Flying over London: Heli-lanes etc

[The Nr Fairy]

All :

I'm taking an R44, with instructor, and two pax, over London next Saturday to see the sights, UK February weather permitting.

I've been leafing through the AIP and can't find anything official about the heli lanes. There's the CAA chart, which I'll peruse beforehand, and the instructor, who's done this sort of thing before, but that's it as far as I can see.

Two Q's arise. First, is there any source of info which is even remotely official ( I don't have a Pooley's or similar ) ? In Australia, the ERSA gives detailed info on the heliroutes around Sydney Harbour. Secondly, does this give official carte blanche to those inclined to blat up the heli lanes around London with no prior experience or information ? Doesn't sound too clever to me . . .

[gokel]

In Spain It´s illegal flying over cities unless for twins helo´s. And you need an special autorization to do so.

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[hoverbover]

Nr Fairey
Heli Routes through London are pretty well explained/shown on the Helicopter Routes in the London Control Zone Chart.ie Min/Max heights. single/twin routes etc.And which routes may/may not be available due to Heathrow etc.

However the Pages (599 thru 612 I think)in Pooleys are almost a must if you haven't been through before these explain entry procedures into the London CTR and limitations on weather/vis etc.

They are usually helpful but expect you to be very accurate in your flying and when you have looked at the chart you'll realise why!

It also gets busy, As you are doing it with the instructor who has prior experience it shouldn't be a problem,but I wouldn't attempt it on my own for the first time(Being myself only a few hundred hour novice when it comes to the art of rotary wing flying)You'll be surprised how difficult it is to follow the chart on certain routes and the landmarks to fly to/from are also important to find to give you your route.

Im sure more experinced heli routers would have more to add, these are just my experiences.

Regards
hoverbover

PS
This is my first posting hope it works OK.

[Fortyodd]

Nr Fairy,
E-mail on it's way.

------------------
Whilst all reasonable care has been taken, this product may contain traces of nuts.......

[A109]

Please don't fly around without at least a Pooleys it is, along with a relevant chart, the very minimum that a GA helicopter pilot ought to have with them in the cockpit. One of the many things that stops people blatting in to the Heathrow Zone, which is after all category A Airspace, without experience is the fact that the Special VFR position at Heathrow can see if you are within 25 yards of the blue line on the routes map and while they will be very understanding over minor transgressions will, if pushed, rightly tell you to turn towards the nearest boarder of the Zone and push off out of their airspace. To save any embarrassment like that, please study the Pooleys pages, carry the routes map and adhere strictly to the heights thereon. I even put the waypoints in a route on the GPS in case I suddenly need to use a route which I haven't used for a long while. This will help all the poor sods living under the routes as well as all the helicopter pilots who hope to have an industry in the future. There is a dreadful American saying " Fly Neighbourly" Of course, we prefer "Fly In A Neighbourly Fashion" but the idea is the same and knowing the routes well is part of that.

[eden]

It is very true to say that the routes are very closely monitored by Mr SVFR at Heathrow, it is IMPERATIVE that you are fully briefed by both the Instructor and yourself on the procedures. Pooleys is good and is an essential item in the prep' for entering the routes along with a current map. If as you say this is your first time, I suggest you either do the map work or fly, sharing the workload with ya instructor. If you try and do both first time, you aren't going to get much from it other than mayhem and a snide comment from ATC or worse.

Another little tip is if it is your first time in the routes give the SVFR controller at Heathrow a phone call and tell him your intended route. Ask him questions - if you aren't sure about the procedures you've read. He won't give you special treatment but he will take you seriously and you will have at least cleared up any confusion from the horses mouth.

Use GPS if you have it - but DON'T rely on it .....back it up with some approx timing marks on the 1:50,000 and 1:250,000 (for the big picture) - it will all help to give you that feeling of staying ahead of the game.

Excuse me if I'm stating the bleedin' obvious and I'm sure other pilots will feel differently, but this is how I might approach my first time all over again.

You'll be busy - but you're pax will get a great view of 'The Smoke'.

[Floppy Link]

Got to agree about accuracy - fly the route exactly as shown on the chart. That's why it's a 50,000 chart.
Got a rollocking from radar once for being about 200 m off the lane!
But the views are well worth the effort.
F L

[Flying Lawyer]

I agree with all that's been said about thorough pre-flight planning, and accurate flying.

I pass on 3 useful tips given to me:

(1) Your first radio call.
This is very important; try to sound as professional as possible. Prepare what you need to say and be ready to read back the clearance accurately.
You can anticipate the likely clearance, but watch for variations. eg You might not be cleared (at that stage) for the entire route you've requested.
Your first call will reveal whether or not you know what you are doing. If you appear to be struggling at the first 'hurdle' you may find yourself being made to hold for a (suspiciously) long time!

(2) Check Heathrow ATIS for runway info before you call Heathrow Radar.
H3 is usually closed if the Easterly runways are being used, and restricted if Rwy 23 is in use.
If your route home is along H3, be prepared to request (and fly) an alternative route in case the runways change whilst you are airborne.

(3) Rule 5
Remember SVFR does not absolve you from complying with Rule 5. eg The London Eye (on H4) is 464' amsl!


The London controllers are very professional and, provided your flying is equally professional, you'll enjoy wonderful views of London.

The Heathrow crossing (H9) is a spectacular experience, low level across the airport, but IMHO should not be attempted unless you are with someone who's familiar with the route and the holding points.

Enjoy your flight!

[Multp]

Details of SVFR clearances in the LHR CTZ can be found in the AIP AD Section, London Heathrow, page refs AD2-EGLL-1-24 through to -1-32. There's an A4 size chart on page -3-2.
BTW, if you have the AIP CD-Rom it's slightly easier to search than leafing through the massive books and you can do yourself a print out.
Agree with all the previous comments. Enjoy!

[Hoverman]

Flying Lawyer
If I can borrow (and adapt) a recent post of yours on another topic:
"It's bad enough non-professionals giving advice, but getting it right is going too far!" :)
Sound, practical advice. :ok:

Nr Fairy
A slight note of caution.
F/L is obviously familiar with the Heathrow crossing.
You shouldn't even consider attempting it unless you are with someone like him, or an instructor who knows the crossing well - and not all instructors do.
IMHO the Heathrow crossing is the one part of the routes which should not be attempted just by looking at the charts and Pooley's. Heathrow Tower contollers have a phenomenally high workload and understandably expect you to react quickly and accurately to their instructions.
We face ever increasing restrictions, and we dread the thought of a PPL being thrown by the pressure and screwing things up. It wouldn't take much for the powers that be to decide that the crossing should be closed - one airliner being required to overshoot because of a PPL misunderstanding an instruction would probably do it!

I'm not getting at PPLs, just being practical.

[This message has been edited by Hoverman (edited 06 February 2001).]

[ANOrak]

Nr Fairy,

Good luck on Saturday and I hope you and your passengers enjoy the flight. There has to be a first time!

Two items of advice: Firstly fly at max route altitude at all times because it reduces the chances of upsetting the townies below. Secondly, if things go a bit wrong and you are losing the plot, tell ATC and ask the controller to put you back on the route. If he is worth his salt, and most of them are, he will be only too pleased to assist. They get hacked off with those who are too arogant (or stupid) to ask.

[Hoverman]

Forgot to say congratulations for starting a thread which hasn't turned into an anti-Robinson debate - although saying you were doing the trip in an R44 was tempting fate!

Rotorheads at its best. A PPL asks a question, and gets helped by professionals and a more experienced PPL.
It's good to see the forum back on track after some turbulence which now seems to have subsided - for ever, I hope.


[This message has been edited by Hoverman (edited 07 February 2001).]

[EESDL]

Here, Here!
Pooley's doesn't cover everything, view the AIP as already suggested. Try and get a copy of the Military HLS book (useful info re Heli-lanes and Heathrow in particular).
Enjoy your flight
I'm not due out of hibernation until March:-(

[[email protected]]

Once you've done it a few times and got the routes sorted, get yourself in a twin and try it at night. On a good night it makes the day stuff look rather routine and the LHR crossing is much easier because their traffic volume is much lower. H3 is easy at night cos you fly from dark bit to dark bit but H10 is a bit of a bugger!
Enjoy the trip and make full use of all the very good advice that has been posted.

[The Nr Fairy]

The pertinent and non-personal parts of Forty-odd's email concerned changes to H10 now following the new line of the A40, the fact that after 12:30 City CTR is closed, which makes things slightly easier, and a recommendation to buy my own copy of Pooleys !! All the above is in the public domain, it's just that a kind person wanted to make my life a bit easier.

Also, as other people have mentioned, if you know of ( or are provided by a kind PPRuNer ) a contact to get a copy of the Military HLS guide apparently there's a very good brief in it about the heli-lanes. My blagged copy is waiting for me at home !!

[The Nr Fairy]

For those of you in Southern England this weekend, it should come as no surprise that I got weathered off my trip. Sunday would have been doable, if it wasn't for passengers !!

For future reference, though, this is what I've collated from the thread. Note none of it is from personal experience, it's all from the posts made and info read.

1. First timer heli-laners ( or even guys who've done it before but haven't done the LHR crossing ) should do it with an experienced pilot who knows the wrinkles - in my case this would have been an instructor who's done it several times before.

2. Get a Pooleys, Military HLS guide, or the relevant pages from the EGLL AIP pages, AD2-EGLL-1-24 through to -1-32 with an A4 size chart on page -3-2. Read them, digest them, then ask your instructor questions.

3. Get relevant charts ( edition 9 of the heli-lanes chart is current as I write ) and the 1/4-mill of Southern England for the approaches.

4. Check LHR ATIS before arrival - if the 09 runways are in use, H3 will probably be closed, and if 23 is in use, then use of H3 may be restricted. You'll need to give an ETA for the CTR boundary, so timing marks on the charts will help here.

5. On first call, include your preferred routing, but expect something different if the controllers know something you don't.

6. Fly the routes as shown on the map ( deviation is allowed in this game, but not hesitation, for opposite direction traffic ) and keep rule 5(1)(e) - the 500' rule - in mind. If possible, fly at max route altitude.

7. If you're losing the plot tell ATC - they'll help you if you admit it, and will chuck you out of the CTR if you cause them problems.

All I have to do now is wait for the right weather. Unless of course there's a twin pilot out there who can find a spare right hand seat sometime - I'd love to see it at night but twins are out of my budget at the moment !!

[This message has been edited by The Nr Fairy (edited 12 February 2001).]

[Pac Rotors]

Sydney, Australia has put into place a very efficent lane system that seems to work well and allows all to get to various points with the least amount of hassle and inconvenience. Any comments from those that have used it would be appreciated.

[The Nr Fairy]

I actually converted to helicopters when I was working in Sydney for a year. For those who've not done it, if you imagine a trip from Bankstown airport, in the west of Sydney, north to the Paramatta river ( which is the official name for the river which ends up in Sydney Harbour ), then you fly at 500' from Ryde bridges, eastbound to the southern pylon of the Harbour Bridge, then climb to 1000' over the outer part of the harbour. That's to keep underneath the departures and arrivals from Sydney International ( Kingsford Smith ).

You speak to Bankstown on the way out, then change to the R405 assigned frequency and make blind calls to let other users know what's going on. You keep right ( as standard ) of the centreline of the river, clear of the houses on the land, and it's a really impressive trip. It's helicopters only between the bridges at 500'.

To exit the Sydney area northbound, and to enter southbound, there are also lanes of entry and exit, defined by lights on buildings which are visible from the air, with defined heights and frequencies. You only talk to a controller when in range of Bankstown.

