SkyAirlines land at EPKS instead of EPPO

[Ptkay]

The Turkish 737 from Antalia landed yesterday evening
at EPKS militarty base instead of EPPO Poznan airport.
(Flight SHY335)

In the EPPO charts there is a clear statment:

DO NOT MISTAKE KRZESINY aerodrome
13.8 km (7.4 NM) SE OF POZNAN / Ławica
WHEN APPROACHING RWY 29

Unfortunately passengers held for almost 3 hours by military.

For me the incdent is especially shocking,
because I often fly to Zerniki, which is a private airfield
within EPKS MATZ.

Krezesiny is seldom active and lots of private planes frequent
the Zerniki airfield, the pattern is within 25 approach of EPKS.

If this 737 was approaching 25 (so from direction Zerniki),
it could have taken some small plenes with her.
Also the wake turbulence could've killed somebody...

[Ptkay]

They landed "on time" 19:50 LT, but at the wrong airfield...

Full anti-terror procedures were applied, plane surrunded by armed military,
no information given to pax and families waiting at EPPO untill 22:00 LT.

Then some anti-terror units searched the plane, which eventually
took of 22:30 LT and landed safely at EPPO 15 min later.

:rolleyes:

[Dont worry]

Just for Info. What will possibly happen to the Crew ? Authority wise ?

[Ptkay]

No clue, but the incident seems much more serious, than expected.

As I wrote above, there WAS a Cessna on pattern in Zerniki at that time,
and the planes missed each other just by 300 m laterally and 100 m vertically.
(...just rumour from a witness on a Polish forum...)

I think, there will be a serious investigation into this incident.
The TWR at EPPO has no radar picture of the TMA since few months,
due to modernization.

I was flying EPBC-EPZG a week ago, and they couldn't tell me anything more,
than what was reported to them by other crews...
:sad:

[Ptkay]

On the web page of Krzesiny there is a nice report:

http://www.31blot.com/aktualnosci.html

http://www.31blot.com/aktual/2006/08-16/renegate.jpg

Some intersting parts roughly translated:

"...The Boeing 737 was parked on the tarmac, intesively illuminated and
put under careful observation.
The contact with the crew commander was difficult, because the lady
carrying the function of SKY airline capitain was in poor command of English language
and was showing symptoms of strong nervousness..."

"...the additional reason for extended safety procedures was the fact,
that radio transmissions from the cockpit were made by one of the passengers.
How was it possible, that in the pilots cabin a random
person was present, will be cleared by the Air Trafic Agency extensive investgation..."

No comment...

SkyAirlines next candidate for The Black List ???

[MaxBlow]

Iheard from a friend in that region that the crew has been grounded by the CAA for at least the lenght of the investigation.:rolleyes:

[threemiles]

http://www.31blot.com/aktual/2006/08-16/renegate.jpg

How come 737 stairs are available on a General Aviation field?

[His dudeness]

Ain´t a GA airfield, but a military base. Maybe they have stairs just in case ???

Did nearly the same thing years ago, in a KingAir. Pulled up because I could not see the football stadium you pass on medium finals, was told by EPPO "you are approaching wrong airfield" and "you are not the first to do so".

Was before 911, so I was sort of lucky not to become a potential terrorist.

Was in late afternoon,after a long day, was blinded by sunlight and didn´t care what the GPS told me.

Tough me a lesson. Feel sorry for the crew. Hope they go out of that without major harm...

[Coanda Effect]

Just for Info. What will possibly happen to the Crew ? Authority wise ?

Probably not much if they were a Turkish crew, loss of validation if they were a foreign crew!

[Ptkay]

As a PPL pilot flying often to Zerniki GA private field I would like
to stress again the hazard such false approach and landing creates for
the small airplanes in the vicinity.
Zerniki pattern is right on the approach to EPKS in its MATZ !!!!

There is no more official information on that incident available yet
in Poland, but I will keep you informed.

They HAVE to do something about it, to avoid such hazard in the future.

EPPO approach and Info still have no radar procedures. :mad:

I think a factor in this last incident was a similar incident
with a Cessna 172 training night-VFR approches to EPPO
and missing the field.

The lady controler was not allowed to give them suggestions,
although she saw on the radar screen what was happening,
since the radar system was (and still is) not certified.

She did warn them anyway, saved their lives
(thay were low on fuel and managed to do emergency
landing on a frozen lake instead of hitting the town),
but was later punished for the breach of procedures.
:ugh:

It sounds absurd, but so it is. :yuk:

After this incident (February) probably noone in charge of
approach was brave enough to interfere with pilots decisions
by this recent incident.

