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A330 Dreamer
14th Aug 2006, 19:21
Evening,

soon i shall be changing over from a PA-28 to the chippie

Any advice other than "remember to bring my feet with me"?

I've been told the handling characteristics are really good on this aeroplane - but I am wondering, how good are they?

also - where can I buy a flight suit other than transair?

'India-Mike
14th Aug 2006, 19:47
The flight isn't over until the engine stops - you'll need to 'fly' it on the ground much more so than with the PA28. So constantly be aware of where the wind is coming from, and apply controls accordingly.
Flight suits from Mart Aviation, perhaps?
Only other advice is, if it's the Chipmunk I think it is, DON'T BREAK IT:ok:

fireflybob
14th Aug 2006, 21:39
My favourite aeroplane!

Make sure you a get a good instructor to check you out, etc.

Have you flown a tailwheel a/c before? On ab initio instruction in the Chipmunk I used to teach the take off in two stages. Student to handle throttle and rudders only until he can keep it more or less straight. Then a few take offs with student on throttle and stick only. Put the two together and I have taught the take off in one detail! Throw the lot at them and they can be all over the place. That said once mastered it's a piece of cake!

Landing - once all three wheels on the ground - get the stick FULLY back and hold it there - this will ensure extra directional control during the landing roll-out.

It a GREAT machine and a delight to fly - Happy Flying!

MIKECR
14th Aug 2006, 22:03
Great fun to fly, you'll never fly a PA28 again! The chippie I fly has been converted to a Lycoming, so sadly its no longer aerobatic but still good fun. Very light and responsive, a real delight. The wheel brake set up takes a little getting used to but soon becomes second nature. Other than that I cant think of any real vice's, flies just like any other taildragger. Just a pity there's only 2 hours in the tanks, not really a 'go places' machine(I suppose it was never designed to be though)!

nosewheelfirst
14th Aug 2006, 22:13
Indeed the flight is not over when the engine stops :}

ACL
14th Aug 2006, 22:20
I recently converted on to the Chipmunk - first attempt at taxying and I was wondering what on earth I was letting myself in for, but six hours later was signed off and solo. Like riding a bike after that. Today I flew G-HDAE (Airborne Classics Ltd) fresh from it's CofA (public cat) to Enstone where it will be on the flying club fleet for tailwheel conversions. Just fantastic to be up in the Chippy again after a few weeks in the workshop.

I think top quality instruction is key to a successful conversion. Aim to nail one thing at a time as it's easy to feel that you've been thrown in the deep end.

Photo of G-HDAE here:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j176/ACL_2006/G-HDAE_6.jpg

'India-Mike
14th Aug 2006, 22:22
nosewheelfirst - or in my case, the flight wasn't over WHEN the engine stopped....:(

Runaway Gun
14th Aug 2006, 22:34
Do some serious study about the theory of tailwheel flights, and ask your instructor about any uncertain points.

In particular, think about -

* How to taxi when you cannot see over the nose.

* Memorise the taxi attitude as it will come in handy later when flaring.

* Control positions whilst taxiing with various headwind/tailwind and crosswind components.

* Gyroscopic precession and Assymetric Advancing Blade effects, and again how crosswind can help/hinder.

* Possibly opposite rudder inputs from previous types.

BroomstickPilot
14th Aug 2006, 22:36
A330 Dreamer,

In addition to what has been said so far, with all of which I thoroughly concur, I would say the following.

With the best will in the world, flying the Pa28 you are used to, with its soggy handling and control yoke, is like driving a lorry. The Chipmunk, with its crisp, finger-light, sensitive handling is like a small and agile sports car by comparison. It will find and show up any shortcomings in your airmanship, that's why it was the RAF's primary trainer for so long, so get a good instructor and go carefully.

One thing you will probably never have seen before is its 'P Type' grid ring compass in front of the control column and almost between your knees. I think you will find this infinitely superior to the little plastic things we use today.

Chipmunk is fully aerobatic. In particular, you can experience spinning in it, although you must not go beyond six turns or she goes flat.

I do envy you your chance to fly this lovely little aeroplane: enjoy it, it's special.

Broomstick.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
15th Aug 2006, 00:53
You are privaledged! I have been flying our Chippy, G-BCSL, since 1979 and it is my favorite aeroplane.

The Chippy is not at all difficult in any way - service pilots soloed it from zero flying experience in very few hours. But it is demanding to fly it well, which I hope is your aim.

If you can taxy it consistantly accurately and well, you can fly it. Coming from the PA28 you will be amazed at how aeroplanes can (and should) handle once you've flown a Chippy - you will not want to go back to the Cherrytree for pure flying fun. It will bore the pants off you after the DHC1. But the PA28 is a practical A to B tourer, which the lovely Chippy, with its 18 gallons of fuel, no luggage space, and limited nav facilities is not.

These machines are becoming ever more difficult to keep in the air due limited spares availabilty - so try not to break anything. And make very sure your instructor emphasises and trains you in sympathetic engine handling that the vintage Gipsy requires if it is to live to a reasonable number of hours.

But most of all - enjoy!

Here's me in the front seat of our's (care of the excellent DamianB) having just started up at Woburn deer park at the dH Moth rally last August, for return to Liverpool John Lennon where we are based:

http://i18.photobucket.com/albums/b132/GZK6NK/vince1.jpg

SSD

jabberwok
15th Aug 2006, 05:23
Don't sit back and relax when you've just put the wheels on the deck. A nosewheel jobbie will tend to be self steering on the ground - a tailwheel will be just the opposite. You will be very busy between touchdown and getting down to taxi speed.

