Raytheon Premier issues

[rubengonz]

Hi, I want to get info about the Premier, maybe we are getting one of them and I want to be sure if it´s a good aircraft or not, common failures, max range (real, not from factory), range with max payload... and so on, you know...

Thank you to all of you, have a good day!!! ;)

[B200Drvr]

A common failure is the paint keeps coming off, buy a BIG tin of touch up paint

[chevvron]

Try Manhattan Jet Centre at Farnborough; they're currently operating three.

[rubengonz]

Thank you...

[Looooong haul]

Have the problems with the repairs been adressed? I understood that in the past for problems the aircraft had to go back to the factory :ugh:

[His dudeness]

So far, there are 12 AD´s on the A/C issued

and

101 Service Bulletins.

Our Aircraft was in the shop 64 times until now and has 1600 hrs (200 hrs intervals - go figure)

(Flew CJ2 before that went to see mx 14 times in 1200 hrs)

There is one AD currently, that requires an eddy current inspection of a hydraulic line every 50 hrs.

Very electric airplane...if it works, our R390 guys say, its marvelous.
Proline 21 and FMS are the best you can buy IMO.
A lot of snags that can be resetted by removing power from A/C and then restart. (Sort of windows, I think...)

BUT reqires lots of runway and the range/payload is not great (ours can have 1 male pax @212lbs with full fuel - with 6 male pax possible fuel drops from 3600 lbs to 2600lbs)

Look what you need it for, then decide. (Long range with
heavy load out of small rwys - not Premier country, I´d say)
Nice Cabin though.

[Looooong haul]

Any structural AD's or SB's or mainly electrical and hydraulic?

[His dudeness]

Haven´t go the list available right now, but from memory its mostly system stuff.
Can´t remember a "real" [structural]issue.

[spider123]

See you PM's.

[His dudeness]

spider, there is no PM in my inbox...

[Fly Better!]

Not that it really matters but I think they are probably the most ugly biz jet ever made, and I can say that because I am very good looking myslef. :} :8

[airmen]

Can go here http://www1.airweb.faa.gov/Regulatory_and_Guidance_Library/rgAD.nsf for ADs, click current or new then go to R for Raytheon then choose your model and youve got it!

[nasa]

I've had a little limited experience with the Premier however, from a sales standpoint. I have to say that I'm not at all impressed with the 1, however, the 1A shows vast improvement.
Is there anyone out there that can give me the real story on these aircraft, 1 or 1A. Would like to know what opinions are on the interior noise factor, handling, maintenance, fuel burn, the good the bad and the ugly please.
Pen poised over paper to purchase a 1, or a Bravo/CJ2

[spider123]

It is true that aircraft improve over time and I am sure the 1A is the case. But I can't personally see the value in it. I may stand corrected, but I understand you get three main differences with the 1A :

1. Improved Brake Feel, which is undoubtedly a good improvement, but this doesn't improve declared runway performance.
2. EFIS Charts. A great help on the ground at busy airports, I can vouch for.
3. A new interior which may or may not improve the sound proofing, which was improved in later serial numbers anyway. It is hard to be subjective on this point as it depends on the aircraft/power setting/altitude etc.

So why can't I see the value ? Well 1 and 2 above are both available as SB kits (brakes are circa $60k) and don't add up to the substantial differences between new and pre-owned values.

Premier 1 residual values have been hit really hard by poor factory support and all those teething problems plus runway excursions. All these issues have been well sorted out, infact it scored higher than the Citation range in the latest Professional Pilot Survey for support. That is the measure of their improvement.

Buy a Premier 1A and you'll find your $$$ disappear in depreciation faster than a speeding bullet.

I am biased, most people are one way or other, but save you $$$ on a new one and buy a good pre-owned unit (late s/n), it will save you $$$,000's !

And at the end of the day sometimes value for money is more important than vanity!

This is just my opinion, no offence intended to anyone!

[nasa]

This is the question. If the aircraft is as good as people say :rolleyes: why has the value gone down quicker than Monica Lewinski??? I know of people who would like to get out of their aircraft, but just can't afford to. Why??? Is the aircraft the "plastic pig" in reality, or is it the same old story. Aircraft starts out a pig and improves but too little to late it already has a stigma!!

[His dudeness]

nasa, I have been flying Bravos and CJ2´s, was maintenance manager for the CJ2 and I am maintenance manager for a Premier 1 (which I don´t fly).

