Qantas to introduce AWA'a

[Australia2]

Qantas to bring in AWAs
August 13, 2006
QANTAS will soon start introducing Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs) into certain parts of its workforce, chief executive Geoff Dixon says.
He declined to confirm whether engineers and flight crew would be the first to move onto the controversial individual contracts, which, he said, would benefit staff as well as the company.

Mr Dixon said Qantas would take advantage of new flexibilities under federal laws after having been, as he put it, a union-held outfit for many years.

"We have 16 unions, we have 45 enterprise bargaining agreements within this company and 20 of them, or 15 of them, are live at the moment, in other words we are negotiating them," he said to the Nine Network.

"We will be announcing very shortly that we are going to put AWAs into certain areas of the Qantas group."

Mr Dixon said the company would announce more details in time.

"We have come to the conclusion in recent months that we need a range of industrial instruments and we will be still, very much, having our enterprise bargaining agreements with a lot of our people, but where we need greater flexibility, where we think it's better utilised, we will be using AWAs," he said.

"I assure people that any AWAs Qantas puts in will be very, very good for the people as well as the company, but we will need the flexibility and we will need the productivity we can probably get out of them but these will not be like some people are alleging that they'll be bottom of the barrel. They will not be."

Mr Dixon said he did not know the origin of speculation that another 1200 jobs would be lost inside Qantas, but confirmed he was preparing redundancies.

"We must continue to change the way we do business, that will involve us getting out of some parts of our business and it will involve further streamlining of our business.

"We have indicated that there'll be about 1000 management positions going from the company within the next six to nine months and that will be starting to proceed probably in the next two or three weeks – it's just about being finalised now."

[Ultralights]

i suppose the first question should be, will the company negotiate the AWA details with ALL staff as a group? will every staff member have the same contract? or will they have a situation like Boeing had in Williamtown with every staff member on a different AWA, yet all doing the same job....


"I assure people that any AWAs Qantas puts in will be very, very good for the people as well as the company,

so the Basic lowest level AME should expect 48K without shift penalties or overtime and a 40 Hour week. 15 days sick leave, and 120 Hrs annual leave PA...

[U.K. SUBS.]

I agree with everything there ultra. Is the transfer of business clause part of IR as well?. If you note that dicko said also the 787's may not be transfered to QF i guess Brisbane will become Boeing heavy maint. very quickly and there is not one thing that could be done about it. It is 100% legal under the new workplace laws. The race to the bottom is well and truly started:(

[Buster Hyman]

So, as an example to the many fine workers at QF, GD will go onto an AWA as well?:suspect:

One thing I would like to see is John Howard & all the other pollies put on one. Surely, as they are OUR employees (as taxpayers) we can negotiate their AWA.....? No more free travel Comm Cars and fitted offices...time to get real!

[Mike Kontoulous]

So, as an example to the many fine workers at QF, GD will go onto an AWA as well

Well his sort of is. The board can 'let him go' at any time.

[neville_nobody]

After seeing Dixon on Business Sunday QF pilots should be very worried as they might become extinct. Dixon made several hints in relation to things going to the "cheapest option" and that the 787 might all go to jetstar.
If this does happen it will make the whole QF recruiting system farcicial as they will be hiring all the people that they didn't want flying their aircraft in the first instance!! Money talks louder than their pysch and skills testing I suppose.

[Wirraway]

Mon "The Australian"

Jetstar cabin crew to lead AWAs
Steve Creedy
August 14, 2006

FLIGHT attendants with Jetstar International will spearhead a Qantas move towards Australian Workplace Agreements as management steps up its battle to cut costs.
Jetstar will move to sidestep its flight attendants' union by today announcing it will require cabin crew on its new international services to be on AWAs. It will also establish a crew base in Bangkok, although it says the majority of attendants will still be based in Australia.

The moves comes as Qantas is poised to this week announce a reduced profit after warning in June that pre-tax profit for 2005-06 would slump 27 per cent to "around $670 million" after restructuring costs.

The moves will be seen as highly provocative by unions, who had been expecting a switch to AWAs and the export of more jobs as part of the airline's cost-cutting regime.

Those fears were confirmed yesterday when Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon revealed that AWAs would be introduced to areas of the Qantas Group after management had concluded the airline needed "a range of industrial instruments".

"We will be still, very much, having our enterprise bargaining agreements with a lot of our people but where we need greater flexibility, where we think it's better utilised, we will be using AWAs," he said.

Mr Dixon also foreshadowed more job losses, responding to suggestions that another 1200 jobs could go by noting the airline would be making "a substantial allocation" for redundancies this year.

"We must continue to change the way we do business and it will involve a further streamlining of our business," he told the Nine Network's Business Sunday.

"We have indicated about 1000 management positions going in the next six to nine months and that will be starting probably in the next two to three weeks. It's just being finalised now."

Mr Dixon refused to detail which Qantas staff would go to AWAs.

But Jetstar confirmed yesterday it would start offering two versions of five-year AWAs to its international cabin crew and customer service managers, or its head flight attendants, from today.