Chippik
17th Aug 2006, 16:02
I agree with you on that India Mike, dont bend it, Flightsuits are ok but being in the US youll be paying quite a bit for P&P as well as import tax as well I suspect. Don't use transair its a bit pricey, try mart aviation or ebay for that matter.
Buy yourself a pair of RAF capeskin gloves (again dont go to transair) best bit of kit ever
In addition to the flightsuits you could have your own made (and tailored possibly) by Jays/Jaybrand racewear its what I use and has come from a well known vintage military aircraft operator

ACL
17th Aug 2006, 21:28
I'd steer clear of expensive flight gear, as it is definitely going to get dirty during the post-flight clean up. I use an old RAF flying suit - zip pockets, sleeve pen holders and calf map pockets are essential as it's your only in-flight storage in the Chippy, and you can't pick up anything you drop (worse still, dropped items could end up somewhere you really don't want them). Gloves are definitely useful - apart from keeping clean, and grip, there are opportunities for snagging your hands on bits of locking wire, etc around the cockpit.

ACL

MLS-12D
17th Aug 2006, 22:06
Photo of G-HDAE here:
http://i80.photobucket.com/albums/j176/ACL_2006/G-HDAE_6.jpg
I'm not sure that that is the absolute worst paint scheme that I've ever seen ... but certainly it is a contender! :yuk:

BillieBob
17th Aug 2006, 23:17
....you must not go beyond six turns or she goes flatThat's interesting, the flight test schedule calls for an eight turn spin in each direction and I've never known one 'go flat'.

vulcanpilot
20th Aug 2006, 20:44
SLOOOOOW with the throttle when bunging on power - otherwise the Gypsy has a habit of getting a bit upset which is not what you want just when you need it :eek:

Also if the landing is looking even a bit wonky, chuck it away and go around - certainly untill you get proficient and most definitely if you are landing on tarmac. Bouncing is not good for the old girl.

Try and keep the tail up as long as you can (if you are doing rollers and not 3-pointers) as some aircraft have a nasty habit of shimmying the tailwheel.

And as most have said, the flight isn't over until the engine has stopped & don't be 'bullied' by ATC to expidite a vacate - I did that once and very nearly ended up pointing the wrong way. Remember where the G of G is and that the tail will always want to lead :} when you are on the ground.

Most of all, have a damned good time flying a real airplane. I still fly a PA28 mostly as the wife really doesn't much like the 'squeezed in' feeling of the back seat of the Chippy, but I have to have a regular fix whenever I can. You won't regret converting to type and whilst it isn't a Spitfire, it still has some solid history in training the elite.

Flying Lawyer
20th Aug 2006, 21:01
A wonderful aircraft and, once you've got used to it, a joy to fly.

Described recently by a distinguished test pilot with numerous more exotic types in his logbook as having the best control harmonisation of all aircraft he'd flown.

Happy memories from just a few years ago evoked by BEagle in another forum recently - Link (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showpost.php?p=2619906&postcount=54) :)


FL

Dan Winterland
21st Aug 2006, 05:21
A lot of PPLs will go "Ooh, taildraggers!" usually accompanied by a sucking of teeth or a shake of the head when the Chippy is mentioned. Don't let them put you off. The Chippy is one of the easiest aircraft to fly ever built- it's just different and it's learning the differences which will take the time. If it seems to take longer than expected don't despair. You will find it will just click after a while. It's an amazing aircraft for instilling confidence and has the nicest handling of any light aircraft I have ever flown. I learnt to fly in the RAF on the Chippy and soloed in 8hr20. Later in my career, I instructed on it for three years and sent some people solo in less time than that. Interestingly, those who arrived with some flying experience in spam cans had no advantage over those with no experience.

A few points:

The taxying attitude is the same as the landing attitude. Remember it. Also, most Chippy accidents happen on the ground. Get the nose weaving and never taxy into an enclosed space without being confident you have room. It's much safer to stop the engine and push the aircraft. Keep the stick back when taxying except when taxying downwind in strong winds when the stick should be neutral otherwise you run the risk of a gust getting under the elevator and tipping the tail up.

The approach speed is 60 knots with full flap. Exceed that by even a couple of knots and you will find it floats and makes the landing harder. Nail 60 knots and you will find it much easier to land. However, it is stable on the approach and easier than a PA28 to maintain speed. The crosswind limit in RAF sevice was 15knts. This is an airframe limit and you will find you will run out of rudder at 16 knots if you try to exceed it in a three point landing. You can increase it by 'wheeling' on and using the rudder/brake, but this is groundloop territory and your instructor shouldn't be teaching it at the conversion stage.

Groundlooping is one of the horror stories you will hear from the uninitiated. It happens because on the ground a taildragger's c of g is behind the wheels and will try to overtake the wheels if there is any drag from them. Prime groundloop conditions are light crosswinds with no headwind. Be aware of it and be prompt with the use of rudder. If it starts to go, don't be too quick to use differential brake - you will proabably exacerbate the situation. And if you do groundloop, don't worry. The aircraft is very strong and damage is unlikely with the castering tailwheel. I have experienced maybe a couple of dozen with no damage.

