just retired from the rat race [Archive]

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no more nite flights

22nd Aug 2006, 17:43

Hi all,just retired after 35yrs flying,from Viscounts to B747,and all inbetween.
What a change in the status/treatment of professional pilots in this time.Used to be a respected job and employers treated you as a true professional....sadly not any more.Pilots are treated as hired hands,by employers and airline agencies alike,with worthless contracts and abyssmal t& conditions,more appropriate for a labourer.
Budget airlines have excaserbated this trend,with ludicrous turn around times and fatiguing rosters,only concerned with productivity and maximum legal(???) hours.
I will miss my flying colleagues,who still have to accept these apalling conditions.They are true professionals,led by incompetent management.Pilots in charge of multi million pound aircraft and several hundred lives deserve a far better deal,and I just hope somene will realise what a fantastic job these guys/gals do,and get the recognition and rewards they deserve,without having to threaten industrial action.

Good luck and happy landings.......

RoyHudd

22nd Aug 2006, 18:29

Thank you and good luck to you. No more sim, medicals, night flights, early starts, passenger hassles, crew food, 100 hr/month rosters, idiotic management edicts, and maybe worst of all, UK security staff idiocy.

....come to think of it , I fancy retirement too. (If it wasn't for the flying, that is). Ah well.

Oldy

22nd Aug 2006, 18:31

Dear NMNFs,

On behalf of all pilots, and all airline industry professionals, thank you for all you have done. We have no doubt met at some time during the last 40 years. Enjoy your well earned retirement.

Consider this: Things will continue to change, and young people will continue to have a good time despite all the obstacles placed before them. This does not of course absolve management of responsibility and accountability.

*Zwitter*

22nd Aug 2006, 19:17

Flightman

22nd Aug 2006, 20:19

corsair

22nd Aug 2006, 21:01

Happy retirement, look at it this way. At least you had the good bits, the 'happy time' if you like. The rest of us think this is normal!:ugh:

If it's any consolation, you hear it in lot of professions and ordinary jobs. Corporate BS and beancounting is the order of the day in most companies these days.:*

EI-Shamrock

22nd Aug 2006, 21:23

I don't think I can top what Zwitter said, but enjoy your retirement! I have it all ahead of me, the good and the bad.

Go n-éirí an bóthar leat
(May the road rise to meet you)

All the best,
EI-Shamrock

:ok:

GreatCircle

22nd Aug 2006, 22:31

In just over 20 years I'll be following you into hanging up the hat, and folding away the wings for the last time.

Enjoy your retirement, and best wishes from us all here on the west side of the Big Pond - I'll send you a wave heading westward tomorrow (Thursday) on yet another crossing home...

There have been huge changes, even in the 14 years I've been on the heavy metal - we all hope it'll get better...

Zwitter - I am sure NMNF and all us drivers appreciate the kind thoughts.

JanetFlight

23rd Aug 2006, 00:57

All the best for Your Future NMNF;)

Tanx for your words...Wise and Lovely:D

Cheers:ok:

Xeque

23rd Aug 2006, 05:48

Good luck and God bless!

But I bet you'll be wandering up to your local Flying Club fairly shortly - just to see what's going on of course :ok:

angels

23rd Aug 2006, 07:02

Yip, and all the best from me as well. You may even have flown me at some stage.

I realise that maybe the good old days have long gone, but it's the same in most jobs/careers nowadays I can assure you.

As has been mentioned earlier, there are plenty of us who envy you for what you have seen and done.

Have a very long and happy retirement. You've earned it.

Cheers.

MercenaryAli

23rd Aug 2006, 07:05

What a change in the status/treatment of professional pilots in this time.Used to be a respected job and employers treated you as a true professional....sadly not any more.Pilots are treated as hired hands,by employers and airline agencies alike,with worthless contracts and abyssmal t& conditions,more appropriate for a labourer.

Every word the TRUTH. My dear old dad ex RAF, ex British South American Airlines ex BOAC and ex BA - Lancaster dropping bombs on the HUN to B747 moving hundreds of pax at a time via the Constellation through Comets - says exactly the SAME. So I guess you must be right!

Enjoy your retirement and don't be shy - I am sure the local flying club will welcome you - even if it's only for a coffee and a chat :)

tinpis

23rd Aug 2006, 07:06

Its a great feeling
Hope you sleep well
Im still waiting:(

ray cosmic

23rd Aug 2006, 09:30

In 30 year they can carry me out on a stretcher as well; if I can go early at 60. I have seen change in the last 8 years; I can only imagine how dramatic it is to see it happen from the start.
Ah well... One day all the baddies from management will be punished by a higher force. I am stronger than the avarage brainless idiot trying to attack my free time (again..) and wll not let it get to me.
Life is good.

