PDA

View Full Version : Islams and our problems summed up


haughtney1
13th Aug 2006, 22:52
An interesting perspective (http://www.smh.com.au/news/paul-sheehan/ideals-become-casualties-of-war/2006/08/13/1155407666922.html)

G-CPTN
13th Aug 2006, 23:23
Does one classify Jews as Christians?

rab-k
13th Aug 2006, 23:54
All I can say is, thank God I'm an Atheist :hmm:

Grandpa
14th Aug 2006, 05:50
Here most of our local retailers are Arabs, who sell anything including wines, beer, spirit, sausages, ham,................

Hard to find if they follow any religious precepts, women wair scaves or not, children go to same schools as the rest of population.

Islam has got many different faces, as any religion, depending on the kind of people practising.

Generalisation is the beginning of racism.................

StarWinder
14th Aug 2006, 09:12
Generalisations always cause problems. In UAE, a clearly Islamic area, you can find all shades of tolerance and intolerance. For instance, there is no problem finding pork in Dubai, but don't even ask for it in neighbouring Sharjah, where there is also no booze. Yet immediately across the (practically invisible) border with Ajman, the first structure is a pub....

However, in my view, the question all Muslims who migrate to the West and demand all sorts of tolerance must answer is: how many churches are there in Saudi Arabia, which has a sizeable Christian population. You cannot demand total tolerance and have the "guardians" of your own religion exercise intolerance at its extreme.

eastern wiseguy
14th Aug 2006, 09:34
Here's an interesting video that was sent to me...very difficult to disagree with this lady!!

http://switch3.castup.net/cunet/gm.asp?ai=214&ar=1050wmv&ak=null

slim_slag
14th Aug 2006, 09:43
Generalisation is the beginning of racism.................I realise you said 'beginning of'. However you cannot choose your race, so it would be totally unreasonable to discriminate against people who are of a certain race and who you have never met.

You can choose your belief system, so it might well be reasonable to discriminate against all people who have a certain way of thinking, even though you haven't met them all. That would be a legitimate generalisation.

One would give examples but that would only incur the wrath of those people of that persuasion who have blinkered minds, which just happens to be the case for all the examples I can think of. I don't think that is a coincidence.

ORAC
14th Aug 2006, 10:29
You can choose your belief systemThat would depend on where you live. I could name a recent Afghan Christian convert who only escaped the death penalty because of heavy political pressure which gave him the option of permanent exile instead.

The penalty for apostasy in Islam is death, and in several countries is regularily imposed.

slim_slag
14th Aug 2006, 10:38
The penalty for apostasy in Islam is death, and in several countries is regularily imposed.So would you generalise that all muslims are bad?

ORAC
14th Aug 2006, 10:48
I would be interested to see how you come to that conclusion since, based on the statements in your previous post, the logical outcome of my statement is the total opposite.

slim_slag
14th Aug 2006, 10:56
I drew no conclusion. That squiggly thing at the end of my sentence is called a question mark. As your post appeared to be irrelevent to the subject of the thread I was seeking clarification.

ORAC
14th Aug 2006, 11:21
As your post appeared to be irrelevent to the subject of the thread I was seeking clarification. On the contrary, quoting from the link in the original post, it appears totally apposite.

"The open contempt some Muslims have for non-Muslims is a common thread throughout the world where Muslims communities rub against the kafirs, or non-believers."

I was pointing out that the contempt, in some countries, is not limited simply to intimidation, and that, therefore, your assertion that one is able to choose one's religion is incorrect.

slim_slag
14th Aug 2006, 12:06
....therefore, your assertion that one is able to choose one's religion is incorrect.Well, If I had said that you may have a point, but I didn't and you don't. A 'belief system' (what I said) may include religion (what you said), but it doesn't have to. They are not the same thing, if I had mean't to say religion I would have done so.

In fact, the example you chose demonstrates clearly that you cannot force people to believe in things they don't want to. You say people are executed because they don't believe in one thing (a religion called islam), therefore they must believe in another thing (in your example a religion called christianity). Even under the threat of death they choose their own belief system, and not what other's might want them to.

I only post twice and I am misrepresented both times. You must do better if you want this to be a sensible chat.

Choxolate
14th Aug 2006, 12:23
You can choose your belief system, so it might well be reasonable to discriminate against all people who have a certain way of thinking,.
Not only reasonable but a certainty - otherwise what is politics all about? The only thing I would question is discriminate AGAINST, rather than just discriminate.

Discrimination is one of these words that has been highjacked by the politicallty correct thought police to mean some sort of prejudice, whereas in reality it means "To set apart as being different; to mark as different; to separate from another by discerning differences; to distinguish" it does NOT of itself imply regarding as inferiror or superior.

Hence the term racial discrimination has been adopted to mean "regarding another race is inferior" when all it actually means is that you can recognise different groups of humanity based on physical differences that are inherited genetically.

One of the main problems in the argument about Islam is the (deliberate) confusion between race and religion, not agreeing with any religion is NOT racist. Disagreeing with Judaism is not anti-semitism, hating Jews (as a group of genetically related people) is.

slim_slag
14th Aug 2006, 12:30
Indeed choxolate.