Be careful about using the brake lever on the ground. Use if harshly on the landing roll, you might find the tail lifting. And if you have any rudder applied when you use it, the brake will come on that side first.

You will fly aerobatics - the aircraft is designed for it and it's delightful. In the RAF syllabus, students often could fly a loop before first solo and were cleared solo aerobatics at 30 hours. However, it's not an Extra 300 and those aeros will have to be gentle. Pull lots of g at once and you will lose too much speed and use up lots of valuable height. The engine has a basic carburettor and will stop when inverted. It stops because the float goes to what is now the top of the float chamber and opens the jet fully. This leads to a 'rich cut' and too much fuel is the reason for the engine stopping. Close the throttle while inverted and you will find the engine picks up much quicker. Learn stall turns to the right first. Going left is opposing the engine rotation and much harder. If you mess up an aerobatic manouevre and think you're going to tailslide, hold the controls very firmly in the central position. If they 'snatch' to full deflection, airframe damage is probable.

The Chipmunk spin is very stable. It was cleared up to eight turns in RAF service, four turns loses you about a 1000' with another 300' for the recovery and is much more comfortable. The Chippy incipient spin stage is the first 360 degrees which is easily recoverd by centralising the controls.

Enjoy!

Flying Lawyer
21st Aug 2006, 06:32
The RAF still retains two Chipmunks on charge for pilot training.

They are assigned to the Battle of Britain Memorial Flight and used for conversion and continuation training. Pilots selected for the BBMF usually have no previous tail-wheel experience - unless they gained it outside the RAF.

One of them, WK518, is a very special Chipmunk

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v146/FlyingLawyer/chipmunk1.jpg

Very special to me anyway - I did my first solo in it in 1971. :)
(The picture posted by BEagle - link in my previous post - is probably of WD345 which was the aircraft I usually flew, as did he.)

WK518 was delivered to the RAF in January 1952 and started its service life at Cranwell. It subsequently served with the University of London Air Squadron at what was then RAF White Waltham, and eventually went to the BBMF in 1983.

54 years continuous service. :ok:


FL

B Fraser
21st Aug 2006, 07:44
Get your instructor to climb to 5,000 feet and demonstrate what can go wrong if you are low and slow on your base turn to final. Ease her back to about 50 kts and turn steeply..... wow ! It will teach you to have a lot of respect for airspeed.

Enjoy it !

BEagle
21st Aug 2006, 08:01
Ah yes, FL - WK518 does indeed bring back a few memories! Glad to hear that the BBMF are still using it!

I flew some aeros in a Chippie not so long ago - the noise, smell and vibration were all still there! But no shotgun cartridge starter, being a civilianised aircraft...

However did we manage with ULAS, the AEF, Benson, Abingdon, Andover, plus numerous flying schools all quite busy - yet no Mode S..... In fact not even Mode A, a 10-channel VHF radio, no navkit...... But no-one ever had a mid-air.

Flying Lawyer
21st Aug 2006, 09:09
True.
The only 'incident' I remember was when a VR pilot with 6 AEF, not one of ours, taxied into a WLAC Cherokee taxiing on the civvy side of the airfield.
As AW pointed out in his inimitable style at briefing the next morning, it provided 'an unfortunate but nonetheless useful' illustration of why our QFIs emphasised the importance of weaving the nose.
It certainly did! :eek: I wonder if the stude in the Cherokee ever flew again.

I used to fly a friend's civilianised Chippie some years later. It seemed odd at first not going through the pre-start cartridge procedure - and I rather missed the bang and that distinctive smell when it fired. The strangest feeling of all was sitting on a cushioned seat-box instead of a parachute. :)

'India-Mike
21st Aug 2006, 09:22
It's such a special aeroplane - do a search on PPrune for any Chipmunk-related thread and you'll struggle to find a negative comment. Responses from the great and good as well as the newbies.
And it's an appeal that endures across the generations. At my club at the weekend I watched 3 youngsters being briefed for a variety of exercises on our Chipmunk, from effects of controls (a 15 year old ab initio student) through to a couple of guys in their very early 20's doing initial tailwheel conversion (from PA28) and initial aeros (an already Chipmunk-experienced bloke, despite his youth!)
Our Chipmunk has done 20 hours in 3 weeks - says something about its appeal:)