Hirsutesme

23rd Aug 2006, 11:39

Many wise and well meant words. Sadly erosion will continue until pilots not only stick together, but also co-ordinate across companies....and countries.

ROI1900D

23rd Aug 2006, 13:11

Hi all,
Let's hope that every Pilot in the World could say teh same thing in the future!!!!!!!!!!
Happy landings.

SIDSTAR

23rd Aug 2006, 15:23

Hi NMNF,

Great posting and nice to know you realise how good it was in the past. Today, sure it's not nearly as good, especially in the lower end of things. However, it's a different ballgame and the airlines have to really compete to survive - not just pay lip-service to competition as in pooled routes or protected rights that nobody else could access as was the case before de-regulation.

Most of us would love to have had the career that you've had and may you have many and fruitful days ahead - hopefully also remembering those good times that we're not too likely to experience. Despite the changes for the worse, most of us still love this business and do not consider it a job. It certainly beats stacking shelves and other such jobs that I've done in the past and I hope I never get too complacent about where I am now or forget where I came from. That's not to say that we shouldn't stand up for our collective rights. It's just a different ballgame with a different emphasis now. The Southwests etc have utterly changed life as you guys used to know it and we have to live with the hand we've been dealt.

It would be great if you and your buddies would write up your stories - perhaps like the late gentleman Len Morgan who wrote so eloquently for years for Flying magazine. That might inspire some little kid to try his hand at this game and who knows, some day he might be writing in Pprune about hanging up his goggles and on it would go... It's still a very privileged view of the world that we get and it would be great to pass it on. May you have many years of sundowners watching the world go (rushing) by! Thanks.

CamelhAir

23rd Aug 2006, 19:45

Despite the changes for the worse, most of us still love this business and do not consider it a job. It certainly beats stacking shelves

Most pilots would consider that stacking shelves is not what they would aspire to if they weren't flying. The consideration of how a pilot with the responsibility of operating an airliner should be treated should be based on something with commensurate responsibility. If you consider that merely better off than a shelf-stacker is good enough, perhaps you should re-examine your attitude towards the profession.

BTW NMNF, good luck sir and enjoy retirement. While not wishing for an immediate accumulation of such a wise and learned amount of years, it is perhaps a good position to be in.

JustAnothrWindScreen

26th Aug 2006, 14:54

no more nite flights

Have a great well deserved retirement. I hang up the hat in 3 months and will change my alias to "no more flying past 8 PM"

Nick 1

26th Aug 2006, 19:05

Lucifer

27th Aug 2006, 09:14

Pilots in charge of multi million pound aircraft and several hundred lives deserve a far better deal
Unfortunately the "status" and glamour of the past that you bemoan having been lost, is what has attracted numerous unsuitables who are prepared to work for less in more demanding conditions.

While the labour market attracts such individuals, and in the absence of screening at an early stage through more rigourous sponsorship selection, pilots will get no better deal than any other worker in the economy.

old fart

27th Aug 2006, 11:45

Jet Provost mk3
Gnat
Victor Tanker K1a
Jet Provost mk4&5
Strikemaster
Bulldog
Lear Jet 35/36
Boeing 707
DC 9
DC 10
MD 11
MD 80
Boeing 747-300
Airbus 319/320/321
Airbus 330
Boeing 747-100/200/300

42 years.

Just retired at 60yrs. (kicking and screaming)

Great time, wonderfull people.
Never really appreciated how lucky I've been, until now.

Have fun up there.

Cheers.
Old Fart..

old fart

27th Aug 2006, 12:26

Just for a bit of fun, I thought I'd work out how many passengers my civil career amounted to.
15000 hrs
4.5 hrs average sector length.
300 pax per sector.

and the answer was..... 1,000,000. !!!!

Cheers.

gooneydog

27th Aug 2006, 12:52

Where did you fly the DC-9 ? I just retired off it in June Now on DA-20

u0062

27th Aug 2006, 17:38

No more nite flights,

As has been said by many enjoy your well earnt retirement.

old fart

27th Aug 2006, 19:17

Swissair. 1980/1982
cheers
old fart

Lucifer

28th Aug 2006, 01:19

Now retired, you always have the chance to fly one of your Bulldogs again at many field around the country!

bigbusdriver06

29th Aug 2006, 13:10

no more nite flights

I’ve been thinking about your post ever since it appeared and it saddens me deeply - for two reasons.

Firstly, you are absolutely correct about the undermining of pilots’ status, terms and conditions and pretty much everything else over 35 years. That’s depressing, to say the least.