There are also defined helicopter entry routes to Sydney international, dependent on the runway in use, but I never went that way.

Now the harbour trip is great fun, and it also works because people stick to it. I suspect the reason it isn't set up like that in the UK is that there's a tad more paranoia about the consequences.

[Hoverman]

The Nr Fairey raises an interesting issue.
There is paranoia about being prosecuted for some infringement of the Regs. But, it's justified - just because we're paranoid doesn't mean the CAA Enforcement Branch doesn't exist!
What is it that makes people in the UK look for a reason to complain if they see a helicopter at close range? Americans don't rush to phone the police if they see a helicopter passing their window.
ANOrak advised flying at maximum permitted altitude on the routes to avoid complaints. Very good advice. Why do Brits complain so quickly?
Is it the green-eyed monster?

[ANOrak]

Hoverman, you make a very good point yourself but this should not be under this topic. May I suggest that you start a new one because there is plenty more to say?

The British Helicopter Advisory Board has a Members' Day on 27th February which is to be attended by several representitives of the CAA (allegedly). It would be a good opportunity to ask their views.

[DOC.400]

mULTP -what do you mean, 'only a PPL'?!

Jeppesons also v clear on heli routes, incl reporting points, co-ordinates and description.

Have fun!

Nearest I can get in a single fix wing is a few SVFR cutting corners!

[StevieTerrier]

I paid a quick visit to Al-Fayed Field on Thursday last. Whilst I was in the tower, I saw a piece of paper headed "List of Battersea Power Station Movements". Didnt have time to find out anything more. Anybody been in there, or know anything about it?

[t'aint natural]

You'll notice when flying on H4 there's an H painted beside the power station... I was told it was for the personal use of John Broom, when he owned the site. If anybody knows different, I'd love to know, too

[Qualityman]

The Helipad at the Power Station is privately owned but operated by Air Medina - Mal Thwaites formerly of First City Air.

Last I heard it was not available for Commercial operations, Private only. So it may be a viable option if you have a full day parking requirement in London and don't want to line Fayed's pockets! Can't guarantee this info is correct so please contact Mal on:

020 7592 0192

[paco]

The H at the power station was indeed originated by John Broome, of Alton Towers fame - I know, I was that soldier <img src="wink.gif" border="0"> Well, on the 206L anyway

Phil

[ 25 December 2001: Message edited by: paco ]</p>

[ppheli]

Noel Edmonds has also used this site in the last few months in his A109 Power

[Jed A1]

paco, halcyon days. I beleive the man was last seen growing vines in Shropshire(?).

OPS MAN AKL MAN

[paco]

Hi Jed A1 - they certainly were! Brooklands, etc...

where are you now? Somehow I can't imagine JLB growing vines...

Phil

[Jed A1]

South Caribbean.

[Jetscream 32]

So who's up for finding a new site going east and on the north side. Maybe somehwere near Excel etc.

Anyone know any money bags with a passion for helis that wouldnt mind fronting a couple of £ mill, if they fancy earning as well, i have a full business plan for a decent Scheduled heli service from the City to a couple of destinations.

Seriously interested if anyone has an introduction available???

Cheers <img src="tongue.gif" border="0"> <img src="tongue.gif" border="0">

[md 600 driver]

jetscream 32
i belive that martin woods [mw helicopters] is seting up a company at excell or already has.regards steve

[Southern Cross]

On a regular basis, a helicopter lands on the roof of a building adjacent to Ely Place in EC1 / 4 (?), central London, seemingly to drop someone off, then immediately takes off again. Was wondering whether anyone knows who manages to get so convenient a commute into town...?:D

Thanks

[ppheli]

I guess you're referring to a silver and burgundy stripey Twin Squirrel at a building just off Holborn Circus? Well, it's one of those interesting companies that likes remaining anonymous (try finding a name on their building) but their proximity to Hatton Garden may be a giveaway.....

[Helo]

The helicopter flies in Nicky Oppenheimer of DeBeers. Here's one person's take on how the DeBeers Cartel has manipulated the diamond market for the last century or so ...

The helicopter landing on the roof of a building in Charterhouse Street, on the edge of the City of London, every morning ejects a man in a suit, Nicky Oppenheimer, soon to be chairman of the De Beers empire that his grandfather, Sir Ernest, built into an international company and a global cartel. From the roof he descends to his hushed, wood-panelled offices, to preside over an operation of which the Soviets would have been proud.

Every five weeks, his men meet in this building to sell to diamond brokers the precious stones that De Beers has gathered from the world’s diamond mines. Here the visitor finds no free-for-all scramble. This is an exquisitely controlled, polite operation. Each broker has already placed his orders for the stones on behalf of his clients, the cutters and polishers. The men from De Beers meet for an entire day to discuss who should get what.

Not to discuss the price: this they have already fixed, based on their reading of the market "and on our intelligence". This time, the decision is about which stones to give out—big ones, small ones, clear ones, pink ones—and in what combination. The result is parcelled up secretly into little brown boxes, sealed with tape, and handed out to the brokers when they fly into London. A broker inspects his box, and can reject it altogether; but he cannot start quibbling about the selection he has got.

Welcome to the mad world of De Beers, where James Bond meets the Wild West and manages to turn the raw, lawless frontier world of diamond digging and dealing into the most smoothly manipulated business in the world—"all", as Lord Randolph Churchill famously observed when he visited the South African diamond mines in the 1890s, "for the vanity of woman" (and, today, of man). It is not merely gems that De Beers is selling, but symbols, myths, magic. As a worldwide dealer in enchanting illusions, Disney has nothing on De Beers: for the preciousness of the diamond is not a fact but a triumph of modern marketing.

... Now you know!!!!

Helo

[FlyingForFun]

As a non-helo guy, I was just wondering what the legal/ATC implications of this flight are. I know about the helo routes through London, but I presume they'd still need permission from Thames/London??? Just curious!

Thanks!

FFF
-----------

[Flying Lawyer]

FFF
All non-IFR helicopter flights in the Zone are subject to Special VFR clearance, usually from Heathrow west of the Battersea Heliport and Thames Radar east of the Heliport. (Clearance from Heathrow Director if Heathrow Radar/Thames Radar are not operational.)
If keeping to the heli routes, the clearance is usually "Standard Operating Altitudes" which gradually increases to 2000' east of Vauxhall Bridge.
Twin-engine helicopters are not restricted to the Heli Routes and the clearance will be "not above .......... feet."
The Heathrow and Thames controllers are very professional and usually friendly and helpful provided you know what you're doing/comply with the clearance, which is fair given their high workload.

The usual low flying rules for helicopters still apply and remain the pilot's responsibility.

There's more to it, but I hope this is enough to answer your question.

Tudor Owen

(Let me know if you want to 'FlyForFun' down the heli routes some time - fantastic views of London, and you can even fly across LHR at 800'!!)

[FlyingForFun]

Thanks Tudor, yes that's pretty much what I thought would happen, but you've filled in some details.

I might have to take you up on the offer of a flight! Where do you fly from? I've only been in a helicoptor twice, and both times were superb... I'd love to fly over London. I could even offer you a return flight in the Europa if you like - but, sadly, not across London.

Cheers,

FFF
----------

[Flying Lawyer]

FFF
It varies.
Gazelle from MW Helicopters at Stapleford.
JetRanger from HeliAir Denham or Biggin Hill Helicopters.
You're welcome to e-mail me.
Tudor Owen

[AlanM]

Flying Lawyer, you said:

Twin-engine helicopters are not restricted to the Heli Routes and the clearance will be "not above .......... feet."
Correct, but only in CTR West or CTR East. CTR West is west of the line from Denham to Brooklands, and CTR East is eat of the lines from BNN 143 - EGLW - Due South. Here twins can fly off the routes. (Hence departing EGLW Brent or due South LEVEL at 1500 as all flights in the segment of 020 - 140 degress based on EGLL must be level at 1500')

In CTR Central (the bit between!) they must fly on the routes unless of course they are on a LL Ops approved Non Standard Flight "Whiskey" number!

Crossing LL is hard work and you need to know the rules but is very rewarding. Managed to get a pic of an AFR 737 flareing below us!

Otherwise all spot on. :ok:
And us overworked underpaid staff on 119.9 and 132.7 are always available as ballast on trips on the routes!!!

Cheers

[jellycopter]

I'm looking to fly to London a few times on business and wondered if anyone knows of some HLSs along the Thames that can be used. I use Battersea regularly but it's a long time by cab from either the west end or docklands where I need to get to. I've heard there's a site near to Battersea but don't know who to contact. Also, there's a v.nice 'H' painted at the Millenium Dome which would be perfect for the docklands run; details gratefully received. Finally, I need single engine options re rule 5. Thanks . J

[EESDL]

Have you thought about using any of the military barracks that are based in the City?
Haven't myself, but then I've no need too. Obviously, there could be security checks etc but if you're planning to do it on a regular basis..........
Suggest you get hold of a copy of the RAFl HLS book (published by No 1 AIDU)
[email protected]
They might even have the answer!

[Jarvy]

There is a small site on Isle of Dogs just about
where H4 entry is. Its know as Vanguard and
can be seen right next to river. Don't know any
more sorry.

[DBChopper]

Jarvy - is that the one that seems to be part of a car park? If so it's just East of the first bend in the river on H4. I always did wonder whose that was. Any ideas?

DBChopper
:confused:

[Jarvy]

Yes that's the one. Sorry dont know any more,
will try to find out over weekend.

[headsethair]

The BBC used Woolwich Barracks the other week with a bowser of fuel for a heli-tele op on the May Day riots. Some 8 hours in the air - and no story....! There is a private site somewhere in Docklands (which could the one known as Vanguard) - but I can't see it listed anywhere. Not even in "Farm Strips" :-)
Try asking the CAA because they gave approval a few years back.

[AlanM]

The Vanguard site is in the Isle of Dogs. I worked a Star Speed from Blackbushe in to there today. However, the traffic always goes to and from a Private Site in Kent - so I am not aware of it being used by anyone else other than the same guy. There is also a fairly regular drop off in St Pauls area. (Near the Honourable Artillery Company's barracks)

Other HLS traffic I worked in the zones today went to Battersea Heliport, Battersea Power Station and some military traffic into Army barracks.

Oh yes, there's always quite a bit in to Buck Pal/Ken's Place if you can get approval!!

I take it you are worried about the Specified Area. As you know only aircraft on Heli routes or with the Authority of the CAA are allowed in there if Single Engined. The only way I can think of around it is if you are close to the edge of the Area as you only need to be able to alight clear of it!!

Good luck

[sycamore]

Jelly- PM, ...and ,no fuel!
Syc:O

[DBChopper]

So what is the Vanguard site then? Is is the name of a company, or the helipad itself? Just interested...

By the way, AlanM - are you one of those very nice people on Thames Radar then?

DBChopper
:cool:

[Training Risky]

I've parked a Griffin overnight at Northolt (as military traffic). I'm pretty sure it would be available to civil RW guys too, as it seems they let just about any old 'C' list celebrity go through there as FW pax.

On second thoughts, it is a long slog down the A40 into town.:bored:

[AlanM]

DB - sure am!

and 119.9 - LHR SVFR

(Take cover!)

[jellycopter]

Thank you everyone for your helpful replies. I will certainly be looking into the Vanguard option as it sounds ideal for the docklands. Such a shame we can't use London City. J

[AlanM]

I asked about the Vanguard at work yesterday.

