Whats Happening in the Torres Straits

[Texdoc]

AAP on Yahoo News "Faster chopper to patrol Torres Strait"

A faster helicopter with a longer range will patrol the Torres Strait under a new $100 million contract.

Australian Helicopters Pty Ltd (AHPL), which has been operating the Coastwatch helicopter surveillance and response service in the Torres Strait since 1995, on Tuesday won the tender to provide the service for another 12 years.

The new agreement will start in July 2007, a month after the current contract expires.

Justice and Customs Minister Chris Ellison said APHL would operate two helicopters, based on Horn Island.

Under the new contract, the existing Bell Longranger single-engine helicopter will be replaced by a new Squirrel with greater speed and operating range.

APHL will continue to operate its Bell twin-engine helicopter after its tracking and surveillance systems are upgraded.

"These helicopters form a vital part of Customs efforts to detect and deter illegal activity such as drug and people smuggling, illegal fishing and environmental offences in the Torres Strait," Senator Ellison said in a statement.

"They will augment Coastwatch's other aerial surveillance assets in this remote but sensitive area.

"Together with regular patrols by Customs National Marine Unit and Royal Australian Navy patrol vessels, and a new experimental High Frequency Surface Wave Radar system, the helicopters help to ensure that our vital northern sea lanes and islands are closely monitored and protected.""

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

So have you AH chaps got any feedback from your management team? Any movement on your wages and conditions? If you guys have been waiting for 12 months for an answer from your head office gurus, then what is going on? Do they seriously value your abilities and effort? How about sending a fire cracker up one of their asses to get them into action? :}

Or is their management style the black-hole approach to staff - ask away, send stuff to them, leave messages and it all disappears into a black hole like it never existed. Do they have the slighted idea about HR management and the current problems beings experienced with respect to mid and upper level aircrew shortages?

One previous contract I worked on allowed for cost variations to be passed onto the client, such as increased fuel costs, insurance costs etc etc. And vice verse, if costs were reduced, then the contract rate was also reduced. What scope is there for the management team to simply make an approach to the client (Government??) and request a revised rate schedule due to increased costs in terms of HR? If you can do it for consumables, such as fuel, then why not HR? No fuel, no fly! No staff, no fly?

Or did AH simply undercut everyone in order to get the contract and in return expect that their staff would be happy with below average wages? := Eh?

Is this also the reason for their Adelaide contract and the use of very, very second hand machinery down there...compare their 'competition' whom normally start such contractd with new or much newer gear AND, wait for it, AND they pay their staff appropriate rates of remuneration. :D

Sorry chaps, but it really boggles the mind. :ugh:

[B.A.N.D]

A dog will remain loyal to his master provided:
-It’s fed regularly.
-Petted occasionally.
-It’s not kicked up the arse for licking his balls.

A dog will question his position in the pack if:
-It’s master pays more attention to his puppy brother.
-It’s master gives his puppy brother a soft bed to lie on and makes the old dog sleep on the tiles.
-It’s master gives their puppy brother more food, new toys and state of the art kennel.

A dog will start looking through the neighbour’s fence if:
-The neighbour offers him sweet treats.
-The neighbour gives him a scratch under the chin.
-The neighbour appreciates the value of having a good dog around.

A dog will jump the fence if:
-Their master continues to ignore them.
-Their master arrogantly expects him to come when called only to lock him in the laundry.
-Their master continues to feed him with dinner scraps (but usually the master says there are no scraps to give).

Tip for all dog owners:
-Don’t ignore them
-Treat all the dogs equally
-Feed them more than the neighbour
-Appreciate their value
-Scratch them under the chin once in a while and
-Allow them to lick their own balls
;)

[John Eacott]

Crikey, I am out of touch. I was on that money in the Army at Duntroon in the mid-eighties, and I was a GSO. Surely the Army has handed out a payrise in the past 20 years?

Mil payrates are accessed via this site, here. (http://www.defencejobs.gov.au/default.asp?p=947) Scroll down to "Pay Level" which has a further link to the full pay scales for all services.

Extract for SSO Pilot:

Salary while undertaking Military (Initial Officer) Training and Employment Training: $28,805 per annum ($1104.85 per fortnight)*. Trainees are promoted to the rank of Second Lieutenant at the completion of their Helicopter Tactics Course with a salary increase to $40,675 per annum ($1,560.14 per fortnight)*

Uniform Maintenance Allowance at a rate of $419 per annum ($16.06 per fortnight)* is paid to assist members to maintain an approved scale of uniforms in good order and condition. This increases to $682 per annum ($26.14 per fortnight)* after commissioning to the rank of Second Lieutenant.

Service Allowance at the rate of $9,691 per annum ($371.71 per fortnight)* is paid to all members (except for certain trainee categories) below the rank of Lieutenant Colonel or equivalent. The allowance compensates a member for the unique requirements that service life may impose on an individual and his or her family.

Trainees with dependants may be entitled to Trainee's Dependant Allowance which is paid to enable trainees with dependants to receive a salary not less than $33,291 per annum ($1276.91 per fortnight) while training. Conditions apply. Speak to the Defence Recruiter for details.

[bellfest]

It seems more like rats leaving a "stinking" ship to me. Highly qualified and rightfully disgruntled rats that are sick of the odour coming from the sewarage pipe that runs down through the gallies from the bridge. The ship will more than likely continue to float for a good while yet.
When or if it does sink, years and years of tradition will be broken and the captain(s) will well and truly be the first to secure a life raft. In fact they are securing their life rafts right now. Inflatable rafts for one only, manufactured out of cold hard cash with a rashion pack of real estate and superannuation:cool: . No EPIRB required:ok: Companies like this may well have a trial exam on Cristopher Skase and Jodie Rich for their directors before they are allowed to come on board. How to be the :mad: ers and not the:mad: ees.:yuk: :yuk:
How about sending a fire cracker up one of their asses to get them into action?
Just tuck them away and use them to celebrate your next 'real' job:D

[benq]

I hear the customs contract there requirers the bare minimum of 4 atpl cir capts and 2 ir coees for the 2on 2 off roster.
they had 7 cir capts (including check and training capt) and 4 have resigned and 2 are looking for other opportunities,

that leaves a bit of a hole in the roster one would think????

I wonder if the customer (Australian Govt) knows whats going on.....
What would happen if the media gets wiff of this..
A/H the BIG Australian owned Helicopter company according to their ex- CEO (we've got contracts every where)
Wasnt he the same bloke that ran Pacific into the ground years ago, and tried to do the same at aero power but they were a wake up to him and booted him out!!!!!!!

[rotorwing]

Seems we diverse.
Facts remain.
1 Contracts to service!
2 Time involved to get crew on board!!
3 Recruiting the experience required to fly the contracts.
4 Remaining competetive with the compitetion.

Answer:

Pay the Money and you compete!!

[rotorwing]

BENQ

Believe your right! Couldn't b more in agreesence>?? Wonder why it is?
Maybe it's the Poo floating on the top!!

[benq]

show Me The Money

[r44driver]

benq
If you are going to slag someone off like you have, you might want to get your facts straight first.

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

R44Driver...perhaps you could also provide some evidence to prove otherwise of the accused's efforts in reducing the overall performance of a company. If its who I am thinking of, several and varied sources would suggest otherwise...ongoing and consistant incompetence.

BenQ...any news from the bridge as yet?

[benq]

r44

Who did I slag off, there has been numerous ceo's at the companies that i have mention and unless you are in the know, you wouldnt know ,WHo i was talking about.

And if you were in the know of who i was referring too ,then you would know that i was speaking the TRUTH. So put that in ya pipe and smoke it.

And how do i know,

I was there

[benq]

rw joa trades

No further news from the bridge at this stage, check the australian on friday??

GO THE RATS, come on the guns:)

[r44driver]

Benq,
Your logic clearly defines you. What a git! You have mentioned three companies. How many people have been the CEO for all these companies I wonder.
You're are probably some tosser that has seen a Reef Helicopters 412 and someday aspire to be sitting in a crew seat. It's pretty unlikely I would say.
You probably need to learn to spell first.

[rotorwing]

benq
As usual, couldn't agree with you more. Maybe r44driver is a bit higher up the ladder than I first anticipated and if this be the case he is a true tosser. Interesting to see no ads in Friday Australian, must be that the positions have been filled!!! Any comment from those in the know?
Cheers
Rotor

[itoldyouso]

Obviously no extra staff are required to fill any positions because there is not a problem.

Enough is enough.

Isn't a company alowed to operate as they see fit?

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

"R44Driver" - what sort of a dipstick are you? Here is a group of guys seemingly getting f@3cked over and you jump on and rant and rave like a mad woman on a bad acid trip at the wrong time of the month. Cut them a break and maybe support a fellow pilot get a decent wage for once. Or perhaps you're a part of the management team of AH? Interesting...:confused: . And what sort of a garbage callw as that about being a person who just wanted to fly in the 412 they operate...get a grip mate and when you do, please excuse yourself and your ignorant ramblings.:*

And "Itoldyouso"...nice of you to join in very very recently and add your 2 cents worth. Very useful indeed. :mad: Yes, a company can do what they like and they often do in aviation (especially GA). A lot of companies generally underpay people and treat staff with contempt. Staff are treated like an expense, not an asset to be looked after and reinvested in. Look after your staff, and they will in turn look after your customer, thence your bottom line. Speaking of the bottom of things, perhaps you can go back to the bottom of wherever you very, very suddenly appeared from (joined 22/8/06) and cut these guys some slack as they try to get a decent wage for a decent job.