The new agreement will include six weeks annual leave, 10 days sick leave and a guarantee of eight rostered days off per 28-day roster.

The average range of an overall package will be $41,000 to $46,000 a year for cabin crew and $54,000 to $60,000 for customer service managers, with a 3 per cent annual rise over the life of contract. But the Jetstar package is based on a 38-hour week and includes superannuation and "productivity bonuses" for working extra hours, commission on selling food and extra skills such as language.

Qantas flight attendants get a range of allowances, including superannuation, beyond their $47,000 annual base salary that can boost their yearly pay packet by more than $20,000.

"We believe the total package for both AWAs will be in line with the Australian median wage," Jetstar spokesman Simon Westaway said yesterday. "The overall package will be significantly above the mean full-time earnings in what we believe are comparable industries with similar skill sets, such as retail, hoteliers, cafes and restaurants."

Mr Westaway said the component of the salary based on productivity and performance would be based on several measures, including payments for longer hours and commission on in-flight sales of food, drink, entertainment and comfort packs.

Those with an additional language would also be paid a bonus.

"We are offering brand new agreements for new jobs we're creating," he said. "Initially within Australia we'll be creating 200 new flight attendant positions."

He said the airline was also establishing a crew base in Bangkok.

Meanwhile, Mr Dixon downplayed suggestions Qantas should partially float Jetstar. "Right at the moment, that is not a proposal," he said. Noting he did not usually comment on speculation, Mr Dixon said his current aim was to make sure Jetstar and Qantas "are both 100 per cent owned by the current holding company".

But Mr Dixon said he also wanted them to compete aggressively for capital allocated within the group.

============================================

[DEFCON4]

"The overall package will be significantly above the mean full-time earnings in what we believe are comparable industries with similar skill sets, such as retail, hoteliers, cafes and restaurants."
Similar skill set my arse
Safety and emergency procedures,medical responses,defibrillating,child birth,dealing with psychotic episodes from pax...the list goes on.
Similar skill set?!...Westaway needs a good smack in the chops :mad: :mad:

[Apophis]

game over its done already

[Capn Bloggs]

commission on selling food

That'll throw the cat amoung the pidgeons. High speed carts as the trolley-dollies fight for business!

[hoss]

Apophis, do you mean someone has already 'whacked' Westaway?

;)

[Pete Conrad]

Pilots employed with Express Freighters Australia are on AWA's.........

Won't be too far away when the Jetstar pilots are on AWA's...the JPC vote for the widebody addition to their EBA assured that.

[019360]

Yes, and not only is the game effectively over, it all happened live, in real time as seen in daily posts for the last few years here on Pprune, for those with eyes to see....and the AIPA band played on.

[puff]

Why would anyone want to work for an organisation that believes a FAs value is the same as a restaurant worker. Does the restaurant worker have to deal with being away from family, timezone changes, dry cabins etc etc. How much emergency procedures training does a cafe worker have.....are they tested on it often???

I have a friend that drives a bus - ends up with $50k a year, hardly any weekends and in your own bed every night. That JQ package is a joke. Hope Jetstar have a big FA recruitment department, because the gloss will wear thin on 45K a year and they'll leave in droves.....but I guess in the end thats what they want, have them while their fresh and keen, suck all the life out of them make them quit and replace them again.

Welcome to John Howards new world!

[cunninglinguist]

Sorry to rain on your parade Geoffery, the only one that will benefit from frigging AWAs is..............YOU:mad:

[Ichiban]

This is from the Business Sunday transcript, 13th August.

GREEENWOOD: We've seen speculation this week that Jetstar could be floated off as a separate company, if that were even considered, is it one of those situations where you'd like the Qantas holding company to maintain a controlling interest, or would you be prepared to let Jetstar go?

DIXON: No never let — under my leadership we would never let Jetstar go without a major interest being retained by Qantas. Right at the moment, that is not a proposal, I mean that was speculation by a columnist and we usually don't comment on speculations like that but the point about it is my aim at the moment, is to make sure that Jetstar, and Qantas, are both 100 percent owned by the current holding company and that they compete aggressively in the markets that they're in. But I also want them to compete aggressively within the Qantas group for the capital that we allocate. At the moment we've announced, I think we have 65 firm orders coming for the 787's — a new generation aircraft which will be 20 percent lower cost structure than other aircraft, or equivalent aircraft, we've said the first 10 or 15 will go into Jetstar. The truth is, they'd all go into Jetstar if Jetstar was the right vehicle for it. And that's going to be the new world for Qantas.

[ausflying]

Just out of interest, when was the last time anybody here brought a full fare (fully flexible) Qantas ticket as opposed to an el-cheapo Virgin or Jetstar or even Qantas fare?

[max autobrakes]

019360, you might like to add to your quote "The old AIPA" band played on. I believe the new lot are doing their best to recover from previous mischievous.
Yes, and not only is the game effectively over, it all happened live, in real time as seen in daily posts for the last few years here on Pprune, for those with eyes to see....and the AIPA band played on.

[Roger Standby]

The nature of the beast with this industry is that nearly everyone that works in it loves it. Sure, top level management everywhere are trying to screw every last cent out of it, but we still love the environment as a whole.

