Merged: Embraer Jets for Virgin Blue?

[Eastwest Loco]

Just picked up a little whisper here on the sleepy isle that DJ are seriously looking at 100 seat Embraer regional jets no doubt to go head to head with Ratconnect on Australian regional routes. Most likely of the E190/195 family.

The source is nearly as reliable as the Townsville refueller.

If this has been floated around earlier, just ignore it - we only just got the 'lectric on and this new fangled stuff is hard to keep up with.

Best all

EWL

[Capn Bloggs]

Bring 'em on.:} :E

[Baxter Dewall]

Would be great to see, but, me thinks that anybody trying to start up a "new" operation under the current climate ie fuel or lack thereof, would be a fool.

[Yusef Danet]

from my contact Earnest J Sources that the VB board has signed off on 9 of the E-Jet series, first brace of which will arrive in the first quarter of the new year.

They look like a nice bit of kit, and with only 9, you wouldn't build a sim... bi-annual trips to Brazil, lads?

Not if I have to sign an AWA though. My bum still hurts from the last one of those.

[Warped Wings]

I've heard that the board meets next month to potentially sign off on the regional and international plans so we will have to wait until then.

[Eastwest Loco]

Baxter

One would think that it was tantamount to commercial suicide to enter even the better regional markets at this time, even with a stateofthuyart regional jet. However, when you look at the fuel surcharges lobbed on top of the fare that QF link enjoy, we have a happy hunting ground.

As eluded to in previous posts by eminent participants, current surcharges in many cases on a 75% load factor are MORE than paying for the total block fuel. Ratconnect is turning into an MMA/AWA - a jewel in the crown with the total removal of the fuel from DOC and in many cases a nett profit going towards the overall cost of the operation. Add the airfares from regional areas and you have a solid little earner.

A fairly happy hunting ground for a LCC too. No wonder DJ are keen, and then there is the added bonus of the feed onto mainline. Win win!!

I had not paid much notice to the jungle jet family, but on being spiked into action have found them aesthetically quite a pretty bird.

Looks like this rumour actually is of a quality that would be approved by the TSV bangwater reseller!!!

Best all

EWL

[coaldemon]

One would expect that most of the services for Dj done by the jungle jet would be on existing ports but with a higher frequency. i.e Maroochy, Ballina, Coffs etc. Obviously Syd.Cbr must be done for the chance at Government contracts but are they going to do the Business class thing or stay LCC? Now that will be interesting......................

[ozangel]

Coffs is doing quite well with 2 737-800s in a day... The direct melbourne is doing ok too i hear.

More frequencies on a smaller plane with higher loads, freeing up the bigger ones for longer / more profitable routes makes sense.

[sinala1]

From my understanding, the EMB190/195 have already been signed off on...

Although I will believe it when I see it!

[Eastwest Loco]

What scares me is that the town fathers of DPO and BWT who will no doubt hear of this when it hits mainstream media will be crawling all over the local papers and annoying the living suitcase out of the airline to include them in their planned route network.

A 100 seater in the Tassie regional market has worked, but in a galaxy far far away and in a time long past.

It will not stop the do gooders from making life hell with "pick me - pick me".

I can see a few regionals that will deserve and thrive on the full Brazillian though. Tasmania is not one unless the frequency is increased and the aeroplane size is reduced on LST and HBA - there is a good deal of logic in that.

Best

EWL

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

EWL
.
.. as I understand it (stand to be corrected though), VB (and others) loads outa YMLT are very nice (particualrly during summer) .... many locals enjoy (and therefore support) the 737/A320 services to ML, SY and BN!
.
.. what is the comparative envelope for the E series?

[coaldemon]

It is a jet and instead of 3 services a day they will get 6. People are happiest when there are no propellors to look at ....... No matter what reality says.....:ugh:

[Eastwest Loco]

Arrrrr Scurvy

The services indeed do entice the edges of the gene pool who would normally stay home and whittle to fly, along with those who would have anyway or those that must for business. Neither LCC ex LST has a perfect mix of flight times with the current schedule, however they are not ridiculous.