Grandpa
14th Aug 2006, 22:03
..................even with an X!

con-pilot
15th Aug 2006, 00:46
..................even with an X!

Just one more thing we have in common despite our many differences.:ok:

Re-entry
15th Aug 2006, 05:57
Hi slim. I disagree with your assertion that one can choose one's belief system. Most people in the world don't have the benefit of an open-minded western style education, as you have obviously benefitted from. I personally witnessed an arab man beating the crap out of his black sheet covered wife in a public street in dubai. Do you think she can choose her 'belief system' ?
No way. This is how most people in the world live, their 'beliefs' imposed and coerced on them .

Choxolate
15th Aug 2006, 07:21
Hi slim. I disagree with your assertion that one can choose one's belief system. Most people in the world don't have the benefit of an open-minded western style education, as you have obviously benefitted from. I personally witnessed an arab man beating the crap out of his black sheet covered wife in a public street in dubai. Do you think she can choose her 'belief system' ?
No way. This is how most people in the world live, their 'beliefs' imposed and coerced on them .
Patronising bulldust - a "western style education" is not a requirement to be able to think. Where do you think most of modern mathematics came from (including our numbering system)? Islam.

I agree you cannot choose what others impose on you because of the culture you live in but everybody can choose whether they believe it or not. Not necessarily easy and not necessarily without personal cost but the choice is inside your head, whether you act on your personal beliefs or not depends on the personal cost of doing so.

In the words of Bertrand Russell - "I would never die for my beliefs because I might be wrong"

woolyalan
15th Aug 2006, 07:35
I agree with chox and slim, its not perticularly easy to be told to believe something, in fact a lot of people if forced to believe something through violence it strengthens what other beliefs they have.
For example, If you were stuck in a room with a bloke built like a brick s**thouse, he's beating you senseless with a stick saying that you WILL believe in scientology :}, you may start to say yea you do to stop the beating, but your still thinking that you believe in god, allah buddha or whatever.

On a lighter note:
Where do you think most of modern mathematics came from (including our numbering system)? Islam.

Really? I thought it was a load of old guys in toga's from ancient greece... well, most mathematics anyways.

ORAC
15th Aug 2006, 07:40
Where do you think most of modern mathematics came from (including our numbering system)?

The western numeral system and algebra were invented in India around 1500-900BC. Do a search on vedic mathematics. They spread to the Middle East then on to Europe.

Geometry and what we know as Euclidean mathematics came from Greece.

Cheerio
15th Aug 2006, 07:42
An old adage in business is that 'you are only as good as your last f*** up'
So putting the pre common era glories aside, what have they brought to the table in, say the last 500 years? Does belief put a man on the moon?

woolyalan
15th Aug 2006, 07:47
At the end of it all, belief is what enables us to do anything.

People believe they can do things, ie, NASA believed they could put man on the moon, and allegedly they succeeded, even though others said they wouldn't.

Or were you saying what has islam done for us in the last 500 years?

tony draper
15th Aug 2006, 07:58
As the Jesuits used to say,"Give me the child and I will give you the man" somebody mindfecked in chilhood is mindfecked for life.
:cool:

Grandpa
15th Aug 2006, 08:21
What you told about Indian math is true (they invented "zero"....) but you can also lie with the untold...........

Remember the etymology of "Algebra", "Algorythm".........?

The truth is science is an international matter where exchanges are the base for progress, and the Arab could build upon Greek and Indian math when Europe was stuck in dark age.

tony draper
15th Aug 2006, 08:28
True Grandpa,they were headed for the top table all right, then someone wandered in from the desert with a new book of instructions for them,and that all she wrote,sit on yer arse for the next 900 years chaps.
Something similar happened to us,but old Henry and his ginger headed daughter,started the ball rolling and we kicked the instruction manual into touch,which is where all instruction manuals belong, thus we progressed.
:rolleyes:

AIRWAY
15th Aug 2006, 10:48
Now they are demanding "special bank holidays"... :hmm:

(According to a British paper)

barit1
15th Aug 2006, 12:05
"Arabic numerals" Per Wikipedia:

The numbers were developed in India by the Hindus around 400 BCE. However, because it was Arabs who relayed this system to the West after the Hindu numerical system found its way to Baghdad, the numeral system became mis-identified as "Arabic" in the eyes of the Europeans. Arabs themselves call the Eastern Arabic numerals "Indian numerals," أرقام هندية, (arqam hindiyyah) and use a different set of Arabic symbols as numerals.


Vehicle number plates in Arab territory commonly use Arabic symbols, which bear little resemblance to European, although they are decimal in nature.

Grandpa
15th Aug 2006, 15:44
Arab mathematician were at work also after Muhammad met God.

Decimal numbers travelled a lot from India to Europe.

Original Indian cvharacters are far from ours too.
A funny detail: there was no typing upon these times and there was a class of writers, those in India and those on the way to Arabia didn't use same tools. At a moment writers didn't use their "writing papers" turned in same direction: another reason for differences met between first ones and arab, then european.............

Choxolate
15th Aug 2006, 16:02
OK OK I accpet that the numbering system pre-dates Islam, however it certainly also pre-dates "western style education".