Nobody (inc LCY tower!) new where it was exactly - the radar returns disappear nr the IOD reporting point!!

Good luck

[The Nr Fairy]

I saw the "H" for this place when I was up in Docklands at a customer site.

Check Streetmap (http://www.streetmap.co.uk/newmap.srf?x=536750&y=180250&z=1&sv=536750,180250&st=4&ar=N&mapp=newmap.srf&searchp=newsearch.srf) for a geographical location - the site AFAIR was just not (or was it south) of the WestFerry roundabout - more or less smack central in the map.

If there's one of you bods flying down that way today, can you have a quick look ? :D

[Michael Jupp]

Vanguard Holdings Ltd, 188 West Ferry Road, Millwall, London, E14 8RZ

Grid Ref: 372786, situated on the north side of the River Thames on the south-west edge of the Isle of Dogs, within ½ mile of Canary Wharf
08:00 – 20:00 hours on Weekdays and Saturdays – 09:00 – 16:00 hours on Sundays

Ofice hours
Mondays to Fridays, 0900 hours - 1730 hours, call Vanguard Head Office on: Telephone 020 8846 8000

[AlanM]

Thank you

from an enlightened Thames/SVFR controller!

[old heliman]

Remeber that the site is not licensed so the CAA will need to give a Permmission fron Rule 5 to land there

[DBChopper]

AlanM,

I know this wasn't the point of the thread but a big "hats off" to you and your very patient colleagues on 132.7 and 119.9 who have helped me in "WW" up and down H4 more than once.

OK, enough grovelling, now back to the thread. Interesting one, this... Anyone know who G-TATS belongs to? It lands in the grounds of Battersea Power Station and I spied it from the train this morning. Even better - anyone fly it? It's an AS350/355, not sure which.

DBChopper
:ok:

[headsethair]

G-TATS
AIR MEDINA LTD
191 VICTORIA STREET
LONDON
SW1E 5NE

(sounds like one of those addresses people register their cars to.....and never get tickets...)

Single Squirrel

[AlanM]

Shocking hijacking of a thread - but thanks!! :)

Air Medina fly in fairly regularly - S/S as said. Battersea love working traffic they don't get paid for!!!

Any spare sewats on WW????

[ShyTorque]

AlanM,

I concur with DB about the good job you and your colleagues do for us rotary jocks. Ta! :ok:

We must have spoken on the airwaves often, I fly one of the larger machines usually asking for non-standard arrivals and departures to and from EGLW. :O

BTW, what "avoids" NW of EGLK? They are only posh folks with a telephone. Only joking! :p

[AlanM]

I am gonna come in here more often!

ShyT - oddly enough - I am just out of the avoids!! (nr St Neots school) I only get bounced when you recover to the Bush from the NW - and you are aiming for my house/chalk pits!!

Which S76 do you fly then? We must have spoken at some stage!

PM me if you don't feel brave enough to say - have a few Q's for you guys!

[DBChopper]

AlanM,

PM me with your e-mail address - I'm sure I can come up with an empty seat...

DBChopper
:)

[ShyTorque]

Alan,

Check your pm.

[Simon_Catlin]

I've dropped an R44 into Northolt once in a hurry when I got caught in a Thunderstorm. Shame was they were closed though.

Having some RAF MP come at you asking questions about why you landed there with his hand on his hip, just above his revolver was a little un-nerving, especially to the three ladies I had with me.

Took my particulars (:O ) and I left when it stopped throwing cats an dogs down. Never heard anything after that.

Bet my files in now well and truely marked at '5 and SB.

Simon

[divepilot]

The HLS is in the "Specified Area" so you will need a Rule 5(1)(c)(ii) Permission from the boys in the Belgrano - or else you may be in trouble. You can get the Permission for single engine hels. :ok:

[AlanM]

I think I know what you mean, but as you are allowed on the river in a single, why cant you just fly into the Vanguard without speaking to the men from Gatwick?

I thought that the Vanguard was right next to the Thames?

:confused:

[divepilot]

Rule 5(1)(c)(i) states that you may not fly over a congested area below 1500 ft above the highest object within 600 m of the helicopter without permission from the Belgrano in writing.

H4, which Vanguard is on, has a height of 2000 ft - so no problem with the rule for overflying the site on H4.

Why, I hear you cry, therefore can I fly along other Helilanes below this height? The answer lies in Rule 5(2)(a)(i) & (ii) which say that the provisions of Rule 5(1)(c)(i) do not apply when flying on a route notified or SVFR. Both these apply to the Helilanes in the London Zone.

So - no problem in landing? Sadly yes as by reading further into Rule 5(2)(a) you find that the waiver that the provisions do not apply is invalid if the helo is landing or taking off.

Phew!!

The upshot is that you DO need a Belgrano permission to land at Vanguard.

Don't shoot me - I am only the bearer of the bad news you did not want to hear.:ok:

[MPR]

G-TATS (AS350BA) Air Medina Ltd. = Marquis of Milford Haven? Potential developer of Battersea Power Station into a tourist attraction\residential development along with someone from the far east I believe (don't quote me). White "H" to south of Power Station regularly used by TATS, not sure that it's open to other heli's though.

[Tallguy]

I've sent Twin Squirrels into Battersea Powerstation quite a few times recently for a client who knows the owner, we have tried to use it on other occasions by asking the client to ask the owner and every time the owner has come back with a big fat no, so unfortunately I think unless you are doing specific business with or for the owner you can safely cross the Powerstation off your list.

[Speed of Sound]

About 2.30 this afternoon, two civil (ie. no military markings) helicopters flew in very close formation from South East London and stopped about half a mile from Canary Wharf facing it. They then flew round the Canary Wharf towers and then off towards the south of central London again in very close formation and stopping dead occasionally, for up to a minute at a time.

Lost sight of them about 3.00. Any idea who they were and what they were doing?

SoS

[Lowinverted]

Sent via a City of London circulation list this afternoon!


The City of London Police is currently deploying officers on the five City
bridges that provide access to the City of London, with colleagues from the
Metropolitan Police providing valuable support from the air and the river.
This overt police action is part of a pre-planned operation to deter,
disrupt and detect all forms of criminal activity within the central London
area.

[AlanM]

Nothing exciting - just an A109 and MD600 doing some air to air photography - out of Denham.

Shan't bore you with the callsigns!

[Speed of Sound]

Thaks Alan.

Thought it must have been filming of some sort. When I first saw them hovering just to the south-east of Canary Wharf, it did send a chill down my spine!

SoS

[robpow]

I've been noticing these as well over the past week or so, hovering fairly low around the North Greenwich peninsula and then disappearing off in towards central London. A minute or two over the Thames south-east of the Dome and then over the A102 Blackwall Tunnel Approach. I couldn't make out any markings but it did appear to have a camera dome underneath it.

[headsethair]

Castle Air - using Denham as a staging post.

[HALF A PILOT]

No it's not castle air.I think you will find it is a pair of MD900 exploreres and a MD 600. operating out of Pinewood studios, since last Tuesday and flying through the night right up until 4 and 5 AM. Mainly in the west of Pinewwod on H10 ;)

[Hover Bovver]

I think you will find castle air are involved in some of it, and it does have Md products also.
Regards
HoverBovver

[AlanM]

Half a Pilot

I can tell you that one was G-TELY and that is an A109 registered to Castle Air. I remember writing the strip as Northolt co-ordinated them coming out of the Denham ATZ.

I can even remember making them squawk 7037!! :)

[Woss goin on..?]

To put all your minds at rest.......!

Wednesday pm: MD600 being filmed by Castle Air 109 G-TELY over H4. Also 2xExplorers in Pinewood area again filmed by G-TELY in the evening.

Thursday pm: A109 being filmed over H4 by G-TELY

Friday eve/night: 2xExplorers and AS355 filmed by G-TELY then ground based filming of Explorers up to 4am at Pinewood area.

For a movie due out next year.

It looked cool. :ok:

Ciao!

[digidave]

Thanks for all the responses to SoSs original question.

I was sitting under a tree just beyond the NE end of 06/24 yesterday pm and it's great to find out what some of the aircraft I've been watching were doing.

Also, I hope my wife sunbathing directly under the flight path didn't upset any of the pilots operating out of Denham yesterday.

dd

[Autorotate]

Are we talking another James Bond movie here ?

:E

[Hover Bovver]

Not quite a James Bond movie, but along similar lines, Im surprised as the filming is for Part 2 with Part 1 not having aired yet!

[headsethair]

New SVFR freq for London

125.62

[idle stop]

Been in the EGTT daily NOTAMs for a while now......nice to know that the AIS website is working OK.
Anybody tried the Wx and Notams via www.phd.nl/aviation/wx ?
Gives a good selection of charts and the other briefing info free, uncookied and generally quite fast to navigate. Usual disclaimers.

[ShyTorque]

HSH,

All they need now is enough staff to man it......


Merry Christmas to all London area ATC folk including those manning LHR Special, Northolt, City and Thames...and thanks for your sterling efforts to get we heli pilots where we want to go despite the constraints you are working under! Ta! :ok:

[headsethair]

LONDON : the world's greatest capital city.....

....but not today, 19/12. See NOTAM below - this is becoming a regular problem. The new SVFR freq today contains a pre-rec announcement.

FROM 03/12/19 08:30 TO 03/12/19 13:30 A3313/03
E)DUE TO ATC STAFF SHORTAGE NO SPECIAL VFR SERVICE WILL BE PROVIDED
IN THE LONDON CTR ON 125.62MHZ.
HEL TFC INBD TO HEATHROW, NORTHOLT, LONDON(BATTERSEA)HELIPORT OR
HAYES SHOULD CONTACT THAMES RADAR ON 132.7MHZ.FIXED WING TFC WISHING
TO LAND AT HEATHROW SHOULD CONTACT HEATHROW APPROACH ON 119.72MHZ.
SERVICE WILL BE OFFERED ACCORDING TO FLIGHT PRIORITY AND CONTROLLER
WORKLOAD.
FOR ALL OTHER QUERIES, CONTACT LONDON TERMINAL CONTROL CENTRE

mmmm...0830-1330....can't be the staff party......unless it was last night. Happy Christmas to all at London ATC & Thames Radar. :O

[Jerricho]

The NOTAM kinda says it all. Staff shortages have plagued Heathrow Tower and Thames/SVFR all summer, and unfortunately it's about to get a little worse.

[Gonzo]

This morning we had two sick.

[Bright-Ling]

Jerricho - how is it getting worse? Now that SVFR is within the TC Heathrow Group surely things will improve!!!!!

I think SVFR has been closed every day this week. The DAP's in tray will be full after Christmas.

[Jerricho]

Hey B-L,

I would have thought the split between TC and over the road MINUS the non-availability of AVA's would be a little problem. Maybe I'm wrong (as per bloody usual!)

[Bright-Ling]

Surely not!

BUT - a little birdie from TC Ops tells me that 2x LHR TC ATCO's per watch were going to be used for SVFR.

(getting 2 willing to do it could be the tricky part!!!)

B-L

[Jerricho]

I'll do it!!! ;)

[Bright-Ling]

Cool. Only 9 mad people left to find.......

[Heliport]

headsethair

There's your answer.

Heliport

[Helinut]

Why is Special so unpopular for ATCers??

[FNG]

Dear Wobbletoppers, I am looking for possible helicopter pickup sites in Central London (my senior clerk is treating his wife to a bling-tastic birthday present, which includes a rotary flight).