Smaller more frequent aeroplannes would restore absolute prime inbound and outbound times and would also better feed the oncarriage market.Assuming the DOCs of the jungle bunnies is same or lower than the 737 fleet, this can only assist in releasing the larger aeroplanes over peak times onto higher demand and yield markets.

Problem with the local market ex HBA and LST is that originating traffic is traditionally low yield or stay home.

Loads can be high, but the fare has to be placed in the right area to be sold. As such it is sometimes hardly worth the effort to operate the aeroplane.

Best regards

EWL

[coaldemon]

That is true East West hopefully the Jungle jets can actually carry some freight as this is where the airlines would make their cash. Just like the freight carrying capacity of the wonderous Crj , Whoops what do you mean politically incorrect ? But it was the right aircraft just ask Rod...............

[Capt Claret]

I had a quick look at a Jungle Jet when it transited through DRW about 2 years ago. From what little I saw I didn't think it was particularly well endowed, baggage/freight space wise.

[tinpis]

Now a good Queenair would do Tassy regionals nicely:ok:

sigh

http://www.montaguemillennium.com/images/founder/aircraft/civil/Beech%20Queen%20Air%2065%20Cockpit.jpg

[cunninglinguist]

Coaldemon, from memory when NJS looked at them they would'nt carry much of anything ( freight or luggage ).
Related to WA ops though, and as Bloggs will tell you, nothing can replace the Gas Chamber :}

[Casper]

You better believe it. They ARE coming.

[DJ747]

Do Qantaslink/Dash 8 regional operations charge a small fortune for flights - yes.

Would VB like a piece of that pie - yes.

Would the public prefer to fly on a jet - yes.

Has the VB Board signed off on the regional jet - no.

Will VB pilots fly the new jets - maybe.

Look on this site in 4 weeks when you can expect answers to all the above.

[Howard Hughes]

I'll add one...
Will people have to sell their souls to fly one of these babies? - YES!!:hmm:

[ccy sam]

DJ board signed off on the E190 about 3 weeks ago. Will be operating SY-CB before years end. Crewed by DJ pilots

[Scurvy.D.Dog]

EWL.. Tasmanians and North Islanders alike should have access to good transport between the islands... historically in TAS and particularly LT, the punters will fly dependant on availability, affordability and relative time enroute …. I do!
.
… if the E Jet is comparable with 737/A320 in these areas …. what’s not to like … particularly if frequencies increase!
.
... so how do they compare?
.
.. cheers :)

[GAFA]

I got a look at the demo a few years back and agree with Capt Claret, there is not a lot of room for baggage or freight. If you have anything more than 85% load factor, you won't get any freight on.

The aircraft also suffers at high temps and short runways. It's really only suited for legs between 400-500 miles and runways greater than 1700m.

However it is a very nice aircraft up front and in the cabin.

[rescue 1]

Will be operating SY-CB before years end. Crewed by DJ pilots
Hmmm...first of type, plus Crew Training on the E170/190 plus backfill on the B737. By years end?

KD made the same mistake with a very demanding introduction schedule. Hopefully Mr Godfrey et al read the autopsy.

[Eastwest Loco]

Yep Scurvy

The punters will like the frequency, but other posts elude to more logic than I could muster.

It has been stated that the initial route could be SYD CBR. Makes sense - frequency even if the Q400 is very nearly as fast. High concentration of larry the laptop only flyers on that run.

It appears to be a fairly narrow gutted afair with only .94 metre locker height and 3 decent bags across max. Not suitable for freight such as live crayfish or the like. Much better than the CRJ with its bizjet sized main deck locker but even with the double bubble fuselage I reckon a decent load of bags would pretty well blow it out.