People - lets NOT forget the average wage these days is in excess of $55K and the minimum wage is $26K. Here we are in the 21st century, in a period of growth and prosperity and we still have companies trying to pay below average wages to their aircrew staff. Perhaps this is why so many pilots and crew are heading overseas.:D

[r44driver]

jack of f*** all
Nice tirade, sounds like you are the one on acid.
If you read my first post, it was about the comments made about a particular person.
The second one was replying to someones claim that they were not talking about that person.
Give me a break!
And as far as not supporting fellow pilots, if people are not happy with their job or conditions they should let their feet do the talking. Get another job if you are not happy where you work.

[gulliBell]

Hey guys, let's all settle down, take a deep breath and consider this for what it is, good news for all:
1. Good news that experienced guys have an opportunity to move on elsewhere and earn a higher income overseas;
2. Goods news that the freed up seats in #1 should become available to less experienced guys on the fringe of M/E command. They will get the twin experience they need to eventually move on to the higher paid jobs;
3. Good news that the freed up seats from #2 would become available to piston drivers looking to get into a turbine;
4. Good news that the freed up seats from #3 would become available to new CHL's that might otherwise find it impossible to find a flying job;
5. Good news for the flying schools who can now honestly say that potential students really do have some hope of finding a job after they get a licence.
Good news for all, so lets be grateful that the wheel has turned in our favour.

[rotorwing]

gulliBELL
Very nicely said! Couldn't agree more. If all the angst that is apparentley happening in that region leads to a more fruitful, Opportune career for those comming through the ranks than it must be worth it. Opportunities abound at this time for all and it is folly to let such things pass without making a grab.
As for r44driver or is that drivler? You have once again shown your grasp on such heavy matters. "If you don't like the job let your feet do the talking". I believe thats exactly what is happening up there. The problem for that company is how to stem the trickle before it becomes a flood. But I guess having such a firm grasp on things you can sort this out!

Cheers
Rotor

[movin' on]

Selfish,
I hear the claim was for 30% across the board....met with an offer of 3%.:(

Time for an afternoon off for all the boys to discuss what action may be an appropriate response:ok:

MO

[gulliBell]

Oh Dear
Unless they are living in paradise, on the world’s best roster and flying fantastic equipment, any ME IFR Captains starting on less than $90K in OZ should move on.:ok:


Is that all? I thought we established elsewhere that B206 maintenance and instructor pilots are starting on more than that, with not a mention of ME or IFR anywhere!

[jinglejim]

I wish it was that easy "just move on".....
Unfortunately when family is involved sometimes the family just don't want to move on... which may explain why there's so many divorced helo pilots out there... cos that just kept moooovvvving on.
Of course management play on this and will continue to screw guys over for the extra buck...

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

Its a sad, sad state of affairs when we have supposed large Australian companies pretending to be running with the likes of CHC and Bristows, yet they still cannot do the basics such as tendering correctly for a contract that remunerates all concerned adequately. :bored:

Further, in the Australian industry, where there is talk and hype of a growth spurt with a substantial opportunity base opening up for guys, what the hell is going on when we still can't get crews remunerated adequately? Seriously!

I am just glad to be working overseas myself on contract where the machinery is nicer, the management appreciate good staff and are prepared to pay them appropriately for their effort, skill and loyalty. It would appear that there is a lot to be learned by this particular company. The whole issue of underpaying people is getting very tiresome with pilots and associated crews and it is only a matter of time before such companies pay for this with a heavy price.

Again, good luck guys...3% is a slap in the face...its a paltry amount to offer up and any decent man could not seriously look another in the face and offer such a disgracefully low amount, given inflationary pressures and the fact these guys are worth far more then what they are getting.

[talklimited]

Whilst I do not say that the company being grilled here is a participant, (and I have no knowledge of how they operate) it is a very common HR practise to know the personal commitment of each staff member with respect to how much they might need the job.
For example, do they have a mortgage? Do they have a family with kids in school, wife working? In other words management find out how much you are committed to the place you live. Believe me this is a common strategy that management uses to know who can be screwed and who might not take the same amount of screwing. The issuing of assignments, extending tours with little notice, is often dealt to specific individuals that will have a reason not to cause too much trouble.
Advice, tell your employer as little as possible about your personal and financial matters. Present a personally secure image and you may just get treated better if you’re a good pilot and not too much of a bother to them.
This is particularly true in companies that do special deals with individuals.

[Gerbil Racer]

To all that think that there is room for movement now that the roster stoppers have gone, go ahead.
Slut yourselves out.
Do 'all that it takes' to get ahead.
Or.....you could scare yourselves a little and perhaps think that the fiscal policies adopted might be carried through to ....... no. Let's just pretend that those that have left have only done so for the pocket lining getting thin.
Of course that's the only reason they left.
Now where did the Sarcasm Lock button go?

[itoldyouso]

Come on guys:)

All you insiders must know – “How much do they pay ME IFR Captains”?:confused: :confused:

All this “secrecy” and reluctance to disclose figures is one of the things slowing the wage increase (which we all know is gaining momentum, despite traditional impediments):E

Mr $pendthrift;) ;)
Try this link; http://www.wagenet.gov.au/WageNet/Search/View.ASP?docid=180582&quickview=Y&page=whole

Please note that this Certified Agreement was signed on the 14th November 2002, so you would have to apply appropriate CPI increases since then.

You may also note that the Agreement thus expired on the 14th November 2005 (ie 3 years).

The "Company" took 6 months, after the expiry date, to start negotiations for the new EBA, which is on going.

Happy reading.

[benq]

talklimited
you have hit the nail on the head, its called
Dangling the CARROT.
If you are a good boy and dont make waves you will and/or stay as a coee/captain on the 412
Make waves and your ass is grass.... back to jetranger.

and has you stated talklimited...if management know your situation to well they know they have you trapped,this is Company Bullying at its best(WORST).
A/H i have heard were very very good at this tactic, But they are not the only ones doing it, and of course it doesnt get reported, because every body needs to support their families and/or pay their child support...So they have us over a barrell so to speak...

It has been said in this post that the departure of pilots from one sector leaving to go to another, opens the way for others to come through,,Well yes it does BUT don't forget WHY those leaving have left and WHY are they leaving in the numbers they are...
BE CAUTIOUS
BE AFRAID, BE VERY AFRAID

When you hear 4 out of 7 highly experienced ATPL Command Instument Rated Pilots leaving a company, something is not right
And not only that
BUT
a number of the crewies for that company are leaving as well,something is definitly wrong..

Glad i do my own thing now,

my 2 bobs worth

[gulliBell]

When you hear 4 out of 7 highly experienced ATPL Command Instument Rated Pilots leaving a company, something is not right


Something may not be right, but it has to be understood here that it's their train set and ultimately they can do with it what they want. There's no point saying that the management is this or that, or to bluntly point out the error of their policies, or to say the tender rates are too low, or whatever; the beancounters (as always) are those who are listened to, and the beancounters have shown it is cheaper for the company to keep salaries down and accept a high staff turnover.

The proposal that the boys sit down for half a day to discuss options is interesting, I gotta tell you that when you shoot yourself in the foot chances are you'll go lame, or walk around in circles. Also pointless getting AFAP to take them on (not that I have heard that suggested yet), because I figure AH are probably paying the minimum Award rates in which case there is no case. But if they are paying less than Award or EBA rates then take them to the cleaners. But be warned, anyone contemplating taking their employer through this process will end up with their name in the little black book, and many other doors elsewhere will be closed.

So to disgruntled staff anywhere (speaking generally) might better look at it this way: get out of it what you can, take pride in the fact that you're doing your best, and then move on when a better opportunity presents itself. Get the extra rating or endorsement, or get those extra hours that you need, or get the time in to demonstate a stable employment history, and bank the pittance that they pay you until you find the better alternative.

So hang in there guys, more and more vets are retiring every week so opportunities for progression are becoming more plentiful.

[B.A.N.D]

:uhoh: I get the feeling that the employees expected and hoped for more from this company.

The reality is, it’s a middle of the range company with middle of the range wages and a middle of the range attitude toward the biggest asset they have – their staff.

Accept it for what it is. It probably wont improve.

[helopat]

Notice the advert for pilots up north in todays rag by these good people? Still insist on the ATPL(H). But hey, what do I know...except I'm steering clear and see what happens in the longer term.

[Chuck76]

Good decision; why would you even look at AH?

They are winning contracts by undercutting on the one cost they have some room to maneuver Labour. Given the current market guys will vote with there feet and good on them.

I can only comment on renumeration and conditions for Australian Offshore namely Bristow:

Copilot: base Salary 55k plus 16k tax free for Daily Travel Allowance (DTA)
Senior First Officer: 75k plus 16k tax free DTA
Captain:95k plus 16k tax free DTA

All you have to do with your DTA is feed yourself so you can easily save a large chunk of the $95 a day.

