no 'he man' with a hairy chest (just checked, ok so I have a hairy chest:) ):-)

So to finish off some other comments here the RFDS often require high experience levels purely for contract reasons as others have stated amongst these pages but I still believe that the high hrs requirements are there for very good reasons. I don't need to explain here further I don't make the rules I like all else here have to abide by them.

Capt wally:-)

p.s............The age limit in the Sth Eastern Section (as asked by someone else here) isn't specificly stated or enforced mainly due for discrimination reasons. So fly on after 60 if yr made of the right stuff