Can't beat the A320/737 underbellies for a decent uplift capability when put up against a 2 2 config aeroplane. The Tas market is currently well served with these and the 3 holer poodling back and forward most nights.

The E Jets seem to have more than decent range, so a whole bucketload of possibilities open up.

Best all

EWL

[Led Zep]

Hey tinny, when/where was the pic taken?

[apacau]

Funny everyone's saying E190, because I have heard E170 from a couple of sources now, including inside DJ... Rumour only however...

[Eastwest Loco]

Quite likely Apacau

What I heard was Embraer 100 seater, and from a source loosely connected to but no longer in the industry. It appears, however to have wings.

The 70ish seater opens a whole different group of wax balls.

It not only lines up against the Q400, but also opens a lot of the Eeenie Weenie ports to a possible incursion.

(Reminds self to line up for the ground handling contract)

Best all

EWL

[Capn Bloggs]

Reminds self to line up for the ground handling contract
Hope you've got a good back, coz the baggage hole is pretty smal!! :ok:

[apacau]

Well, this was posted on the WA spotters groups. So just maybe the E170 AND E190 are bound downunder... More food for the rumour mill, anyway!

* * *
Subject: [SpottingWA] Virgin Blue Fleet additions

Hi,

New aircraft coming into the stables 2007-2009.

Embraer 170 Regional Jets (4x ), & Embraer 190 Regional Jets (21x) for
Regional services throught Australia.

International services:

B777-200 LR has been given the nod for International services to USA.

An announcement from Virgin Blue is expected mid September.

Embraer company demonstrator Emb-190 aircraft PP-XMB c/n 1900002 will
arrive in Darwin for an Australia wide tour in November.

* * *

[PLovett]

Now a good Queenair would do Tassy regionals nicely:ok:
sigh
http://www.montaguemillennium.com/images/founder/aircraft/civil/Beech%20Queen%20Air%2065%20Cockpit.jpg

tinpis

Now your showing your age if you can remember the TAA flights.

Damn...it makes me as old as well. :uhoh:

[cunninglinguist]

So with 40ish and 80ish seaters already operating on these routes and VB coming in with 100 seaters, are they going to ;

a) double the number of pax on those routes so everyone makes a profit

or

b) Just put another 100 seats on those routes ( that are'nt currently supporting 100 seaters ) and nobody makes money

If the answer is A, where do all these extra punters come from ?

[Big Hairy Potatoes]

I heard Aviation Australia have a SIM or cabin trainer for these babies in Vegas, is this true?

[sinala1]

I heard Aviation Australia have a SIM or cabin trainer for these babies in Vegas, is this true?

From what I understand/have heard, yes this is true - although checking out the www.aviationaustralia.net.au (http://www.aviationaustralia.net.au) website, there is no reference to the EMB cabin sim there - only B717/B737/B767, A320/A330 :confused:

There is reference to EMB120 Mechanical training, although that does not really help with the jungle jets theory does it

[KRUSTY 34]

Interesting times?

I was under the impression that the Virgin model was to only pursue routes that are profitable on a stand alone basis, and a large part of their cost control was the adoption of a single type fleet.

It appears that this philosophy that has served them so well is about to be challenged. Could be a very expensive exercise?

Also, what are they proposing to pay their drivers? I'd say it would be a given that very few current DJ pilots have any experience on the Jungle Jet. This would mean contract pilots, (at least initially), how many of them would be willing to relocate to OZ, and at what price.

Then what would be the offer to existing 737 pilots to come across? Ecomomies of scale would suggest smaller A/C less dough!

As I said Interesting times.

[MarkD]

Just like the freight carrying capacity of the wonderous Crj
Funny you should mention that :E

West Air Europe to acquire CRJ200 freighter (http://www.bombardier.com/en/3_0/pressrelease.jsp?group=3_0&lan=en&action=view&id=3544&sCateg=3_0)

[B772]

Interesting times?

I was under the impression that the Virgin model was to only pursue routes that are profitable on a stand alone basis, and a large part of their cost control was the adoption of a single type fleet.