As with pilots, supply and demand with cabin crew means that wages will continue to drop whether we like it or not. I reckon QF would have no problem replacing there entire FA crews with new members on minimum wage given half the chance. There are enough people out there who would snap up the "prestigious" job as a flight attendant, regardless of the pay or conditions. The only thing stopping management is the potential losses of a mass walk out without having new crews trained to move in.

Same problem with pilots. Too many commercial pilots who will do whatever it takes to remain in the industry they love and have spent a fortune to be a part of.

ATC's no better. Crap EBA, but too sared to say "no".:confused:

[ferris]

If only, Roger...

I think it has to be stated that the 'prestige' you spoke of stemmed largely from the money that used to be available in the industry. All that glamour wears thin after a while (and that's true of ANY job). Sometimes it takes longer for the gloss to wear off, but it inevitably does. What are you left with, then? The T&C's.


Some jobs interest people because they get good money, because they get good benefits, because they love the work. Some jobs in aviation used to have all 3. But if there are none of those things- what is going to generate that prestige?

[Dark Knight]

I recall many, many years ago being warned this was the sort of industrial relations and working conditions a lack of unity would lead too.

No! No! They cried as they stood on the sidelines, many were complicit in their actions whilst others rushed to sell their soul to the company store for mere pieces of silver guided by the dulcet soothing tones of the Silver Budgger!


In the intervening period more and more desperate souls decreed we will work for little shortly to become `We will fly for Food'

Introduced by a Labor Government using armed services & scab labour.

You cannot deny it!


Nor you can blame PM Johhn Howard - happend before his time and by your own hands.

Like it, Lump It and Weep!


DK

[Fliegenmong]

So the new IR Laws & AWA's are not a product of the Howard Government, 'tis news to me DK!


I betcha there are some rather stupid feeling people around right now given it was howard who tied us to this price of petrol when he was treasurer, rising interest rates and draconian IR laws. What you thought Howard was a good guy ??? why 'cos he likes cricket??

The truth is he and his cronies are punishing the people who put him there and now his treatment - full of contempt - basiclly says to me "How effing stupid you lot are - now Me & my boys are gunna wreck your lives because you are idiotic uninformed dumb Australian voters - who only vote because you have to not because you educate yourselves and form any sort of independent and well informed view point!" - channel 9 is on this too I'm sure!!!!! :sad: :rolleyes: :eek: :yuk:

[ausflying]

So the new IR Laws & AWA's are not a product of the Howard Government, 'tis news to me DK!

[Eagleman]

FACT: The miniture manager, A Joystar, gave GD an undertaking that JQ would be the bunny (gnome) for the QF group's introduction of AWA's

FACT: Jetstar (Rohan Crewmeals) has been working with Freehills (G Smith) for months on the AWA's.

[Fliegenmong]

Pardon me AUSFLYING - I totally mis read the sentiment of this thread:confused:

[jaded boiler]

ausflying, your statement "Our IR system after these changes is still the most regulated in the Western World. So they are hardly draconian" is unmitigated balderdash. Do some research before posting so as not to display such profound ignorance. Even the shining beacon of "free market" fundamentalism, the good ol' U S of A, has not enacted legislation as punitive and threatening as howardochet's putrid "work choices".

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

http://www.smh.com.au/news/business/qantas-fare-with-perks-of-jetstar/2006/08/15/1155407809089.html

Hmmm once again we get the much vaunted 40% less cost base drivel.

Fact:QF are cooking the books.

Example: Jetstar take over a domestic route to Darwin. The QF ground staff are asked to quote what it actually costs to turn around a 737. The answer comes up as $1300. They are DIRECTED to charge the Jetstar $1000 for turning around the A320.

Voila, instant 30% saving on ground charges. Only the difference is still charged to Qantas which must bear the cost; it makes the percieved difference actually greater.

You have to ask why? In five years time of course there will be no need to ask. The great Jetstar experiment may well be at an end. But who cares? The aircraft, crews and AWA's will all be in place and ready for a simple repaint job.

Qantas will have put an end to those pesky unions and collective bargaining. You want to fly the 797?!!? How much are you willing to pay to play? You'll take a command by undercutting everyone by 40%?!!? Sign here! You had an incident overseas?!!? Sorry, you are on your own.

:yuk:

[ausflying]

ausflying, your statement "Our IR system after these changes is still the most regulated in the Western World. So they are hardly draconian" is unmitigated balderdash. Do some research before posting so as not to display such profound ignorance. Even the shining beacon of "free market" fundamentalism, the good ol' U S of A, has not enacted legislation as punitive and threatening as howardochet's putrid "work choices".