Shaggy Sheep Driver
21st Aug 2006, 10:06
A lot of PPLs will go "Ooh, taildraggers!" usually accompanied by a sucking of teeth or a shake of the head when the Chippy is mentioned. Don't let them put you off. The Chippy is one of the easiest aircraft to fly ever built- it's just different and it's learning the differences which will take the time. If it seems to take longer than expected don't despair. You will find it will just click after a while. It's an amazing aircraft for instilling confidence and has the nicest handling of any light aircraft I have ever flown. I learnt to fly in the RAF on the Chippy and soloed in 8hr20. Later in my career, I instructed on it for three years and sent some people solo in less time than that. Interestingly, those who arrived with some flying experience in spam cans had no advantage over those with no experience.
A few points:
The taxying attitude is the same as the landing attitude. Remember it. Also, most Chippy accidents happen on the ground. Get the nose weaving and never taxy into an enclosed space without being confident you have room. It's much safer to stop the engine and push the aircraft. Keep the stick back when taxying except when taxying downwind in strong winds when the stick should be neutral otherwise you run the risk of a gust getting under the elevator and tipping the tail up.
The approach speed is 60 knots with full flap. Exceed that by even a couple of knots and you will find it floats and makes the landing harder. Nail 60 knots and you will find it much easier to land. However, it is stable on the approach and easier than a PA28 to maintain speed. The crosswind limit in RAF sevice was 15knts. This is an airframe limit and you will find you will run out of rudder at 16 knots if you try to exceed it in a three point landing. You can increase it by 'wheeling' on and using the rudder/brake, but this is groundloop territory and your instructor shouldn't be teaching it at the conversion stage.
Groundlooping is one of the horror stories you will hear from the uninitiated. It happens because on the ground a taildragger's c of g is behind the wheels and will try to overtake the wheels if there is any drag from them. Prime groundloop conditions are light crosswinds with no headwind. Be aware of it and be prompt with the use of rudder. If it starts to go, don't be too quick to use differential brake - you will proabably exacerbate the situation. And if you do groundloop, don't worry. The aircraft is very strong and damage is unlikely with the castering tailwheel. I have experienced maybe a couple of dozen with no damage.
Be careful about using the brake lever on the ground. Use if harshly on the landing roll, you might find the tail lifting. And if you have any rudder applied when you use it, the brake will come on that side first.
You will fly aerobatics - the aircraft is designed for it and it's delightful. In the RAF syllabus, students often could fly a loop before first solo and were cleared solo aerobatics at 30 hours. However, it's not an Extra 300 and those aeros will have to be gentle. Pull lots of g at once and you will lose too much speed and use up lots of valuable height. The engine has a basic carburettor and will stop when inverted. It stops because the float goes to what is now the top of the float chamber and opens the jet fully. This leads to a 'rich cut' and too much fuel is the reason for the engine stopping. Close the throttle while inverted and you will find the engine picks up much quicker. Learn stall turns to the right first. Going left is opposing the engine rotation and much harder. If you mess up an aerobatic manouevre and think you're going to tailslide, hold the controls very firmly in the central position. If they 'snatch' to full deflection, airframe damage is probable.
The Chipmunk spin is very stable. It was cleared up to eight turns in RAF service, four turns loses you about a 1000' with another 300' for the recovery and is much more comfortable. The Chippy incipient spin stage is the first 360 degrees which is easily recoverd by centralising the controls.
Enjoy!

A very interesting post from Dan Winterland. It's interesting what you say about the crosswind limit - I landed our Chippy at Liverpool earlier this year on 27, with a steady surface wind of 360 at 15. There was an Easy Jet 737 at the hold, and I could see two anxious faces in its cockpit looking up the approach at the Chippy coming in almost sideways! You could almost see the thought bubbles "I hope he doesn't crash and block the runway". The landing wasn't my tidiest, but it was controlled and safe.

A few weeks later I was showing members of the Aircrew Association around Concorde G-BOAC at Manchester. I was on the flight deck chatting to one guy who, it turned out, had zillions of Chipmunk hours from his RAF service. "What would you say is the crosswind limit of the Chipmunk?" I asked him. "15 knots" came the immediate reply.

I've only once, in 27 years of Chippying, felt the tail rise unexpectantly. I was taxying on the apron in a brisk tailwind with the elevator held neutral, when, despite my feet resting on the pedals, a gust blew the rudder to full deflection. That put the brake on hard on that side, and I felt her start to rise. Rapid centralising of the rudder restored things to normal.

It is interesting what Dan says about use of brakes on the landing roll. There was some discussion (I think it was on here) a while back about the RAF insisting on landing with some brake set. I was and am very much against that, since it diminishes rudder movement. I think it's much better to have full rudder available when landing (and also when taking off - final 'brakes fully off' check before rolling), and it that's not enough, you just gently pull back the brake lever with the little finger of the left hand (don't yank it on!), holding the 'lock-on' collar down with that finger as well so you can apply and release small amounts of brake nice and easily and gently. You'll already be holding full rudder, so only the appropriate brake will be applied.

Wheelers are nice in the Chippy. With a good headwind down the runway you can actually come to a stop with the tail still up. And another trick for when you have more experience - tail-up taxying. You can taxy very fast and see where you're going with the tail up, and I do it at Liverpool if there's some distance to go to vacate the runway. But you have to be careful - that really is groundloop territory if you're not careful.

Use of T/O flap is another bone of contention among Chippy pilots. I always use one stage of flap at short field, no flap at big places like Liverpool.

India Four Two
21st Aug 2006, 19:22
There was some discussion (I think it was on here) a while back about the RAF insisting on landing with some brake set.

I very clearly remember when I flew with UBAS at Shawbury in the 60s, the checklist called for brakes off for landing, unless there was a strong crosswind, in which case three notches were set. However, since our boss wanted to preserve his aircraft, we students had a very low crosswind limit - 5 kts I think - so we never had occasion to use the brakes on landing.

A330 Dreamer, I agree with all the advice here - a wonderful aircraft. The only thing better than the RAF T10 in my opinion was the RCAF version, which I flew a few times in the 70s - a bubble canopy and a heater!

davidatter708
21st Aug 2006, 20:07
Can we stop talking bout chippies your making me jelous as i know i probably wont ever get the chance to fly one. oh well its life
David

Pitts2112
21st Aug 2006, 20:20
Speaking of Chippies, have any of you ever seen the photo of the Chippie RG up at Seething? ;) (The photo, I mean, not the aircraft) Having the gear stored must add 20 knots to the cruise!