It appears that this philosophy that has served them so well is about to be challenged. Could be a very expensive exercise?

Also, what are they proposing to pay their drivers? I'd say it would be a given that very few current DJ pilots have any experience on the Jungle Jet. This would mean contract pilots, (at least initially), how many of them would be willing to relocate to OZ, and at what price.

Then what would be the offer to existing 737 pilots to come across? Ecomomies of scale would suggest smaller A/C less dough!

As I said Interesting times.

Now that Brett Godfrey is a Director of a North American Airline with a similar fleet to Virgin Blue he is very aware of the sucess of Jet Blue with their A320 and EMB-190 fleet.

[drshmoo]

I flew on American Eagle from JFK to Boston (dont know code) on ERJ-135/145 and with a full complement of pax (in good weather too) about a quarter of the pax bags didnt make it on the flight. Not sure whether it was a payload thing or ****e house organisation. I understand the 170s are different all together but could anyone with EMB experience share with us their EMB experience reference pax no.s vs bags/freight etc
Also will the applications go through virgin or will it be link QF and QFlink with regard to recruitment and also moving between the two:eek:

[weasil]

The E190 is a great airplane for it's market. Very comfortable for passengers. More expensive to operate than the CRJ product with similar number of seats by about 30% according to our CEO. I fly on the Canadair side of United and they tell us that they have been very happy with both airplanes but that the CRJ is cheaper to run right now, which is why Delta put out a RFP yesterday to replace a bunch of their E170s with CRJ's. At least that's the way it looks like they are going to go, who knows.

One thing I can say about the 190, it's a big freakin airplane for a regional jet, I taxiied by one in Washington-Dulles the other day and was struck by how it was almost as big as the A319 parked at the next gate.

[Pete Conrad]

rescue 1, When KD operated the CRJ between SYD and CBR there was actually a notable swing by pax towards the CRJ over the Saab services. Infact, towards the end of AN, the CRJ loads were quite full between SYD-CBR. They were only introduced on the run in the last months of AN, so to say they were a failure on the route would be premature. The CRJ infact, after talking with some of the Canadian pilots who came out and flew it said they were money makers in the USA, not so with Ansett/KD as that was something to do with the ridiculous lease rates the AN executives signed.

[hoss]

Having flown both the CRJ and the Q300 on the SYD-CBR route, I can say without doubt that the prop will 'eat the jet alive' on this route. As for 'initial' passenger appeal, I think we can say that most would go for the jet.

I hope that DJ do well with the regional jet and will be applying when the time comes but I hope they don't think that this route is a winner for them without some careful marketing. They should do well on the 300+nm sectors against the prop.

Looking forward :)

[Captahab]

Dont ever forget that the Ansett goons managed to turn a profit making SAAB operation on CBR to SYD into a loss making debacle with the CRJ.
50 seats full each way could not break even when AN clowns ran it, they would have needed another 25 seats on the useless thing to make a profit.
Ahab

[No Further Requirements]

Regards jet vs props on the SY-CB runs, there are two important things to remember.

Firstly, the Q400's speed is almost that of a jet, so the speed thing really isn't an issue - it's just what type the punters like that will be the deciding factor.

And, because the Q400 (and the 100, 200 and 300) is a prop, it gets the almost direct track from SY-CB, not the big arc via WOL that the jets have to do. If CB is runway 30/35 for arrivals, the Q400 flight time would be just as good, if not better, than the jet as they can take RWY30. The jets have to take a long final for RWY35 for either noise abatement (daytime), or to enable a realistic descent rate using the ILS at night.

Just some things to think about regarding E-Jets on this route.

Cheers,

NFR.

[apacau]

NFR - from what I understand, runway strength limitations will preclude the use of Rwy30 at YSCB for the Q400s. No problems for the -300s and -100s.

Agreed re the additional track miles via WOL however.