Jaded, if you think our system is less regulated than the USA then you have rocks in your head! The only guaranteed condition that a worker has there is a minimum wage of something like $2 an hour. :ugh:

[jaded boiler]

Wrong again ausflying, the federally mandated minimum wage in the USA is $5.15 per hour, with individual states having the right to set the minimum wage at higher levels, which a large number do, some significantly so. If a group of employees in the US refuses individual contracts and insists on bargaining collectively with their employer, the employer is legally obliged to do so, unlike the present situation in Australia. Legislation pertaining to industrial action is less onerous with respect to employees in the US when compared with Australia's brave new world. Pattern bargaining and collusion in Australia by groups of employers in a given industry to suppress wages is legal, the same collective action by groups of employees industry wide is not. I could go on, but the old typing finger isn't what it used to be.

One of the government's key justifications of its new IR regime is simplification. This is nonsensical, the new legislation runs to thousands of pages and is inherently extremely complex. The detail in the complexity relates to the myriad of ways in which the bargaining power of employees is eroded.

No other western democracy has enacted legislation which is as degrading and as potentially deeply harmful to the hard won industrial rights, safeguards and remuneration levels of a large proportion of its working population, as Australia.

[BrisBoy]

You are correct, Dark Knight, as to the origins of the current AWA’s. However that does not make them any less vile or sinister than the Individual Contracts they are modelled on that you and I, and more than a few others, politely declined some time ago.

The point has been made a couple of times, but it doesn’t hurt to reinforce it, that those of use who crew and maintain aircraft operate to a very strict set of priorities.
Mr Joyce, to his eternal shame, has demonstrated with his statements that he does not know, or worse, does not care that SAFETY comes before Passenger comfort, Schedule and Economy.
I have two Daughters who work part time in the ares Mr Joyce has identified as having similar ‘skill sets’ (God I hate these idiotic new age management terms).
I have asked my Daughters what emergency procedures training they have received in the event of an abnormality. How long is the expected time for staff to evacuate the restaurant in the event of a fire? What instructions do they give in relation to emergency lighting in the event visibility is reduced due to heavy smoke? How do they handle people who one minute are enjoying a meal and the next have to obey commands that are designed to save their lives?
My Daughters just give that, you’re not a bad bloke Dad, but WTF are you talking about!!!?, look, shake their heads and answer the telephone that seems to never stop ringing or on the odd occasions that I do answer it, be for me.

Mr Joyce, Flight Attendants are there to ensure the safety of their passengers and crew. This is what they are paid for. Everything else is icing on the cake.
For you to not only fail to acknowledge that, but completely misrepresent their area of expertise, is an absolute disgrace and, as I mentioned before, you should be utterly ashamed of yourself.

I believe that the two worst Prime Ministers our country has had have both been identified in this thread.
It brings a small smile to my face to think that the second has implemented the policy of the first whilst being supposedly politically diametrically opposed.
This smile is soon wiped away when I think that my children have to make their way in an Australia that resembles little the hopes, dreams and ideals that she was founded upon.

[qcc2]

Australia's biggest airline Qantas will create a new air freight business, it announced today.

Express Freighters Australia will be a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas, the company's statement to the stock exchange said.

It will begin in October with one leased Boeing 737-300 aircraft. Qantas said the company would begin with four pilots, growing to 40 with another three aircraft to be added by March next year.

Qantas chief executive officer Geoff Dixon said Express Freighters Australia had already employed pilots under Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs).

"The pilots' AWAs have pay rates and conditions in line with industry standards for freighter pilots," Mr Dixon said.

Shares in Qantas were up two cents, or 0.6 per cent, to $3.12 in recent trade.

theage.com.au

[qcc2]

Australia's biggest airline Qantas will create a new air freight business, it announced today.
Express Freighters Australia will be a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas, the company's statement to the stock exchange said.
It will begin in October with one leased Boeing 737-300 aircraft. Qantas said the company would begin with four pilots, growing to 40 with another three aircraft to be added by March next year.
Qantas chief executive officer Geoff Dixon said Express Freighters Australia had already employed pilots under Australian Workplace Agreements (AWAs).
"The pilots' AWAs have pay rates and conditions in line with industry standards for freighter pilots," Mr Dixon said.
Shares in Qantas were up two cents, or 0.6 per cent, to $3.12 in recent trade.
theage.com.au

[Buster Hyman]

Becoming a pilot with us ...
At Express Freighters Australia we look for crew who are professional, hardworking, safety conscious, have good interpersonal skills, and are 'team players'.
If this sound like you and you meet the below criteria, we look forward to receiving your application.
Licences/Ratings:

Captains - a valid Australian ATPL
First Officers - a valid Australian ATPL
Valid Class 1 Medical.
Multi-Engine Instrument Rating.
737-300 Type Rating (Preferred).Minimum Experience:
Direct Entry Captain Positions:

Total Time - 5000 hours.
Command Time > 40,000kg: 3000 hours.First Officer Positions:

Total Time - 3000 hours.
Multi-Engine Time - 1500 hours.Other:
Australian or New Zealand citizenship or permanent residency.

[surfside6]

I dont have to sign an AWA.
I`ve found out that much.
So what happens if I don`t?
Am I immediately terminated or demoted?
Been to all the web sites I can find..Can`t find an answer
Anybody help?:confused: :confused:

[murgatroid]

surf,

This is my understanding - so probably wrong!

