Two Large Bags - No Passenger

[spork]

Would it dismay or concern pax and air crew to know that in this time of heightened security alerts, baggage flew Newark to Gatwick on Friday night unaccompanied by the passenger? This is a bags loaded, passenger no-show situation. I can and will provide more information on this.

I thought that there are security regulations in place to always offload unaccompanied bags? I’ve certainly seen this procedure on UK TV programmes, where the flight is delayed while this happens.

I’m not at all happy that this should happen (while stupidity like confiscating passengers’ paperbacks is going on) and I’m prepared to follow through with a complaint (and proof) to whoever should know about this.

[knobbygb]

As a pax I was always under the impression that this was an everyday occurance and that the "rule" of no accompanied bags was just another attempt to reassure the less well informed public. I could list possibly 12 or more occasions when my bags have travelled on a different aircraft than me - usually when they've been "left behind" and arrive a few hours later but twice, both in the US, when they've actually arrived before me :eek: on an earlier flight (where I'd allowed extra connecting time, which obviously wasn't needed). Yep, I know that it'd be hard for someone with ulterior motives to actually plan this, but still makes you think!

Maybe it's just accepted as a fact these days that the 'bad guys' really don't give a toss if they go down in flames with the aircraft.

[spork]

Thanks for the response. I too have always suspected that this happens, but this is the first time I have positive proof. I wonder though, whose rule it is?

I seem to recall that Lockerbie was the result of “bags with no passenger”, and I think that was when the rule was created, but maybe my memory fails me. BUT, in this very high alert status it surprises me that two large bags were happily left on a US to UK flight. The airline definitely knew the passenger was not on board.

[Strepsils]

Be very sure on the specifics of this.

Bags can and often do travel without the accompanying passenger, as knobbygb says usually when they've been left behind. They are then known as "Rush" bugs and undergo extensive screening to ensure the contents are acceptable and are marked as such. How else could your bag be returned to you should it go missing.

If a bag has remained onboard when a passenger has no showed then it is a very different matter, and there will be consequences. Even if the dispatcher at origin does not spot the bag count discrepancy, it will be spotted on arrival and there are severe penalties.

Are you 100% certain it was not a rush bag?

[TSR2]

Any bag left off a flight that a passenger travels on, must travel unaccompanied on another flight for it to be reunited with the passenger.
This must be a daily occurance. Makes one wonder !

[spork]

Be very sure on the specifics of this. I am.

Bags can and often do travel without the accompanying passenger, as knobbygb says usually when they've been left behind.Presume they’ve refers to the bags not the passenger?

They are then known as "Rush" bugs and undergo extensive screening to ensure the contents are acceptable and are marked as such. How else could your bag be returned to you should it go missing.So pax flies, bags left somewhere, they then become “Rush” bugs. That all makes sense.

If a bag has remained onboard when a passenger has no showed then it is a very different matter, and there will be consequences. Even if the dispatcher at origin does not spot the bag count discrepancy, it will be spotted on arrival and there are severe penalties. This applies. Two large bags, no-show passenger, as in my first post above. So whose rule is it? And what are the consequences/severe penalties?

Are you 100% certain it was not a rush bag? Going by the above definition of a rush bag, yes.

“Any bag left off a flight that a passenger travels on, must travel unaccompanied on another flight for it to be reunited with the passenger. This must be a daily occurance. Makes one wonder !” Yes – I think that is obvious, but it clearly is not the question in this thread. See my first post.

[SXB]

Spork
I'm no expert but I'd think there is a "huge" difference between a rush bag and one where a passenger has simply not shown up after checking in for a flight. I think we've all spent time waiting on planes while baggage has been offloaded for a pax that has disappeared. I think everyone treats this as suspicious.

Rush bags are different, the pax can't really predict when a piece of luggage will miss a flight and, normally, they may not be able to predict which flight would subsequently carry such a bag. I still travel to places where baggage is dumped on the tarmac and you then have to point to your bag which is then chalk marked, I'm assuming it's an extra check and they still reconcile baggage to the passenger manifest...