:ugh:

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

AFAIK, after the FEB incident, the ATC shutdown the radar completly - now, that's really stupid... :yuk: Especially that EPPO is very prone to this type of mistakes - when approached from the south (from CZE VOR), the correct runway is barely visible (especially if you don't know where to look for it), but you can see the big gray military airbase runway, telling you "Land on me!!" :} You better watch out:=

[planeenglish]

EUP20060817950047 Warsaw
PAP in English
1352 GMT 17 Aug 06

Text of report in English
by Polish news agency PAP

Poznan, 17 August: The pilot's poor
English was the cause of last night's
accidental landing of a XXXish airliner
on a military airfield in Poznan, PAP
learnt from aviation authorities on
Thursday [17 August].

The charter plane with Polish tourists
on board was headed for Poznan's Lawica
Airport but eventually came down on an
army landing strip in nearby Krzesiny.

According to Polish flight controllers,
the plane's female pilot obeyed all
instructions and should not have mislanded.

[vunzke]

The female pilot was not the captain but the F/O.

Here in Turkey the story was put in the Hurriyet (one of the biggest newspapers) with full blame to the "female F/O" with full face (and uniform) picture and name. Captain was only mentioned once in the text but the blame was put on "refusal of the pilot (referring to the F/O) to obey instructions of the tower" Fact is that the F/O was doing the RT so the Captain was most likely the PF........ nevertheless....not his fault apparently.

[Ptkay]

The "lack of language knowledge" was also mentioned in many Polish news.

As I mentioned above also after landing the military were not able
to communicate with the crew properly, until a passenger
was let into the cockpit to translate...
:ugh:

Regarding radar services at EPPO, I can only confirm,
flying there VFR few weeks ago, that also FIS has no services
available, even for the VFR advisory service, carrying
no responsibility for separation...

So probably the "uncertified" radars are also shut down,
as "Stuck_in_the_ATR" suggested...

:yuk:

[planeenglish]

until a passenger
was let into the cockpit to translate...
:yuk:
:ugh: :ugh: :ugh: And people tell me there is no reason for the new ELP standards! :rolleyes: Pe
Charter flight triggers terror alert at NATO base in Poland
Warsaw, Aug. 17 (AP): A planeload of Polish tourists got a fright when their Turkish pilot mistakenly landed at a NATO air base, sparking a terrorist alert, officials said on Thursday.

The pilot of the chartered plane disregarded instructions from air traffic controllers and touched down at the Krzesiny base near Poznan late Wednesday instead of at the city's Lawica airport, about 15 kilometers (10 miles) away.

Slawomir Orlowski, a spokesman for the military airport, said the unexpected landing triggered an anti-terror procedure, with troops scrambling to surround the aircraft.

Anti-terrorist police moved in to check the crew and the passengers, he said. Three hours later, the plane was allowed to fly to the civilian airport for regular arrival procedure.

``The people were under great stress because the crew was not able to communicate to them what was going on,'' Orlowski said. ``The pilot's English was not very good.''

He said the plane flew over the lit runway at Lawica and began turning around to begin its approach ``but on its way it saw the unlit runway of Krzesiny and the pilot sat the plane down there.''

Control towers at both airports were telling the pilot she had chosen the wrong airport, but she was flying low and went ahead with the landing, Orlowski said.

Warsaw airport spokesman Artur Burak also said the pilot of the plane, which had taken off from Antalya in Turkey, was at fault.

``The air traffic controller informed the pilot that she was making a mistake and that she should change her flight (route), but she didn't and she landed at the other airport,'' Burak said. ``It was the pilot's mistake.''
http://www.hinduonnet.com/holnus/001200608171655.htm

[Diabolo]

How come the F/O could be reponsable of this incident ????
Was the Captain sleeping at that time???
As far as I know their is only one responsable person on board no matter if he or she is the PF or not, The Commander is in charge !!

[CANOPUS]

The female pilot was not the captain but the F/O.
Here in Turkey the story was put in the Hurriyet (one of the biggest newspapers) with full blame to the "female F/O" with full face (and uniform) picture and name. Captain was only mentioned once in the text but the blame was put on "refusal of the pilot (referring to the F/O) to obey instructions of the tower" Fact is that the F/O was doing the RT so the Captain was most likely the PF........ nevertheless....not his fault apparently.

There are bizarre similarities between this incident and a Turkish B737 (flying for Pakistan International Airlines) bound for Karachi, Pakistan 7 months prior on 17 December 2005 which mistakenly landed at PAF Faisal Base, a military airfield. This unfortunate crew also included a woman co-pilot. Could this be the same airline? And could this be the same co-pilot?

Could it be that either or both of these flights were made up of an all female crew? The Hurriyet newspaper article I've read does not state the gender of the captain and therefore does not contradict the above. Turkey is a very progressive Islamic country and I don't think that an all female crew would be out of the question.

With regard to the captain of the either of these flights whether or not he/she was pilot flying at the time you can rest assured that it will be for the captain to answer ultimately for this error.