You cannot be forced off a certified agreement (EBA) onto an AWA.

New starters can be employed straight onto an AWA, regardless of whether current employees are on an EBA.

The single biggest problem is when your EBA expires. If you entered another EBA since the new laws started, when that EBA expires - the employer can after 90 days, withdraw and revert you back to 4 or 5 very basic conditions and salary - something like $25k pa. Alternatively they can offer you an AWA. That this is allowed under these laws is absolutely appalling. A sad fact is that this is not even understood by some MP's who passed this legislation. There is no no-disadvantage test.

If you do not enter a new EBA (since the new laws), when your current EBA expires, you can stay on it indefinately. You will never get a pay rise though.

It makes it very difficult for anyone who's EBA expires from now (March) on. Do you risk entering a new one when at the end of the new EBA you may get completely screwed.

Or do you say stuff it, I'll (if the other guys vote the same) just continue under my just expired EBA; and though never get another payrise, at least my long won conditions will remain ?

Given the current management style at QF, I know which option I'd choose.

Another thing I have no idea about is if you have some guys on AWA's and some still under EBA conditions? How is seniority etc determined for rostering and promotion?

I suspect that if QF offer AWA's to mainline with the 787, they will initially offer them with quite good dollars to encourage guys out of EBA's. Then when the AWA expires in 5yrs, they'll say sorry - this is your new deal, take it or you are no longer required.

If no one wants to go to an AWA? A great reason to start forced redundancy for operational reasons, whilst J* AWA's do the wet lease.
Even further on - son of J* will undercut J* using exactly the same tactics except it may be even easier as AWA's will have little redundnacy clauses in them.

One more thing, can't see too many EBA's getting voted up from now. Though this will probably again favour the company "QF pilots reject 10% pay rise" (only because in 2 years they will be completely F^%$*&)

Very scary stuff.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

There has been some more info arrive regarding whether or not you would be subject to the 25K pay rate should a company cancel an EBA. It may not be the case. What may happen is that you would then go the the "Fair Pay Commision" (said with straight face) and they would determine what your pay rate would be.

God knows what methodology they would use.

That is one of the problems with these new "simplified" laws. The regulations are almost 1000 pages long.

[murgatroid]

Thanks Borg,

Given the QF longhaul certified agreement is probably 1000 pages long, I'm sure the fair pay dood would probably give you a bit more than 25k. The rest of your conditions however, will be written on a post-it note.

[puff]

"The pilots' AWAs have pay rates and conditions in line with industry standards for freighter pilots," Mr Dixon said.
theage.com.au

Whats the industry standard in freighter pilots - GAM, Pelair and Je*craft?

Lets add something similar to Mr Joyces comments in relation to the Jetstar EBA...
"The overall package will be significantly above the mean full-time earnings in what we believe are comparable industries with similar skill sets, such as truck drivers, forklift drivers and mail sorters."

[Wirraway]

Thurs "The Australian"

Qantas, pilots set for clash
Steve Creedy, Aviation writer
August 17, 2006

QANTAS is heading for a showdown with pilots after launching another subsidiary using Australian Workplace Agreements.
Qantas's move to set up a domestic freight subsidiary, Express Freighters Australia, has angered the Australian and International Pilots Association (AIPA), which is already suffering under what it considers a wage freeze for domestic pilots.

Qantas chief executive Geoff Dixon announced yesterday that Express Freighters, a wholly owned subsidiary, would lease B737-300 aircraft including crew to Australian Air Express under a 12-year contract.

Mr Dixon said Express Freighters had already employed pilots under AWAs for the start up of the new business.

He said the new business would not only provide increased revenue but employment for pilots and additional work for Qantas engineers.

"The pilots' AWAs have pay rates and conditions in line with industry standards for freighter pilots," he said.

"Growing our freight operations is a core strategy for the Qantas Group, aimed at diversifying and strengthening our revenue base.

"Express will use former Qantas 737s, being converted to freighters at the airline's Avalon maintenance base."

The decision to use AWAs comes after Mr Dixon flagged their use in parts of the group on Sunday and Jetstar International announced it would be putting international flight attendants on the contracts.

Qantas told AIPA this week that domestic pilots would be offered a 3 per cent cash payment instead of a pay rise.

"On the one hand the company is crying poor, instigating a pay freeze, threatening to spread AWAs and establishing internal competition through Jetstar to drive wages and conditions down," said AIPA general manager Peter Somerville.

"At the same time, they are telling the market that they have made what analysts predict will be a $500 million profit and (are) increasing the package to top executives by more than $12 million."

Qantas is today expected to reveal a reduced profit after warning in June that pre-tax profit would slump 27 per cent to "around $670 million" after restructuring costs.

Meanwhile, Virgin Blue announced yesterday that Hawaiian Airlines would be its first US partner for its Velocity loyalty program. Other partners are Emirates and Virgin Atlantic.

===============================================

[murgatroid]

Lets hope the freighter AWA has the company standard AWA termination clause (ala Geoffs last AWA):

"37.2 months FAR plus $500,000"

Total GD was paid upon the termination of his just ended contract $7.76million.