[No Further Requirements]

Latest news I had is that the Q400s have a dispensation to use RWY30. Pretty sure they are using it.

Cheers,

NFR.

[Eagleman]

not so with Ansett/KD as that was something to do with the ridiculous lease rates the AN executives signed.

The rate was driven by the KD management of the day, albeit they were fully AN owned. DK was quite formitable and was his own man.

Interesting of course, the person in charge of the AN Network at the time was a gnome who subsequently left and took all his work to his new employer. Irish ethics! Is J* his reward?

[B772]

The rate was driven by the KD management of the day, albeit they were fully AN owned. DK was quite formitable and was his own man.

Interesting of course, the person in charge of the AN Network at the time was a gnome who subsequently left and took all his work to his new employer. Irish ethics! Is J* his reward?

The word at the time was that he resigned from AN just before he was about to be pushed. He then offered his services to QF and joined the many ex AN people there.

[podbreak]

As for 'initial' passenger appeal, I think we can say that most would go for the jet.



True, until they realise the Q400 (with all the noise cancelling mumbo jumbo) is quieter! Giddyup

[Pete Conrad]

Eagle, DK actually had the Saab 2000 on the go, I heard it was TJ who wanted the CRJ. Yeah, the gnomes reward...he must be an influential man!

[Eagleman]

Pete,

DK was very close to signing a deal with Embraer when AN stepped in. In fact, the aircraft was demonstrated at Wagga. I would be surprised if the Saab 2000 was under consideration. As for TJ, he actually resigned from the KD board because he didn't believe they could justify the purchase of the jets. He was replaced on the Board by the subsequent CEO, Ron R.

Bill Jauncey and Keith Heardman were seconded to KD to assist DK and Geoff with the introduction of the aircraft. CASA got very cold feet as to the capability of KD management. Ron R was put in as CEO and Bruce Byron was engaged as EGM Operations.

Sadly the business case for the jet was deficient as it failed to address a number of issues including the reaction of the tasmanian Govenment and the Canberra PS issue, viz, they required (wanted) J class on the jet!

[Pete Conrad]

Yeah I remember the uproar when the CRJ was actually replaced on the BNE runs out of CBR by the 146 in the final months of AN as a result of the government whining. The Saab 2000 was also demonstrataed here, I was told this was the aircraft DK was keen on but TJ thumped the table. Just goes to show how many sides of the story there are?

[flamingmoe]

Whats the latest`on the regional front for Virgin Blue? is it still all go?

[propje]

I've heard from a very reliable source that VB ordered EMB 190's, it's all go.......

[Pimp Daddy]

I've heard from a very reliable source that VB ordered EMB 190's, it's all go.......

Well, nothing announced here (http://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/announcementSearch.do?method=searchByCode&issuerCode=VBA&timeFrameSearchType=D&releasedDuringCode=3) as required by the Companies Act so your source probably isn't that reliable yet.

[Ozgrade3]

Baggage capacity for the EMB 190 is no problem.. If you know what you;re doing can squeeze in 80 odd bags on a Fokker 100 and still get 600-800kg of freight in compartments 1 & 2. All be it fairly dense freight.

Have bee in the EMB 170 Holds, and should be no probs at all + a half metro load of freight.

[Capt Basil Brush]

Word is the announcement has been delayed for 1 month.

Reasons unknown.

[sinala1]

Word is the announcement has been delayed for 1 month.

Reasons unknown.

Waiting for results of Tech/CC EBA votes? :confused:

Just a thought!

[Park n Shop]

Can anyone shed any light on the rumor V.B are getting ERJ-190's.
If this is true when will they arrive and how many?
What routes will they fly?
Are they excepting applications yet?
What sort of money will they offer experienced crews?

Cheers.:ok:

[sweetpollypurebred]

If the delay is due to the outcome of EBA negotiations,then any announcement is more than a month away!

[boree3]

According to informed sources ( BBQ mates? ) a meeting was held last week and the "Jungle Jets" are a goer. When, where and how often nobody knows at this stage but one things for certain, QantasLink and Rex are in for interesting times.

[podbreak]

Strongly doubt Rex will feel a lot of pain. JJs would be more suited to routes like SY-CB. Some Sunstate routes may be under pressure here, would really see the Q400 put to the test. As for Rex, I think they can breathe easy, at least for the time being. I could be very wrong though...

[Chocks Away]

About time we had the Jungle-jets over here... 'cause we've got Brazilians in Maroubra & Bondi Beach, Melbourne, all up the Queensland coast... they're everywhere man!

They ara coming ...and good luck to them:ok:

[greenslopes]

I agree "chocks away"
Ask any Afghan, a Brazilian couldn't be any worse than a "Bush"...............................Kadaching!!

[Capt Basil Brush]

There's already plenty of 'Brazilians' in VB. :ok:

[propaganda]

Heard a rumour some of the EMB 190's are planned for PB and the NZ domestic market.Could be competition for Air NZ Link.;)

[apacau]

Could the E190s do trans-tasman runs? If so, could open up some interesting opportunities! I wonder if they'd look at things like Norfolk Island, New Caledonia and places like that too. Maybe even Suva.

[robbo_vb]

First E170 entered revenue service with DJ today. BNE-CNS-BNE-CBR-SYD-BNE with 2nd E170 arriving in BNE for induction Another E170 and 738 due before end of year.

[littlehurcules]

Correct - another 738 is arriving very soon (VH-VUM)

As for service on the Ejet - i didnt think the CBR-SYD flights were starting until Feb 08.....

[robbo_vb]

Yeah thats correct, i couldnt remember what all the dates were but thats what the schedule will be. The 2nd E170 is heading to ADL and MEL, can't remember the exact ports.

[Yusef Danet]

2 x 737-800 arriving before year end, VH-VUM in Oct and -VUN in November.

VB also losing 2 now one later to PB.

No new routes this year. Until Syd-Cbr kicks off the E-Jets will fly existing VB routes.

[robbo_vb]

VUM has arrived and is going through or just had the LiveTV installation done. A team is heading to seattle next week to bring back VUN.

[robbo_vb]

Answering an earlier question, Yes the E170 will be ETOPS certified. But wont be used on international or NZ routes in the short to medium future.

[Dehavillanddriver]

sorry - the 170 wont be etops certified, but the 190 will

[blokehitchedwith2]

And VUM has not arrived as yet. It is currently at LIH.

[littlehurcules]

So we know that the Ejet is going to fly SYD to CBR/PMQ

There is talk of ABX and guessing many more ports to come in the not to distant future...

What about crewing the plane. Since most of these flights are looking at being out from SYD, are there many crew (current FO's on the 737) going to move to SYD on the Ejet ?

Is the money that much more?
Can they commute from their original home base (BNE/MEL)?

Interesting times ahead ...

Look forward to the next ports that will get the Ejet.:}

[F111]

Yes you can commute.

[littlehurcules]

How do you know you could commute?

When the Ejet is going to be doing regional flying (day trips i guess), that is going to make commuting kinda hard if you are based in another city or state (SYD/BNE/MEL etc)

[F111]

You commute home on your days off! All the flying will not be day trips.

[meagain]

Are there any DEC's on the 'Jungle Jet" ???

[coaldemon]

No all positions will be B737 F/Os upgrading.

[Chris Higgins]

I recently saw a JetBlue Embraer 190 in Bermuda, so they're obviously quite capable given the popularity and loadings out of JFK, not to mention the long taxi times. My guess is that the Embraer product will add enormous rural traffic through the cities that utilize the Boeing 737. This could totally demolish the competition. What's VB stock doing right now in all of this?

[Kiwiguy]

E-jets have very long ranges for their size and from quite short runways. My californian friend's mum (aka MOM) was a F/A on that route with A320s. It offers J/Blue increased frequency.