Pitts2112

Zulu Alpha
21st Aug 2006, 20:30
I suspect the biggest problem is going back to another aircraft afterwards..it will seem so boring.

Learning to fly an aerobatic aircraft is addictive. You're hooked for life.

Welcome to the world of upside down.

Dan Winterland
22nd Aug 2006, 02:50
The RAF Chippy downwind checks were Mixture - Fuel - Flaps - Harness - Hood - Brakes. And I'm sure that those of you who flew them in the Services can remember the useful mnemonic "My Friend Fred Has Hairy Balls".

For the brakes it was 'As Required'. This was to allow some differential braking control on the ground in gusty conditions. But in over a thousand hours in the Chippy, I don't think I used them once. We didn't as a rule - it just increased the risk of losing directional control by over enthusiastic use of the rudder.

So the downwnid checks were always: Brakes.....Off

Gipsy Queen
22nd Aug 2006, 04:05
For the brakes it was 'As Required'. This was to allow some differential braking control on the ground in gusty conditions. But in over a thousand hours in the Chippy, I don't think I used them once. We didn't as a rule - it just increased the risk of losing directional control by over enthusiastic use of the rudder.

So the downwnid checks were always: Brakes.....Off
Oh yes, very definitely "off". If the brake cylinders are brought up for rudder bar operation, the rudder movement is limited accordingly - dangerous. Additionally, this is an absolute essential of the "HASEL" checks.

I have many hours on the DHC1 and onced owned the starboard side of one - needed to sell the other side to pay for the inner wing bay mod. I should have kept t'other side as I was forever bashing the impulse mag (starboard side) with a length of timber to free the sticky mechanism for winter starts.

All de Havilland aircraft had pleasant contol characteristics but the Chipmunk has the best harmonised controls of any aircraft I have ever flown. It is an absolute delight and thirty years after parting with my own aircraft, I still miss it terribly.

Spins are great fun and the aircraft performs these well (with/without spin strakes) but as has been mentioned above, the number of turns should be limited. I never did more than four. After that the attitude flattens (upright and inverted) and when the Chippie goes flat, it stays that way. No recovery. Keep the CG as far forward as possible (full tanks help) and if you have a passenger who fancies some aeros - and if he doesn't, don't bother to take him up - stick him in the front if he is substantially heavier than you.

And remember, the PA28/Cessna 175 and similar Spam Can ilk will fly as well as they are able to and were designed to eliminate any challenges from flying the beastly things. The Chipmunk however, will always be able to "outfly" you and will present a constant spur to precision flying. Get it right and it will reward you immeasurably. Do less well and it may bite but not very hard. An absolute throroughbred.

Oh, how I envy you. :sad:

Chimbu chuckles
22nd Aug 2006, 04:55
I have a total of 1.5 in Chippys....logged while on holidays from my airline flying job some years ago. I had about 1000 hrs tailwheel, mostly in C185s, at the time and was just in 'withdrawal' after several weeks on holidays so I went out to Camden, SW of Sydney, and paid for some dual in one of the prettiest aeroplanes ever built.

As I turned crosswind out of the circuit in my first few minutes airborne I was unable to stop myself exclaiming "what fantastic controls!" out loud to the lady instructor in the rear seat.

40 odd minutes of aerobatics later I headed back to do some circuits...what a joy! Whether 3 pointing or wheelers the aircraft was just so 'communicative' they were easy.

Something I will have to do again. I have never struck an aircraft before or since which has controls that are so perfect....even the 'typically British' quirky brake system was easily mastered after a few minutes and just added to the joy of flying one of the best aircraft ever designed by man.

Dan Winterland
22nd Aug 2006, 06:04
Spins are great fun and the aircraft performs these well (with/without spin strakes) but as has been mentioned above, the number of turns should be limited. I never did more than four. After that the attitude flattens (upright and inverted) and when the Chippie goes flat, it stays that way. No recovery. Keep the CG as far forward as possible (full tanks help) and if you have a passenger who fancies some aeros - and if he doesn't, don't bother to take him up - stick him in the front if he is substantially heavier than you.


The RAF AP101B (pilots flying notes for the Chippy) states,

'After prolonged spinning (six to eight turns) a heavier push force may be necessary to effect recovery. In a stable spin, particularly when the rear seat is occupied, the aircraft may continue rotating for up to three turns after taking recovery action. During this period, the rate of rotation increases and the angle steepens before the spin stops. If the aircraft is slow to recover from the spin, the application of aileron in the direction of the roll assists normal recovery action.'

I have done lots of 8 turn spins (8 being the limit in RAF service) and never really noticed a tendancy for the spin to go flat and never had to use the delayed recovery technique. The book is correct though, when it says that delay is increased after 8 turns.

And as for the C of G, the limits are 6.48" forward to .257" aft of the datum. How do you measure that? Don't know, but suffice to say that we never checked the C of G on a daily basis. The limits were so broad there was never a problem with any combination of fat or thin crews. There was a difference in handling with different crews though. I have been known to enjoy a pint or two in my time and when I was flying the Chippy as an instructor, I weighed 95kg. One of my students could have done with a good meal and weighed no more than 50kg. This didn't affect the handling to any unacceptable degree, but the Chippy cetainly spun well with us on board!