Oh, and paid as superannuation so the taxman probably won't see much, if any of it.

[neville_nobody]

"The pilots' AWAs have pay rates and conditions in line with industry standards for freighter pilots," he said.

I wonder if Geoff knows how much DHL, Fedex, Airborne Express and UPS pay their pilots!! :E Some of the highest paid pilots in the world work in Freight!! I guess what Geoff means is that it will be comparable to industry standard in China. But of course his salary is comparable to the CEO of Fedex.

Some quick calculations reveal that the "industry standard" is at Jetstar/Virgin Levels by about the 4th year in a company!! Good luck to those going in for their AWA negotiations. Might want to arm yourselves with some figures before you negotiate.

[Johhny Utah]

The truly worrying thing is that Dixon IS nearly earning as much as the CEO of FEDEX - which is especially concerning if you compare & contrast the time periods that they have been at the helm, as well as the growth of the company during that time; not to forget the respective holdings each of them have in their company, and the final straw - Frederick Smith CREATED Fedex!!!

From Forbes.com CEO Compensation: (http://www.forbes.com/lists/2006/12/44U5.html) Frederick W Smith
Total Compensation
$8.67 mil (#164)

5-Year Compensation Total
$54.22 mil

Frederick W Smith has been CEO of FedEx (FDX) for 35 years. Mr. Smith has been with the company for 35 years and is the company's founder.The 61 year old executive ranks 4 within Transportation

Education
College: Yale BA '66
Graduate School: NA


It's also worth noting that Fred Smith has over US$2Bn worth of Fedex shares - and has been the company founder/CEO for the last 35 years

[argus.moon]

Introduction of AWAs...wages go down
Interest rates up.....disposable income goes down(Because of ill timed tax cuts..inflationary)
Petrol goes up(Govt Tax)disposable income comes down.
Surprise surprise consumer confidence experiences the biggest downward slide in 17 years.
All this stuff is anti cyclical.
Consumers drive the economy.
Rattle them and consumption goes down and axiomatically inventories increase and then so does unemployment.
Then comes ....you guessed..... it a recession
Thank you Lying little Johnny you are my hero.
If there is a hell for rectums I hope Dixon and Howard keep each other company in it.
They both should employ food tasters/testers.:ouch: :ouch:

[Yusef Danet]

but what I really want to hear is... how much is the 733 freighter AWA worth? And I note there was no (stated) requirement for a type rating. Will existing 727 crew have to pay for their 733 rating if they follow the parcels over to the twin?

[altocu]

What I want to know is, given all this hype of "business segmentation"...
How much is Express Freighters paying Qantas for the lease/purchase of these aircraft? In a simlilar vein, what is Jetstar paying for the 2 year lease of the four A330-200s? :mad:

[max autobrakes]

How's this for a bit of bar room banter.
I think it actually may have some legs, god help us.
In just about every forum you care to name Old Geoff ,2 secretaries pregnant, Dixon has stated that the company must achieve a 12% return on capital in order to survive.
Well how's this for a bummer concept.
If you thought the JetStar Agreement was the low tide mark for staff, think again.
On average JetStar is paying 20% less than Qantas.
Qantas' wage bill is appx $3.4 Billion.
So 20% of that is some $680 Million dollars straight onto the bottom line if Dixon and his merry band of Judas' can get us onto JetStar type conditions.
Still does not add up to a 12% return, so where does the remaining savings come from?
Well the cupboards are quite bare now ,so you guessed it,JetStar terms and conditions will not stay as the "low tide " mark.
I guess worse may be expected.
Where's the number for that trucking firm Mav? :mad:

Here's some more food for thought


Qantas and Jetstar don't mix
Elizabeth Knight
August 9, 2006

IF GEOFF DIXON at Qantas really wants to gouge the costs out of his business and maintain growth, he is going to have to devise a plan to split the company in two: Qantas and Jetstar.

In order to achieve his expansion ambitions, both airline brands will need to be housed separately - in two stockmarket vehicles.

There will need to be some affiliation through some common ownership - maybe via a parent company which retains a controlling stake in Jetstar - so synergies can be maintained and Dixon can retain his job as puppeteer.

While the Qantas board might view this as far too radical a move, the fact is higher fuel prices are here to stay and the company needs restructuring.

Cost-cutting alone does not ensure growth and spinning off Jetstar would provide the company with some handy extra capital for future expansion, most probably into freight.

Indeed, Qantas's chief financial officer, Peter Gregg, and its chairwoman, Margaret Jackson, have both been on the hustings in the past couple of weeks highlighting the financial challenges Qantas faces in this new environment of high fuel costs.

Gregg went so far as to say that the company has identified $1.2 billion of savings on top of what had already been planned. He outlined a series of strategies such as Jetstar's international expansion, changes in engineering maintenance, restructuring of catering, international fare simplification and online bookings.

It's a good start but it's not enough to offset the fuel price rise that Jackson predicted would be $3.9 billion more in 2006-07 than in 2002-03.

Dixon has done a mammoth job cutting costs during this period. Whether you view this as a good or a bad thing depends on whether you are a shareholder or an employee.