I am aware of the Battersea site and, using the search facility in this forum, have found details of the Vanguard site near Canary Wharf and of the private De Beers site at Holborn. I have also seen reference to a landing site at the Press Centre close to Fleet Street but have found no details of this. Is anyone aware of any other usable landing points in or close to the City centre? A schlep out to grotty Elstree is not so attractive.

Many thanks for any suggestions.

[Heliport]

Battersea is as close to central London as you'll get for your purposes. It's only about 15-20 mins into the centre depending on time of day.

[FNG]

Thanks Heliport. I thought that would probably be the case.

[shshelicopters]

hi there
yeah battersea is the best bet but there are 2 sites to choose from.
you maybe aware of the heliport but there is a small site inside the power station, i maybe able to get detals for you.
email me here and i see what i can find out.

[FNG]

Thanks. I have sent you a PM.

[AlanM]

If you are looking for a site in the docklands you could try the Vanguard (just north of the Isle of Dogs RP) or the Excel Centre just NE of LCY airport.

[FNG]

Thanks, I knew about Vanguard already, but they require twin engine and so won't accept a Jet Ranger. My colleague has now arranged to use the Battersea site, which has apparently reduced its evening landing charges.

[AlanM]

Good - was down there on Tuesday..... nice bit of new tarmac since my last visit. Hopefully Weston are making things really work. Talk of a new ATC tower thingy that will allow the controllers to see the traffic.... which seems novel!

My colleague has now arranged to use the Battersea site, which has apparently reduced its evening landing charges.

Hope the said colleague's wife doesn't find out the reduced cost - shame to reduce the bling factor!!! :)

[AlanM]

Don't forget that the zones are PPR today (4th June) and tomorrow (5th June) for the Epsom Oaks/Derby. Transits are subject workload!!

More details in the AIC Supp:
Epsom AIC Supp (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/sup/504015.PDF)

Also during Ascot Week expect even more restrictions (15-19th June)
Ascot AIC Supp (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/sup/504016.PDF)

enjoy......... (you will need to log in to the AIS website)

[sheenboy]

who 'polices' helicopters around the approaches to Heathrow? I regularly see them flying across / between / alongside aircraft coming into Heathrow, closer than I would think is safe. Who looks after this / what are the rules??

[Mr_Grubby]

Sheenboy.

The helicopters will be under the control of Heathrow Special VFR. When they need to cross the runways at Heathrow they will talk to the Tower. The rules about height and routings are very strict and safe. You need to speak to the Heathrow Director who is the expert on these maters.
I will PM him.

Clint.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

Hi Sheenboy. Mr ex-colleague Mr Grubby suggested i take a look at your post.

Helicopter operations within the London area are strictly controlled and, with one or two exceptions, take place on accurately defined routes. Those you see under the approaches to Heathrow will be vertically separated from the commercial jets above with never less than 1,000 feet between them. Over central London the Heathrow inbounds will be around 3,000 ft and the helicopters down around 1,000 ft so there is plenty of room between them.

The rules for helicopter operations within the London Control Zone are laid down the in the AIP.

Hope this helps but email me direct at [email protected] if I can answer any more queries.

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Hi Heathrow Director and all

I understand from what sheenboy has said to be the crossing of the airport by helicopters at the thresholds ( am I correct sheenboy) , I was at the visitors centre last weekend and watches a precession of helicopters during the day
which I found facinating

From that a couple of questions

1 can any helicopter pilot with a PPL use this route? as it seems to me that a very high standard of airmanship is required

2 what is the prefered crossing procedure
as I presume a TCAS warning will be caused on each crossing

Golf -India Bravo

[Squadgy]

can any helicopter pilot with a PPL use this route? as it seems to me that a very high standard of airmanship is required

Your suggestion being that PPL(H)'s airmanship aren't of a very high standard ??:hmm:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

I misunderstood; thought he meant a bit further out! Helicopter crossings are under the control of Heathrow Tower and are usually carried out in good visibility to enable the controller to apply visual separation between traffic. All the info is in the UK AIP, which is readily available on-line. I'll try and copy the relevant paragraphs and post them on here in the next day or two..

[Gonzo]

Regarding helicopters at LHR.....

Every so often we have police helicopters flying along the northern and southern perimeters. Yes, they appear close, but we only do this under certain cloud and visibility limits. We pass traffic information to every a/c, telling them where the helicopter is, and at all times we make sure the controller has the helicopter in sight.

Other helicopters crossing the airfield follow a procedure laid down in the AIP. Again, this is a 'good weather' procedure. The helicopter will be talking to the person controlling the landing runway, and he/she will identify a gap where it will be safest to cross the helicopter. He'll tell the helicopter to report when he is visual with the a/c that he is planning to cross behind, that done, the ATCO will warn the next landing a/c that a helicopter is crossing in front of him.

If the weather is not good, and the helicopter HAS to cross the airfield, rather than route around, then we need a big gap in the landing traffic.

PPL(H)s can cross Heathrow. However, I would advise that they know the AIP procedure inside and out. We find a great diversity of apparent ability in following the procedure, and it has been known for ATCOs to turn helicopters away if they have any doubts as to the pilot's ability to get it right. I would recommend any PPL(H), or anyone, who hasn't done the crossing procedure before to tell ATC, so then maybe we'll go for a bigger gap!
:ok:

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<PPL(H)s can cross Heathrow. However, I would advise that they know the AIP procedure inside and out. We find a great diversity of apparent ability in following the procedure, and it has been known for ATCOs to turn helicopters away if they have any doubts as to the pilot's ability to get it right. >>

Hear hear! I don't know who you are Gonzo but were you there when this one happened: PPL in a Strimmer (R22) was told "After departing xxx cross 27L, etc" and we lost sight of him.. The Lighting Op suddenly hollered "He's on 05 by the southern dual". When we told him to cross 27L he thought he had to land and air-taxi across!!!!

[Gonzo]

Nope, I arrived in 99....still wet behind the ears!

Never heard of that one. It is fascinating seeing how the geographical location of Sipson, Bedfont etc changes from day to day!

Ugh, R22 crossing the field with a strong headwind....... you start to imagine you can see it tacking against the wind!

[GOLF-INDIA BRAVO]

Squadgey

No I`m not saying that PPL`s are not of a high standard, but i`m sure I would not attempt to fly that until I had plenty of experience of working in a tight area with a lot of traffic around

Golf India Bravo

[sheenboy]

I originally meant the approaches to Heathrow but the replies here spark another question - why would a 'copter HAVE to cross Heathrow as opposed to route around it?

[Robbo Jock]

Sheenboy: it's not so much HAVE to. Crossing Heathrow is actually a very interesting and exciting experience, and one of the reasons I chose the 'routes when I used to take my mates up.

You need to have your wits about you.
As a PPL, it's a damn' good idea to 'do the heliroutes' with an instructor, to get the routes and radio sorted before trying it yourself. It's also a good idea to phone Heathrow ATC before launch: "I'm thinking of coming through at <time>, routing <whatever>, is there anything I should know?" and you'll get a briefing on your route, with the advantage that when you call them for zone entry, they'll have an idea of who you are and what you want to do, so they'll be ready for you.

My old favourite, when I used to fly out of Redhill, was West along the M25, zone entry at Oxshot, North over Sunbury Lock to hold at Bedfont (or Dual Taxiways, depending on clearance), over the top past Sipson to Notrtholt, East along Hanger Lane to the Gyratory, then South to join the Thames at Kew (down to 750 feet by here), then East along the Thames to the Dartford Crossing ('cos it's hard to miss :D ) and then right to follow the M25 back round to Redhill. Interesting for the passenger, busy on the radio, a challenge to fly accurately, but essentially easy - the only difficult bit was remembering when to leave the security of the M25 and strike off across country to Redhill ! :O

[Whirlybird]

I flew the heli-routes with an instructor as a fairly new PPL(H), and we did the Heathrow Crossing. When we called the Tower, the first thing they asked was whether we had done it before, and my instructor said he had. I rather got the feeling they might have turned us away if we hadn't. Anyway, we approached on the specified route, and were then told to hold. This is very easy in a helicopter, which can go at almost any speed, so we watched the landing aircraft, and were then asked if we were visual with the 747 on final. We said we were, and were then cleared to cross after he landed.

It was all absolutely clear what was required, and it wasn't difficult in terms of either flying or airmanship. Any PPL(H) should be able to do it, although going with someone else for the first time is obviously a good idea, in a fairly high workload environment where you need to follow instructions that closely and make sure you don't make a mistake. Having said that, it's a great experience, doing it for the first time. I'm sure it looks scary to onlookers, and as though the aircraft are very close together...it isn't and they aren't.

[Hover Bovver]

Sheenboy,

I think you will find it is safer for them to route the helicopters across the thresholds, as although it seems close it is a definite gate, were you know were to oppsing aircraft will be , because a; the planes have to land and take off from the runway! B; Even the most short sited of helicopter pilots should be able to see the thresholds and the fuel farm. Wereas if they were routed away from the field you would have to go miles away to get adequate safe separation.

I would also never hear a bad word said about the controllers at Heathrow, I have been in and out of LHR many times and they have always been superb. (It is actually easier and quicker than going in and out of Southampton in a Heli.)

[Flying Lawyer]

http://img48.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/Heliroutes_Tower_Bridge.jpg

[Pat Malone]

On May 15th members of the Helicopter Club of Great Britain flew Heathrow ATCOs on the London Heliroutes - a regular event which helps both sides understand the imperatives of the other.
There were 16 controllers (they draw lots) in seven helicopters, including EC120s, 44s, a 206, an AS350 and a Gazelle. The ATCOs get a great deal from it, especially an understanding of the workload on a single-pilot helicopter. And it gives them a whole new persperctive on their place of work.
It's also excellent public relations, not only for the HCGB but for all helicopter pilots.

[Fright Level]

Low level flying ban for London

From 27 October, aircraft and helicopters will not be able to fly below 1,400 feet unless they have been given security clearance 28 days in advance.

Link to BBC News article (http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/uk_news/3684672.stm)

[pilotwolf]

Saw similar on Ceefax but can't find anything on NATS or CAA site unless I m not searching for the right keywords....

Anyone have link to the circular? This potentially wipes out some of the helilanes....

PW

[Devils Advocate]

Please run this by me again; i.e. just what is this new rule supposed to prevent ? ..... and just to show what a 'kin dream world our politicos live in, we've got:It said that the transport secretary "deems it necessary, in the public interest" to restrict flying "on behalf of the Metropolitan Police for reasons of national security". and Flights to and from Heathrow and London City airports are exempt, as are police helicopters and certain other authorised aircraft.andAirspace can be closed anywhere in the UK at a moment's notice in response to a threat.Err, is it me or does this seem a bit ill-conceived ( much like the rest of the airline / airport security measures ) ?

I.e. How is one meant to tell a real police helicopter / aircraft from a fake one ? At any one moment in time, just how is Mr.Plod meant to know and address who is legitimately operating above the Capital from who is not ? Just how does one ‘close airspace’ ( other than with fighter aircraft ) ?

Imho, this is has about as much to do with counter-terrorism or ‘national security’ as does fox hunting and WMD's ( aka, Weapons of Mass Distraction ) !

[ATCO Two]

The information has been taken out of context. There are three new designated areas over Central London which are restricted up to 1400ft to helicopters and fixed wing aircraft. This will not have an appreciable effect on low level operations in the London and London City Control Zones, since ATC does not normally issue clearances in these areas below 1500ft anyway. There may be a minor effect on traffic spotters, but there should be little impact on the heliroutes. Since the airspace in question is Class A and Class D, pilots are required to contact SVFR or Thames Radar for an ATC clearance to enter. Therefore all traffic in the London area will be known to these agencies. Any unidentified traffic is tracked on radar, and appropriate action taken.