It is notable that there has been little "international" media interest in these incidents as opposed to the Eirjet incident at Ballykelly in Northern Ireland this past March. Why the sudden lack of interest at the major news agencies?

The CRM on the flight deck during the approach to Poznan, Poland must have been put to the test if the reports of an inability to communicate in English from the NATO spokesperson and others are to be believed. The lag time between what needs to be understood and confirmed by the "pilot not flying" on the radio and the resulting actual inputs from the "pilot flying" can add up to a lot of emotional stress on the flight deck. In the critical final stages of the approach communication needs to be precise, accurate and relevant.

These type of incidents continue to happen, even on the most advanced types of aircraft and at the at the biggest and best of airlines.

http://www.gulf-times.com/site/topics/article.asp?cu_no=2&item_no=64976&version=1&template_id=41&parent_id=23

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/4940981.asp?gid=74

[vunzke]

Dear CANOPUS

Turkey is a very progressive Islamic country and I don't think that an all female crew would be out of the question.

I totally agree and you are right, even totally female cockpit would be possible. however in the nedia and among the "general public" this would still be considdered "not done"

With regard to the captain of the either of these flights whether or not he/she was pilot flying at the time you can rest assured that it will be for the captain to answer ultimately for this error.

Again, I agree, however in the media this was not the case. I even feel that none of the pilots needed to be named in the article.

It is notable that there has been little "international" media interest in these incidents as opposed to the Eirjet incident at Ballykelly in Northern Ireland this past March. Why the sudden lack of interest at the major news agencies?

Anything that might hurt the aviation industry in Turkey would be kept out of the press as much as possible since it would hurt the already not so good "face" of Turkish aviation. In many cases a true thing but in many cases also not.

These type of incidents continue to happen, even on the most advanced types of aircraft and at the at the biggest and best of airlines.

And again I agree. Be sure I would be the LAST one to say this could never happen to me. Mistakes happen, even these ones, they shouldnt but they do, and depending on the circumstances and workload etc in the cockpit we all f*** up in some stage of our aviation carreer. Thing is, IF you decide to go public on it then at least be (wo)man enough to admit it.

[Ptkay]

http://www.hurriyet.com.tr/english/4940981.asp?gid=74


Of course, the Turkish magazine starts pushing the blame on Polish controllers...

:yuk:

And now, it was not a random passenger, who entered the cockpit
to help, but "a Polish pilot who had happened to be on the flight"...

And this pilot, according to the magazine:
"told the crew of the Sky flight that the fault lay with the Polish control tower. "

I am afraid, once this pilot is identified among Polish aviation
community, he will have several answers to give to his colleagues...

:ouch:

[Ptkay]

This is also hilarious...

<< Speaking from Turkey, the head of the Turkish Pilots Foundation,
Tuna Gurel, said that these sorts of incidents were "normal,"
noting that "the mistake lay with the control tower." >>

:ugh:

Maybe for him it is "normal", but not for us, PPL flying in this region,
who could got killed by those idiots...

:mad:

[737oli]

PtKay,
Yes it's seems that's this area is really dangerous, so I think that the Polish authorities have to do something to fix this situation.
Who are you, to call those pilots idiot? Hope for you that during your fly carrier you will never do a mistake.

Happy landing,

Oli

[Ptkay]

I am not calling those pilots "idiots",
(you are right, evrybody can make a mistake),
but those from their trade union,
who call missing the proper runnway and landing at a closed airport "NORMAL"...

This is not NORMAL, this is dangerous, and this is not the fault
of Polish authorities !!!

There are hundreds and thousands of airports with procedural approaches,
and nobody calls NORMAL, when a pilot takes a wrong turn,
ignores FMS, GPS, ILS, and everythig else, he has in fron of his nose,
taking into consideration only what he sees through the windscreen,
and even more, taking a DARK runway on an evening landing !!!

THIS IS NOT "NORMAL"....

All the navigational aids were operational, the controllers suggestions
were clear and understandable. The warning on wrong approach was given.

The typical blame-pushing game.

[737oli]

PtKay,
Actually the "normal" is a problem of traduction between turkish and english(original text in turkish), the good traduction is such mistake "may happen".
Also what I didn't know is that the only approach in Poznan is a NDB approach. In my idea, ndb with a big jet aircraft is really dangerous. If it's not the first time why not put Ils on this approach???

Happy landing,

Oli

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

EPPO is equipped with ILS DME and VOR DME

[Ptkay]

737oli:

...whatever the translation is, the bottom line is:

only responsible is PF and Capitain,
contorollers gave them instructions and trusted their
reporting "Runway in sight" !!!

If they had a wrong runway in sight, it was their fault,
and only THEIR fault to report it to the controller.

ATR: thanks for putting some things straight.

They had the FMS, ILS, GPS, and in spite of that
took the wrong runway...

That's all.

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

Ptkay - you are oversimplifying this... I am not saying "it was controllers fault", but you can't assign 100% the blame to the pilots. EPPO is very prone to such errors, even for crews familiar with the area - and the EPPO ATC authorities do NOTHING about it. They made the siuation even worse by shutting down the radar tracer - which might have saved the day had the controller seen the 737 was lined up for EPKS. For the time being, the only "countermeasure" is a small printed note on the Jeppesen chart. As the history shows - it's not enough... In that sense, it's not the pilots' fault but a systm fault.

[George Foreman]

I do remember the military field being quite prominent near Poznan, but there are warnings promulgated in the Polish AIP, and therefore all brands of approach plates for this airport. For a crew not familiar with EPPO, one would expect a thorough briefing to have picked this up, especially for a procedural approach without radar. This kind of thing certainly makes the case for the radar, because Poznan is a delightful, but otherwise not really very busy airport.

More than a bit unfortunate for the crew though,

> "was in poor command of English language, and was showing symptoms of strong nervousness..."

I'm not surprised! To be met by a full military welcoming party, instead of the friendly EPPO "follow me" car, the memorable man in the yellow VW van, with "I'm from Poznan" on the back.

My own lasting memory of EPPO, was the regular opportunity to practice the straight-in VOR 11 and roll to the end on reverse idle, so saving brakes and engine cycles but most importantly creating some extra time so as to wolf down a fantastic hot takeaway meal from the canteen, pre-ordered from the handling agent for the princely sum of 10 Zlotty. Or was that 15 Zlotty ? The price tended to vary randomly, but the quality of the roast chicken or fish and freshly prepared red cabbage salad was easily up to BA club standard :D , and set me up nicely for a trip back to Luton, straight out on the reciprocal runway :ok:

Such a friendly airport to operate from. I must go back sometime soon for a look around the town, as it always looked quite nice in the magazine.

George.

[Ptkay]

Gorge:

...thanks for professional and "moderating" post...

;)

[Ptkay]

"Skrzydlata Polska" a professional aviation magazine in Poland,
in its September issue published
the results of their independent investigation of the
incident at EPKS.

http://www.altair.com.pl/files/sp/0906/poz.htm

Translation of some interesting parts, new to the case:

1. they already missed to the right the CZE VOR,
mandatory in approach procedure
2. arriving from the south they turned to early to join 110
5 km from the runway line
3. they flew over Gądki grain elevator after the second procedural
turn with just 200-250m over the 40 m building.
4. after Gądki they made 45 bank turn and joined the EPKS runway line
5. a Cessna in pattern at Zerniki was 100 m ABOVE the 737 with
just 300 m lateral spacing !!!!
6. the turn MUST have been initiated by the capitain (not the female FO)
because from the FO position the EPKS runway was NOT VISIBLE.
7. the EPKS runway lights were NOT IN OPERATION.

Alltogether a really scary scenario with possible mid-air and groud collisions.

At our monthly AOPA meeting last week we invited
a member of the Polish Accident Commision to talk on GA safety issues,
and he confirrmed (off record, of course) most of the above.

He also confirmed, that TCAS was activated on the 737.

[FougaMagister]

The question that springs to mind is: whatever happened to instrument scanning? One has to assume that it was a visual approach - as with a similar mistake with EIRJET in Ballykelly earlier this year.

All the same, even during a visual approach, proper scanning of the EADI, EHSI and RDMI would have given a subtle hint that something was amiss... to say nothing of situation awareness (possible wrong runway orientation).

Even if on a visual approach, it was a PAX-carrying flight, therefore operated under IFR, so all NAVAIDS must (should?) have been tuned and idented long before the runway came in sight. In other words, conducting a visual approach doesn't spare the crew from instrument scanning, and if something doesn't make sense... ask yourselves why! Also, I would think the possible confusion with Poznan/Krzesiny would have been noted on the relevant approach plates, so a proper approach briefing by the PF should take care of the situation awareness issue.

Cheers :cool:

[POLISH_EDDIE]

Here is a detailed map of Lawica/EPPO. It clearly says not to mistake it with Krzesiny.

DO NOT MISTAKE KRZESINY aerodrome; 13.8 km (7.4 NM) SE OF POZNAN / Ławica WHEN APPROACHING RWY 29

http://www.altair.com.pl/files/sp/0906/poz2.jpg

Aircraft flying from south are passing VOR/DME in Czempin and then head straight to DVOR located half-way through Lawica's runway to begin ILS procedure for runway 29.

The First Officer was woman so Polish media started speculating she was responsible for the mistake. It could have been captain though as a person sitting on the right side in the flight deck wouldn't be able to see Krzesiny's runway as it was unlit.

Special commission in Poland is looking closely into this accident.