Much of the work has been done through industrial relations. To achieve such a large change in wage rates and work practices, the business has had to develop a new low-cost airline with a low-cost base, Jetstar.

This may have cannibalised its mainline Qantas domestic airline but that was the plan. Transferring the low-fare-paying travellers to an airline with a cheaper operating structure seemed like a radical way to overcome a wage and work practices problem. It was.

Qantas is now extending this model to its international business. Cheap Jetstar flights to offshore destinations make just as much sense, as long as they are executed effectively.

But all these strategies have been factored into the original cost-savings estimates.

Further migration to Jetstar has to be achieved and structural separation is one way to get the outcome.

Meanwhile, Qantas has already made it clear that expanding its freight business will be one leg of its growth strategy. And, as we are on the verge of a major upheaval in this market as a result of the successful takeover by Toll Holdings of Patrick Corp, it is only a matter of time before Qantas makes it clear how it is going to feature in these strategic developments.

Next week Qantas will announce its full-year earnings and, hopefully, provide some clarity on how it's going to tackle the huge challenge of maintaining or improving its earnings.

Right now the company does not meet its cost of capital and, although successful when compared with other airlines, it is not the sort of investment that can be favourably compared with many Australian industrial companies. But these non-airline companies are the ones with which Qantas is competing for capital.

Qantas has staged a highly successful political campaign to protect the lucrative international routes it dominates but it can't rely on this kind of nationalism forever.

The cost of fuel is disabling the business and it needs CPR (cardiopulmonary resuscitation). Shifting maintenance and improving catering won't do it, nor will moving more heavily into the freight business. Qantas has to take big steps to address a structural change in its cost base.

The management and board have shown themselves willing to take large steps in the past to address the issue of legacy costs and perhaps next week we may see if they still have the nerve.

Further migration to Jetstar has to be achieved and structural separation is one way to get the outcome.

Meanwhile, Qantas has already made it clear that expanding its freight business will be one leg of its growth strategy. And, as we are on the verge of a major upheaval in this market as a result of the successful takeover by Toll Holdings of Patrick Corp, it is only a matter of time before Qantas makes it clear how it is going to feature in these strategic developments.

[Eagleman]

Qantas profit dives – but Airbus helps the bottom line

Michael Pascoe writes:

Never mind expanding the freight business, Qantas was saved from an even sharper profit plunge by its ability to make money out of Airbus running late on delivering the A380.

Ravaged by an $1.1 billion jump in its fuel bill (partly offset by $282 million in hedging profit), the Roo's net profit was down 30% (http://www.news.com.au/business/story/0,23636,20157614-462,00.html) to $480 million. But that was after picking up $104 million in liquidated damages from Airbus. If the French knew how to build a plane on time, the Qantas net profit would have been down about 40%. (If only they had ordered more than 12 A380s... wonder if they could get the same sort of deal if they put their name down for some of those joint strike fighters…)

The commentary (http://www.asx.com.au/asx/statistics/announcementSearch.do?method=searchByCode&issuerCode=QAN&timeFrameSearchType=D&releasedDuringCode=T) from CEO Dixon was more of the same – more cost cutting, more fuel bill increases, more jobs to go, more rationalisation, AWAs where they'll help etc. The management and support staff class will be feeling particularly nervous with 1,000 of them scheduled to disappear. Qantas's total workforce is about 38,000.

As always when such big management cleanouts are announced, one is left wondering if those 1,000 had been doing anything of value. If not, Dixon and top management should surrender all their previous bonuses. If they had been adding value though, one is left wondering how their jobs will be without them, or what will go missing from Qantas when they depart.

There's still no hint of dealing with Qantas's biggest percentage cost disadvantage compared with its main competitors – the pay packets of the CEO, CFO and a few other top executives

[airbusa330]

Can someone explain what is an AWA?Is it along the lines of a easier way to have a watered down contracts with no real protection etc?Sorry I have been away for a while now.
Cheers,

[rescue 1]

Directanywhere, I'm not an industrial expert, so my knowledge is limited to what I have read.

AWA - you can and should employ a bargaining agent to work with you once offered employment under an AWA to "negotiate" your terms and conditions of employment.

Industrial coverage - I was of the belief that an industrial organization can (and should??) seek coverage of workers employed under an AWA should that be the wish of the employees?? Hence the AWA is no more??

[U.K. SUBS.]

DA and Rescue

Thank you for spelling out and providing links to this EXTREME legislation. One question i have is that, does the 38 hours of work mean that it is per week and not spread over a period of say a fortnight or a month? So a pilots duty time can be modified to suit the legislation and likewise an engineers work time can be modified to suit turnarounds and quiet times. Just a thought that's all.

[Mr. Boeing]

It's interesting discussing this issue on overnights as to how many one eyed Liberal voters that have never voted Labor before will be next time around. If this is a reflection on how the conservative voters in society are thinking, I think the Liberal's may well have a major problem.