The spin entry technique we used in the RAF was done from 50knts. At 50, full rudder was applied and the control colum was moved fully back. This led to a clean entry with a stable spin resulting. However, if the wing dropped at the fully developed stall and you applied full opposite aileron, the Chippy could enter a slow and flat - but very stable spin from which the recovery took about three turns.

Dan Winterland
22nd Aug 2006, 06:26
And a bit of Chippy trivia while I remember it. The Chippy was designed by a Pole, Wsiewolod Jakimiuk who designed the funny looking PZL fighters that were shot down in vast numbers by the Luftwaffe when the Germans invaded Poland. He escaped to England and redeemed himself by designing the Mosquito, the Chippy's heritage is evident in the shape of the tailfin which is the same shape as the Mosquito's.

The original rudder gave poor spin recovery. So the chord was extended by a couple of inches to add extra area, hence the angled notch at the base of the trailing edge. Also, the RAF added the anti-spin strakes (similar to the Tiger Moth's) extending from the tailplane leading edge. These work by creating a vortex at high angles of attack and energising the airflow over the rudder while in the spin. But they lead to the rudder having a short delay in it's effectiveness, which is why the recommended spin recovery technique is to apply full rudder, then pause (we used 2 seconds) and then move the control column centrally forward until the spin stops.

HappyJack260
22nd Aug 2006, 07:12
I have around 50 hours in Chipmunks, mostly in the Royal Navy's "Britannia Flight" at Plymouth gained during RN service in the early 80's. I also did a few hours a couple of years ago in the Airborne Aviation machine at Camden, SW of Sydney. I now fly a Pitts S-2C and recall that, by comparison, the Chipmunk had fantastic forward visibility. Like everyone else says, the controls are beautifully harmonised, and it's one of the few basic training aircraft I still look forward to flying, even after the Pitts!

Flying Lawyer
22nd Aug 2006, 07:24
We were taught 2 seconds, as per RAF Central Flying School.
I'd forgotten the reason, or perhaps didn't know, until I read Dan's post.

It makes a significant difference to the recovery - but, in the early stages of spin training, two seconds seemed to be a very long time. ;)

BEagle
22nd Aug 2006, 08:34
Indeed, FL!

The Chipmunk and Bulldog have different spin recovery techniques. Which is why I hate hearing people talk about 'standard spin recovery technique'!

Solo spinning was in, then out, then in again, then out again of the solo syllabus when I was at ULAS. But one day I was authorised for solo spinning, so off I went..... All went fine - except no-one had told me about the noise made by the ends of the rear seat belt ends clouting the metal seat pan, even when knotted together in the correct manner! The unexpected banging from the back seat was something of a surprise!

stiknruda
22nd Aug 2006, 09:36
Some years ago on another Pprune Chippie thread I commented on the super control harmonisation; if you don't really understand what that means, then go and fly a Chippie and it will become instantly apparent!

HJ - my Chippie time was an excellent springboard for progresing to the Pitts. A great aeroplane.

Stik

ormus55
22nd Aug 2006, 09:54
ive never flown in a chippy, nor even sat in one, but as a child of the fifties, the chippy holds a very special place in my heart.
every time i see one, all the hairs on my neck stand up!

i often wonder why that is???


(reading these delightful posts, just gives me a nice warm glow).

what a fantastic aeroplane.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
22nd Aug 2006, 10:12
Chippies have that undefinable 'smell' in the cockpit unique to British military aeroplanes of the time. If you could bottle it, you'd make a fortune. :)

SSD

Small Rodent Driver
22nd Aug 2006, 11:04
Chippies have that undefinable 'smell' in the cockpit unique to British military aeroplanes of the time. If you could bottle it, you'd make a fortune. :)
SSD

Hmmmm. Leather, oil, sweat, Cadet Vomit!:\

Chippik
22nd Aug 2006, 13:53
and blood sometimes

waldopepper42
22nd Aug 2006, 14:33
Couldn't resist adding my 2p worth!
With respect to spinning , I once did an aerobatics course at Purdue University. Part of the course included what the instructor called "the big spin".

Climb (eventually) to 9000', enter spin and then try various effects of controls - in and out spin aileron, slightly forward stick, full power(!) to observe the effect, and recover. A total of 11 turns! The recovery took about one and a half turns.

Gipsy Queen
22nd Aug 2006, 17:02
and blood sometimes
I suspect one of the igredients might be Brylcreme. Do you remember the malodorous insdes of the flying club helmets, hanging on pegs along the side of the Nissen hut as you progressed to the CFI's office at the end . . . ? Ugh!

Sadly, it's all gone now.

'India-Mike
22nd Aug 2006, 22:27
Today; Prestwick-Inverness via the Great Glen at 800 feet. Return direct track over the Highlands at 4000 feet. 1hr 40min each way. Idyllic scenery; perfect weather; Chipmunk. An unbeatable combination.

It's not just for spinning and aeros!

Shaggy Sheep Driver
22nd Aug 2006, 22:46
It's not just for spinning and aeros!

Indeed. In fact, I find I have less tendency these days to aerobat the old girl (well OK, maybe the odd - sometimes very odd - loop and roll). The Chippie is a great bimbler as IM says. I love to wander out over Wales from our Liverpool base, over Snowdon if wx allows, then low level around the Lleyn penninisula (but not too low!), Caernarfon for fuel and lunch, then a wander over mid Wales to Shobdon. Back up north over lovely Shropshire (with some aeros, and perhaps a visit to delightful Sherlowe strip), then home.