[spork]

I fully understand that rush bags are different; although until tonight I did not know they had a cute name assigned like that.

I agree that there is a huge difference between a rush bag and one where a passenger has simply not shown up after checking in for a flight. If everyone treats this as suspicious, why did it happen, especially on heightened alert like that? And where do I deal with it/report it?

As mentioned in post #1, these bags flew Newark to Gatwick on Friday night unaccompanied by the passenger, who no-showed.

[daz211]

are you sure it was not a chk-in or gate error and the passenger was
onboard and the problem was sorted before departure ?

[spork]

Absolutely sure. As already stated, the airline definitely knew the passenger was not on board.

[apaddyinuk]

As someone who used to work in the Baggage Tracing department of an airline I think I should be able to answer this one.
A bag can be what is known in the aviation world "Rushed" to a destination when it has been seperated from its owner for whatever reason. In order for the bag to be "rushed" unaccompanied a note is placed in the computer system so that the dispatcher AND the flight crew are aware. This bag will then be thouroughly screened before loading and then it will be put on the flight to ensure delivery to the owner.
NOW...If as I suspect your thread is about bags travelling on a flight which their owners missed or were offloaded then I assume that because all bags are now 100% screened in the USA for explosives and whatever else, the dispatcher and captain both decided that it was an "acceptable" risk to take the bags instead of creating a costly and frustrating delay considering they had been fully screened.
Im not sure if it does happen still in my airline but to be honest considering the current security situation I doubt it will happen again. However I personally would not be too worried leaving the states with an unattended bag, other countries however I would be very worried about it.
But this is just my sypnosis so please dont shoot the messenger!

[apaddyinuk]

Sorry, I should have read the rest of the posts before I went into the whole "Rush" bag thing!!!

[spork]

To return to post #1.
Would it dismay or concern pax and air crew to know… …This is a bags loaded, passenger no-show situationDismay, concern, or any other response?

I thought that there are security regulations in place to always offload unaccompanied bags?Well are there?

This sounds completely wrong to me, especially in light of Thursday’s high alert state.

We have other problems of customer service (or rather total lack of) with the US airline, that we will be addressing, but the key issue to me is the above important security issue. Maybe it’s not important. Would everyone be happy flying the Atlantic with (effectively) the baggage hold containing whatever no-show pax decided to ship?

[A2QFI]

I was surprised to hear a news item on Sunday saying that some passengers had checked in baggage at LHR and that they had then got held up at security and the flight had gone with their luggage and without them. This seems to negate the existing rules re unaccomapined baggage and fly in the face of the stringent security measures now in place. As an aside - when a call is made asking 2 named passengers to rush to Gate?? where their flight is closing and their luggage will be offloaded if they don't get there, how long would it take to identify and off load 2 items of hold luggage?

[spork]

This seems to negate the existing rules...And those rules or regs are????

[RevMan2]

As an aside - when a call is made asking 2 named passengers to rush to Gate?? where their flight is closing and their luggage will be offloaded if they don't get there, how long would it take to identify and off load 2 items of hold luggage?

Time to identify? Instantaneous
Time to offload? Depends on where the bag is

The baggage reconciliation applications currently in use identify the passenger who's checked in luggage but hasn't boarded, the container in which the bag is loaded and (pretty roughly) the location within the container.
Sod's Law states that the bag will be at the back of the most inaccesible container....

[apaddyinuk]

Spork, May I suggest you write a letter to the airline asking them what the policy is? Then you will find the answer that you are looking for.
The bags may have travelled for any number of reasons and every airline has different procedures. You cant just assume one airlines rules and regs are practiced at another airline.
Things like this can and do happen and there is very little you will be able to do about it.

[Strepsils]

In the UK it's not down to the airline to set and enforce the rules. The rules regarding bags, pax and security are set by the Department of Transport with input from the CAA.