I flew Beech KingAirs for a long time, most Citations for a while and I´m flying a Bombardier product right now.
For factory support in the field, I´d vote Cessna number 1, BUT both, Raytheon and Bombardier start to realize that they have to do something about it. And they try hard IMO. (I´m talking Europe, can´t comment for any other region)
Now for your selection - and this is only my opinion - I´d rank the CJ2 no1. Why?
More range, quietest cabin, very good heating / aircond, and HUGE baggage capacity and relatively good runway performance. And it also looks pretty nice IMO.

The Premier is the biggest cabin and I guess its loads of fun to fly (thats what the Premier pilots in our company tell me) but range is simply to short for a jet, runway performance is bad (especially if you want to operate commercially) and maintenance is still an issue. Also I´d rate the cabin interior quality as not high. This was a real surprise for me, cause the KingAir interiors were always good quality.

The bravo is a good aircraft, but the systems and maintenance is old fashioned , it is slow and looks ugly. The EFIS cant compete with Proline 21.

uel burn...too lazy to pull out all the numbers, but it cant hold 3600lbs and goes roughly 1000nm with that. The CJ2 has 3960 lbs capacity and flies 1300nm. But the CJ2 can cruise in 450 and the R390 only at 410. So no real big difference.
The Bravo has 4800 lbs fuel capcity and can cruise at F450, but has to burn fuel before it reaches 450...

A few numbers I´ve run trough my flightplanning system:

350nm Trip, 6 Pax@ 212lbs 100lbs Baggage (The Premier can only take 6 male plus 30 lbs - ZFM limited)
@FL350
CJ2 - 1:04 / 1100lbs tripfuel
PRM1 - 0:50 / 1010 lbs tripfuel
Bravo - 1:08 / 1260 lbs tripfuel
@FL390
CJ2 - 1:05 / 980lbs tripfuel
PRM1 - 0:54 / 950 lbs tripfuel
Bravo - 1:10 / 1180 lbs tripfuel

790nm Trip, 6 Pax@ 212lbs 100lbs Baggage (The Premier can only take 4 male plus 60 lbs - TOM limited)
@FL410
CJ2 - 2:13 / 1920lbs tripfuel
PRM1 - 1:57 / 1850 lbs tripfuel
Bravo - 2:18 / 2160 lbs tripfuel

950nm Trip, 6 Pax@ 212lbs 100lbs Baggage (The Premier can only take 3 male plus 60 lbs - ZFM limited)
@FL410
CJ2 - 2:35 / 2180lbs tripfuel (at FL450 2:39 / 1970lbs)
PRM1 - 2:18 / 2060 lbs tripfuel
Bravo - 2:45 / 2420 lbs tripfuel (at FL450 2:50 / 2360lbs)

The Bravo could all these flights with 8 or 9 Pax (Seating for 7 plus belted toilet is Standard), the CJ2 with 7 (seating for 6 is standard, belted toilet and side facing seat instead of galley can be ordered)
The Premier has only the 6 seat layout I think.

[deing]

Another overrun, take from the NTSB website

On December 6, 2006, at about 1320 local time, a Raytheon Premier jet, registered in Spain as EC-IOZ and owned and operated by Gestair Executive Jet, experienced an overrun during landing at Deauville, France. There were no injuries to the occupants of the airplane and only minor damage to the airplane.

[aerodog]

What are some actual empty weights from the FAA AFM?

[captain coldfront]

You should take a look at the B 400. It does everything the Bravo does only faster, has a bigger cabin and is more reliable. The draw-back is a lack of luggage space and having to use a fuel ice-inhibitor.
To be fair these are not big problems, clients get to know how much luggage they can carry and the space appears to be elastic (never had to refuse bags). The additive is a bit of nusiance.

[His dudeness]

@AERODOG: I know the weights of 2 aircraft, one weighs 8405 lbs, the other 8390 lbs. Both Premier 1´s not 1A´s.

[thebuzz]

Has any one heard a rumour that the FAA have stopped Raytheon from delivering new Premiers due to safety concerns ?? :ooh:

[aerodog]

...dude,

Thanks for the empty weights, the factory claims 8,200 lbs for a 1A with no options. That's pretty close.

[nasa]

Another overrun, take from the NTSB website
On December 6, 2006, at about 1320 local time, a Raytheon Premier jet, registered in Spain as EC-IOZ and owned and operated by Gestair Executive Jet, experienced an overrun during landing at Deauville, France. There were no injuries to the occupants of the airplane and only minor damage to the airplane.
By my count that makes 9 since the Premier was released!!!!!!
Has any one heard a rumour that the FAA have stopped Raytheon from delivering new Premiers due to safety concerns ??
Lets see......First post from Spain........Wasn't you flying IOZ was it the buzz
:E :E :E
Seriously.....Where did you hear such a rumour??????