[ShyTorque]

ATCO 2:

<Any unidentified traffic is tracked on radar, and appropriate action taken.>

Which presumably means subsequent legal action against the pilot?

Not a lot of use if he has already crashed into a high-rise building or Buckingham Palace. This makes no sense to me and seems like a panic reaction by someone who doesn't understand the problem or has been told to "DO SOMETHING!" - so it has, for a nice tick in the box. :confused:

[birdbrain]

Please correct me if I'm wrong, but I was always under the impression (need to checkout my PPL books again...) that 1500ft. was the minimum legal alt. required over a built-up area, or large crowd/gathering anyhow, with 500 ft. elsewhere..... !:confused:

[Llademos]

Is this anything to do with the 'shock horror' story recently (and well covered in Pprune) about a reporter hiring a helicopter and going over London?

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<How is one meant to tell a real police helicopter / aircraft from a fake one ? At any one moment in time, just how is Mr.Plod meant to know and address who is legitimately operating above the Capital from who is not ? Just how does one ‘close airspace’ ( other than with fighter aircraft ) ?>>

Strange comment from someone who cliaims to be an "airline pilot". As my buddy ATCO two has said, ATC has radar and knows who is there and who is not supposed to be there. Nothing moves over central London without some sort of ATC clearance. Areas within Controlled Airspace can easily be "closed" and it is fairly routine stuff around London for all sorts of reasons - security "incidents" and the Opening of Parliament to name but two. It's NOTAM'd and ATC prevent any aircraft from entering. That's why it would be extremely easy to spot an intruder. What happens thereafter would be up to the "authorities" but there is nobody in this world who can prevent another 9/11 over London - it just is not feasible, given the very short timescale in which such an incident could occur. Even if fighters could be scrambled in time (which I doubt) are they going to shoot down an aeroplane over central London?

As for Mr Plod.. Half the calls we used to get a Heathrow were from the police asking what a particular helicopter was doing over Buck House, or some similar high-profile place... you're right - the police helicopter.

[Juan Smore]

All the info is contained in AIC (Mauve 134) 91/2004 which is available on the ais website.

Three restricted areas are being established around Hyde Park, City of London and the Isle of Dogs the upper limit of which is 1400 ft AMSL. These areas do not affect helicopter traffic on route H4.

The conditions applicable to flight within the Restricted Areas are contained in AIC (Yellow 148) 87/2004, again available on the ais website.

Hope this helps.

[ATCO Two]

ShyTorque,

You ascribe too narrow a meaning to the words "appropriate action". Enough said. And believe me, the original airspace restriction proposals were far more draconian than those that will be implemented. Whatever our feelings about the reasoning behind the decisions, we must accept them and work with them.

[Devils Advocate]

Heathrow Director - I think you might have taken what I was referring to slightly out of context as, ( aside from questioning the nature of my employment ), you've proceeded to raise the very concerns that I too have about this.

I.e. the fact that you ( with your radar ) might indeed know who is supposed to be ( or not ) in various bits of the London TMA and / or associated airspace, but that knowing such will not prevent somebody with intent from commandeering ( legally or else wise ) an aeronautical conveyance ( small or large ) then careering about overhead the Capital city and / or spearing themselves into the any building of their choosing.

Veritably, the law abiding people will indeed obey the law and some people might indeed find themselves prosecuted by it; but it’s the other buggers, the really dangerous ones, who we need to protecting from and this new edict (imho) does not offer much more in the way of significant protection from what we’ve had previously, i.e. a 9/11 could still, relatively easily, occur in London – regardless of airspace restrictions & edicts from Whitehall.

[AlanM]

It shouldn't affect too much - how many fly less than 1400ft over the built up area anyway?? (apart from the Copper/HEMS etc)

[greenarrow]

Where this will hurt will be for the girls and boys inbound/outbound from Battersea on Direct tracks or via Brent in their twins. Also for those inbound/outbound on H4 having to hold for City when they are on Easterlies and the weather is marginal. All the Non Standard Flight clearences are also changing on the 20/10/04 (Whiskey numbers), so operators be prepared. Good to see there was consultation on this!.

[AlanM]

Why will it hurt the boys and girls coming in from Brent to Battersea - the clearance is LEVEL AT 1500 feet?

It will definitely affect the NSF operations - not sure how you plan 28 days in advance for a task which could be very late in coming.

[ATCO Two]

Hi greenarrow,

Direct track clearances are not given below 1500ft in CTR East, the restricted areas go up to 1400ft, so where is the problem? There may be slightly greater delays on H4 when City are on Easterlies and the weather conditions preclude VFR, but otherwise there will be limited impact.

[greenarrow]

Think about it, 1500ft no descent until almost in the Battersea overhead, No cruise climb to be level at 1500ft. It will be circle to climb in the overhead. Ali Paly inbounds and out bound will have to be aware of the restrictions sometimes asked by Thames and City not an easy task when the pressure is on. And no doubt our friends in the glass house will find ways of chasing a prosecution. :uhoh:

[CaptainFillosan]

And since we all know that 1500ft is the ANO legal lower limit over a built up area. How, apparently recently, did an Islander do banner towing over London, at apparently, 1000ft? Isn't that a case to ponder? Isn't a potential 700kgs load a worry for Mr Plod or anyone with security worries? In my view this view from on high has no meaning or purpose.

I agree with DA in his wise words. Good points there sir.

Btw HD I can tell you that DA IS an airline pilot. Known him for years.

Oh and one more thing HD you quoted this:

It's NOTAM'd and ATC prevent any aircraft from entering. (London).

I have a great respect for you and your mates but you can't - can you. Not really. Not if somone is determined.

[HEATHROW DIRECTOR]

<<I have a great respect for you and your mates but you can't - can you. Not really. Not if somone is determined.>>

No, ATC can't. I believe I made that point when I said nobody in this world can prevent a 9/11. However, under normal circumstances ATC can refuse clearance and 99.999% of pilots would accept that.

I didn't mean to doubt DA's bona fides... it's just that I've heard pilots ask such amazing questions that I misunderstood. No disrespect intended.

[AlanM]

Maybe I am showing my ignorance here, but BRENT-LW crosses just to the Western extremity of R157 - and according to my map from Mauve 134 - means you are clear of R157 with 1.5 miles to run to the LS.

Therefore, given the extra track mileage for a right/left base final (not massive I will concede) means that you have about 2miles to drop from 1401 feet to landing.

Is that unworkable?

Again, showing my ignorance, but can you not make 1401 feet after 1.5-2nm from take-off?

I am sure there is someone here who was around when the specified area came in to play. (apart from ATCO Two!) :) Interested to hear how that was dealt with. (when was it brought in??)

[sickBocks]

Birdbrain

with an SVFR clearance you can elbow the 1500' bit but not the glide clear.

sB

PS: The Lea Valley aint a legitimate place to land in a single in the event of an engine failure as per one of the GASILs from last year.

[CaptainFillosan]

HD, no need to worry. We know you, and where would we be without you. In my case 'would have been' without you. You know what I mean.

[headsethair]

This is more than bizarre. What exactly do they think they are achieving with this ? I can only assume that they think these moves will protect certain areas. So - let's all assume there's an infringment. Let's all assume that the ATC screens show a problem.

What then ?

If it's the bad boys, they will carry on unimpeded.

If it's the good guys, they will get prosecuted.

Hrrrrrrmmmph! Where the hell is the sense in all this "security" rubbish ?

Bit like travelling on commercial airlines. You go through all the checks, as a passenger, they ensure you're not carrying anything you shouldn't be. Then they allow you into the shopping mall on the otherside of security where you can buy explosive (perfume and other alcohol) and igniters (batteries) and a selection of "weapons" - and then get onboard with no checks.

Was at Zurich last weekend - there you can buy a Swiss Army knife just before boarding!

[AlanM]

HSH

I pretty much agree with your sentiments - but it IS here (or soon will be!) - so the question is not "is it worth it?" but "Is it workable?"

[headsethair]

AlanM: of course it's workable - because people like you have the ability to work closely with heli pilots and thread us through.
My point (and that of nearly everyone here) is that this is yet another cack-handed piece of legislation which does not achieve its aims.
And the cynic/realist in me says we are just a few steps away from total H4 closure.
Then what ? Ban all trucks bigger than vans ? Ban all people with strangely bulging overcoats ?
I'm getting a fed up with these idiotic non-solutions which appear to be the product of political rather than public service minds.
Like Brighton this week - a 3.5nm radius TRA up to 3500 ft. Controlled by the Sussex Police. So - along comes an aircraft at 3600 ft.......or 1000 ft. Doesn't matter - the TRA won't stop the situation.
Same applies with the new London Restricteds - 1400 ft. For what REAL reason ? Becuase it isn't security.

[Helinut]

I had a feeling this sort of garbage restriction was going to arrive eventually. As you might expect, given the lack of knowledge of those making the decisions, we have a set of restrictions that appears to be doing something, will inconvenience some law-abiding people, but will have no practical risk reducing effect. At the same time, other more serious threats of terrorist action continue without any restriction.

The people making these decisions do not understand the risks they are trying to control or the means by which they try to control them. Unfortunately, they also choose not to ask people who do know.

The helicopter industry is an easy target for such nonsense because it is a cottage industry with no clout.

The fact that the threat is tiny and the proposed precautions provide no real protection at all is simply ignored.

As one of the ATCers has said, the only thing is that it could have been much worse. The height limit at 1,400 ft and excluding traffic on H4 means that much "normal" traffic is not affected. The "special flights" will be very difficult to organise - why 28 days notice for goodness sake? The other aspect is that it will encourage those with 1,500 ft clearances to Battersea etc to maintain 1,500 ft when not able to remain VMC, but "they" were never worried about flight safety anyway......

It is exactly the same nonsensical "logic" that gives us the totally pointless and worthless restrictions for helicopters around some prisons. If they want to stop people being lifted from the exercise yards, string a load of wires across them. Otherwise forget it, cos this sort of adminstrative "restriction" will never stop the bad guys or allow any action to be taken in time.

The other aspect is that every time these stupid additional restrictions are imposed the terrorists are winning.

The trouble is we can see the nonsese that this is, and agree it is pointless, but no one will listen.

[206 jock]

Apparently, there's a new helipad opening in London's Docklands area...I guess that's Docklands in the widest sense, as it seems to be near the new turbines at Dagenham.

Still, nice to see a new facility opening up. Let's hope it gets a bit of traffic and that the operators don't fall into the cash cow trap.

[AlanM]

Great.

Hope they don't want to get in or out when LCY is busy!

[headsethair]

There's a very useful pad near there - on the north bank as well. Was used by the owner of the waste/recycling site. Have opped there with permission. Just outside the LCY zone.

[mickjoebill]

Not good news for filming assignments. Are camera ships exempt:)

Will it be possible to "book" permission in advance as required, for say 3 days at a time? May give us half a chance to have a fair day.

How can we possibly know what the weather will be like 28 days in advance?



mickjoebill

[headsethair]

I hear now some sense has crept in. Apparently Capital Radio's Flying Eye didn't fancy filing individual applications for each day it operates, 28 days ahead!
And some of the twin heli operators have been asking for blanket exemptions. Seems there's some back-tracking going on amongst the desk flyers.

[Helinut]

Had a quick look at the website - precious little aviation detail.