Best chance of a response would be to ask in the Flight Ops, Crewing and Dispatch forum.

[spork]

Well thanks to Strepsils for the answer that in the UK it’s the Department of Transport with input from the CAA that have formed the rules. I guess as this happened at Newark, it will be the US equivalent, possibly the Port Authority? I’ll keep pursuing this, and eventually I will find out who to report it to.

Some more googling this afternoon has shown that a couple of years ago (post 9-11 of course) the Newark screeners were missing one in four explosives and weapons in undercover tests. In December 2004, screeners lost a fake test bomb; it wound up on a plane to Amsterdam. Apparently, for nearly a year-and-a-half, Newark Airport failed to meet a congressional deadline to electronically screen all checked luggage. Following FOUR YEARS of security breaches, on 10th March 2006 Newark airport's security chief was axed. It doesn’t say if that axe was one of the weapons they missed in their screening. (info courtesy of WCBS News Radio website)

So this, coupled with Continental Airlines failure on Friday evening, tells us what?

Thanks apaddyinuk, I will certainly be contacting Continental about various matters, especially the non-existent customer service. I suspect however, they will make light of the no-show bags. That is why I’d like to know who WILL be interested. I usually find the perpetrators of the misdeed will do anything to make you believe it wasn’t an issue. I too believe at times there is very little one can do about something, but I never let that stop me from trying.

Overall then, this episode gives us reassurance that we are in safe hands in these dangerous times. Not!

[apaddyinuk]

Spork if you feel that strongly about it...not that I really blame you, I would suggest you contact the TSA and the FAA in the States with an email or letter. At least then you have contacted the people who should (i think) be regulating this! Just an idea!

Let us know what the outcome is wont you?

[spork]

Yes - thanks for that. I see that the TSA website has a “Report Security Violations and Concerns” email address. I certainly do feel strongly about the possibility of another Lockerbie. Essentially Continental at Newark are inviting anyone to ship a large bag or bags on a packed passenger plane, and no, you don’t actually have to travel with it.

If anyone wants to counter that modern security screening makes that highly unlikely, just google “Newark airport security” and settle down for a long read…

[striparella]

Hmm...it is VERY unusual for bags to travel without the pax (Not Rush bags), but not completely unheard of.

At my airline we've actually called aircraft back on stand after push back in this situation!

Very bad of CO!

[spork]

All the more interesting when you consider that Continental failed to help the inexperienced passenger catch the flight, then flew the bags without the passenger, then demanded £40 to reunite the passenger with the bags as they “failed to collect” the bags from the carousel. You would have to be a very clever pax to collect bags with the Atlantic between you and them.

We had to pay the £40 under duress of them keeping the bags, but obviously we will be pursuing all their failures. (I'm not sure who deals with that sort of problem) I predict a complete waste of our time and effort however, as in my experience, companies that act like this are usually right all the time, and customers are usually wrong all the time.

[bealine]

Hmm...it is VERY unusual for bags to travel without the pax (Not Rush bags), but not completely unheard of.

With Continental it happens all the time! Regularly we receive bags for pax supposed to be transferring on to British Airways metal. When the pax no-show at our gate, it often transpires that the passenger failed to show for the CO flight!

It's not a daily occurence, but certainly at leat once a week both from Newark and Houston!

We have alerted Continental's Head Office at Houston, even once writing directly to Larry Kellnher, their CEO, but our letters remain unanswered.

[spork]

Well, thanks everyone for all of the the detailed information. I will definitely post back on how this goes. Obviously these procedures have been in place for a long time, and of course this incident has now happened during “heightened security”.

10th March 2006, Marcus Arroyo, head of security at Newark was sacked - so whoever took over from him obviously cannot get it right either!