[thebuzz]

it wasnot me flying it but I do no who it was. :hmm: I think it may be more than 9 that have over run, at least this one was only small damage.
Any one else heard this news about new aircraft ?
The rumour came from a normally reliable person.:oh:

[HyFlyer]

Lets face it. the best equipment upgrade for the Premier would be a bloody great big hook on the back:rolleyes:

That or perhaps fixing floats and allowing it land on water......the Atlantic should be big enough....it wouldn't run off that :p

[ssg]

There are those that fly this plane and those that don't...like Mu2s.

The Premier 1 is a great aircraft.

Only aircraft right now that can flow single pilot at 41,000 and do .80
Great avionics..no T/Rs to worry about. Auto slats do a great job and with the demo pilot and myself, I landed with a ref of 115 in 2500 feet. Williams engines sip fuel. good Raytheon support, big cabin. Meant to be the competition for the Cj2, but it looks funny.

The fact is, if you take a look at it, it look like the nose of a Citation X, area rule happening here. I liked it in my demo. It doesn't go far, and doesn't carry any weight. The rocket scientists at Raytheon wanted a Part 23 aircraft thinking the market was in Cjs. The SJ30 is the new hot rod that have everyone dumping thier Lears and Citations quickly, Cjs with be a thing of the past...

I needed a single pilot jet that would carry 9 pax, moving up from a Citation SII. The Enocre has a zero fuel weight limitation that was too restrictive, so I bought an Ultra, great aircraft. But .75 at 37000 is not .80 at 41000. Rumours that a Premier 2 might come out, a little longer, faster, better range, more pax.

I looked at all aspects of the Premier, I mean all, and couldn't find major issues, many operators love them. But it has no range, and doesnt carry people. Its perfect for two couples flying from W. Coast to Midwest.


Considering that most corporate aircraft statisticaly don't take off with more then 4 pax, it's really quite nice...and did I say it sips fuel? The biz owner with a single pilot captain, light loads, big cabin, and low fuel and maitanance costs will love this plane.

[Flying chimp]

Looks like thebuzz might have been well informed... Nice FAA AD released on Premier

[gregmcd1]

FAA has stop delivery of the Premier 1A until the STC for the new hydraulic system is approved, all those flying Premier before RB177 must have a visual inspection on Hydraulic link every 50 hours, to avoid it, there is a new system that FAA want on board on all new Premier; when they will apporve the STC the aircraft will be delivered.

[thebuzz]

the FAA AD issued 12/28/06 says to now inspect lines every25 hours!! this hurts, when will raytheon get the new kits approved

[HyFlyer]

There are those that fly this plane and those that don't...like Mu2s.
The Premier 1 is a great aircraft.
Only aircraft right now that can flow single pilot at 41,000 and do .80
.
Not actually correct about being only aircraft that can do this in this class. the current class leader in performance terms.....that is for in production or announced aircraft in development.........is the Sino Swearingen SJ30
2,500nm range, Mach 0.83 and FL490 capability (with a 1,800ft cabin altitude...amazing....and better than a G550 in this respect...although a somewhat smaller cabin).
SJ30 holds the Light Jet record and for Farnborough Airshow set the World record for San Antonio, Texas to Farnborough in just under 11 hours and with only a single stop.
Single pilot certified, known icing etc etc...andd available for about $6.5 mil or less I think......
It is in production, as first aircraft was delivered in Oct/Nov 2006 after the NBAA.......
certianly worth a look, as not often there is a new type on the market with such impressive stats.....
The aircraft also looks daaammm smooooooth..... unlike the Premier Hog.

[aerodog]

HyFlyer,

I can't get excited about the landing gear configuration on the SJ.

Do you have any idea what the cross-wind limitation is per the AFM?

[ssg]

The SJ30 might be best in class, but no one has one, including my guy that put some money one.


Reminds me of the guy that said that the other guys car was crappy, the guy with the car remarked, it's better then yours, because you don't have one.

Right now...the Premier is the hot rod, but what's .76 vs .80.

The Ultra that I flew was quick enough,and since we are talkin single pilot here, I can sit at FL 450 in an Ultra, FL41 in the Premier...it's nice to get above the weather....

[inner]

Hi

Just to pick up this thread, it has been claimed that the SJ30 can fly 2500nm. Is that the range with the ifr reserves touched or untouched?


grtz