$2200 per year for AFAP membership/Loss of Licence
Salary continuance @ 75% of salary plus allowances for 5 years should you get crook

Two weeks on two weeks off plus four weeks annual rec leave, so you can make a decent living working 22 weeks of the year and 30 weeks off:O

If AH are really only paying 65k for Multi CIR 412 driver they are taking the piss! Respond to the Bristow add instead, the offshore upswing is just getting going the Pay and conditions will only be on the improve.

[Chairmanofthebored]

Bristows have to pay that to compensate the 'boredom factor'.

[SMOUFW]

What a Hard Decision???

Boredom factor for $130k or holding your ankles for 60K.

SMO

[bellfest]

Bristows have to pay that to compensate the 'boredom factor'.

That's an interesting comment. Would you care to tell us all what is that exciting about updating ships, prying the sleep out of your eyes at 2 am, babysitting marine pilots, flying over water for 2 hours or the pitch black or in the **** with your pupils rapidly cycling attempting to adjust to the lightning, trying to speak pidgeon english and completely disregarding what is left of your body clock at times that warrants such a pathetic salary. One might suggest ( if one is not a greedy bean counting parasite) that the salary should be the contrary. If memory serves me correctly, it was at times tedious, frustrating, challenging, enlightening, satisfying, scary, gratifying and mundane but the one thing that I never personally felt was that I was being rewarded what I was worth. Let alone some of the more qualified and professional lads I had the pleasure of working with.

[Nigel Osborn]

Gee, Bellfest that sounds exciting! And you want money as well!!??:ok:

[Chairmanofthebored]

Yeah, all that overwater flying is ******* hard eh? ALT captured, HDG captured, Direct to - enter. ZZZZZzzzzzz VNAV decent in 100 nms.
Welcome to the rest of your life. 2 weeks Barrow return, Skippers, Perth, 2weeks of Barrow return, Skippers, Perth, 2 weeks...
Can I live on the east coast please? NO
******* boring and don't try to convince us otherwise. Bloody offshore drivers have no idea even what a mountain or wire looks like and living to figure out what to do with 130K (thought it was 95K?) is pathetic. Don't try and convince us what you do is hard and all those other adjectives, we know; a lot of us have been there and done that and NO we are not impressed with your salary. Especially when you had to be a copilot for 5yrs and most of the Bristow pilots have never done anything else with their life apart from Bristows. If I had a buck for every cojoe who wandered up to the machine "wow! you're going looking for crocodiles!!"
Sell out if you want or live the dream. If you really are living your dream then good for you. I doubt they are considering the defensive nature of the comments.

[Ned-Air2Air]

Interesting thread and no matter where I travel or who I speak to its the common topic of discussion - we arent getting paid enough for what we do.

So lets look at it from this angle as this whole thread is about how much pilots DONT get paid. Here is a list of jobs in the helicopter industry and since members here encompass a very wide spectrum of the industry, why dont you put your two cents worth in as to what pilots SHOULD be paid, and be realistic. I know there are a lot of variables but am talking about what you think would be an acceptable salary.

Ag Pilot
Offshore Oil Support
Mustering Pilot - Newbie
Mustering Pilot - Old Hand
EMS Pilot
Law Enforcement
Corporate & VIP
General Charter
Utility Pilot
Specialist Longline Pilot
Flight Instructor - Newbie
Flight Instructor - Experienced.
Tour Pilot ie: Hawaii or Vegas
Fire Fighting

Anyway just thought this might add a different twist to this thread.

Ned

[bellfest]

cob
We may be a bit misunderstood there mate. I never have or never will work for Bristow. I have a few friends that do and they are very content with what they do. I have done a fair bit of MPT in the past though and that is where I pass my comment and question your theory that seemingly states that you don't necessaraly need a descent salary because it is not boring. Is that what you meant?
There is/are a lot of good men who have done MPT in the past and are still doing it that have a very broad range of experience in other aspects of flying. Mustering, geo, film, ems, you name it (even daring to venture out with the crocodiles:eek: how posetively terrifying:ugh: ), so again, on the contrary, these people are worth a lot more.
At a certain stage of your career the wank factor no longer plays a part in what you are doing and it turns into feeding your family and putting your kids through school.
"I know we lost the house sweetheart, but you wouldn't believe what happened on approach to the ship last night, f@#* it was exciting":ouch:

[Chuck76]

COB,

After 10 years Flying in the Army I know more then a thing or two about mountains, wires and not to mention close formation on NVG's.

Dont presume just because somone has decided to work for a decent company doing the offshore gig, that they know nothing else, a lot of our pilots are highly experienced from all walks of the industry.

I posted the pay & conditions as an informative gesture so the AH pilots can do a comparison, because I genuinely feel that in the current market they are hard done by. Offshore isn't the gig for everyone; if your like me with a young family and a big mortgage it is the place to be.

If your still living the dream good for you, don't knock other guys for doing something different to yourself, everyone makes decisions based on their personal circumstances. Making the decision to join a big company and work offshore to give your family a better standard of living is anything but pathetic.

[gulliBell]

...why dont you put your two cents worth in as to what pilots SHOULD be paid, and be realistic.


I reckon an IFR M/E Captain with say, 20+ years experience, has got to be worth about as much as an 18 year old electrician's apprentice straight out of school. Let's figure a number, I just paid $60 per hour (including travel time)for an apprentice to help me pull some cables through my roof, at say 11 duty hours per day = $660 per day.

Flying helicopters is more fun :ok: and less dangerous :} and holds far fewer responsibilities :confused: than pulling electrical cables, so let's offer a bit of a discount on the daily rate...let's just make it $600 per day :ugh:

[kwikenz]

Wow... COB... who got denied at the interview for Bristow? Sadly your information as to the pedigree of most Bristow pilots is a little amiss.

There are certainly a number of lucky FO's that got a start from near scratch. However, there are a large number of pilots from the whole spectrum of the rotary world and the collected experience of 'wires' and 'mountains' would naturally far exceed your own.

Offshore drivers make the decision to go that way for more than just the money mate and your suggestion that its a sell out might be taken as somewhat offensive. I sense that that was your intention, which returns me to my first impression that you are in fact a grizzly reject from the offshore scene.

All the best

[helopat]

Anyway just thought this might add a different twist to this thread.
Ned

Neddy,

Might it be better to try to lump these rotary jobs into a couple of categories, ie. hours building, etc?

So, at the risk of getting my hind parts shot off :ouch: by some particularly angry participants in this forum:* , my take on the business...I'm not even going to PRESUME to estimate what each of these groups should make...I'll leave that for some other brave soul.

HIGH END EARNERS
Offshore Oil Support
Corporate & VIP

GUYS WHO SHOULD BE HIGH END EARNERS BUT AREN'T (YET)
EMS Pilot
Law Enforcement (some)
Specialist Longline Pilot

SOMEWHERE IN BETWEEN SEMI-GINORMOUS BUCKS AND STARVATION WAGE
General Charter
Utility Pilot
Mustering Pilot - Old Hand (probably never going to be above a moderate wage, though, wouldn't you say?)
Flight Instructor - Experienced
Tour Pilot ie: Hawaii or Vegas (because the tour company STILL has to make the big bucks itself, so sorry pilot)
Fire Fighting
Ag Pilot

HOURS BUILDING
Mustering Pilot - Newbie
Flight Instructor - Newbie
Fire Fighting

Now that I've written this, I think I'm in for a serious ass whoopin from just about every group represented above, aren't I?:sad:

HP

[Chairmanofthebored]

Ah...wrong. Done a ton of that gig. Offshore is where you go for a steady job either for the family or because you are called to service the oil and gas industry and be the poorest paid and non-unionised worker with the worst roster.
Military guys end up there because they are largely unemployable elsewhere and have not enough time for VFR or PNG nor the experience. Also they are unable to cope with a non-regulated environment where commonsence and initiative are vital. That's a largely inflamatory statement and not descriptive of all ex-mil guys but for the most its pretty accurate. Not your fault thou, you were ****** with as a youngster and they beat all individualism out of you. The pre-start, start, pre-takeoff, takeoff, cruise, decent, pre-landing, landing, taxi and shut-down checklists are the working environment perfect for the 2000hr mil pilot. But listen, there are a few good ones out there!
Bellfest:
All respect mate; no I think we are all underpaid and cudos to the offshore guys if they are pulling 130K. They deserve it. MYSELF: I just find it difficult to know that I will be flying the same track there and back for the rest of my career. Might as well give up, retrain as a financial consultant and live for Friday afternoon and dread Sunday evening.

I think a 3-5000hr VFR or IFR pilot should pull at least $100k aussie per year.

[Nigel Osborn]

The main topic seems to be what pilots are being paid rather than if they like their company & are satisfied with their lot. Just to give you some idea how badly our pay has slipped over the years, let me give you my example.

I left the Navy in 1967 with 1500 hours, although 1035 was on twins, instrument experienced & with mountain, desert, jungle & general vfr bush experience. My first job was to fly a Bell 47G3B1 on a gravity sampling contract near Halls Creek. We all flew about 150 hours per month, 6 weeks on 2 weeks off, although this was generally 12-16 weeks on & 2-3 off. For this I was paid $9000 per year & $6 per revenue hour plus $6 per day. Food was provided & we normally slept in a swag near to the 47.