[spork]

An update:

As I said here a while ago, companies that act like this are usually right all the time, and customers are usually wrong all the time. My letter of complaint to Houston addressed the issues: 1) Continental staff at more than one location failed to help the inexperienced passenger catch the flight, even when known to be late running into Newark, 2) Continental were happy, in the high alert state, to then fly the bags without the passenger, 3) Continental then demanded £40 to reunite the passenger with the bags.

I suppose it will come as no surprise in this day and age that Continental have completely ignored this written complaint, sent twice now. Interesting to see their claims with regard to “low levels of customer complaints”. That low level will be complaints they deal with, presumably.

I will continue to pursue all their failures until I get an answer, or get bored. I will however, for many many years of course, relate the story of their dismal performance to fellow travellers.

[nivsy]

Maybe slightly off topic - but am i the only one to notice that on arrival at LHR T1 and in the baggage reclaim hall there are are a considerable about of baggage "unclaimed" that quite frankly lay around the reclaim belts (not on the belts but on the ground) where many do not even have "rush" tags on them. This has been curious to me in the past and more recently worrying. Is this just missing bags and if so - its not very confidence building to know that they just sit there awaiting say following morning movement to airlines to carry to destination. And i do want to re-iterate - this is not one or two bags - but a significant number and quite frankly they do get in the way of all pax trying to reclaim their own bags.


Nivsy

[PaperTiger]

I was surprised to hear a news item on Sunday saying that some passengers had checked in baggage at LHR and that they had then got held up at security and the flight had gone with their luggage and without them. This seems to negate the existing rules re unaccomapined baggage and fly in the face of the stringent security measures now in place.Not really, the PPBM thing is to prevent a "pax" from intentionally travelling separately, or indeed not at all.

If it happens due to reasons over which the pax has no control (rush bags, stuck in security etc.) and could not have predicted then it's hard for me to envision a threat situation under the circumstances. You may feel differently of course.

[Globaliser]

If it happens due to reasons over which the pax has no control (rush bags, stuck in security etc.) and could not have predicted then it's hard for me to envision a threat situation under the circumstances. You may feel differently of course.It seems to me that you'd have to be pretty confident that the passenger had been involuntarily stuck in security, rather than contrived a reason to be held up in the queue or at the screening point - or, indeed, not actually been held up where he claimed to have been held up.

[Strepsils]

If a passenger doesn't make it to the aircraft and the captain decides they are not waiting any longer, then the pax AND their bags are offloaded. At no time should an aircraft be dispatched knowingly with unnacompanied bags on board(Rush bags being the exception).

[spork]

nivsy I think it’s entirely relevant that you bring up apparent breaches of security, that’s what this thread is essentially about. It’s just a pity that the security bods are too busy taking paperbacks and Oil of Ulay off people in a huge queue not so far away, and haven’t got the time or resources for abandoned bags in the airport.

PaperTiger Sorry, what is a PPBM thing?

Globaliser Yes, that was my immediate thought too. The unattended baggage rules were put in place to protect travellers and crew. We pax have to obey, why don’t airlines? Why are the rules being ignored? Because it’s a bit inconvenient to have to offload a bag or two, that’s why. Much rather depart the gate on time and hope…

Strepsils Totally agree! One is a terrier with a bone on this one. The more Continental decide to ignore me on this security complaint the longer it will go on.

Worse still, it is clear from this thread that Continental are in the habit of doing this.

[slim_slag]

You shouldn't believe everything you read on the Internet :)

If you've got documentary evidence of everything you allege together with evidence you have mailed the letters, I'd simply hit them in the small claims court for the £40. A letter from a court is always more likely to get an airline's attention than a letter from a disgruntled customer.

[Final 3 Greens]

If it happens due to reasons over which the pax has no control (rush bags, stuck in security etc.) and could not have predicted then it's hard for me to envision a threat situation under the circumstances. You may feel differently of course.

Try this one.

Passenger has "medical emergency" jus before departure, e.g. panic attack at last minute, plane departs sans pax.

30 mins later pax, recovered, leaves airport and disappears.

60 mins later "boom."