The main thrust of the argument I was making is that we so called "civilsed" westerners are not the only free thinkers by any stretch of the imagination, and it is certainly nothing to do with our education system. Some states in the "land of the free" are even considering "creationsim" as part of an acceptable syllabus, so it is not just some Muslims who live in the middle ages.

GANNET FAN
15th Aug 2006, 16:10
I had resisted posting this supposedly genuine but radical piece for some time but in view of this thread I would be interested to hear the reaction from others, especially from Oz. I believe it very unlikely it came from Howard.
***

This was a very interesting joint speech by Howard and Costello made some time this week. An interesting platform for Costello to stand on.

Three Cheers For Australia

Muslims who want to live under Islamic Sharia law were told on Wednesday to get out of Australia, as the government targeted radicals in a bid to head off potential terror attacks.

A day after a group of mainstream Muslim leaders pledged loyalty to
Australia at a special meeting with Prime Minister John Howard, he and his
ministers made it clear that extremists would face a crackdown.

Treasurer Peter Costello, seen as heir apparent to Howard, hinted that some radical clerics could be asked to leave the country if they did not accept that Australia was a secular state and its laws were made by parliament.

"If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law
or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on national
television.

"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws
governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the
Islamic law, that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law,
independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the
opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then,
that's a better option," Costello said.

Asked whether he meant radical clerics would be forced to leave, he said
those with dual citizenship could possibly be asked to move to the other
country.

Education Minister Brendan Nelson later told reporters that Muslims who did not want to accept local values should "clear off".

"Basically, people who don't want to be Australians, and they don't want to live by Australian values and understand them, well then they can basically clear off," he said. Separately, Howard angered some Australian Muslims on Wednesday by saying he supported spy agencies monitoring the nation's mosques.

AMERICAand Canada..... ARE YOU LISTENING?

Quote:

IMMIGRANTS, NOT AUSTRALIANS, MUST ADAPT. Take It Or Leave It I am tired of this nation worrying about whether we are offending some individual or their culture. Since the terrorist attacks on Bali, we have experienced a surge in patriotism by the majority of Australians.

However, the dust from the attacks had barely settled when the "politically correct" crowd began complaining about the possibility that our patriotism was offending others. I am not against immigration, nor do I hold a grudge against anyone who is seeking a better life by coming to Australia.

However, there are a few things that those who have recently come to our country, and apparently some born here, need to understand.

This idea of Australia being a multicultural community has served only to
dilute our sovereignty and our national identity. As Australians, we have
our own culture, our own society, our own language and our own lifestyle.
This culture has been developed over two centuries of struggles, trials and victories by millions of men and women who have sought freedom.

We speak mainly ENGLISH, not Spanish, Lebanese, Arabic, Chinese, Japanese, Russian, or any other language. Therefore, if you wish to become part of our society, Learn the language!

Most Australians believe in God. This is not some Christian, right wing,
political push but a fact because Christian men and women, on Christian
principles, founded this nation, and this is clearly documented. It is
certainly appropriate to display it on the walls of our schools. If God
offends you, then I suggest you consider another part of the world as your new home, Because God is part of our culture.

We will accept your beliefs and will not question why, all we ask is that
you accept ours and live in harmony and peaceful enjoyment with us.

If the Southern Cross offends you, or you don't like " A Fair Go", then you
should seriously consider a move to another part of this planet.

We are happy with our culture and have no desire to change, and we really don't care how you did things where you came from. By all means keep your culture but do not force it on others.

This is OUR COUNTRY, OUR LAND, and OUR LIFESTYLE, and we will allow you Every opportunity to enjoy all this.

But once you are done complaining, whining, and griping about Our Flag,
Our Pledge, Our Christian beliefs, or Our Way of Life, I highly encourage
you take advantage of one other great Australian freedom, "THE RIGHT TO
LEAVE".

If you aren't happy here then LEAVE. We didn't force you to come here. You asked to be here. So accept the country YOU accepted.Pretty easy really, when you think about it. I figure if we all keep passing this to our
friends (and enemies) it will also, sooner or later get backto the
complainers, lets all try, please.

Doors to Automatic
15th Aug 2006, 16:41
What a great speech - we need more of this sort of thing in the UK rather than bending over backwards to tolerate those who are themselves blatantly intolerant! :D

chiglet
15th Aug 2006, 17:15
Yeah, BUT.....
"At this moment in time", we have two chances......SLIM and NONE :ugh: :ugh:
watp,iktch

G-CPTN
15th Aug 2006, 19:02
The decimal counting system is wrong. Just because we have ten digits has produced untold problems. π (pi) is now indeterminate, whereas being a basic parameter it should be an integer. If the 'base' was correct (instead of being ten) life would be SO much easier.

chiglet
15th Aug 2006, 19:06
G-CPTN
Do you mean PI [non-edible] :E
watp,iktch

Grandpa
15th Aug 2006, 19:10
Do yo suggest we turn our fingers into a round hole?

Or maybe use another part of our anatomy to count?
A number of us would become math teachers!

G-CPTN
15th Aug 2006, 19:12
MENTAL arithmetic!

Some of those numbers are orgasmical . . .