My gross pay was about the same as a DC9 captain & more than a F27 captain & co-pilot combined. And that was for a sprog 1500 hour pilot on a little 47.Logically 40 years & 13000 hours later, if that rate of helicopter pay had kept pace with the plank pilots, I would expect to be close to a 747 captain in pay. But as we all know that has not happened & I suppose we only have ourselves to blame. When I bought my first house in Sydney in Nov 1967, I rememember my solicitor saying my income was in the top 5% in the country, more than his! These days pilots salaries, especially on oil rigs, are well down compared to many other trades.

I doubt if there will be much improvement for a while yet.

[topendtorque]

Helopat
I think you've done a good guesstimate on the mustering scene.

although newbies tend to be experience building rather than hours sharks. No place for them nowadays, they can go to the tourist industry.

Old hands, well if they are real enterprising they should learn bovine preg testing so as they are usefully employed while they are waiting to muster the next mob.
At $2.00 a shot it's real riveting stuff shoving your hand up five or six hundred cows arses a day, still it's way better than having someone shove something else up yours , eh?
cheers tet

[itoldyouso]

I hear another one left AH yesterday!

[Chamonix]

ito ldyo uso, my juices are flowin' - ah chew!

[belly tank]

COB!
I think a 3-5000hr VFR or IFR pilot should pull at least $100k aussie per year.
I agree, however this would be slightly possible if companies wouldnt prostitute themselves/machines ie B206 in OZ for $500 P/hr,:mad: an KIWI comapnies coming here for much the same on powerline ops:yuk: ...maybe we pilots could earn some dollars.:sad:
As a benchmark or figured estimate i did a remote survey job recently for 10 days for $400 AUD PER DAY plus accomodation plus meals and airline travels, so in the end it didnt work out too bad at all. mind you the employer i fly for casually uses new eqipment so quality is not a problem!:D ........but it can get lonely in a sleeping bag after awhile!:{ ...but ive seen many beautiful sunrises and i wouldnt trade it for the world:ok:

[helopat]

At $2.00 a shot it's real riveting stuff shoving your hand up five or six hundred cows arses a day, still it's way better than having someone shove something else up yours , eh?
cheers tet

I think thats the main point most of the writers above are getting at...sick of the feeling of getting arse f:mad: ed in the salary arena.

HP

[Chairmanofthebored]

TET: farking hilarious. All that experience must come in handy later. Is that an aviation managment course you were on?
BT: nice to see you getting some sunrise. I agree to a point that the foreign companies coming in and undercutting is poor form. I cannot see an end to it anytime soon. The only way to make change is to unionise.

Those ******* roustabouts chasing a crane on a platform are not earning 70K a year because of their uni education. Its all about the unions. When I was an apprentice I was forced to join the union. The dues were minimal but the backup was phenomenal. Every new pilot out of school should be 'pressed' into the union and that would stop the arse ******* that happens now. All workplaces should be unionised and when the guys up at HA are being impregnated by TET :) we should all drop collective.

Just imagine for a minute what action that would effect. No sar, no oil workers moving, no TV, no fire fighting, no powerline repairs, no telstra repairs, no beef burgers, no fat arses over uluru. Get in your ******* toyota and drive. Sorry, it just has to happen. I HAS TO - its impossible to get pilots to do this without external organisation. We need better wages, higher education standards for industry entry, better protection for families, better protection for self, better longevity, better tours, better care for families of those that die.

And there is the fact team. Look around. Those guys you are with now, trained with, worked on fires with, heard on the frequency. One or more of them is going to be killed or permanently maimed sometime soon. It might even be you. What are you going to do when you break your back cause the piece of **** lowsided into trees? What is your backup plan? Seen the cost of health and life insurance lately? Who apart from the Bristow, Esso, CHC have any level of personal care? And who are the ones at the greatest risk?
Its a dangerous job and the danger is accentuated by budget operators in every facet of the industry who bring the standards down, slash costs, maintain to the minimum and employ the cheapest. We cannot be trusted to regulate on our own.

[Nigel Osborn]

TET
I do hope you've been putting your hand up the correct orifice all these years; it might effect the price of beef otherwise.

COB
All very true but unfortunately pilots seem to be extroverts & don't work together with each other, not even within the same company. This happens around the world, not just in Oz. The backstabbing syndrome is alive & well, so improvements of pay, etc won't happen in the immediate future.:ugh:

[EBCAU]

At the start of my career I was forced into a union. I also got screwed over by one faction of the union (fixed wing) using leverage to catch up and pass another (rotary wing). Back stabbing and ego was alive and well then, just as it is now. That was many years ago and I have had a distaste for unions ever since.
However, now I fully agree with CTOTB. In the current climate it is only some sort of organised front that will halt the self inflicted exploitation of helicopter pilots. Unfortunately, I think I will be well past retirement before this comes to pass in the Southern Hemisphere.

[gulliBell]

All workplaces should be unionised and when the guys up at HA are being impregnated by TET :) we should all drop collective. Just imagine for a minute what action that would effect. No sar, no oil workers moving, no TV, no fire fighting, no powerline repairs, no telstra repairs, no beef burgers, no fat arses over uluru...


For those who can't remember back to the 80's, when AFAP members withdrew their labour resulting in the Ansett dispute...Bob Hawke brought in the military and the job got done. Many of those pilots involved never worked in Australia again. "Those who fail to learn from history are bound to repeat it", just be mindful of history when considering any decision to drop collective.

p.s. I believe many of those recently being uncomfortably impregnated at AH are now doing the impregnating very comfortably elsewhere, with more to cum :D

[Max Dover]

Belly Tank
Is that not your AoC fronting for a Gold Coast helicopter company advertising on the web?
Also - is that comany owned by a couple of Kiwis?
I think the practice of borrowing an AoC has done more damage to the industry and therefore pilot conditions than any other arrangement. It has allowed more unknowns and less experienced individuals to get into the industry than by any other means. := := :=

[Chairmanofthebored]

I was a bit young to be an 89'er but I wonder if that would work these days, especially given the military method of operation. Just how many crewman would it take to spray locusts in a Kiowa :rolleyes:
What about the insurance ramifications? Would they use military aircraft not certified for passanger carrying operations offshore and how much training would those pilots need?
I think Helicopters are a little more complicated than airliners and the military pilot would only be capable of 50% :confused: of the current workload.

Plus, haven't they got enough to do in Timor and imagine all the bonuses they would want?

:E

[w_ocker]

CoB,
Would like to agree with you, but what you are suggesting would require solidarity amongst the whole pilot group. Just look at your previous posts, you have alienated off-shore pilots, military pilots, seemingly anyone who isnt you. Solidarity of the sort your plan requires relies upon mutual respect (like that I have for your implied bush experience).
But then, what would I know, I'm just a crap institutionalised ex-mil pilot doing a non-rostered 24 hour shift (admittedly with an adititional 12 hours stanby at home) on EMS for about $1500... and I get the same for casual fire bombing too (thats bush work, isnt it?).
Support your mates, do the job well, put-up, shut-up or make your lot better. That always worked for us in the military, and it seems to still apply.
Best of luck. I think we can do better for EVERYONE in the industry.

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

So after all this discussion, what is the end result for Australian Helicopters and there screwed around staff?

[CYHeli]

Fortunately, it's illegal. It now stops every other industry getting screwed over.
But what can pilots do to protect themselves?
Join the union that already exists. The HAA. There's an AGM in October.
If you are pro-union and don't like the HAA, them who do you suggest we join?? If the HAA doesn't have the direction that you want, then join and provide that direction. (No, I'm not a voting member..) All I'm saying is that you don't have to re-invent the wheel, just keep the current one turning.
I am an aviation prostitute, I fly for hours because pilots with low hours don't actually earn money! If the mob I work for puts their rates up, we get under cut and then there is no money for anyone, including the CP. Expecting employees to work for less than the award wage is just as illegal as compulsory unionism, but who is going to bite the hand that feeds them and complain that the boss wont pay.
damned if you do and damned if you don't...:suspect:
Remember, if you're not earning then you can't even claim the medical on tax!

[rotorwing]

RWJackofall

I hear rumour that the big man(ceo) himself is in the straits at this time trying to get to the bottom of the hole causing the leak!!!
Sounds like a lot of old hat to my source. Dangle the carrot with promises of new contracts and more money to come for all.
Apparently won't hear about the latter for maybe 6 months or so(eh?)
Troops must be a bit weary of hearing that by now.