[PaperTiger]

PaperTiger[/b] Sorry, what is a PPBM thing?Positive passenger bag matching. That's what we call it, might be a different acronym elsewhere.

[PaperTiger]

If it happens due to reasons over which the pax has no control (rush bags, stuck in security etc.) and could not have predicted then it's hard for me to envision a threat situation under the circumstances. You may feel differently of course.
Try this one.
Passenger has "medical emergency" just before departure, e.g. panic attack at last minute, plane departs sans pax.
30 mins later pax, recovered, leaves airport and disappears.
60 mins later "boom."Judgement calls. I tried to inidcate the non-inclusive nature by no control and etc. Yes, in your scenario above, the bags should be pulled. In others, there would be no need to although SOP might dictate otherwise. Judgement calls; but then the whole security theatre is based on a complete absence of judgement calls. Whether one thinks that's a bad or good thing depends on one's mindset :=

[Romeo Delta]

I have often wondered about this, as the airline I fly most frequently often likes to put my bags on an earlier flight. I fly a lot of A class (since I am a large person, and need the space), and so there is an all coach flight that leaves my connecting city earlier than my actual flight. My bag is usually on the all-coach flight, which means my bag gets to the destination about 1 1/2 hours before I do.

Was once on a non-stop flight (same airline) that was oversold. I took the bump (with all the requisite freebies) and then watched my luggage get on the plane I was just bumped from. Mentioned it to the gate agent, who didn't seem to stressed about it.

I guess it's a pattern with this particular airline.

Now, it begs the question. "What if..."

[Globaliser]

Now, it begs the question. "What if..."If the philosophy is that you prevent the pax from choosing to travel without his bag, then neither of those situations really falls foul of it (although both seem pretty close to the line, IMHO).

In the first case, you will never know whether the bag's on your flight or has been sent on ahead; in the second, when you packed and checked it in, you wouldn't have known whether there would be an opportunity to volunteer to fly on a different flight or whether your offer would be accepted. In either case, for all you knew you might have been on the same flight as your bag; ergo, no risk.

If, however, you'd asked to be positively offloaded in the second case, rather than just volunteering to be bumped at the airline's option if they needed it, then it seems to me that you would have been on the other side of the line.

[spork]

Romeo Delta Have you ever wondered where your bags might get to? I've often thought that at the carousel one could purloin an extra bag if one felt inclined. (generic black nylon holdalls for example) If your bag regularly arrives hours before you, what route has it taken at the airport, and how do you locate it?

[spork]

You shouldn't believe everything you read on the Internet

If you've got documentary evidence of everything you allege together with evidence you have mailed the letters, I'd simply hit them in the small claims court for the £40. A letter from a court is always more likely to get an airline's attention than a letter from a disgruntled customer.
slim_slag Can I assume from this you think I am making this all up? Please clarify.

Can I put an American (Houston) address in a UK CC claim?

[slim_slag]

No, but the judge will want to see evidence. CO must have a place of business in the UK, who did you give the £40 to? Go after them in your local small claims court, you can do it on the web, google "small claims court england".

[spork]

CO must have a place of business in the UK
Not according to their website they haven't. Feel free to see if you can attract their attention.

[Romeo Delta]

Globaliser, it does seem that both situations are very close to the line. But neither really across it, I suppose.

In the first case, you will never know whether the bag's on your flight or has been sent on ahead;

Generally true. In specific cases, whenever I travel from the US west coast to the US east coast (where I live), the bag has arrived before me in every instance for the last 1 1/2 years. I head down to bag claim where I find my suitcase sitting just outside the door of the Bag Office.

Second case is quite understandable that I would not have known I was getting bumped (was hoping, as it meant switching from an ERJ145 to a 738), but still goes against the "Bag can not travel without the Pax" mantra. Of course, if I was a suicidal maniac, then it wouldn't matter if I was on the plane or not. (I don't remember if the bomber was on the Pan Am flight over Scotland; was he?)