Re-entry
15th Aug 2006, 19:18
Well since you brought it up.
Review ' The story of mathematics'. By Richard Mankiewicz.
I wrote it.

BlooMoo
15th Aug 2006, 19:49
The decimal counting system is wrong. Just because we have ten digits has produced untold problems. π (pi) is now indeterminate, whereas being a basic parameter it should be an integer. If the 'base' was correct (instead of being ten) life would be SO much easier.

:ugh: :rolleyes: :ugh: :rolleyes: :ugh: :rolleyes: :ugh: :rolleyes:

G-CPTN
15th Aug 2006, 20:09
:ugh: :rolleyes: :ugh: :rolleyes: :ugh: :rolleyes: :ugh: :rolleyes:
Just because you've become accustomed to using ten as your 'base', you've learned to manipulate quantities accordingly. I've worked with people who were unable to understand the concept of 'ten' of anything. Say that you could only count up to five (after all you only have five fingers on one hand and you need the finger from the other hand to check-off your counting. Once you reach five you then set a marker (such as folding ONE finger) to show that you have reached your limit. Using just one hand (and a pointer) you can count to (what WE call 25) with each finger (and the thumb) folded over. OR, of course you could use a base of TWO, in which case you've 'invented' the binary system (which even inanimate machines can manage). Then there's hexadecimal (also used in computers) where the base is twelve. Remember Pounds Shillings and PENCE with twelve pennies in a shilling?

matt_hooks
15th Aug 2006, 20:15
Now they are demanding "special bank holidays"... :hmm:
(According to a British paper)

FULL LINK TO DAILY MAIL ARTICLE HERE (http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=400605&in_page_id=1770&ct=5)

Now that I'm all for! My only concern is that, as they benefit from the usual (I.E. mainly christian) bank holidays in this country, we should all benefit from their bank holidays!

The same newspaper also claimed they were asking that they be allowed to conduct marriages etc. according to Sharia law.

This, imho, is a fantastically BAD idea! How, in a modern(ish) country, can one group of people be judged by different laws to another person? Would people of other faiths be allowed to choose to be judged under Sharia law?

To be fair, these demands have been made by what can best be described as a very small minority within a minority, so I refuse to judge all Muslims according to it. The MCGB, who I respect a lot, seem to have it about right!

G-CPTN
15th Aug 2006, 20:19
Do Muslims HAVE banks?

a third of British Muslims would rather live under Sharia law,
I wonder where they could find a country in which Sharia Law pertains?

matt_hooks
15th Aug 2006, 20:22
Erm...

I seem to remember that banking also started in the middle east!

Could be wrong tho!

I know that according to some of the more...ahem...radical clerics insurance is a form of gambling and therefore illegal under Islam, but as far as I know they have no law against the legalised extortion that is banking!

G-CPTN
15th Aug 2006, 20:26
Islamic law prohibits usury, the collection and payment of interest,
Islamic law also prohibits trading in financial risk (which is seen as a form of gambling). In addition, Islamic law prohibits investing in businesses that are considered haram (anything that is unlawful or forbidden according to the Qur'an.).

matt_hooks
15th Aug 2006, 20:30
Islamic law prohibits usury, the collection and payment of interest,
Islamic law also prohibits trading in financial risk (which is seen as a form of gambling). In addition, Islamic law prohibits investing in businesses that are considered haram (anything that is unlawful or forbidden according to the Qur'an.).

I stand corrected!

Re-entry
15th Aug 2006, 20:45
So does islamic law prohibit blowing everyone to pieces?

matt_hooks
15th Aug 2006, 20:56
So does islamic law prohibit blowing everyone to pieces?

Ah, as in many things, it depends who you ask!

I'm sure I could (mis)quote bits of the bible to give the impression that God wants Christians to to out and blow people up, in fact Northern Ireland is a prime example! If you look hard enough there is plenty of material that could be made to suggest such a thing!

Re-entry
15th Aug 2006, 21:04
But the Irish had a point. The head-bangers don't. They just want to kill us. And themselves in the process( that's the only good thing about it).

G-CPTN
15th Aug 2006, 21:06
What does the qur'an say about spreading the word to infidels (by force if necessary)?
http://www.wvinter.net/~haught/Koran.html

Quod erat demonstratum (oops, sorry, wrong thread!).

matt_hooks
15th Aug 2006, 21:07
Once again I'm afraid Christianity is not entirely innocent on that count!

Can we say Crusades???

G-CPTN
15th Aug 2006, 21:11
You're NOT suggesting the GWB is on some sort of CRUSADE?
The fact that his Dad has his @rse kicked by Saddam . . . (who happened not to be a Christian).

Re-entry
15th Aug 2006, 21:29
Feb 15, 1971.
I remember it well.
Also the Irish punt . It was effectively pegged to the pound. Same day.

haughtney1
15th Aug 2006, 21:32
Can we say Crusades???
As has been stated elsewhere.......and if you do a bit of historical research you will find it as well....

The crusades were a political enterprise..the fact that religion (christianity)was thrown into the mix had everything to do with the political classes at the time not being able to recruit enough personnel to do the job, so they did what was expedient at the time..they manipulated fear and mistrust into what was called the crusades..all to meet their political needs, not to serve a religious desire or "crusade".
Sounds a bit like modern day Jihadism to me......