Cheers
Rotor

[belly tank]

Max,
Yes it is our AOC there, as we operate the machinery there also. yes you are correct about the aircraft owned by New Zealanders who now live here.(They do not fly) the operation employs Aussie pilots for info.
If its any consolation to you CASA has no problems with us being in NSW and operating a base in QLD as many other operators do this also. (could it be you work for another company somewhere nearby also:confused: )
i guess you werent inexperienced and unkown at one stage or another right
get some facts straight first buddy:ok:

[kwikenz]

Max - and exacetly what is the point in your comment about the GC operator being run by Kiwi's?
Nice looking gear with more on the way. Not beating around in old s:mad: tbox jetrangers for merely the DOC + change. A bit of competition doesnt hurt anyone mate. If it upsets you, set up in competition and do a better job and out trade them.
Get on the right page and realise that the problems are much broader and more complicated than being about a single issue... especially one so inane as being from another country. You may one day wish to live and work elsewhere... think about the reception you would like.
So what... the Wallabies are :mad: at the moment. They'll be back... keep your knickers on!
:E

[rotorwing]

Kwikenz

I think between you and the other joiners the thread has been somehow lost in their interpretation. I wish ya all the best, up there, in all ya do and I hope that it work's for ya

[benq]

i agree with you R/W
the thread has gone to the dogs
it started about rats leaving a sinking ship and going to hopefully a better place.
then a few LOSERS joined in (something 44 ah yeah r driver 44) and gave us some verbal crap about not knowing what we are talking about.I think this could be some body from the (watch this space,hold on for the ride)management of australian H....

and now we are talking about unions, HELLO.
Stuff the unions. they do nothing
I opened this thread purely to vent my anger and frustration at the wankers in companies that stuff up good companies..
Reef Helicopters was the best company to work for before the year 2000.They had a good crew 4 machines and 6 pilots and you would tour out of TI 4 weeks on 1 week off down to cairns or where ever . Or you stayed at TI and got drunk,fished and had a bloody good time.
On a sunday every now and then all staff and families would be ferried by the standby ems pilot to an island by helicopter for the day. Moral was high everybody was glad to be there, and every body worked hard,but they enjoyed it.
Can you believe this ,, the staff used to dine and drink with the owners when they visited TI. They were asked their opinion on matters and what they thought about company policy.
staff know the owners by face not just name........

THEN a 412 came along and a new CEO
More pilots more crewies(kelpies) back stabbing, secrets,whos doing what, how can I get better than him,,,,etc etcetc etc etc..
Downhill from there

Give me the old REEF,,,what happy memories
To all the blokes that can remember those days at reef
Remember the christmas day feast and the coldies

have a beer and smile,,,,,,,Kay W was not that bad

[McGowan]

benq,
Unfortunately, life is like that. There would not be many helicopter pilots out there that can't say the same thing about numerous companies, "the good old days".
I know that it is very annoying when big machines arrive and new management comes along, then the bean counters, then the new pilots, new crewies, new engineers, it all gets too big and too impersonel. You end up a number instead of a valued part of the operation. The job becomes a big buisness, not the corner shop run by the family. (Not talking Mafia here!!!)
I have never worked for AH, or delt with them, so can't comment either way on what is going on up there. Although I'm sure it will sort its self out eventually, too much money involved for it to just fall over.
I think the unfortunate thing is, as some have said, if the guys don't like it, go. Others will be along very quickly to fill the viod, regardless of how bad some will say it is.

[benq]

are the rats still leaving the ship....????

Word from the bridge is YES..

And the flow of B/S is still at a steady pace

[ron_burgundy]

ive been watching this thread re: the AH boys with interest and figured it was time i registered so i could add my little bit of info.........

a big rumour has it that the EMS contract is still very much up for grabs and AH's neighbours have been apparently sighted with tape measures in hand sneeking across to AH's hanger sizing it up to make sure their new BK fits :ok:

[belly tank]

Ron Burgundy!
Ive seen your movie!!............must admit your a legend!, and yes you did win Christina Applegate in the end:{ .......can i borrow your burgundy suit ive got a wedding to goto next weekend:D

[benq]

Heard yesterday from a little rat( birdie) that the position advertised for 412 captain,,2 weeks ago drew the huge response of
0 applicatates

GEES I wonder

[ron_burgundy]

Bellytank

Baxter and I have checked the wardrobe and you may borrow the burgundy suit for your wedding. The ladies love it.

*********************************************************

News just in to the Channel 4 newsdesk, you couldn't smack the smiles off the faces of the the rats that have or are leaving the ship, all the best guys.

I'm Ron Burgundy
You stay classy
Planet Earth

[bellfest]

exactly how many have left and where have they all gone? presumably most to Hevilift.
big problems for HA if they can't get any crew! I bet they are dumbfounded and can't for the life of them work out why not:confused:

[benq]

The word is that the coees are being pushed into the captains chair and some of the good i dont make any waves 206 drivers are being made cojoes.

I can see that is going to work on those dark black stormy tropical nights ,in the straits...
UM UM UM

Hang on for the ride and watch this space ( ex ceo famous words) will take on a whole new meaning....

heard 3 or 4 captains went to hevilift and some of the kelpies also

[Op's Normal]

benq

The word is correct.
Captains and Kelpies have seen the light. I have it on good authority that there are more to follow.
In the last couple of months there have been 5 pilots from the Torres Strait Base (206 and 412) move on, and so far 3 crewies, not all to the same company.

As they have said, " you can only hang on for the ride for so long and the dangled carrots have rotted". :=

[floatsarmed]

The security clearances that required to go ANYWHERE near the Customs contract stuff up in the Strait take months to come through, if any more 412 Captains leave then I think AH will be in the canoe without paddle.

The head office management only have themselves to blame as the only reason that the operation ran as well as it did was that the crew on site were a good hard working professional bunch. :=

If they think that they can just slide a new bum onto the Captains side in the 412 from elsewhere in the company then they are dangerously deluding themselves! Being a great longranger driver with many thousands of hours does not readily translate to being a competant Captain of an IFR "systems" aircraft without the requisite time, training and experience being invested into said pilot by the company. The Customs contract up in the Strait is worth a heap of dollars so I hope it doesn't end up in someone having a monumental prang just because they got stuffed into a seat they were not quite ready for?:sad:

Good luck to those brave enough to move on. In this case the grass may well be greener on the other side of the fence!:D

[Op's Normal]

It may not be a case of "The Grass,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,". I hear the grass at AH has turned to mud. Chatting the other day, I hear the confidence level with the management is at rock bottom, hence the movement of crews. I hope the people I know up there don't get caught in the mire. A former CEO had told staff up there that " Shake any tree and a pilot will fall out". He was obviously thinking of monkies and paying them peanuts.

[Twin Head]

Unfortunately, AH will survive and there will always be new bright dedicated bums on old tired and frustrated seats. AH will offer the new recruits 5% less and still be 2% better off after their lustrious 3% rise in the past:mad: .

[B.A.N.D]

If they think that they can just slide a new bum onto the Captains side in the 412 from elsewhere in the company then they are dangerously deluding themselves! Being a great longranger driver with many thousands of hours does not readily translate to being a competant Captain of an IFR "systems" aircraft without the requisite time, training and experience being invested into said pilot by the company. The Customs contract up in the Strait is worth a heap of dollars so I hope it doesn't end up in someone having a monumental prang just because they got stuffed into a seat they were not quite ready for?:sad:


If the above comes true I wouldn't be surprised to see more crewies walk.
Who in their right mind would want to be in a machine at night, in the gloop, low level with a pilot who has limited experience in that type.
5 cent :uhoh: 50 cent :eek:

[Blackhawk9]

Whats Happening in the Torres Straits?..................Obviously nothing ! As the 412 is in a million bits on a major inspection at Redcliff airport, so AH will getaway without IFR twin drivers for a couple of months up north while the work is carried out, how companies like AH get away with major downtime and noncomplience on major contracts which the likes of Bristow and CHC can't do is beyond me!!!!! But you get what you pay for! No backup in Torres strait, old clunker under performing AB in Adelaide, and all this from the big Australian owned operator....... No thanks i'll work for a reliable foreign owned company thank you!
P.S. I just hope the boys doing the refurb don't get there fingers burned with payment like some have in the past, they are a top bunch of blokes.

[Twin Head]

I find it hard to believe that there is no fine for heavy maintenance without a backup twin in place. The shores of Oz are open to the public:eek:

[benq]

[quote=Blackhawk9;2830234]Whats Happening in the Torres Straits?..................Obviously nothing ! As the 412 is in a million bits on a major inspection at Redcliff airport, so AH will getaway without IFR twin drivers for a couple of months up north while the work is carried out,


Black H9

Where did you get the couple months for major from.....I heard it will be down for a max time of 5 weeks, well thats what AH are planning on and thats what they have told the customer...Apparently..:D :D good one

Heard the last major was also a very quick one 4 weeks comes to mind

Can you imagine the corrision they would find if they do the job properly and strip the machine back to bear metal, after nearly 7 years in the tropics and overflying salt water its entire life...
Eh, but that would cost money....
I hope some one can keep us informed on the progress of this machine while its down there
Some one told me the other day down time for majors for 412s overseas are generally 3 to 6 months..
5 weeks seems a bit quick

What do you guys say?

[PPRuNeUser0212]

Think you might find poor ol RHJ has had corrosion in it for a long time, considering it spent a while sitting outside at Thursday Is with the salt spray before moving into the hangar on Horn Is. Would be scarey if it got stripped right down.
Think you will find AH will have to pay if the 412 is off line for any substantial time, thats why "it will be finished in 4 - 5 weeks"
And for info the "crewies" are Observers, some with winch endorsements and a dodgy check and training system. Good place to get night hours though.
The front line pilots and observers are a good bunch and put up with a lot of ****e, doesn't sound like much has changed in the last few years from management.

[helopat]

A former CEO had told staff up there that " Shake any tree and a pilot will fall out".

That just blows my mind...can't believe anyone would ACTUALLY say some shiite like that.