Spork, I have often worried that my bag would go on walkabout before I got there. As it has happened regularly in the last couple years, I feel pretty lucky. It's a pretty short flight from this airline's hub to my location, so I know it's not going far afield, but I have worried about someone else picking up the bag. So far the only thing to disappear during my travels (knock wood) has been a Gillette Mach 3 Turbo shaver (go figure!). :=

And I guess I'm lucky that I travel so much out of my particular airport. I've gotten to know most of the desk personnel and TSA agents around these parts, so I usually get the speedy treatment. :ok:

[slim_slag]

CO must have a place of business in the UK
Not according to their website they haven't. Feel free to see if you can attract their attention.Why would I want to 'attract their attention'? I haven't flown them in years and all my planned trips to where they fly are on other airlines.


Their address is very easy to find (and is on their website if you look)

Beulah Court
Albert Road
Horley
Surrey
RH6 7HP
United Kingdom

One of the advantages of the small claims system is the claimant can do all the work himself.

the bag has arrived before me in every instance for the last 1 1/2 yearsThat is quite remarkable. So in 'every instance' you must have checked in well prior to the flight-before-yours for them to have got your bags on the earlier flight? Or you stopped somewhere, and you didn't get the next flight out, because that's the only way it can happen as you claim. Or you might take a long time to get from the gate to the carousel?

[Strepsils]

Papertiger your scenario above, the bags should be pulled. In others, there would be no need to

Wrong, wrong, wrong!! I can't make this any clearer : Under NO circumstances should a passengers bag remain on a departing aircraft if the passenger is not on board. It's not a judgement call, it's a legal obligation on the part of the handling agent/airline. Remember Lockerbie? That's why the system is in place. There is no ambiguity. If a pax is not on the aircraft, then their bag MUST be removed. To not do so is illegal, unsafe and downright stupid.:*

[Romeo Delta]

That is quite remarkable. So in 'every instance' you must have checked in well prior to the flight-before-yours for them to have got your bags on the earlier flight? Or you stopped somewhere, and you didn't get the next flight out, because that's the only way it can happen as you claim. Or you might take a long time to get from the gate to the carousel?

slim_slag, I connect through a hub. As I mentioned before, I fly A class a lot, and there is an all coach flight that leaves for my destination an hour before my flight (the next flight with a first class section). So I sit in the lounge catching up on e-mails while my bag wings its way down to my destination on the all-coach flight. I get in an hour to an hour and a half later, and there is my bag at the bag office.

[PaperTiger]

If a pax is not on the aircraft, then their bag MUST be removed. To not do so is illegal, unsafe and downright stupid.:*Fits in very nicely with most of the other so-called security provisions then :rolleyes: .

[slim_slag]

Well that's very interesting Romeo Delta. I reckon you have found a hole :)

[lexxity]

US carriers regualarly send bags ahead of pax, it's happened to me a good few times both internal and international, US to UK.

I have NEVER seen this happen in the UK. I have seen it nearly happen and delayed flights ensue. If it did happen in the UK the airline has actually commited an offence.

[Globaliser]

... but still goes against the "Bag can not travel without the Pax" mantra.As I understand the philosophy, it's "passenger cannot choose to travel without the bag". I think the idea is that so long as there is a chance that the passenger will have to travel with the bag, the passenger will not put a bomb in it. He's only going to bomb the aircraft with the bag if he can be assured that he will not be on the aircraft. In a sense, the philosophy holds him hostage to his own good behaviour. So in both your cases, you have not chosen to travel without the bag; on the day, there is always a chance that it will be on your aircraft.

That's the philosophy - it sounds like some countries have stricter rules, with which I'm very comfortable. ;)

Agreed about the suicide bomber, but there have to be different defences against one of them.

[Strepsils]

Papertiger - Sorry to harp on at you, but I don't get the point of your last post.