I don't often have time for that full bimble, which takes most of a day, but often do sub sets of it, or head north along the Lancashire coast past Southport and Blackpool to Morcambe bay and the Lakes.

On a good day, perhaps with canopy open if it's hot, it's fantastic. The aeroplane is very manouverable to examine interesting things (maybe a country house, a pool in the middle of a wood, an interesting boat, or chase a train if you can catch it - some of the modern ones at 125mph take some catching!... ) and it has excellent short field performance for those farm strips.

Can't wait for my next flight!

jabberwok
23rd Aug 2006, 00:47
Indeed. In fact, I find I have less tendency these days to aerobat the old girl (well OK, maybe the odd - sometimes very odd - loop and roll). The Chippie is a great bimbler as IM says. I love to wander out over Wales from our Liverpool base, over Snowdon if wx allows, then low level around the Lleyn penninisula (but not too low!), Caernarfon for fuel and lunch, then a wander over mid Wales to Shobdon. Back up north over lovely Shropshire (with some aeros, and perhaps a visit to delightful Sherlowe strip), then home.
Eeee lad. You're echoing the very route I used to fly many years ago - except it was from Hawarden rather than Liverpool.
http://www.homepages.mcb.net/bones/FS-Images/Scud%20Runner.jpg
Apologies for inserting an FS2004 shot here but I never took any photographs of the aircraft at the time - for which I will eternally kick myself.

A330 Dreamer
23rd Aug 2006, 03:33
overwhelming reply to my thread here!!!

lots to consider.........and to look forward to!

mazzy1026
23rd Aug 2006, 09:12
Jabber - thought I was going mad there - I thought that picture was real :\

After reading this thread, it is obvious that I am stupid for not joining the Liverpool group (if I can) VinceC - help ! :ok:

Shaggy Sheep Driver
23rd Aug 2006, 09:55
Hey jabber, I used to fly G-BARS as well! back in 1979/80 just after we'd got our own SL, she went into the engineers for a long time for lots of remdial work. So a few of us joined the dH club at hawarden to fly RS. Great days!

Mazzy - there's a share or 2 available in SL AFAIK. Phone Liverpool School of Flying - the ad is up on their notice board.

SSD

jabberwok
23rd Aug 2006, 15:56
HFC had two Chipmunks, the other being G-BBRV. No idea what happened to that one. G-BARS is now in Portugese AF colours.

Hawarden had a third Chipmunk that no-one was allowed to fly. It was the first off the UK production line and was only flown by the boss. I think it was G-BAPB.

ormus55
23rd Aug 2006, 16:43
shaggy sheep,
is yours the one, thats often at barton? (im sure ive seen it there?)
if it is, its a fabulous aeroplane.



im bloody useless at remembering registration numbers...

formationfoto
23rd Aug 2006, 21:03
Let us remind ourselves that the Chippy was a basic trainer. The forces sent their nebies out on it. UAS flew them. They are a delight to fly and they are not difficult. I fly one doing formation takes off and landing with three others only feet away and it is EASY.

OK an extra 45 horses would be great, being able to lift the wheels would be an advantage... and what was that about at RG version at Seething?

'India-Mike
23rd Aug 2006, 21:23
formationfoto
Yes it's an easy aeroplane to fly - but I find it's not necessarily an easy aeroplane to fly well...

Shaggy Sheep Driver
23rd Aug 2006, 22:13
I M - spot on.

55 - yes, it was Barton based from when we bought it in 1979 until a couple of years ago. Some of us still regularly return her to her spritual home.:)

Reg is G-BCSL.

jabber - the third chippy was owned by 'Black jake', wasn't it? The whole place was in fear of him (I rmember all those instructions plastered around the club hut - DO THIS..... DON'T DO THAT etc. There was even a written, explicit instruction on how to wrute a cheuqe! What an ar5ole he was!

Still when he'd gone home for tea at 5pm, we mice did play! Flying down the tyaxyways, hopping over hagars - he'd have had a seizure if he'd known.

Maybe we should have told him.:ok:

jabberwok
24th Aug 2006, 00:24
I only met BJ once.

I'd booked the Chipmunk to take her down to White Waltham for a fly-in and had just finished all the planning - including lots of alternate routes around zones because the radio was dicky. That left me behind schedule so I was a little impatient to get off, and wasn't happy when someone walked in and started firing questions at me. My replies were curt - borderline civility but not quite rude - but the lass in the office looked like she was going to have a heart attack.

BJ was unruffled by my poor manners, paused a second and said, "You should have asked me about this as I would have let you take the Tiger Moth." Only then did I know who it was and I locked up completely - which he intrepreted as disappointment at not getting the Tiger (which was also true). I mumbled something and made a fast exit..

I remember the cheque instruction..

Gipsy Queen
24th Aug 2006, 03:29
OK an extra 45 horses would be great, being able to lift the wheels would be an advantage... and what was that about at RG version at Seething?
A few extra horses would have made a very considerable difference.

At one time, I wondered if I might be able to get a Blackburn Bombadier into the space then occupied by the Mk10. 180hp for only a small weight penalty was a very attractive proposition but the engine (35 years ago - things may have changed since), was restricted to military use and the bureaucrats made it clear very early on that they were not on my side. :=

formationfoto
24th Aug 2006, 08:41
formationfoto
Yes it's an easy aeroplane to fly - but I find it's not necessarily an easy aeroplane to fly well...

Of course but then most good aeroplanes are. There is a mystique built up around a number of aircraft and this is one of them. You HAVE to fly it to get the best out of it but if I can fly it well anyone can. On most of my landings you dont know when the aircraft has touched down. Hitting my wake in a 360 tight turn is easy. Hardly ever had to 'go round' from not getting it right. Never ground looped. Need I go on?.

The Chipmunk flies well. A poor pilot will make a mess of it but you dont need to be superhuman.

With four in v. close formation doing a display low level with high bank angles and sporty manouvring you have to fly quite well to avoid hitting the ground or your colleagues. The Chipmunk takes the random inputs of this average pilot and converts them into precise positioning (OK maybe I have a bit more of an influence than that).

If you are thinking of flying one dont be put off by believing that you have to be an ace to fly it reasonably well - you dont. Greater ability will always extract a better result but I cant comment on that until my ability is up there with that of IM :-)

Shaggy Sheep Driver
24th Aug 2006, 10:10
Well I've been flying it for getting on for 3 decades and still a far better aeroplane than I am a pilot.:O

FF is correct as is IM; as I said in an earlier post, it's an easy aeroplane to fly, difficult to fly well. Ab initios in HM forces soloed it in only a few hours.

SSD

formationfoto
24th Aug 2006, 10:16
SSD would you say it is any more difficult to fly WELL than any of the other precise aircraft you have flown?.

I think the same goes for the YAK 52, the Pitts S2, etc......

Maybe with a soggy C172 or PA28 the benefit of an excellent pilot is not as noticeable but most good handling aircraft benefit from a good handler dont they?. The chippy isnt unique in this respect is it?.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
24th Aug 2006, 13:29
ff - I haven't flown a Pitts. I don't think the Yak 52, with its 360hp radial engine, VP prop, retractable u/c, cowl flaps (which you have to use!), non-ergonomic cockpit, and considerable power is a particularly easy aeroplane to fly for a new pilot, unlike the much simpler and lower powered Chippy - except in one area - the landing.

The Yak almost lands itself, and you really don't need to be very skilled to do it. The Chippy demands correct technique and rewards the more skillful pilot in the landing phase, without threatening to kill or injure the less skilled pilot.

HappyJack260
25th Aug 2006, 00:50
The big difference between a Chipmunk and a Yak in the landing phase is that the Chipmunk is a conventional gear (ie taildragger) and the Yak is not. Most civilian pilots trained in the last 30 years have started on tri-gear and consequently find it harder to convert on tailwheel (I know I did!). There's no real mystique about landing a taildragger, but it does require focus and even after many hours and many landings you still need to concentrate. The tendency to swap ends, the need to avoid having any drift on, the reduced forward visibility, the need to get the speed just right - all are factors that affect avery landing. Whereas a moderately experienced pilot could probably land a spamcan in his sleep.

I've only once flown a Yak-52 and I didn't do the landing, but it struck me that it felt very much like a bigger Chipmunk in the air - similar control weightings and cockpit feel (though rather more knobs and buttons). I didn't like the springs they put in the Yak's controls, but understood they could be taken out. And of course, both aircraft were for years the primary trainers for their respective military operators.

The big difference between a Cessna 152 or similar and those other types, is that the military wanted to be able to weed the less skilful pilots out by adding to their workload and seeing how they handled things, whereas the average civilian flying school wants to keep pilots in the training system and earning them money. So after a while, when we civilian pilots want a bit more of a challenge than flying our spamcan to the nearest airfield for a hamburger, we're more likely to find it in a Pitts, a Chipmunk or a Yak-52 than we are in upgrading from a Cessna 152 to a 172 or 182. And the other common factor those non-Cessna types have?

They're all capable of aerobatics - which is immense fun and makes a real contribution to improving pilot skills...

Dan Winterland
25th Aug 2006, 05:02
The big difference between a Cessna 152 or similar and those other types, is that the military wanted to be able to weed the less skilful pilots out by adding to their workload and seeing how they handled things, whereas the average civilian flying school wants to keep pilots in the training system and earning them money.


Which is why the RAF continued to use the Chippy as an elementary trainer up until 1993. The Elementary Flying Training School was (re)formed out of the Flying Selection Squadron who used the Chippy for flying grading. The EFTS syllabus still had an element of selection.

Shaggy Sheep Driver
25th Aug 2006, 10:40
I've only once flown a Yak-52 and I didn't do the landing, but it struck me that it felt very much like a bigger Chipmunk in the air - similar control weightings and cockpit feel (though rather more knobs and buttons). I didn't like the springs they put in the Yak's controls, but understood they could be taken out. And of course, both aircraft were for years the primary trainers for their respective military operators.

The Yak has a far more immediate control response with more powerful controls (roll rate much faster than a Chippy, for instance, and will bang your head on the canopy sides as it starts and stops!). No springs in our Yak's control runs! For aeros, it's in a different league (much, much more engine power, VP prop, inverted systems, powerful controls, aerobatically unlimited - cleared for anything in the Aresti catalogue). However, in my opinion it lacks the Chippy's superb control harmonisation.

SSD


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