HP

[Op's Normal]

LHS,
I hear that in the early days, (on TI), the check and training system for the crewies was quite good when it was run by the Check and Training Pilot. By all reports the initial training was of a good standard run by a very respected pilot in the industry and an ex RAAF crewie. The "specialist" training for the Customs contract was ground breaking with every flight. I'm told they developed their modus operandi on the trot for night surveillance in helicopters.

The comment of "Shake any tree,,,,,,," shows that the management acually believed their own hype. Maybe they need to get the chainsaws out.

[benq]

" Shake any tree and a pilot will fall out".


I have it on good authority,this was told to the pilots at Reef during a meeting when the ex -CEO (hang on for the ride?watch this space/ god bless his soul) first joined Reef and went up there to met the staff at TI...

Can you imagine.......

But they were warned by a fellow pilot who knew from previous experience, the shannaigans of the incoming CEO...

Apparently the pilot in the above handed in his resignation 1 minute after learning this particular person was coming on board...

They were warned

[PPRuNeUser0212]

Ops Norm
you are quite right, the night surveillance in a helicopter was training on the run and is a good operation, working (well used to, not sure these days) with some bulky and sometimes inefficient electronic gear. The crew co ordination was good, especially doing a low level night sun run on a trawler on a moonless night. Working with FLIR and NVGs all ground breaking.
QR staff have provided some quality check and training in the past and Reef used to have a very good C&T pilot.
These days I hear all Observer and winch op check and training is carried out in house, as some outside agencies have given a few bad reports and recommeded more training for some.
Hopefully the boys and girls up there get the wages the are asking for and deserve.
I wonder if it's still the case, if anyone doesn't want to live in Cairns (engineers excepted) they have to pay their own way to Cairns to catch the flight to Horn Is.

[Nigel Osborn]

It's quite normal for a company to stipulate where you need to live. If you wish to live further away, then most companies will get you to pay the extra fare involved. Occasionally where the work base can be anywhere in Oz or overseas, then the company may let you choose. Even with a big company when I worked in India, I had to live in Perth, which of course is not hard to take.:)

[eagle 86]

I don't think anyone answered my question - is this the same company that expects to be a frontrunner in the NSW EMS tendering process?
GAGS
E86

[Op's Normal]

eagle 86

I have heard from the boys and girls up there that AH has rated themselves as contenders. :*

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

What a very sad state of affairs? What year are we in? How on earth do management teams at Australian Helicopters go to bed with a clear conscience at night knowing how poorly their company is now perceived by the broader industry? This thread has only cemented in place, many lines of thinking about this company and its a testament to ongoing bad management. I would be interested in hearing if these guys start advertising for a new CEO or someone to take some responsibility and guide this company out of such a large mess. In this day and age, to think that management can treat staff...PEOPLE...with such disregard and disrespect...make such poor decisions on almost every level, begs the question, do these guys have s@#t for brains or what?

As for shaking the tree comment, what an arrogant and ignorant comment. Start shaking those trees my friend...perhaps those pilots are not there anymore, or if they, someone came in before you and shook harder!!!

[B.A.N.D]

Wow, I don't think I've heard anything positive about this company in 121 posts (except maybe that the people at the coal face are 'good blokes').

This extent of disgruntlement doesn't happen overnight. It's in deep. Is it possible for this current management to fix this????

If you ask me this co. sounds ripe for a takeover.

[benq]

you really think so band
a take over
i dont think so who in the hell would in their right minds takeover a bunch of Amateurs like this, why would you do this..
marine pilot transfers in singles.i dont think so, a takeover company would only be interested in an operation with a good cash flow, a great balance sheet, and good assets and/or contracts..
AH has good contract but bugger all cash flow, negative balance sheet,assets are old and past their due date, the customs contract is great ,BUT they under cut themselves to the :mad: house,,

What is needed is a new company to handle the customs /ems contracts in northern australia...
a company that is decicated to the contract, a company that will make money for the shareholder and will look after the personnel involved also, a company that will have the balls to stand up and say this is such and such, we employ the best of the best of the best, we pay the best for the best and if you dont like then:mad: off
that will get the job done and do it to the best

What happens in these companies is the person that is running them gets so full of them selves they forget that its a collection of people that make the company not just them..
the crew to start with...with out them you are screwed

come on some company in Australia Have a go

There is the chance of good financial gains in these contracts

all you need is a 412 (or 139) and a L4 or squirrel in horn island and a 412 or 139 in gove..

Yes me Laddies the rumor is that the admirals want to have a ship in the territory full time ....... BUT

Who is going to do this
NOT AH thats for sure,,,they will be flat out paying for the major that is being done at the moment..

so step right up me laddies...lets se what you are made of

yippee ke yea

[helopat]

I heard these knuckleheads think they're in with a chance for the NSW EMS contract (SNORT! GUFFAW!!) Any comments (c'mon, you know you want to).

HP

[McGowan]

Gentlmen,
Everybody seems to forget the fact the this kind of work has in the past and will for the forseeable future go to the lowest bidder...........
The lowest bidder can't and won't pay top dollar for "the best of the best". He will make do with those that come along and take the job. And the pity of it all is that those who pay the contractor don't know who is what in this industry, they are usually bean counters or upper management who have never even seem a helicopter close up.

[itoldyouso]

there will always be tree shakers!

the only difference is the size of the tree and hence what falls out of it!:ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh::u gh::ugh::ugh::ugh::ugh:

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

Wondering how the company can keep the contract if they have lost so many pilots and observers? Do these machines fly themselves?

Surely the Chief Pilot must be pushing bullets out of his backside worrying about how to keep any remaining pilots or recruit new ones. Is it true that no one applied for the job of 412 driver? Wow!

Shake that tree a little harder my friend. Shake it - shake it - SHAKE IT!!!

A friend once said, "the more things change, the more they stay the same"...any truth to that one here chaps?

[Op's Normal]

Here we are at Post 128.
There has been a lot said ablout AH and none of it good.
So what can we deduce from this forum?
1. Pilots don't grow on trees.
2. If you pay, you play.
3. Big contracts don't automatically puy you in the same league as CHC and Bristows. You have to grow up to run with the Big Boy's.
4. AH can't identify what their biggest asset is.
5. Doing it cheap is doing it nasty.
6. Empire building gives something else to crash.
7. The "Rats" who saw the writing on the wall may well be "Wise Owls".

It is a shame that the AH managers don't know that they don't know. The blundering may yet continue for some time until the Clients realise who/what they are getting for their dollar. :ugh:

[ron_burgundy]

***********BREAKING NEWS***********

2 more 412 rats have just left the building with a new found spring in their step

all the best fella's

I'm Ron Burgundy
Stay classy

[bellfest]

:eek: :eek: :eek: :eek:
Is there any left:confused:

[Op's Normal]

2 more "RATS" ??????
I think 2 more WISE OWLS !

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

Love your work guys. I am intrigued though to find out if there are any drivers left, or is management still too busy shaking the tree to notice that another pilot or two left?:{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{ :{

Its funny stuff really. Comical almost. The management and directors of this company must be something else.:*

To those who have left, I salute you chaps! Well done!!!:D

[ron_burgundy]

Rats or owls the guys are moving on to bigger and better things, both nice fellas along with those already departed (observers and pilots).:ok: :ok: :ok: :ok:

Hopefully the management will see things need to change we will all watch with interest clearly some of them are the ones that should be moving on.:mad:


I'm Ron Burgundy
Stay classy Planet Earth

[benq]

I am noting with great interest the lack of advertisement for pilots from A/H in the newspapers...

Perhaps they are going to call back the ex CEO ( shake a coconut and a bunch of pilots will fall out/ watch this space/hang on for the ride/ god bless his soul) to see if he can get them to join..

I thought the customer would have been getting a bit worried about this at this stage.

Is there anyone left at horn island,or is it being run by kelpies and ground staff?????????????????????????????

[ron_burgundy]

They did advertise for 412 pilots and as correctly reported noone applied. You would think that alarm bells would start ringing with company directors, apparently not. It is also a fact that noone of the guys were considered for AH's new adelaide base as they didn't meet the requirements???????????

The idea to move/train the current 206 guys is a good thing for them but who is going to train them, the now remaining 412 captains are former 206 guys with the minimum 412 time trained by the departed rats, while all of the current 206 guys have alot of time under the belts there is obviously going to be a lack of experience to pass on and with the oncoming wet season things are only going to get more hairy in the straits.

Feel sorry for both the Horn Is Op's managers who are both losing the battle of team moral.

Ron Burgundy
Stay Classy Torres Straits/Planet Earth

[RWJackOfAllTrades]

Just a thought...even though I currently work touring o/s for a good company earning good dollars, certainly better than what these poor chaps earn at AH (not much more, but just a little), I felt too sorry for them sitting by idle. So much so, I thought stuff it, throw caution to the wind...I might send this link off to the Customs website to Coastwatch section...is this not a Customs/Coastwatch.Coast Guard contract that AH service. Stuff them...if these useless :mad: ards cannot see the :mad: it from the clay, then as Reg would say in the movie "The Castle", yeah ":mad: uck 'em".

Again, good show boys. These guys at AH management get what they deserve by not looking after their staff and for being hopeless in every respect of the word.