Do you mean that being stupid by not taking the bags off fits in with other seemingly thoughtless security descisions, or that the requirement to remove bags if the passenger is not flying is a thoughtless security decision?

[PaperTiger]

Papertiger - Sorry to harp on at you, but I don't get the point of your last post.
Do you mean that being stupid by not taking the bags off fits in with other seemingly thoughtless security decisions, or that the requirement to remove bags if the passenger is not flying is a thoughtless security decision?Both. Many of the things done in the name of security are thoughtless (as you put it), stupid as I would call them. To remove unaccompanied bags in every circumstance is thoughtless and unnecessary IMO. The judgement thing again, although I concede that not everybody involved in security could be trusted to exercise sound judgement.
Yes, I remember Lockerbie; and Anne-Marie Murphy too. Both irrelevant to the discussion at hand.

[spork]

Their address is very easy to find (and is on their website if you look) I did look (already said that) and they have UK addresses relating to various services, but NOT Customer Service. I am currently emailing their so called Customer Service addy daily and getting absolutely no response other than pointless “ticket numbers”. So much for customers eh Continental?

Feel free to see if you can attract their attention. If you know what the thread is about slim_slag, then you’d know what I’m talking about. It clearly does not mean it is obligatory for you to do anything.

One of the advantages of the small claims system is the claimant can do all the work himself. Yes, I have used the CC system before, and know all the ins and outs of making a claim. It has not reached that stage yet. In the past I have found CC judges expect you to have made an effort to sort the problem out and document how poor the response (if any) has been.

However, feel free to persist in challenging posters here for whatever motive it is you have.

Concerning bags going on ahead regularly, I wouldn’t fly with an airline that leaves my bag around initially on a carousel, and later outside a door, for all and sundry to have access to it.

Yes, I remember Lockerbie… …irrelevant to the discussion at hand. Lockerbie was a bag or bags travelling without pax, so is completely relevant. No knowledge of the other case.

I would have thought that one clear reason to pull a no show pax’ bags is security, and agree wholeheartedly with Strepsils on that. I also agree it is NOT a judgement call. Another pretty obvious reason is that when you let down an inexperienced international passenger and leave them stranded in a deserted airport for 22 hours, is that they might a) Want something out of their bags, like a wash kit, and b) Might end up changing their plans due to the shabby and inept service received.

Maybe the challenging bulls here will think differently when we have another Lockerbie.

[ExSimGuy]

Some 30 years ago, long before Lockerbie, I was departing on a BCAL (remember them?) flight to Italy when we were delayed due to a pax having a "panic attack" and refusing to board. The bags were all offloaded and put on the ground beside the aircraft so that pax could ident their own and ensure that nothing was flown "without pax".

Another occasion, just after Lockerbie, I was with my kids on a Pan-Am (is it me? - another airline that is no more!) returning from Athens and our bags got left behind during a transit at Frankfurt (due to confusion that was partly my own fault). Bags arrived at various times over the next couple of days. I was told by PanAm that they put these "rush" bags through a depressurisation and bags get a random number of cycles of time and depressurisations.

I have been on a flight (BIA - also "aviation history"!!) from LGW to one of the Channel Isles when the "early" flight was delayed until almost the departure time of the later flight, and my bag was on the following aircraft, and a Gulf Air (still around!!!) when a flight was cancelled, pax split between two other routes, and the bags took a different route to me.

In the first 2 cases, the failure of pax to fly was, or could have been, premeditated - hence the offload. In the BIA and GF cases, there was no way that I could have known this would happen. IMHO, that is how it should be. Spork could have intentionally missed his connection,and (again IMHO) I think CO were irresponsible if they allowed his bags to travel without him.

(and I think the 40 quid "fine" for not collecting them from the carousel is well OTT:eek:)

Good luck with the claim mate!

[spork]

Thanks for an interesting post ExSimGuy.