But secondly, and more to the point, I’m saddened by your own position in all this. I detect someone limping away from their chosen career muttering “Thank God it’s over”. That’s depressing too. I’m your age, give or take a year or two. I cannot imagine giving up before 60, it’s too much fun.

I imagine that maybe you went through Hamble/Oxford in 1972/73. You were lucky to go on the Viscount rather than the Trident. Or maybe you were ex-Cambrian Viscount - if so, your career went meteoric compared with what might have been.

I went from Hamble onto the Trident and had a miserable time doing less than 300 hours a year (half in the P3 seat), mostly on Shuttle back-up and standby. That’s no way to treat a keen pilot in his 20’s. These were not, repeat not, golden days and, despite the superb pay and conditions, and like all cloned Hamsters I learnt to moan all day and every day.

The Trident was a fantastic aircraft, but flying it was ruined by ridiculous SOPs and more than a few captains you really would rather not be with. BA management at all levels was pathetic. I got out, and needless to say nobody in flight management ever knew my name or bothered to say goodbye.

Over the years you presumably progressed in the standard BA way (20+ years to command?) until eventually you ended up top of the bidline on the -400. I’m pleased that you managed to hang onto BA’s generous pay and conditions, though I imagine that watching them under 24x7 attack got a bit tedious. You are now retiring under the most favourable conditions imaginable and it would be logical to assume that you would be disappearing into the sunset with a big smile on your face. It is ironic that companies are being squeezed by huge costs such as your pension, which is is one reason why they are forcing the very same cuts to pay and conditions that you are complaining about.

So what has brought about your concern? Have you perhaps tried to get a retirement job and been appalled at what you’ve found? If so, I’m not surprised. On the face of it, it is indeed truly depressing.

But is it really? The most important “Term and Endearment” is nothing to do with terms and conditions but with the actual job itself - the company, the aircraft, the routes, the rosters and above all the people, both on the aircraft and in the office.

Since leaving BA my sole criterion has been with the job itself and I’ve had a brilliant time. Lots of types, lots of variety, hard work and challenging but always fun. The terms and conditions may have got worse and worse but you do adapt to the ever-moving goalposts.

My current job is with a loco and my pay and contract is worse than basic. But they do deliver everything that is promised, and in addition:

I get treated with a lot of respect
I get left to run things the way I want
I don’t feel at all undermined
If things go wrong they don’t assign blame
I fly fun aircraft that are well-maintained and don’t carry ADDs
I fly great routes, mostly 2 sector days
I hardly ever fly at night
I fly around 600 hours per year and rarely get tired
Our contractors work hard and will even sprint to get the job done efficiently
I get the leave and days off I want
Above all, I’m with the best bunch of people I’ve ever come across

What of the management? The big boss is hard-nosed and single-minded about the success and profitably of the company. I trust him to get it right, and to ensure our survival where others would fail. He could of course give us the commendable TFly levels of pay and conditions, but that would probably drive us to the wall. Which would I prefer?

Fleet management are fine. Good solid people who get along together (unusual in aviation) and offer support and guidance but no interference. Ideal.

Turnrounds? We often depart and arrive early so turnrounds are not a problem. Yes, they are busy but we go when we are completely ready and not before. Why do I want a long turnround?

Finally, there is of course the small matter of money. The way the EC is going we will all be under even more threat of being undercut. Being a pilot is not going to be a good way of earning money, whatever the employer. Fortunately there are plenty of other ways of making money (you have to think laterally) and our pilot jobs are perfectly compatible with them. My retirement is as secure (well, almost….) as if I had stayed in BA.

So if you are new to aviation, you don’t need to be depressed by this thread. It’s still a great job, despite all the things they are trying to shaft us with. I’m flying with First Officers who have crawled over broken glass to get the right seat of a loco and queued up to pay for their type ratings. Yet they think they are the luckiest people on this planet. It’s an appalling state of affairs, but are most people happy? YES! They will get their commands as soon as they are ready, and with a few P1 hours under their belts the very same market forces that have destroyed terms and conditions will allow them to move left-seat to left-seat almost anywhere they want. That's a lot more exciting than dead mens' shoes and seniority lists.

no more nite flights,
I sincerely wish you a long and happy retirement, and your concern is touching but it really isn’t so bad out here in the cold. Do come and join us. Experience has shown that most ex-BA pilots have the time of their lives when released to fly in the real world!

757operator

30th Aug 2006, 06:57

Ex-BA pilots willing to work for peanuts while drawing their huge pensions is one reason we are in this mess.

cavortingcheetah

30th Aug 2006, 08:24

:hmm:

.. Doffing scrambled egg peaked cap and donning baseball cap..

A reading of the pages of Pprune would seem to indicate that there are a very large number of very inexperienced pilots flying around the skies in a sort of job culture that encourages them to think in terms of instant jet entry.
It is also apparent that this culture has permeated the pilotage side of the aviation industry to an extent that many of these newbie pilots have overweening attitudes as to their own capabilities and brilliance simply because either they fly jets or they intend only to fly jets. :suspect:
Flying in face of their own good fortune as they do; they overloook the hard road that many before them have trodden with the concurrent experience gleaned by learning from the mistakes of others, profiting from the lessons of their own, or in the extrication from situations in which they would rather not have found themselves.
It therefore seems possible that the role of a civil jet pilot today is rapidly changing to reflect his job as a low speed sophisticated systems manager. In fact, the word pilot and its meaning as.. 'one who directs the course'.. is becoming redundant and should perhaps be replaced with the title of 'Airborne Computer Manager' or ACM for short.
With this in mind; it is perhaps not at all a bad idea to have a pilot at the helm who has as his background the sort of experience which has contributed so much to the relatively excellent world wide aviation safety statistics. An old pilot who, by virtue of years of varied flying, is by now, one hopes, possessed of a sixth sense which will allow him to determine when the computers are wrong and when common sense should prevail.
It impacts on all industries when those at the end of their careers and on handsome pensions are perceived to detract from the opportunities of the young Turks on the way up but, speaking from under the baseball cap; I know whom I'd rather have sitting in the left when the Gods are angry.:ooh:

Although no particular fan of the platinum bar brigade; it is fizzing to read such a positive post from one who obviously enjoys the work so much that such is probably its own reward.:)

Yarpy

30th Aug 2006, 16:43

most ex-BA pilots have the time of their lives when released to fly in the real world!

Sure. And most of them are really nice guys. However . . . It is a different world when you have a BA pension behind you. This considerably ameliorates the pressure of having to toe the management line on cost cutting, base changes, discretion and a host of other issues.

bigbusdriver06

31st Aug 2006, 20:18

Yarpy,

That's a very interesting concept, using take-it-or-leave staff to sort out management idiocies - I like it!

Could you please expand on this? Do you have any relevant first-hand experience that you could share with us?

Lucifer

31st Aug 2006, 22:56

Ex-BA pilots willing to work for peanuts while drawing their huge pensions is one reason we are in this mess.
Tosh. There is a market for their skills and experience. There are however too many inexperienced fATPL holders seeking jobs.

Understand your job market before posting comments on what you clearly do not understand!

757operator

1st Sep 2006, 08:45

Lucifer,

I'm at the harshest unprotected edge of the captains' UK job market and I am simply reporting what I am seeing.

Where are you?

Re "too many inexperienced fATPL's", I fly with them every day. Inexperienced, yes. Also very capable and highly motivated. And they don't whinge. Were you ever inexperienced?

GANNET FAN

1st Sep 2006, 15:05

From a humble PAX thanks you for all you did.

You and your colleagues will always be more than mere bus drivers to us.

enjoy your retirement, walk away safe in the knowledge that you had a career many of us can only dream of :)

Agree 100pc+. I have been lucky enough to have had great contact with many pilots in the left hand seat who have made flying fun for me from teenage till late ages!!

Very much enjoy your retirement, and for what its worth you have my thanks

JC

Re-Heat

1st Sep 2006, 15:38

Ex-BA pilots willing to work for peanuts while drawing their huge pensions is one reason we are in this mess.
Added to which, many of those ex-BA chaps are ex-military guys, not on huge pensions.

757operator

1st Sep 2006, 16:03

Correct me if I'm wrong (which I probably am), but if you are ex-BA and already drawing a pension from NAPS, then that pension is not as risk. It's the guys who haven't yet retired whose pension is dodgy.

Re-Heat

1st Sep 2006, 17:21

Apologies - you are correct. First point remains.

no more nite flights

5th Sep 2006, 20:11

HI all,TKS for your good wishes..much appreciated.Not ex BA,BUT cambrian/AIC/IEA/HEAVYLIFT/KLM/SCANDIC/ATLANTA/GO(the BEST), and easy..........

(forgot U.N. India)

I think the numerous employers reflect the stability of the Pilot market over the years,nearly all went bust!.
Several wivesand near financial ruin has surprisingly made me more affluent....its just me and the dog...........WE both miss flying but I can always rent a turbo c150and pretend ITS A B747!!....VERY SAD.

Im off qto the golf club now for 18 holes,but still cant resist that painful lookat my home for 35yrs every time I HEAR THAT SOUND.............you will know what I mean..

Good wishes to all my fellow aviators..I will sadly miss all the Characters in aviation, and there were quite a few....

Put my checklist away,taken off the ol uniform and stored my logs/licence for posterity..........