[B.A.N.D]

Ron,
Is this fact or a prediction? (2 more rats jumping ship).

If it's fact - it's a sad state of affairs for this co.

If it's a prediction - the management better pull their finger out quick :mad: ing smart and give the troops reason to want to stay.

B.A.N.D

[zoomcage]

Surely with the shortage of crews AH are experiencing it would be an incentive to let the crews live anywhere in Oz and fully pay for their travel. It doesn’t appear they have the luxury to say we will only pay for your travel from Cairns.

Two more left? How many pilots do they have left now?

[benq]

Yeah band

2 more 412 drivers apparently handed in their notice the other day.
That leaves 2 to do the work of 4 with no holidays or time off...
I hope they have got that fatigue management system sorted out

Go the RATS

[Op's Normal]

Ron B.
My sources up in the Torres Strait could not confirm your report of two more depatures.

Mind you, more are expected.
Evidently, even after the recent visit by the CEO, there has been no comms with the guy's and gal's about the future.
This would instill monumental amounts of confidence at the coal face. :confused:

[ron_burgundy]

Op's

the news i got was that 2 more had left, will now have to check, obviously we're running out of sources up there

[Op's Normal]

Seems all's quiet on the northern front.
Is this the calm before the storm ??? :suspect:

[benq]

it seems all the rats at A/H have abandoned ship or Drowned>>>

Heard some great Goss but sorry can not put it here yet.... wish i could but can't........

its very good news for the Australian industry...

[rotorwing]

benq

Please do tell. If it is such good news for the Australian idustry then surely the industry has a right to know. Share the information at your soonest.
Keep up the good work.

Cheers
Rotor

[benq]

WELL





NAH



I COULDNT


IT COULD BLOW A GOOD COVER


GO THE FIRES

[helopat]

Well, you're quite the little tease aren't you?:}

[Skitso]

"CRIKEY" Whats happening I go on leave and all this happens...aaahhh well more work when i get back:hmm:

[rotorwing]

I think not. Smoke and mirrors!! Watch this space for the movement hasn't stopped yet!!
Don't forget to turn out the lights!
Cheers
Rotor

[Op's Normal]

Rotorwing, you are dead right, it's not over yet. More movements are about to come to light. WATCH THIS SPACE !

Skitso, a word of advice, don't be left holding the baby, you may need to know where the light switch is. Stay clear of any trees on that island, you never know what will fall out with all that shaking. More than likely just Bat Poo !

[Skitso]

Hey O.N. you may have a point, but joe there has to be some one out here say something else. aussie pays my wage and assists in putting the kids through school etc and keeping the family alive. Another thing also with the job being the (two on two off) roster, is that, if theres a problem at home its quite easy to get back to cairns in a short time compared to other touring locations....So getting back to it.. some choose to moving on and some choose to stay. As you are aware usually when a driver decides to walk "the golden mile", they usually have a much better offer, in which, the preceding company cant offer, and 9 times out of 10 they are on the roster with that company before they quit....:ok:

[movin' up]

Another walked recently, away from 'Australian Helicopters', over to 'Helicopters Australia'

How many more in the pipeline? At least a couple according to what I've heard.

[High Nr]

There seems to be a bit of Smoke and Mirrors here, with the odd spear or two being thrown around.

AH [Marine] was a really well respected company that could hold its own against the big Internationals, so why the anger?

Not that I am coming out of retirement to work on that coast again, but I do have fond memories of working around there. Its just a shame to see a Big Australian taking a beating.

I am very curious about who shook the tree, just the initials would help in that puzzle.

Off to the pokies...cheers.

[rotorwing]

High NR

You say Australian(Marine) were a highly respected company taking it to the fore for Aus.
Australian(Reef Helicopters) were also a very respected helicopter company on the up and up in the Australian Industry. Yet merge these two powerhouses of Australian industry and for some reason it all turns to great Aussie roo poo.
Did the owners/directors of Australian ever take the time to seriously view who they had placed their trust in to run this company and perhaps consider that here is where the problems lie?
Or perhaps it is the owners/directers who are having too much micro management input and not letting managers do their job by blocking them at every turn?
Consider this and perhaps you will find reason for anger grasshopper!
Confucious

[itoldyouso]

Anyone in the know?

Have any more left, or is there anyone left?

Not many lights on!

Itold Youso

[Op's Normal]

High NR, hope you did well at the pokies.
The tree shaking comment was made in the early days of the 412 on TI. Work out the spruker from that.

I also have heard that another pilot from the McKay base has moved and he is definately moving up.

Some very good comments from Rotorwing, all major factors in the state of the AH Torres Strait operation. You have to wonder though, why can't or why won't the management of AH identify the real cause of the mass exodus? Do they believe "it will be right on the day", "we'll get by" ?
From the info I have got, the problem for a lot of the people at the coalface is the lack of integrity of the management in conducting the operation safely and looking after their most valuable asset, THE CREW.
The lack of confidence the, (money making), crews have in the management to at least do the right thing by them is the biggest incentive to move to a better, more transparent operation with fair dinkum people managers.
One of the "magestic" visitors from the head office once said, " if they don't like it they will vote with their feet". Hey, the Ballots are in!

[Op's Normal]

Well, Well, Well !
Here we are just 13 hours since my last post and news is that another two crewies are heading for the Horn Island door.
Their 412 is due to return to service in a week or so. Will AH have time to train and qualify the required numbers to service the Coastwatch contract?
Will the 412 have the magic wand passed over it to have it properly serviced with all inspections and first class maintenance done in the alloted time frame? Therefore filling the crews with the confidence in the machine that is required on overwater night operations.
Me thinks,,,,NOT !
Any word from the Brisbane management team ???
Again, me thinks,,,,NOT ! :ugh:

[rotorwing]

OPS Normal

Well said. Couldn't agree more. Having worked around the world, I have trouble understanding why these guys can't see the problems they are creating for themselves right now. I believe someone said previously that the ballots are in, the voting has been with the feet, and still no reaction. Oh well, goodbye to a once good Australian company I suppose. Bring on the multi-nationals, at least they offer a decent renumeration for the nationals that still decide to work at home.

When you can pluck the petal from my hand Grasshopper............

Cheers
Rotor

[Op's Normal]

Rotor W,
To direct your parting words to the AH management should it read;
"When you pull your heads out of the sand Grasshopper..................."

See ya when I'm lookin' at ya.
Op's

[benq]

Is ahs 412 out of the major service yet?
Must be close,4 weeks is nearly up...

Heard the boys at YHID are really looking forward to flying it

NOT
:D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :D :yuk:

[Op's Normal]

Had a chat the other day with some of the chaps who have moved on from AH.
It seems that regardless of which company these guys have gone to they have realised what a crap deal they were getting from AH.
As said in earlier posts that, it isn't always about money, the treatment they are getting from their new employers sounds very refreshing for them.
AH needs to take a leaf out of their books and learn where their most valuable asset is on the grand scale of things.

[McGowan]

Just wondering, who is doing the maintenance of this 412?
It's just that there are some accusations on this thred that they may not be doing it properly. Big call gentlemen, big call.

[2leftskids]

Work is being done at Redcliffe. And from my experience the company doing the work turns out great aircraft.

[skid shoe]

The prophets of doom are left with egg on the face this time. Australians 412 has been back on Horn Island for over a week now and better than new - literally. The machine is flying better than it ever has. The 5000 hr inspection is a credit to everyone involved. Chook and his team at Redcliff lived up to their reputation for excellence and a few of the engineers and support staff from Australian can take a bow too. The entire exercise shows what can be done with careful planing and quality people.:D :D :D

If you don't believe me then ask the people at Horn Island. That's what I did.

[benq]

Mcgowan

Not saying anything about the company DOING the job,,,heard all good things about them.

A/H are known to do ONLY the required maintenance and not any extra which there is always if you have a machine in the tropics all its life eg There would have to be SOME corrision,,,and knowing this machine there IS,

speaking to a bloke i know O/S,, he told me a 5000 hourly where he is takes about a min 3 months,,not 4 weeks

[itoldyouso]

someone up there said it looks great, but still has minor problems.

did not come out 100% operational!:=

[benq]

skid shoe
"Australians 412 has been back on Horn Island for over a week now and better than new - literally. The machine is flying better than it ever has."

S/S you sound as if you are in A/H management???????????

Well that wouldnt surprise me..... obviously the Redcliffe boys know what they are doing and A/Hs boys dont

Is that what you are saying skid shoe?


skid shoe you seem to be in the real know about this machine. Tell us what was this I heard ( from a reliable source in redcliff) about CORROSION in the left MAIN BEAM?? Doesnt sound good?

Was there any damage found to the head? Cracks etc??
At the last major they did at Horn, one of the I know everything engineers up there drop it on the concrete floor from a height of 60 cm ( enough to chip concrete away)
Pruners who are still at YHID will remember that incident.

:D Glad its up and going again..

[McGowan]

benq, trust me when I say I have no connection what so ever with AH. I know one pilot who works there and that's it.
I have dealt with and have been very very impressed with the engineers at Redcliffe. I just can't see them letting a machine go on line that needs work done on it. That's not the way they work. If they let it back in the air it is ready to go.