AlanM's comment about location re: London City (which seems pretty sensible, given the helipad's location), prompts me to hope that someone with aviation knowledge is involved in this new venture.

[Hilico]

Dagenham? Don't know if I'd want to use it - probably come back to find the machine up on bricks with the skids missing...

[206 jock]

Yes: website is minimalist, to say the least.

A quick look this morning gives an indication of the landing fees. Sadly, looks like they're smoking something.

Still, during October, you can land free for the first time. After that, £125 (50% normal charges!!!) and £75 per hour parking (50% normal!!).

So, I might pay a visit...once....in October...

I presume that for those fees, they are supplying a limo to get you into town and a slavering GSD to guard the precious metal from the itinerant hillbillies that frequent that part of the world.

[Juan Smore]

The helipad is unlicensed.

There is no ATC, RFFS, Marshalling or fuel.

Parking is available for a maximum of two helicopters at any one time.

It restricted to a maximum of 10 movements per day and only one movement permitted per 15 minute period.

It is only open 0730-1930 Mon-Fri.

The normal landing fee is £250 (flat fee) and parking is charged at £150 per hour or part hour (all plus VAT).

They don't take cash, credit cards or debit cards.

The Ops phone numbers appear to be mobiles.

However, complimentary tea, coffee and soft drinks are available.

mmmmm.........................................

[magbreak]

Juan Smore, don't overlook the "limo" from the helicopter to the reception building a journey of some 1 minute

Oh and the £150 parking per hour or part thereof ...a minimum of three hours.:bored:

[Juan Smore]

And car parking is available for up to 50 vehicles........errr.......why???!!

[AlanM]

The overworked and underpaid of Thames Radar know nothing about it yet - well nothing formal! (as don't City Airport)

(have seen the high-tec website though!!):cool:

[206 jock]

I'll tell you what: if this is a success, I'll be opening 'London North Helipad'.

Situated just an hour north of the metropolis and with an infrequent bus service into Baldock, you can land in my field. No ATC, marshalling, but fuel available at competitive rates.

If you land while she's there, the wife will even make you a cup of tea and maybe run you into Stevenage, if she's going that way. Gotta be a winner!

And only half the charges of London Docklands helipad.

Sorry guys: nice idea but doomed to fail, unless I'm much mistaken

[Pat Malone]

I wouldn't be too sniffy about the £250 landing fee.
The August issue of the AOPA magazine General Aviation had a feature on the GA terminal at London City, where the cheapest landing fee is £875. They're doing excellent business, taking traffic that could choose to land at Luton for £170.
Dagenham is clearly after similar meat.

[AlanM]

But Pat, given the service that is received, that price seems fair!!
(obviously not a heli price though)

:)

[magbreak]

To give them their due they are selling it as a Helipad and not a Heliport. Differences on a postcard to.....

Pat, would you pay £875 to land in a muddy field next to the Thames after a lengthy hold whilst ATC land the rush hour at City, (I am assuming AlanM as you know about these things that the heliPAD will not be getting the priority!).

If the price was considerably cheaper in view of their facilities being offered then it may be looked at, but charging just a fraction under what Battersea charge and offering evenless than battersea (if possible) I think they are more hopeful than expectant.

Is it not about time City looked at getting helicopters in there? After all they have jets in and out ow which wasn't on the planning permission... Just a thought.

[AlanM]

Actually getting aircraft in and out low level in the daytime wouldn't be too much of a problem - from the Eastern zone boundary.... in the daylight (VFRvIFR - Traffic Info)

When SVFR (night/IMC) could be trickier - but not impossible as 7nm spacing is standard on runway 28 (unless no departure in the gaps then we use 3nm/vortex spacing)

As for priority...??

It clearly says in CAP493 (Manual of Air Traffic Services part one) that VFR and SVFR flights are not to hinder IFR flights.

we shall see......

[helicam]

In response to an earlier question yes the chaps running the helipad do have Aviation Experience they are the same crowd that owned the "Flightworks" group!!!!!!!!!

[Tony Chambers]

i think this ties n with the pants airfields post. What exactly do heli drivers want in the way of service and operations at heliports or helipads.

[AlanM]

Saw the first in and out today.

Couldn't possibly tell you who though!!! :)

[ThamesOperations]

Here's the "story" from the Desk-Flyers.

The Secretary of State deemed it necessary to have some form of control over low flying aircraft over the seat of government etc.

Historically, Thames where constantly being pestered by security organisations over the identity and task of helicopters flying around London.

So, in order to provide a "Known traffic environment", the restricted areas were established. The security services would then have a mechanism whereby they would already expect said flight before it happens - therefore reducing the "trigger happy" response to a potential threat.

Originally the restricted areas covered the majority of London, but were cut down to manageble sizes. Also, they started off with a vertical limit of some 3000ft! That too was chopped down to reflect general traffic operations. Those responsible for the introduction of these areas carried out a full consultation with NATS on how best to manage this requirement. Many meetings were held between parties to identify a logical way forward.

Operators were fully briefed on the requirements within these restricted areas. They were also made aware, at the outset, that blanket exemptions were available. CAPITAL, LNX, etc etc have all applied for said blanket exemptions (these are renewed yearly). All the operators have to do is make 2 phonecalls (instead of 1) to inform the security services and ATC of their request. Job done.

No backtracking, no changes of mind. Simply a pragmatic approach to instigating the requirements as set out by the Secretary of State.

Although nothing can stop an unauthorised penetration of these areas, we now have mechanism to allow those on the ground with the "hardware" to identify "Friend or Foe". Action can then be taken immediately on any percieved threat.:ok:

[Helinut]

TO,

Thanks for your explanation of things from a desk. I don't think it was your desk that was being criticised. It is clear that ATC and those that represent ATC have done a great job, on behalf of aviators and helicopters in particular, in negotiating a system that is workable (for most cases). I think we appreciate that and are grateful.

I believe the weakness in the overall argument lies in your last sentence: How long does it take a helicopter to descend from 1,400 ft to ground level - less than 1 minute? How much response is there going to be in that 1 minute? None.

It may make someone feel good with the illusion that they are doing something, but the real risk reduction is effectively zero.[But then the risk from a light helicopter is pretty trivial anyway].

Can I take this opportunity to thank you and all your ATC colleagues for all their hard work in helping us to get to our destinations safely :ok:
Merry Christmas (unless you are working?! :rolleyes: :sad: ) and
a Happy New Year

[AlanM]

unless you are working?!

only if there is an AAVA (overtime!) in the offering..... :)

[DBChopper]

London heliroutes - VFR / SVFR..?

This question arises out of a discussion I had this afternoon prior to taking the R22 for a play in the nice weather. It happened to the guy flying prior to me on a jaunt up H4 from the Isle of Dogs to Vauxhall and back. Arguably, it could be posted on the ATC forum, but I know some of you nice Thames Radar guys pop in here, so here goes...

Prior to entering City's zone (class D) he made the usual position report and request for Special VFR. Having squawked the assigned code, he was cleared to enter, and read back, "cleared to enter the City Zone, Special VFR (etc.)" The reply was, "negative, you are cleared VFR ." He confirmed this and carried on with his flight.

His question to me was, how can he be cleared into the zone VFR as opposed to SVFR, and in any case what would the difference be? He is aware of the visibility limitations of the clearance, and the vis was fine today. In addition, he had already phoned Thames prior to departure to let them know his intentions. All I was able to do was scratch my head - we went through Pooley's to double check and are none the wiser.

Over to you guys and gals - can you be cleared VFR as opposed to SVFR in these circumstances, and if so what would the difference be?

Thanks in anticipation...

DBChopper
:ok:

[headsethair]

DB: Special VFR only applies in Class A airspace - in other classes it would apply in IMC or night.

See: http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=64&pagetype=90&pageid=2151

Here's the relevant bit. Great day wasn't it ?
6.3 Special VFR Flight
6.3.1 A Special VFR flight is a flight made in a Control Zone under circumstances which would normally require
the flight to be made under the Instrument Flight Rules (IFR) but is made under special conditions and with the
permission of ATC instead of under the full IFR.
6.3.2 The circumstances referred to in paragraph 6.3.1 are:
(i) At any time in a Class A Control Zone;
(ii) in IMC or at night in any other Control Zone.
6.3.3 The following conditions are applicable to all Special VFR flights:
(i) The pilot must obtain an ATC clearance and comply with ATC instructions;
(ii) the pilot must at all times remain clear of cloud and in sight of the surface;
(iii) the pilot must at all times remain in flight conditions which enable him to determine his flight path
and keep clear of obstacles;

[DBChopper]

Headsethair,

Thanks for that - just had a good old read. Looking back, the times I have received a SVFR clearance must have related to the Class A bit, further along H4 past Battersea and into Heathrow's zone. Just goes to show it's worth actually thinking about the clearance rather than just repeating it ;)

And yes, it was a great day - seemed like the ideal excuse to go and play over the marshy bits of North Kent - no householders to annoy and loads of blue sky :ok:

Cheers,

DBChopper
:cool:

[davethelimey]

Feel free to hoof this off to somewhere else but:

All this hoohah about whether a single engine prop can glide clear of civilisation in the event of an engine failure is interesting, but as far as I'm aware a helicopter with an engine failure will have difficulty doing anything other than plummeting.

Are helicopters that much more reliable than props that they don't need the rule?

[Jerricho]

Trying to recall in my beer fuddled brain, but there are certain areas of London where only twin engined helicopters can fly direct and not on the designated helicopter routes.

[GT3]

ditto (beer fuddled) and ditto (the specified area i think)

[Pub User]

Dave

Plummetting is not quite correct, but the 'glide' angle of an autorotating helicopter is considerably steeper than that of an aeroplane.

Conversely, the space required for a helicopter to land after an autorotative descent is much smaller than that required by an aeroplane. The helicopter pilot can flare off almost all of the forward speed before touching down.

The 'specified area' of central London has designated routes for single-engined helicopters, which keeps them over areas judged to be suitable for an autorotative landing, without overly endangering those on the ground. Practically speaking this means that helicopters flying over the very centre of London have to fly along the Thames, and in the event of an engine failure are obliged to ditch in the river.

[headsethair]

Misunderstanding persists. ALL helis have to be able to land without endangering life or property in the event of an emergency. The "glide clear" is not a requirement for helis. That's for planks.
And the majority of inflight emergencies happen to twins. See quarterly CHIRP publication by CAA.

[ATCO Two]

Pub User,

According to the Amendment to Rule 5, as from 1st April 2005 the Specified Area over Central London no longer exists.

Further to my last, we are seeking clarification about the Specified Area over Central London. The reference may just have been moved to the ANO (CAP 393) Section 5.

[effortless]

Not a rotorhead myself but when Sussex police changed their mount some years ago I was told that it was because that single engined helos were restricted to higher altitude over built up areas. Not v. effective for chav chasing.

[ATCO Two]

OK, I can confirm that the Specified Area over Central London will continue to exist in its present form. The only change is that the reference to it will move to CAP 393 (Air Navigation Order) Section 5.

[etd]

Landing site in London?

what's the restrictions for landing a heli (Twin) in to a private site in Camden NW1 8

[Sabre Zero 1]

Camden is in 'The Specified Area' of Heathrow Control Zone. It is possible to land at a private site there, but first (and several weeks before your flight) you must apply to 'London Terminal Control Centre' for a 'Non Standard Flight Notification' number, which, on the day of the flight, you must call up and activate.

But even having done this, you are still subject to Heathrows' ATC and as such you may be told to hold, take a different route or even abort your flight at the very last minute and with no prior warning!

Basically, you can do it, but there's paper work involved and the possibility of being buggered about when you get there.:ugh:

[etd]

Thanks Sabre for the info, thought there would be a lot of paperwork involved

[Sabre Zero 1]

No probs. PM me if you want me to email the application form to you.

[Helinut]

There are 2 issues, only one of which may be related to ATC. My contribution comes with a date warning, as I may be out of date, but:

1. It used to be the case that no special flight permission was required from ATC for a flight which was just a simple landing and/or departure at a private site in the Class A London Zone. (This is different from say a photographic flight which would require a special flight clearance) It MAY be that the rules have changed, but I do suggest you check.

2. The other issue is compliance with Rule 5 of the Rules of the Air. This
a) has absolutely nothing to do with an ATC clearance; and
b) has also recently changed, because Rule 5 has changed.
I will check later re: the new Rule 5, but any landing or take-off from a private site within a congested area would require specific permission from the CAA (under the old Rule 5). I am fairly certain the CAA would not remove this requirement, but this needs checking.

[Having now checked, the rule is now called the 1,000 ft rule, but it will require an exemption. And just in case, there is any doubt, a twin engine hele will be needed.]

[ShyTorque]

You will need a CAA exemption / permission for landing in a congested area, which costs about £90. The permission will specify conditions that have to be met, for example the aircraft will have to be operated to Class A performance standards at all times, in the interests of avoiding risk to those on the ground in the event of an engine failure.

[McHover]

etd, as an ex Camden resident I am fascinated to know where your proposed LZ is... Just being nosey.

Having watched the deBeers chap drop in on a regular basis to EC1 I would so love to see some more activity over town.

Good luck. I'll wave you in if need be!

[AlanM]

Actually, a delay due to other traffic (Northolt/Battersea/Police/Helimed) is more likley than pure buggeration.

(But can be arranged if that floats your boat!!)

[teeteringhead]

Also prudent to pre-warn the local Old Bill; if it's an unusual occurence they will be deluged with reports from Joe Public.

[Helinut]

Saturday 2 July - Central London Airspace Restrictions

If you were planning to fly in Central London on Saturday 2 July, take a close look at the NOTAMs. A new one appeared mid-afternoon today (Friday), advising of a 3 mile TRA around Hyde Park. Virtually no one is allowed in, and part of the heliroute H4 on the Thames is to be closed!!

:mad:

[AlanM]

Unles you are of course 1 of the 25 or so heli's flying in overpaid pop stars!

Do they have a freelane or something?

MAKE POVERTY HISTORY...... my ar$e!

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

I don't get this lots of helis go into the london heli port on a daily basis and they dont close the heli lanes,they can't be ased about the noise over the music so why close them ?................

[AlanM]

Off routes in the LCTR = SVFR = Standard Separation = 3nm

Invoke some new rule = Freelanes = It all now becomes legal!

A mockery of a sham or a sham of a mockery!?!???

[oldgit]

Having been involved in the planning for yesterdays event perhaps an explanation is in order.
The provision of a helipad in Hyde Park was very much a last minute thing. To enable safe operations it was deemed simplest and safest to instigate a TRA around the area with access restricted to emergency helicopters and those authorised operators who had a legitimate need to be there: ie filming and helis using the heliport. Each operator was required to receive a written clearance from Flight ops to operate. Bearing in mind the rules require full Class a Performance for t/o and Landing in a congested area the helicopter types able to operate were understandably quite limited. The heliport had a total length of 350m.
There was no freelane instigated, rather all traffic within the TRA was controlled by Battersea tower, (rather well I think all participating pilots will agree!
What may seem to many a draconian rule put in place was done prely on safety grounds as the CAA, NATS and DAP were under pressure to come up with a workable plan within a very short period of time. Thursday 30th JUne was the day the planning meeting took place with all permissions in place with the participating operators hands by 1600 Fri 1st.
The only effect on the GA community was the unavailability of H4 for sightsseing trips for the duration of the TRA. Battersea continued business as normal.
For once it would be nice if the efforts of our much (and often warranted) maligned authorities could be appreciated.
A sensible result enabled us to oprate safely in and out of the event in the full glare of world publicity.

[Daifly]

Hello all,

Having been at the heliport yesterday and, as always when it's better to let rumour get in the way of fact, I think I need to clear up a few things.

The use of the helipad was limited to people appearing in the concert who were then going off to do other Live 8 gigs, or to continue their concert tours having given made the effort to come to Hyde Park; it was not a "come on in if you want to avoid the queues" heliport - in fact it was the first ever heliport in a Royal Park (except for Royal transport) so there were a huge number of obstacles to overcome and it was only the teamwork of everyone involved, the Royal Parks, the CAA, Battersea ATC, Thames Radar, the helicopter operators, the fire crew, the helicopter and passenger marshalls and Gama, the heliport operator, that made it possible.

It cost the organisers nothing to have in place as everyone was giving their time either at cost or free and in the majority of cases that was the same for the helicopters themselves.

The TRA wasn't just for the heliport though, the vast majority of the traffic was the two police helicopters and the BBC live link which were in the air for the duration of the event. Indeed they were the first reasons for the TRA, not the heliport.

I agree wholeheartedly with oldgit - the heliport, and indeed the events themselves, were only the result of teamwork and everyone working with the sole aim of providing coverage to the events - and that took having artists being shuttled from gig to gig to get the media exposure that was the root purpose.

I'm proud of what we all achieved yesterday and I hope that the H4 users group can accept that this was a very special one off.

[JerryG]

Just watched the edited highlights down-here-under and wanted to say congrats to the team who shot the aerials. In a world generally full of wobbly hand held news items they looked absolutely fabulous. PM me if you want a job!

Well done also to all the people that Daifly lists. Pragmatic and professional people pulling together to get the job done - goodonyer. Let the Euro Buros (pun intended) take note.

To those Londoners who are squealing like little piggies over the removal of their "rights" to one tiny piece of UK airspace for a couple of hours, you'd better be praying that Paris wins the Olympics on Wednesday. Athens featured a 45nm total VFR lockdown for over four weeks. Get real - get onside - "Lead, follow or **** off.

Cheers
JerryG

[Brilliant Stuff]

Thank you Oldgit and Daifly for this marvelous insight of the real going on's.

It sounds like herculean effort has been exerted into making sure everyone can have their pie and eat.

I am proud of you all!! It's also nice to hear that the official bodies are being painted in a positive light.

[Helinut]

Jerry,

Ian Evans says Hi - he appreciates the complementary remarks. The benefits of a big ball Wescam are not to be sneezed at.... :). He would be happy to fly in Oz for you, so long as you pay the positioning!


When I started this thread, I did it simply to try to draw attention to the promulgation of the TRA etc in the Notams with very little warning for other users. As others have explained there was a reason for this: it was all done at very little notice, and CAA/DAP/NATS and Battersea did a great job in the time frame to be able to put somethng in place at all. :ok:

There were some other operators who had planned to fly in connection with the event who were unable to, but in the circumstances, a good compromise was achieved, in my view.

[newswatcher]

oldgit do you know why it was necessary for the police to overfly throughout the concert? Was there an alert with regard to possible disruption by terrorists? With the exception of some of the VIPs and Pete Docherty, we were all remarkably well-behaved, in our alcohol-free "rest of humanity" zone!.

[AlanM]

Given that a police helicopter is over London for most of the day anyway, and the fact that 200,000 people are crammed in a park, watching a pseudo-political rally, with 2bn people watching a concert aimed at the leaders of world's richest countries, suggests that there may have been a heightened secure level!

Just a guess......:)

[JerryG]

Congratulations to London - let the Games begin!
(Hope you're all in a positive frame of mind?!)
Cheers
JerryG

[mickjoebill]

London restrictions post bombings

Can anyone refer to or hint at an intelligent reason for the flight restrictions that has been in place for the past three days to news aircraft over London?

In times of crisis a few extra eyes in the sky immediatly after an event is surely (sometimes) benificial to all concerned?

There are only two or three networks that can film over London anyway at a height well clear of medivac and police.


Commments?


Mickjoebill

[headsethair]

And they've expanded the TRA to cover the Lea Valley. Latest NOTAM says active until 11z Monday.To answer your question - very unusual circumstances. I understand that the initial "Exclusion" was ordered at Govt high level - which hasn't happened for years.
Surely the "event" has happened ? There's nothing to see. The Tavistock Sq bus site is largely tree covered and everything else is going on underground.
London HEMS alone did 32 sectors on Thursday - the Police must have done a lot more time in the air. I'm pretty certain that the addition of G-OITN and Skynews One to the mix would not have assisted in any way. Additionally there was a lot of mil traffic in and out of various barracks and Royal flights and Blair moving back and forth.
Battersea has stayed open - and I can only guess that H4 was closed past Vauxhall to IoD as a security precaution due to sensitive areas beneath.
Skynews got lucky having returned from Edinburgh on the Wednesday ready for coverage of the Olympic arrival. They got in before the TRA went up.
BBC repositioned Newsflight One urgently from north of Edinburgh (G8) and had it (G-PIXX) up for most of the afternoon.

[AlanM]

As HHH says, the closure of H4 is probably to the sensitive nature of what is below.

The TRA is such that it effectively stops transit aircraft, as Battersea/LCY/LHR can fly through it.

[mickjoebill]

Could I have a go at summing up the possible scenarios for the TRA being implimented thus:

1/ Political;
keeping media out of the way (for usual reasons)

2/ Security;
keeping civvy aircraft away for security related reasons, ie disclosure/fiming of secret stuff.

3/ Physical Security
Banning civvy aircraft for fear of use of AC in attack.

4/ Sound aviation based reasons;
Congested airspace atc workload risk of collision.

5/ No specific reason:
it was just done as it was in someones emergency planning procedure?


Any other categories?





Mickjoebill

[helicopter-redeye]

Seems a reasonable thing to do given the circumstances.

Surprised there was not an immediate and more draconian restriction as after 9/11

[AlanM]

Exactly, the procesures for turning the LCY zone Class A and the standard TRA up to 6000 feet were not exercised.

At least we can keep traffic that needs to be there moving.

[Letsby Avenue]

As usual certain people were taking liberties and getting in the way.... I heard that Sky were being particularly annoying and as we all know - one out - all out!

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

I felt sorry for the old bill who spent all day hovering over Heathrow on Thursday - they must have been bored ****less !!

[AlanM]

all day hovering over Heathrow

All day???

[headsethair]

Letsby: as you appear to operate from Scotland, I can only assume that you have reacted to a third party telling you something that may have happened. And I'm pretty certain you will be aware that evidence along those lines is not proof.
Sky reacted very quickly to the initial news that the tube system was suffering power spikes. They were flying over London before the TRA was even established.
By lunchtime a "sort-of" TRA was established - not under police control and NATS seemed to be unaware of its existence. But everyone respected it and the 3 media helicopters operated from the edges of the TRA. It is an enormous piece of airspace, so there is no way that any traffic can "get in the way" of the emergency services.
I have close experience of the attitude some Police ASUs have towards the media helicopters. They regard them as an annoyance. Only last week at G8, a colleague was told by a police observer that media helicopters get in the way of AWACs planes. According to the police the AWAC was at 10500. The G8 TRA topped at 3500 - so any media helicopter would be at 3600. In the way ? And police helis aren't ?
The public pay serious money for emergency services and police operations - they have a right to see how that money is spent. At times like last Thursday, with immense confusion emanating from ALL corners, the public needed clear information. They needed a feeling of security. So, some live shots from a tv helicopter showing what was really happening would at least serve the public with some truth above the confusion.
Dp you really know that Sky "got in the way" or are you simply redigging the ditch that the police have put between themselves and the media ?

[delta3]

Without any prejudice to the seriousness of the attack, and the great loss to many people,

it has become very predictable that AFTER the attack restrictions come in place, something like putting a burgar alarm after the facts.

Perhaps

- looks good that the governement does something, be it a little late
- good moment to take away some remaining civil liberties

D3

[Letsby Avenue]

You asked and I told you - Don't shoot the messenger...:rolleyes:

[headsethair]

Sorry Letsby. That's a bit lost on me.

[effortless]

5/ No specific reason: it was just done as it was in someones emergency planning procedure?

That is the most plausible in my limited experience.

[headsethair]

10nm RADIUS centred on Charing Cross to 10000 ft AMSL.

H4 closed east of Battersea, H10 closed east of Gutteridge, H3 closed east of Sunbury Lock.

NOTAM J3335/05 & J3334/05.

Until 1100Z 22/7.....possibly.....

[rotorcraig]

For some reason NOTAMPLOT is only displaying as 1nm radius?

Q line problems maybe?

RC

[SoundByDesign]

Hi,

Heard a Quantas helicopter towed banner flew over London yesterday, did you get any picyures?

G..

[CRAZYBROADSWORD]

The flag heli is from cabair and it was ment to do the same thing today and tomorrow but with the TRA it may not happen.

[AlanM]

Saw it over Vaux Bridge when I was at Battersea on Tuesday of this week

http://www.pbase.com/kbmphotography/image/46433943.jpg

http://www.pbase.com/kbmphotography/image/46433944.jpg

[headsethair]

EG R160 (The London Specified Area)

This is the new name for The Specified Area - NOTAM says active from 4th August and refers to AIP ENR 5-1-2-3 for details.
Looked today online, and there's no mention of R160.
Called AIP bods who said they'd seen the paper version. However they weren't certain about the online version.
How are we supposed to keep abreast of changing rules if these people can't update their website ?
And how valid is a NOTAM which gives a duff refer link ?

The link : http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/html/aipenr.htm

[AlanM]

Whilst this doesn't appease your understandable frustration, the rules for flying in TSA have not changed. Just the nomenclature! (in house joke:))

(well - not yet they haven't......... :()

[rotorcraig]

EG R160 is now defined in ENR 5-1-2-3 (http://www.ais.org.uk/aes/pubs/aip/pdf/enr/2050102.PDF) - see page 3.

EG R160 The Specified Area

The area bounded by straight lines joining successively the following points:

512912N 0001716W - 513420N 0001407W -
513318N 0000904W - 513409N 0000318W -
513130N 0000045W - 512645N 0000044W -
512712N 0000610W - 512515N 0001222W -
512854N 0001407W - 512912N 0001716W

excluding so much of the bed of the River Thames as lies within that area between the ordinary high water marks on each of its banks.

Up to unlimited
SFC

Except with the written permission of the Civil Aviation Authority a helicopter shall not fly over the Specified Area of Central London below such a height as would enable it, in the event of an engine failure, to land clear of that area. See also ENR 1.1.4.

Further information may be obtained from the General Aviation Department (for non-public transport operations) or Flight operations Department (for public transport operations) of the Civil Aviation Authority,
Tel: 01293-567171.
SI 964 /2005.
RC

[Three Blades]

I am concidering my first trip through London (with suitably qualified instructor) and have a question regarding H10.

Between Guteridge and Kew bridge, the route seems to pass over some heavily populated areas especially further east.
Now I appreciate that single engined helis are permitted on H4 on the basis that you ditch in the river in case of engine failure but what is the plan on H10 ? Is it really as built up as it looks ?

The other routes all seem to pass closer to parks/playing fields etc.

Thanks

[headsethair]

H10 is not as congested as you may think. It follows the A40 in with some good greenspace along the south side. Then it follows the west side of the North Circular to Kew Bridge - again with greenspace beneath you. And then you're onto the river - which isn't part of R160 (The Specified Area) so you are permitted to "alight" in the river.
There is no specific rule banning single engine heli flights over R160 - but ALL helicopters have to be able to alight clear of R160 in the event of a power failure.
Look in the EGLL listing of the UK AIP "Aerodromes" website for the full rules.

[Three Blades]

headsethair,

Thanks for the clarification on H10, I'm pleased to hear that there is a tad of green nearby.
I have taken a good look at the AIP stuff and read a lot of what is on this forum; hence my plan to take the instructor.

'alight' certainly looks better than 'ditch' !

Thanks

[Oogle]

Wow, by the sounds of it all you are in big trouble if you don't do the right thing.

I'm scared of trying it myself after hearing all this.

"Don't do this, don't do that, make sure you do this, if you don't sound professional they won't like you......"

PPL pilots take note - ATC is not a big bad monster. They are here to help and assist - as YOU must do when given a direction.

I have always found UK ATC extremely helpful.:eek:

[DBChopper]

PPL pilots take note - ATC is not a big bad monster. They are here to help and assist - as YOU must do when given a direction.

And they are fantastic! Ok, maybe a little scary, but the guys and gals you speak to when flying the heliroutes and in particular crossing LHR are some of the busiest in the country and are unlikely to want to divert 300-odd pax in a Boeing because I'm numptying around in me R22 ;)

I think it also bears remembering the privelege of being able to operate over London as we do, and not risk throwing it all away by bad airmanship, a fact recognised by the controllers and clearly by many posters on this subject.

That said, if you fellow PPLs have not done it, get yourself an instructor and a helicopter and go for it - the experience is unforgettable!
:ok:

[Goldenhawk]

Folks,

am piloting a twin-engined machine regularly to London (Battersea Vangaurd Elstree), however my employer has purchased a large site within the London CTR near Morden on H7.

Do I require permission to land from the CAA? and/or other Authorities? other than Special Branch/Customs

thx

[ShyTorque]

Presumably an exemption from Rule 5 (i) c, or whatever the EASA equivalent is, would be needed if the landing site lies in what could be described as a congested area.

[Figure Of Merit]

There's an extra clause in the April 2005 amendment to rule five that applies to landing off a Heliroute. It's in section (3) paragraph c.

(Link here) (http://www.caa.co.uk/docs/224/Rule%205%20amended%201%20April%202005a.pdf)

So I think you'll have to talk to the CAA.

F.O.M.

PS Where's Vanguard?

[headsethair]

Vanguard is a private site on the west edge of the IoD.
And agree - you will need CAA permission in writing for landing off the heliroute. You need GA dept unless you have an AOC.

[TheFlyingSquirrel]

Try the Krispy Kreme car park at Shannon corner ! I've been dreaming about flying in there for ages !

[helicopter-redeye]

Vanguard is a private site on the west edge of the IoD.

Do you mean West edge of the Institute of Directors on Pall Mall????

That would be a bit tight for a landing.

[puntosaurus]

As others have said, this hangs on whether your site is deemed a 'congested area'. If your site is defined as such then you need permission, if not then you don't.

Someone gave me a definition which I thought would be pretty arguable in court, namely that a congested area is anything in yellow on the 1/2 mill map. But recently a FIE(H) told me that the CAA argues that a golf course is a congested area ! Figure that if you can.

Best to get a ruling to be on the safe side - Call Bob Jones (AOC and PAOC operators) or Keith Thomas (Gen Aviation) on 01293 573528.

[aeromys]

Mmmmmmmmmmm...... Krispy Kreme......... if there was a landing site there it would be full of Police Choppers!

http://qd.typepad.com/27/images/homer20simpson.png

[AlanM]

H7 is in Control Zone Central, (That bit East of the Denham - Brooklands Line - but West of BNN143-Battersea-Due South)

This means you will need to speak to LTCC Ops about this.

Otherwise, no probs ATC wise. You will probably be expected to phone in first when you want to come out though, unless you can raise 125.62 on the ground.

[divepilot]

There are 3 parts to this:

1. London, under the Heli Routes, is a congested area and you will need CAA permission against Rule 5(2)(c) (the 1000 ft rule) to land unless you are using a licenced or government airfield.

2. You are not allowed to land off the heli routes, except at a licenced or government airfield, without CAA permission (Rule 5(3)(c)(ii).

3. If your site is in the Specified Area then you need CAA permission against the Air Navigation (Restriction of Flying) (Specified Area) Regulations 2005.

It looks as though you may need permission on all 3 counts.

Fortunately all are dealt with by the General Aviation Dept in the Belgrano.

[jellycopter]

From memory, I think the term Congested Area is defined in the ANO; I believe it reads something like 'Any part of a town or settlement used for Resdidential, Industrial or Recreational purposes@.

J

[JimL]

The ICAO and JAR-OPS definition is:Congested area. In relation to a city, town or settlement, any area which is substantially used for residential, commercial or recreational purposes.hence the comment about the golf course.

Jim

[Goldenhawk]

many thanks for all your postings, very helpful

Regards,

[CharlesDavid]

Team,

Does anybody have a contact number or e-mail for the Vanguard Helicopter site?

Many thanks.

[KEFALONIA]

Having looked through previous post on helipads in London, Vanguard has been mentioned. Does anyone have contact details on them inc any others.

Thanks in advance.

[SilsoeSid]

Vanguard Holdings Ltd, 188 West Ferry Road, Millwall, London, E14 8RZ

Grid Ref: 372786, situated on the north side of the River Thames on the south-west edge of the Isle of Dogs, within ½ mile of Canary Wharf
08:00 – 20:00 hours on Weekdays and Saturdays – 09:00 – 16:00 hours on Sundays

Ofice hours
Mondays to Fridays, 0900 hours - 1730 hours, call Vanguard Head Office on: Telephone 020 8846 8000



http://www.pprune.org/forums/printthread.php?threadid=90516

[SilsoeSid]

Thanks for that Sid.

No probs Kef, hope all went well.

:rolleyes:
SS



But then again there were thanks in advance I suppose!!! :hmm:

[KEFALONIA]

Cheers SS

I have been away and only returned last night.

Kef.

[SilsoeSid]

Now, where did that coincidence thread go??

;)
SS

[headsethair]

London CTR Review

Amongst the recommendations.....closing heli routes along the river to single engine helis when there are events taking place on the river.

London CTR Review Group Report

Here (http://www.caa.co.uk/default.aspx?categoryid=7&pagetype=90&pageid=5755)

[peachpilot]

And a new heliroute up the Lea Valley by the look of things...

[puntosaurus]

Interesting. I'd always assumed that the heliroutes were closed to general traffic on boatrace day anyway. Even if they're not formally closed I can just imagine the clearance "can you accept a delay of up to five hours at Gutteridge" !

I was a bit puzzled by this bit: 2.1.9 The varying meteorological criteria for helicopter and fixed wing operations within the London CTR was also highlighted and discussed. The fact that helicopter traffic could be operating on the same route with no forward visibility requirements (clear of cloud in sight of the ground) gave cause for concern, especially with regard to the IFR requirements of the airspace. We can't get into the london CTR without SVFR, and I thought that SVFR had a vis limit of 10km for PPLs and 3km for CPLs. However someone was trying to tell me the other day that those are fixed wing limits and heli SVFR vis is the same as VFR, ie coc/isos and vis approriate to speed. Anyone got a view ?

[headsethair]

Anyone got a view ?

Yup. It'll be either 800m or 3000m, depending on your licence. I think that's what the next round of consultation will say.