Im constantly amazed when the crusades are rolled out as a reason for this and that....the history doesnt support it...all you need is to read a book to see it. (and for those who would say "aha! but history is written by the victors!"...well my reference material comes from jewish, Islamic, and Christian sources:ok: )

Davaar
15th Aug 2006, 21:44
Can we say Crusades???

We can say, of course.
Can we ask:

When was the Battle of Tours?
Who won?
Against whom?
When was the First Crusade?
Why was the First Crusade engaged on?

matt_hooks
15th Aug 2006, 22:05
I'm afraid the analogy holds.

The crusades represented the manipulation of a religious belief system to recruit for, and justify, a "war" against "the infidel"

Now, what better description can you think of for what is occuring at the moment?

I am not suggesting that what is happening bears close scrutiny to the crusades, but in general I think you cannot deny that the argument is sound!

Re-entry
15th Aug 2006, 22:10
G-CPTN.
PI always was and remains a transcedental number. It could never be used as a base . Read my book.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
15th Aug 2006, 22:26
Im constantly amazed when the crusades are rolled out as a reason for this and that....ok, strike the crusades and let's go with the inquisition instead

PI always was and remains a transcedental number. It could never be used as a baseI don't see why you couldn't make pi a base, just that if you did, then one would become the trancendental number. It's all relative as my uncle used to say.

haughtney1
15th Aug 2006, 22:52
ok, strike the crusades and let's go with the inquisition instead

I'm not here defending any religion, race or creed. However to get to grips with this the present situation...we need to cut through all the spin, propaganda, vested interests, and prejudice (on both sides!) to allow a reasoned an informed debate.

Without doing this..whats the point?

matt_hooks
15th Aug 2006, 22:55
I entirely agree Haughtney!

The point I was making is that it's not the first time that a major religion has been used as a smoke screen to hide the real intention of a military campaign!

I think Dubbya is probably doing rather well with his friends in the arms industry, and oh yes, there's rather a lot of oil over there!

Davaar
15th Aug 2006, 23:34
I entirely agree Haughtney!
it's not the first time that a major religion has been used as a smoke screen to hide the real intention of a military campaign!
!

And, as here at present, that a military campaign has been used to hide the real intention of an implacable religion.

ORAC
16th Aug 2006, 07:16
Islamic law prohibits usury, the collection and payment of interest If you go back a few hundred years Christianity closely resembled modern Islam in much of its behaviour and precepts - including the banning of usury and the charging of interest. They got around this in a pragmatic manner - they allowed Jewish immigration and then let them run a banking/loan industry - hence the origins of the image of the Jewish money lender.

History of the Jews in England (http://www.reference.com/browse/wiki/History_of_the_Jews_in_England)

Choxolate
16th Aug 2006, 08:03
The decimal counting system is wrong. Just because we have ten digits has produced untold problems. π (pi) is now indeterminate, whereas being a basic parameter it should be an integer. If the 'base' was correct (instead of being ten) life would be SO much easier.
Sorry but totally wrong - PI is not "indeterminate" in the decimal system alone it is a "transcendental" number that is indeterminate in ANY system (from binary right through to hexadecimal and beyond). It's indeterminacy is a function of PI not the numbering system used.
To base any numbering system on a transcendental number is absolute madness - example how much would you get if asked for 2PI litres of petrol?
The decimal system is not "wrong" it is a convention that is easily understood and works well - more logically maybe we should have used duodecimal (12 based) as it has more primary divisors (1,2,3,4,6) compared with just three in decimal (1,2,5). A bit late now though to change.
The classic geometry problem of squaring the circle" cannot be done because of the indeterminacy of PI (as pure geometry does not use any numbering system)

Blacksheep
16th Aug 2006, 09:48
What does the qur'an say about spreading the word to infidels (by force if necessary)?
Actually it says "There is no compulsion in religion" but that is rarely mentioned these days.

Perhaps G-CPTN has unearthed the infamous "Satanic Verses"? - those which can be used to lead followers towards evil?

In any case, these are the verses used in places such as Finsbury Park by the likes of Cap'n Hook and the Jihadis, in their quasi-religious political brain-washing processes. It is no coincidence that so many "Jihadis" are recruited among disaffected youths who were previously non-practicing muslims or in some cases (Richard Reid for example) recent converts.

In studying Quran it is necessary to consider the context in which each verse was revealed in order to uncover the meaning. Within the particular division between early Meccan verses and post Hijrah (i.e. the flight to Medina) verses, the sub-division covering the period from when armed combat (fighting back) was first established and the fall of Mecca is important, as are those regarding the plotting by the Jews and Christians of Medina. It must be always be borne in mind that in the early days of the persecution of Muslims it was the Ethiopian Christians who provided safe haven. In particular, any mention of "hypocrites" is specific to those citizens of Medina who had publicly embraced Islam but who remained allied to the Meccans and secretly opposed to the Ummah, while mention of Jews is generally directed towards the Jews of Medina who plotted to expel the Ummah from the city.