[skid shoe]

benq
Sorry to take so long to respond. Computer problems and family commitments have stopped me getting a reply to your questions posted any sooner. You asked if I am AH management.
Answer is no.
I won't say too much because I don't want my opinions mis-construed as anything other than just that - my opinion. Yes I do have a connection with Australian but it is not what I think you're implying and certainly not one that would make me post just to support the company. After nearly 30 years in the industry I've got "connections" in lots of places. I know most of the AH staff on Horn Island so this thread piqued my interest enough that I made a couple of phone calls. The things that I was told were relevent to the direction this thread was taking and I reported in my earlier post what I was told. There is nothing more to it.

I didn't post just to get into a pissing contest with you benq, but the general tone of your last post on this thread is an absolute insult to everyone that was involved in the heavy.

"Obviously the Redcliff boys know what they are doing and the A/H boys don't"........"Is that what you are saying skid shoe?"

Bloke you need to read my first post again. Those are your words champ - not mine. Don't try to put them into my mouth. I hope that one of the AH engineers knows who you are and gives you a black eye. You deserve it for a statement like that.
Those people, both Redcliff and AH alike, planned carefuly, worked bloody long hours and maintained a very high standard of workmanship right throughout the heavy. They deserve any praise that I gave them and probably more. I was able to see the job they did on RHJ over the last few days that the machine was at Redcliff. I was blown away that they still had so much enthusiasm for the task after 5 or 6 weeks of 11 or even 14 hour days, 7 days a week. The only reason Australian were able to get their 412 back on line so fast was that they managed to put together a dammed fine team of just the right people.

benq, you go on to talk about corrosion and cracks in the M/R head. If you know that they found corrosion then can I assume assume that you would know what was done about it? How bad was the corrosion? Was it within limits? Were the engineers able to blend out the corrosion and treat the area IAW the aircraft manuals or an approved repair scheme? Have Australian put an inspection in place to monitor the corrosion area? or do they even need to?
OR ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE AN ORDINARY MAINTENANCE EVENT THAT WAS REACTED TO APPROPRIATELY OUT TO BE SOMETHING IT IS NOT?

As for the head being dropped. Mate that was a couple of years and close enough to 3000 hours ago. The head was inspected iaw all the right manuals and advice from Bell at the time. During the 5000 hr inspection just done, the head was sent to Helitech for O/H. That includes crack testing does it not. The old china plate running Helitechs O/H shop doesn't miss much. I doubt that there is a better man anywhere to do that sort of work. If he is prepaired to release the head then there is nothing wrong with it. Again I'll ask ARE YOU TRYING TO MAKE THINGS OUT TO BE SOMETHING THEY ARE NOT?

benq, reading back over this and various other threads that you have started or posted to, it is obvious that you have some real issues with Australian. I think that you have let your bitterness cloud your view. The over all tone of many of your posts is anti-AH but I think that this is the first time that you have actually attacked the boys and girls on the floor. You want AH to do better than you perceive them doing so far and yet when they do, you sink to new lows and attack the staff at the coal face. There are some pretty good people on the floor at Australian. They deserve better than the crap you are chucking their way. Keep having a go at Australians management if you must. I agree that they have brought a lot of it on themselves - BUT LEAVE THE STAFF ALONE.

Take what I have said here as constructive criticism. I don't know who you are (although I probably do know you - maybe even shared a beer or two outside the units at YHID). And I don't know your motivations, but if you continue to post the way that you have here, then the credability of anything you say is questionable. Why don't you enlighten us a little and tell us all why you are down on AH in such a big way.

skid shoe
PS: This will probably be my last post on rotorheads. The forum belongs to you pilots and engineering is my game. I'll go and play in my own forums.

[benq]

SkidShoe

Your point is taken on board
I'll have a crack at the management and company YES
the staff NO that was not what i wanted to do and neither did I intend to do..( words can offend and the offender doesnt even realise he has offended)):ugh:

If I have Offended any of the staff at horn and the Redcliffe shop I am sincerely and humbly SORRY.

[MPT]

G'day All,

Would have been interesting if it found itself in the same vicinity as the tail rotor on the way past. Lucky boys....... :eek: (From ATSB Weekly report)


31-Oct-06, 200606722, Incident, 5, 31km NE Horn Island, Aerodrome QLD
Bell Helicopter Co 412EP. Other Aerial Work OCTA G
During the cruise, the helicopter's left sliding door bubble window blew out. The helicopter returned to land at Horn Island without further incident.

Cheers,

MPT

[benq]

mpt
this happened about 2 weeks ago

I was going to post the news but would get slagged as a !!!t so didnt bother and I certainly didnt want to upset any one who worked their guts out on this machines last major

and it actually happened twice..

the first time the window blow out and landed in the school grounds at horn ( lucky there were no injuries i would say)
the team recovered it and stuck it in again...
then it blew out again
dont know what happen to the last window,,grown tired of this......

actually the reason i didnt report it here was i was leaving it to see who had the b--ls to do it and how long it would take to appear here..


i actually deleted this thread so i dont know how it got back on...

cheers

AH i have a bubble window in my back yard if you want to claim it

[skid shoe]

benq check your pm's. It's friendly!!

[rotorwing]

Is it true? Hearing on the grape vine that another experienced twin driver has joined the out going tide in the Straits. Must be a headache trying to run a roster in those parts.
Cheers
rotor

[Op's Normal]

Rotorwing.
I have heard the same report.
It is self generating nasty cycle the AH management have brought upon themselves. Ignoring the sitution within the company has yet again proven that you can only stuff your people around for so long. For example, the AH Pilots Workplace Agreement is now twelve months over due with no positive outlook at present, and the twin drivers can get a much better deal without too much trouble at all. I can see that the lesser experienced single engine drivers will be pushed up into Multi-Engine IFR positions well before they are ready.
On the AH website, they spruke their "Commitment to Safety". I don't think that will be the case at all.
The extra workload on the remaining twin Captains will just keep increasing until something gives, I hope it is not the "Safety Commitment"
Well done to the out-going twin driver, it can only get better from here on in.
AH Management,,,, Wake up and smell the Jet A-1.

[rotorwing]

Hey Op's

Good to hear you're still in cyberspace!! Thought we had lost you there for a while. Got to agree with you totally and still worry about that "Safety Commitment" that a certain company proposes it has. I would suggest that the only thing keeping things safe would be the crew(skeleton) involved on the flight line and little to do with the incompetents involved further up the ladder. Strength to ya Laddies!!
Cheers
Rotor:ugh: :ugh:

[Op's Normal]

Has the Australian Customs Service realised who/what they are dealing with ????
Heard the other day that AH's tender for he GOVE Coastwatch contract has been a failure.
Yes, the smug attitude and failing aptitude of AH Management seems to have come around to bite them on the Bot-Bot.
Could this be a sign of things to come? :ouch:

[itoldyouso]

Rotorwing,
How many are left in that tropical paradise?

It seems like a revolving door.

any oportunities for others, then.

Itold Youso

[Op's Normal]

An interesting phone conversation the other day. I'm told another crewie has resigned.
So, in the last few weeks, two twin drivers and one crewie have resigned, The Gove Coastwatch contract tender failed, ( won by Helicopters Australia I hear), the Engineers Workplace Agreement didn't get signed off, the Pilots Workplace Agreement didn't get signed off.
Could this be the start of " SURVIVOR. HORN ISLAND" ?
Well, the Tribe has spoken. :ugh:

[Skitso]

Hi guys, seems you fellas have a good finger on the pulse of AH as weak as it maybe?...But alas there could be a break through in regards to the pilots EBA...:ok: Yes there has been quite a few that have departed? or as a few up here are saying "Fallen on the sword"... the sacrifical lambs for our cause... who knows now we may get that rise...keep truckin..:)

[benq]

hey skitso

tell me how they are doing the 2 on 2 off with a 24 hour coverage with only 2 412 captains,, seeing that apparently 1 capt went up and packed his stuff during his hols and went to better places,,apparently!
How does A/H do this???
the fatigue management system must work after all.
I suppose it makes the roster easy to do!

hang in there skitso

[Op's Normal]

HEY SKITSO

Well,,,, did you get the rise you spoke of in your previous post?
I heard the AH "boss of all things flying" has been up there. Did you guys get the resolution you are after or did you just get another one up the Jexie?
As we have read through out this thread AH management are in total denial of there being a need to revue your pay and conditions.

The truth is out there.
Good luck :ok:

[Skitso]

Hey there OPS, sorry not a thing to report matey....:rolleyes: no doubt i will let you know. Currently enjoying a new edition to the family another (skitso) bull to excite the universe..:ok: keep on truckin...

[Op's Normal]

Congrats Skitso and Mrs Skitso.
I hope all are well.

Op's

[Op's Normal]

Skitso.
A little bird told me that you are heading off to the AH Adelaide Base. Have the AH management made a promise or two?

[Skitso]

:D hey OPs hows it going, Mate not much stuff gets by you as it seems:E... As a saying goes there are many roads to the land of milk and honey...:O hope is all well again OP's, chat later...

[Op's Normal]

Good to hear from you Skitso.
Remember the old Scottish song,,,,"You take the high road and they'll take the LOW road". Good luck Joe, I hope it all works out for you.
Just don't let them pull ya pants down, (we all know what happens after that).
Keep ya ball in the middle.
Op's :ok: