Passed 13 out of 14 ATPL's can I start my flying?

[scameron77]

Hi All,

I found out this morning I failed one of the 14 exams but as the CAA are infinetly wise beyond belief I have to wait until October to sit the resit. This is becuase the cut off date for the September exams was last Monday. :ugh:

The dilemma I now find myself in is that I am due to start my conversion from a FAA CPL/IR to JAA next month. I phoned them to tell them the news and they told me that I couldn't start. Is that the case?

Essentially I just want to clarify if (as I've been led to believe by a friend) that I can start the CPL/IR conversion without holding a pass (but having sat) in all 14. Is there anything in the rules thats says this is the case?

And I did a search before posting this, all I could find was info on the time limits for passing exams, nothing related to the subsequent skills test. However if anyone can direct me to a relevant thread I would be obliged.

[mcgoo]

i've been looking at different cpl courses and they all state that you must have passed all 14 exams as a pre course requisite

[Mercenary Pilot]

I belive your friend is correct and there is a dispensation to start the training at the discretion of the CFI at the school. However, I dont have a reference for this. Your best bet would be to E-mail the CAA.

[scameron77]

Its a pain in the arse I know, but is there any dictates passed down form on high at the CAA/JAA that state you can't commence until you fulfill this requiement? My be a question for a Lasors nut.

But could start my IR first then, sit it and then do the remaining ATPL and then do the CPL directly afterwards?

[potkettleblack]

Anecdotal stuff I know but for what its worth I am pretty sure I heard from a mate of a mate (yeah I know:) ) that you can get stuck in and start your training so long as you have the final puppy in the bag prior to your CPL skill test. Agree it could be a matter of trawling through LASORS. I wouldn't necessarily take the CFI at face value either as what is the law and what they normally do/see can be very different. Hit that Bristol database hard for a month running up to the resit and I am willing to bet you a pint that you don't get less than 90%! Good luck.

[pipergirl]

I am almost sure you can do the CPL course, but not the skills test...
Give the CAA a call and go through LASORS properly, that's where you'll get your definitive answer

[pipergirl]

actually, just had a quick look through LASORS and it does seem that you must pass ALL 14 in order to start the course.....however, do call the CAA and double check..

Best of Luck:ok:

[flying log]

blackpots mate's mate has it right.

from LASORS:

"The holder of a PPL(A).......with at least 150 hours flight time as pilot may commence an approved JAR CPL(A) Modular Course......blah blah".

then later:

"Before undertaking the (CPL) Skill Test, the applicant shall have passed the associated theoretical knowledge examinations....blah blah".

Scameron, don't rely on someone else to do the work on the test!

[Mercenary Pilot]

I thought that was the case, I would still get it in writing from the CAA though. As has been stated alot recently LASORS isn't gospel.

[flying log]

LASORS is writing from the CAA!

[stickandrudderman]

BUT, it's NOT LAW!
Just like the highway code is not law.

[flying log]

Who mentioned law? All I said was it's written by them that make the rules.

[Mercenary Pilot]

LASORS is writing from the CAA!
Actually it’s a book published by the CAA to try and cut down the amount of calls and enquiries on basic licence and rating issues it is NOT a legal document like FAR-AIM!

It contains regulations that have yet to be implemented and it has in the past contained glaring omissions! Somewhere in JAR will be the definitive answer but most of us don’t have access to the correct documents.

scameron77

Congratulations on your exam results. Do yourself a favour and E-mail the CAA, they don’t bite and are fairly efficient with E-mail. The answer you get from them will be official.


Good luck :ok:

[scameron77]

So from the above I can sumerise the following:

You can commence your CPL/IR training while not having all the exams sat or passed however to sit the skills test you need to have them all completed.

I'm guessing most schools won't allow you to start and then either delay or have the distraction of exam(s) in the middle of your training as it would affect the recency of learning and the train of thought with respect to he flying. ie The intesity of learning isn't there.

[dartagnan]

call your school!

[scameron77]

The reason for asking the question was when I do approach the school, I want to know exactly what the letter of the law states if they get arsey about my current status. To be able to cite examples or statutes which are in my favour if they behave without flexibility.

Dartagnan: Stick to swashbuckling mon ami.

[BillieBob]

Forget LASORS! The requirements for JAA licences and ratings are contained in JAR-FCL 1 for aeroplanes and JAR-FCL 2 for helicopters. LASORS is a poorly presented and often totally incorrect interpretation of the requirements and the author should be shot at dawn!!

Having got that rant out of the way, the real requirements to commence a modular CPL(A) course, according to Appendix 1 to JAR–FCL 1.160 & 1.165(a)(4), are to hold a PPL(A) issued in accordance with ICAO Annex 1 and to have completed 150 hours flight time as a pilot. There is no requirement to have passed any of the theoretical knowledge examinations.

However, an FTO is quite within its rights to require that you have passed all of the theoretical knowledge examinations - you just need to understand that it is an FTO requirement and not a requirement of JAR-FCL.

Incidentally stickandrudderman, nothing in JAR-FCL is law, they are only requirements. The only 'law' relating to the issue of pilot licences and ratings in the UK is the ANO 2005 - at least until EASA takes over.

[paco]

If I remember rightly, you must pass all the exams before you can take the skill test, not start your training.

Phil

[mungo_55]

I started my CPL course before I got my second set of results for the ATPLs. I have to admit it was a bit nerve racking though! LASORS says you can do it, as long as you have them passed by the time you do the skill test. You want to check that the Flight school you're going to is happy to let you do it that way though.

[DesiPilot]

Well, seems like you have already called your school. Just ask them one more time what their Training Manual says about it.

You are not required to have passed all the exams before you start your CPL training but you must have passed all 14 to take the skill test. Now if the school puts in their "training manual" that the student must pass all the exams before starting the course than you must.

Also you are converting your licence from FAA CPL to JAA CPL. So I assume that your school has quoted you training as required, rather than any mandatory training. So no point starting the training now, and finished with it in a week or two and sit around to take the exams and than wait for the results till November. By the time you have the exams under your belt, you'd require additional training so I'd wait at least till you have taken your exams.

I hope this helps.

[scameron77]

Thanks to Desi and BillieBob for their input.

I am between a rock and a hard place. The one thing that galls me about the ATPL exams process is the cut of dates and times. The fact I now have to wait until the October set as the results arrived 4 days after the September cut off. Granted if I passed I wouldn't be in the current situation but **** happens.

In the US and SA (so I've been led to believe) the exam is marked immediately. Why this can't be done here is beyond me. Probably because there are so many erroneous questions that are ambiguous and subject to appeals.

Second, and this is an aside, charging 60 quid a piece for the two comms papers and also putting the total marks available to weigh in the favour of the marker, i.e. 75% pass mark, 20 questions at 1 mark each means you can get 5 wrong, however what the CAA/JAA do is grade the exam out of 23 meaning you still can only get 5 wrong but you have 3 more chances to mess up. Cynical or what. They add these three marks onto all 14 exams.

Rant over

[GrkPilot]

Where did you finish your ground school?

[scameron77]

I did my groundschool with Bristol and I can't recommend them highly enough. The material and support were first class as was the teaching. 3 lecturers really stood out.

Do you need the ATPL's done to sit your IR skills test? I thought they were just required for the CPL . . . anyone?