There are other verses, mostly revealed after the conquest of Mecca by the numerically inferior muslim army, which contradict the verses mentioned. During the early Caliphates, Christians and Jews lived untroubled under Islamic rule and were freely permitted to practice their faith.

Then came The Crusades, a pseudo-religious struggle for political control over Jerusalem and the huge revenues to be derived from pilgrims - with predictable results for inter faith relationships

mary_hinge
16th Aug 2006, 12:00
Now they are demanding "special bank holidays"... :hmm:
(According to a British paper)
So as not to offend any group, then we should celebrate all holidays and festivals, unfortunately it does not leave many days for work. For example, today is Independence Day in Gabon and Restoration Day in the Dominican Republic.
All others are contained here http://www.earthcalendar.net/index.php

G-CPTN
16th Aug 2006, 13:37
Long ago, a work colleague pointed out that there were but 200 working days in any year. (The figure is approximate, but within an order of magnitude, correct.)

Blacksheep
16th Aug 2006, 13:59
We used to get 18 public holidays but they got rid of Easter, Whitsun the Queen's Birthday etc. after independence and cut it down to a scant dozen. Judging by the e-mails from our Bangkok office the Thais must have the most public holidays of any nation. They don't take the start of Ramadan off though, nor Eid ul Fitr or Eid ul Adhan...

Spinflight
16th Aug 2006, 18:11
Out of interest is it possible to have a non middle eastern type chappy as an imam? I mean specifically Sunni as in prayer leader rather than Shia, which I seem to remember is different.

G-CPTN
16th Aug 2006, 18:17
I think they call such a chap a bingo-caller.

AcroChik
16th Aug 2006, 18:30
Islamic law prohibits usury, the collection and payment of interest, Islamic law also prohibits trading in financial risk (which is seen as a form of gambling). In addition, Islamic law prohibits investing in businesses that are considered haram (anything that is unlawful or forbidden according to the Qur'an.).

This is a fantastically complex subject about which I know practically nothing. A CFA Institute seminar I attended touched briefly on the topic, describing some key differences in banking and trading regulations. Some of the largest investors in European and US financial markets are members of the Saudi royal family and its entourage (one of them owns 4% of AOL/Time Warner shares through a holding company, and over 8% of CitiBank through the same vehicle).

Here's a link to a site that deals with "Western Banks involved in Islamic Finance," and "Islamic Finance in western countries":

http://www.islamicfinance.de/thewest.html

How societies deal with the creation and distribution of wealth is, I imagine, an important lens for peering into a culture.

Using a tool called Pareto Distributon to examine the distribution of wealth in both the US and Saudi Arabia, the resulting curves showing what percent of the population holds what percent of the wealth in the two countries look remarkably similar.

tarbaby
1st Sep 2006, 05:42
Islam also prohibits prostitution: Divorcing wives is easy; this brings into being short term marriages of half an hour.
Just like the eating of pork is prohibited, the Koran says nothing about not eating "the other meat".
Try catching a plane from the Middle East to London before Ramadan . Muslims do not get tested for HIV, only migrant workers. But Muslim "tourist" go to Bangkok, Cambodia, India etc. But there is no HIV or AIDS in Islamic states as they screen their migrant workers.
Islam may have given us Algebra and a numbering system, but this occurred in the Middle Ages. Once it was decided that presentation became more important than the content then Islamic science went downhill.
Justifying modern Islamic terrorism because the Crusades is like justifying IRA activities because of William of Orange. Nonsensical!!

GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU
1st Sep 2006, 11:38
An extract from today's Daily Telegraph, Page 23:

"After early-morning prayers on Aug 25 they came to me with the good news of my son's martyrdom," said Bahadur Ali, 65, a tall well-built
white-bearded Pashtun with a booming voice. The approximate date of
Bahadur's son's death tallies with an attack on the road from the border town of Spin Boldak to Kandahar, when a car drove into a Nato convoy
killing one soldier. "I am proud of my son," he said. "He has done a great job. Had I been his age, I would have spared no time in joining the jihadis who are at war against the infidels." "With his martyrdom my son has enrolled me on the list of those 70 persons to take with him to paradise," said his father, referring to a provision of Islam that states that a martyr can select a score of people to accompany him to Heaven. The story of Bahar's death underscores the deep-rooted and complex nature of the
threat that Nato troops face.erso

I think this as an interesting insight to what we non muslims are up against. As Rab-K said at Serial 3, thank God I'm an Atheist!

nnel, face in Afghanistan.

Rollingthunder
1st Sep 2006, 12:31
"Had I been his age, I would have spared no time in joining the jihadis"

Oh, go on, you're only 65. Might be a good time to strap on a vest yourself. Or do you have more sons or daughters to use up?

Deep rooted perhaps...complex no. Simple minded peasants warped by a manipulative quasi religon in action.

Ozzy
1st Sep 2006, 15:07
"Had I been his age, I would have spared no time in joining the jihadis"Why don't we cater to the needs of these idiots. Set up clinics where they can come, get their overdose in a syringe and go home and take themselves out. Can't negotiate with a religion so let's help arrange their meeting with Allah.

Ozzy

Cheerio
1st Sep 2006, 15:13
Didn't Donald Rumsfeld say something at a press briefing along the lines of: 'If they wish to become martyrs, they can be accommodated' :D

El Grifo
1st Sep 2006, 17:24
Justifying modern Islamic terrorism because the Crusades is like justifying IRA activities because of William of Orange. Nonsensical!!

Spot on Tarbaby, this is a point that has to be hammered home.

tony draper
1st Sep 2006, 18:06
Well those buggas started it, they invaded Europe in 711 and held sway in Spain until they were hoofed out 200 years later,by Charlton Heston, the Crusades were just pay back.
:E

El Grifo
1st Sep 2006, 18:21
Hey drapsey yer freakin me oot. This is what I received as notification of your post. Spot the SCARY difference. Woooooohoooooo !!!!


This thread is located at:
http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=238913&goto=newpost

Here is the message that has just been posted:
***************
Well those buggas started it, they invaded Europe in 911 and held sway in Spain until they were hoofed out 200 years later,by Charlton Heston, the Crusades were just pay back.
:E
***************

tony draper
1st Sep 2006, 18:41
One mixed up the Friends of the Prophets arrival and hoofing out date Mr G, so one corrected before some smart arse prooner pointed out one's error,yer can't allow anybody a inch on proon, they miss nowt.
:uhoh:

El Grifo
2nd Sep 2006, 10:49
Calm yer jets ya grumpy geordie, it was the resonant figures that caught my eye.
You know - - - The modern day number of the beast, the screwy American syntax, the ninth month of the, eh eleventh day.


It almost had me running for my unthumbed copy of "Nostradamus for beginners".

Geddit ?

CAT1
2nd Sep 2006, 13:04
To understand why a young man would become a suicide bomber, a basic misconception about their motivation needs to be addressed. The problem of terrorism facing the western world is not from Islamic "extremists", but from Islamic "literalists". The people who flew planes into the WTC, the London suicide bombers, were not acting under any misguided interpretation of the Koran: they were taking it literally. Since Muslims believe that their holy book is the unadulterated word of God as revealed to the world through the prophet Mohammed, and this book openly advocates the killing of Jews and other "infidels", with the eventual aim of establishing Islam worldwide, they were fulfilling what they saw as a religious obligation. Before anyone accuses me of "religionism", I would ask: how many of you have read the Koran cover to cover? Read it and make up your own minds. The Koran is not alone among religious books in condoning violence: the Old Testament is full of exhortations to kill people just because they believe something else. History is littered with the debris of religious intolerance. The followers of the three monotheistic religions all believe that theirs is the only true way. By implication, everyone else is inferior. This is, basically,fascism.

Human advancements in technology, social welfare and science came about in spite of religion, not because of it, which is why religion has lost it's power in the western world. It is no coincidence violence is erupting among a faith whose people have played no part in modern technological advancements.

Unfortunately, religion is somehow beyond criticism. As an atheist, I find it bizarre that I can criticise someone's political ideals, but their religion, a set of beliefs based on nothing except ancient books and faith, is beyond reproach. Blasphemy laws are a form of censorship, loading the dice in favour of those who claim that their faith gives them the right to incite violence.The current vogue of blaming everything on "extremism" bears remarkable similarities to the policy of appeasement in the 1930's. Look where that ended. It's time to wake up and realise that the problem is not religious extremism, it is religion itself. More specifically, it is Islam that presents the greatest threat to the world in the 21st century.

StarWinder
2nd Sep 2006, 13:10
Nowhere does it say in the Holy Quran that Muslims must not drink alcohol. The fact is that Muslims must not intoxicate themselves (and this is essentially a common-sense principle), whether through drink or drugs. (Notwithstanding the latter, the largest opium producer in the world is, ironically, holier-than-thou Taleban-controlled area of Afghanistan....).

As with Christianity, it is not the religion itself, but the way it is interpreted and hi-jacked by clerics that causes problems. You go to Turkey, Egypt, Lebanon, Indonesia, Dubai and there is no shortage of beer, wine and spirits.

Even in Pakistan, there are breweries and distilleries (not bootleggers, but properly registered outfits).

I posted the article below on another thread pertaining to a PIA pilot being over the limit in Oslo, and was subsequently banned (obviously the truth about a society - even when the messenger is a native of that country - is not considered sufficiently politically correct on Pprune).

This item from DAWN newspaper (page 7) - the leading English language broadsheet in Pakistan - published in Karachi on 23rd August 2006:
(by Hafizur Rahman)

(…) In Pakistan, whatever our views on the subject, we never talk about drinking in any gathering which can even remotely be described as public. It’s like the unmentionable VD or AIDS. That is why when the late Z. A. Bhutto referred in a public speech to his habit of taking a drink or two when he felt our of sorts, the admission was condemned by the opposition in strong terms and the drubbing he received was long and intense. He made the political mistake of speaking the truth about what he considered to be a peccadillo and a personal matter.

This was just before the March 1977 elections. Later, Mr. Bhutto imposed a total ban on drinking in order to gain a point at the polls. That ban, it is said, cost him the votes of many Muslims who were addicted to alcohol at that time. That may or may not be true, but I still remember that the mammoth gathering in Lahore’s Nasser Bagh appeared to appreciate his truthfulness.

His remark “I drink a little whisky but I don’t drink the blood of the poor as the exploiters do” was greeted with a great roar.

It is surprising that no national newspaper has ever made a study of the drinking habits among Muslims of Pakistan. I do not say the habit is widespread but it is not insignificant either. Very frequently, if not every day, there is an item in the press announcing “a huge liquor haul” and telling how hundreds of bottles of foreign whisky have been captured. However, we are never told where all the seized contraband stuff goes, because we never read about its destruction. I suppose if a close watch was kept, some officials of the customs and excise and the policemen responsible for this haul might be seen tottering on their feet the next day.

Jokes aside, one of the national dailies should do an in-depth story on the whole business. Where does all the liquor come from apart from that manufactured locally by the Bhandaras and the Markers and the Avaris? Who are the main consumers? What is the economics of this social phenomenon? Also, how does it affect the relations between Muslims and Christians, whether the phenomenon has any impact for society at the lower middle class level? And what is the relevance of a certain faith to the drinking habit, and, of course, in the case of Islamabad-Rawalpindi twin city, what is the contribution of the foreign embassies in meeting the market demand? Or do the newspapers think that the subject is a taboo?

We, Pakistanis, have an ambivalent attitude toward the consumption of alcohol. For example, I won’t hazard a guess as to how many members of the National Assembly are addicted to drinking, but some years ago, a newspaper did report that 60 % of the last dismissed assembly could be said to have been regular consumers. But if someone were to move a resolution today that anyone found drinking should be hung upside down for 24 hours (or something of the sort) it is certain the resolution would be passed unanimously. In English they call this hypocrisy. (…)

The other issue is, of course, tolerance. Imagine if some Western weirdos were to kidnap two journalists who happened to be Muslims and forcibly had them convert to Christianity. Londonistan would be completely ransacked by angry Muslim crowds, right? But when Muslim guerillas have two Christian journalists convert to Islam at gunpoint, the world remains silent - there is even a complete absence of Imams and Mullahs who would condem such an action as un-Islamic.

Very sad.

Blacksheep
2nd Sep 2006, 14:14
...they were fulfilling what they saw as a religious obligation.Really? It is a fact that several members of the suicide squad spent the evening of the 10th September 2001 drinking in a lap dancing bar. Perhaps they reasoned that by achieving martyrdom they would automatically wipe this from their 'record'. Or they had been taught that this was so.
Before anyone accuses me of "religionism", I would ask: how many of you have read the Koran cover to cover? I have. Actually, along with the religious books of several other religions, I studied it.
Read it and make up your own minds. You can't read it. It must be studied and the passages interpreted according to context. Refer to my earlier post (page 4?) regarding context.

Disaffected youths - 'born again' Muslims if you like - and new converts are being led astray by false interpretations given by extremists with a political agenda. They use reading rather than study as the basis for their teaching. It is the responsibility and duty of the orthodox majority to resist such false misinterpretation and this is true not only of Islam but also of other religions affected by extremism such as Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism and even Democracy.

CAT1
2nd Sep 2006, 14:55
Ah yes, the Koran does say "there is no compulsion in religion". In fact, this is the only quote in the entire book that says anything that could be construed as religious tolerance.

It also says:
"Believers, do not make make friends with any but your own people"
"Those that deny our revelations shall be punished for their misdeeds"
"You will find that the most implacable of men in their enmity to the faithful are the Jews and the pagans......."
"Those that deny our revelation we will burn in fire"

I could go on. Where is the context in these quotes? There is none. Those that argue that it is a matter of interpretation are grasping at straws. And if it is open to interpretation, who is to say that one interpretation is more valid than another? The more liberal Arabic countries are populated by people with a viewpoint much like ourselves: they do not let a book written during a period when peoples knowledge of the world was based on superstition rather than fact dictate how to live in the present day. The only difference between a cult and a religion is the number of it's followers. Christianity was considered a cult, before it was adopted by the Romans. Religion is the greatest threat to rational thought, and always has been. What was going on in the Dark Ages? The Church held absolute sway, and science went backwards. People were tortured then burned by priests for saying that the Earth was round. What other system of beliefs ,apart from religion, relies purely on faith, with no burden of proof? Eugenics springs to mind.

Blacksheep
3rd Sep 2006, 04:15
Where is the context in these quotes? The context lies in when the verse was 'revealed.' For example the verse referring to jews and pagans refers to the jews and pagans that lived in Medina. Others in Medina at the time were the muslims themselves and those who were weakly aligned with them - referred to usually as the 'hypocrites.' The four verses you quote at random are early Medina verses and must be interpreted in the context of what was happening at the time - the desertion of the jewish Bani Qureyzah tribe to join the Ghatafan and Qureysh clans in their attack upon Medina, in what is referred to variously as the War of the Clans or of the Trench...

You see politics is as always, just as important as religion. As Niccolo Machiavelli put it regarding ecclesiastic or religious leaders - "...they are sustained by higher powers which the human mind cannot comprehend... ... only a rash and presumptuous man would take it upon himself to discuss them."

I guess we are rash and presumptuous men. ;)