"Spork could have intentionally missed his connection" Twas not me, was my daughter, a very inexperienced flyer. On the way IN via Newark, both daughters had to go to the carousel to claim their bags and enter the country, so on the way back they both thought that the same procedure applied in reverse. (on entering they both then took a connecting flight elsewhere)

No.1 daughter got to Newark an hour or so earlier from a different flight. Continental didn’t mention the automatic bag transfer to her either, so she also went in search of her bag. On enquiring where her bag was after waiting a long time, they told her. So very helpful. Exactly the same happened to No.2 daughter, except that with her incoming Continental flight running late, she then missed the UK flight because of searching the carousel. They knew she definitely wasn’t on the plane as an attendant asked No.1 daughter. No.2 daughter’s bags were obviously placed on the plane very late, therefore an offload would have been extremely easy. Being stuck at Newark for 22hrs she would have liked her bags. She was told that “everything was locked away now so she couldn't have them”. No offer of help with safe accommodation or use of phone or subsistence was made. Nice treatment of a young looking 19-year old at 11pm, with nothing but a paperback in her hand!

[PaperTiger]

They knew she definitely wasn’t on the plane as an attendant asked No.1 daughter. No.2 daughter’s bags were obviously placed on the plane very late, therefore an offload would have been extremely easy. Being stuck at Newark for 22hrs she would have liked her bags.Ah. :hmm:I think CO were irresponsible if they allowed her(sic) bags to travel without her(sic).Disagree. Firstly, all checked bags originating in the US undergo a CTX scan. Supposedly. Now if you believe this was not done or is ineffective in detecting an explosive device, then that's a whole other can of worms...
CO knew who Spork's daughter was, where she was and why she had missed the connection. Don't know who made the call not to pull her bag, CSR or the Capt., but since the plane is NOT at the bottom of the Atlantic it appears to have been a good call.

If nobody actually made any kind of call and no intervention of any kind happened, then I would agree CO was derelict. I'm guessing they weighed the situation and determined a complete absence of threat.

Tough on daughter no. 2, but hey **** happens.

[Strepsils]

Yes, I remember Lockerbie; and Anne-Marie Murphy too. Both irrelevant to the discussion at hand
OK, now I am going to harp on:*
Lockerbie is irrelevant to a discussion about bags travelling unnacompanied? What planet are you on? Do you know how Lockerbie occurred? That is the very reason why we now have the AAA system here in the UK.
Please tell me you don't actually work in Aviation? If so, will you stand up and take the rap when your "judgement" goes wrong and an aircraft is destroyed in-flight? I sincerely hope you're never involved in the dispatch of one of my flights if this is honestly your view on baggage reconcilliation.:mad:

[spork]

Hear hear Strepsils!

Paper Tiger, it’s difficult to interpret what Ah and Hmmm means.

According to news items like Arroyo being sacked, Newark has a poor record on security. (see above) So maybe bags only just loaded could be pulled just in case?

“CO knew who Spork's daughter was, where she was and why she had missed the connection.” Pity then that 1) They failed to act in the first place by letting pax know at check-in how their bags will be processed, and 2) Put something in their check-in procedures to avoid this happening for everybody in the future. Judging by bealine’s earlier post, they must know of this weakness in the system, so why not close the loophole and have happy passengers? I have made that point to them in my complaint letter, sent twice, which they are completely ignoring.

Other daughter assumed the same (to go to carousel) but was not on a delayed flight, thus the wasted time had no effect. Next time I suppose an assumption like that will mean THEY travel and not their bags. All that CO check-in staff (in two separate airports of course) had to do was say to the paying customer “Your bags will automatically go to the onward flight at Newark”. Is that so damned hard?

It might not be their fault they were late running, but it was their fault they could not be bothered to tell a few pax something that would mean they would actually catch their connecting flight. Leaving a 19-year old alone with no assistance of any sort offered, and none of her stuff to hand just adds insult to injury and is shabby treatment.

“but since the plane is NOT at the bottom of the Atlantic it appears to have been a good call.” So “suck it and see” is a good security procedure then?