[Fliegenmong]

Direct anywhere & Argus.moon - with you all the way. Very interesting bit about the US industrial specialists - Mr Boeing I do so very much you are right
I am deeply concerned for my childrens future. And yet what does the Labour party do to capitalise on this - sweet FA really. The fact that not a word about the new IR laws not going far enough from the Business council of Aust should also start alarm bells ringing, does the average Joe mug aussie punter have any real idea - alas no I would suggest:ugh: . One hopes a special spot in hell is reserved for lil johnny and his cronies in big business, and all the other liberal party mates, like reith who started off with EBAs years ago, moore-wilton, smarmy abbott, et all. one can not bring ones self to post their names with capitals, tis only fitting given the contempt with which they treat us.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[Buster Hyman]

Okay. Hand up time. I'm one of those "never voted Labour" types too. Whilst there was certainly room for reform, the reform should only have levelled out the playing field. This legislation has skewed it in the opposite direction.

During a time when we see huge financial incentives for CEO's who can squeeze the $$$ out of the workforce, there is a need for balance, otherwise we will see the rise of an "Us & Them" mentality. It already exists in the USA and, after seeing how people at the lower end of the food chain struggle there, we do not want that here!

If Beasley can get his act together & string some coherent policies up, he can have my vote. Otherwise, I'll be looking for an independant. (Greens, Democrats? I'd sooner vote for Krusty the clown!)

[U.K. SUBS.]

I wonder if winston howard would have the ticker to take a good long hard look at what this legislation will do for our prosperity.

The ever growing gulf between the haves and have nots.

The imposition of a lack of choice in how you can negotiate with your employer. I really do feel for those too timid to stick up for themselves and are forbidden to have representation.

To quote another doyen of conservatism. Mao se Thatcher vs Neil Kinnock.

" Of course the honourable gentleman does not like choice he is a socialist, a krypto communist"

[Fliegenmong]

And something else that may slip past, Beasley could well say he'll tear up the legislation, not if the senate reamins the same!! - yet does this message get through. If you have not already guessed johnny will not get mine (vote) but these Labour galahs, how many would big Kim like to lose, get some policies together, and give that Rudd fellow a go, he seems very well articulated and genuine

[ausflying]

If this is a reflection on how the conservative voters in society are thinking, I think the Liberal's may well have a major problem.

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Thankyou for the insight Mr. Howard.

[surfside6]

26 years old and just slightly right of Mussolini.
:confused:

[ausflying]

26 years old and just slightly right of Mussolini.
:confused:

[argus.moon]

He said only slightly to the right.

[jaded boiler]

ausflying, from what source have you deemed that more Australians are working for themselves, than are union members?

The ACTU, the Labor Party, nor any other organisation has claimed that "work choices" would, overnight, result in mass sackings.

This legislation will, however, inevitably lead to the degradation of the wages, terms and conditions of the majority of working people, but it is also slow-burning. It was specifically designed to be such, so as not to imperil the hegemony of the howard party.

Your willful ignorance of facts, combined with blind ideological pandering to a political party that has not been able to remain true to is founding philosophies, does not form the basis of a sound argument.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Ausflying, I have a niece who was summarily sacked from her job last week. The supposed offence was trivial in the extreme and she wasn't a union member either. Her boss was a petty tyrant who seemed to relish the power the new laws gave him... no warnings.. no counselling.. nothing... your gone!

The blame for this as far as she is concerned, her friends, parents and extended family as well, has been placed squarely on the new IR laws.

We are going to hear more of this kind of thing. Try telling backbench Liberal MP's in marginal electorates that this issue is not rating. They will tell you a different story.

Australians have shown time and time again that they want practical government, not ideology. These laws are ideologically driven. The public will make Howard pay.

[Fliegenmong]

Ausflying "We are so much worse off now than ten years ago"
Actually mate where I was working ten yrs ago they are worse off!! Thank God I was fortunate enough to get out when I did, but you can't keep running forever.
Jaded boiler - your last paragraph - very well done:D

[ausflying]

Actually mate where I was working ten yrs ago they are worse off!! Thank God I was fortunate enough to get out when I did, but you can't keep running forever.

[ausflying]

Actually mate where I was working ten yrs ago they are worse off!! Thank God I was fortunate enough to get out when I did, but you can't keep running forever.

What a stupid statement, nobody can/would/should claim that EVERY SINGLE person in this country is better off than they were ten years ago! but on average, prosperity has increased greatly over the past ten years. Need evidence? Look at the number of new cars being sold, The number of people with shares, the number of people with investment properties, the average australian wage. If you dont think that overall australians are doing better now than they were ten years ago then you must be living with the fairies at the bottom of the garden.

[ausflying]

We are going to hear more of this kind of thing. Try telling backbench Liberal MP's in marginal electorates that this issue is not rating. They will tell you a different story.

[Fliegenmong]

Ausflying the average Aust wage is utter BS, artifically inflated by those at the top, Just the same way that if you are employed for 1 hour a week you are considered employed:mad:

[ausflying]

Ausflying the average Aust wage is utter BS, artifically inflated by those at the top, Just the same way that if you are employed for 1 hour a week you are considered employed:mad

[prunezeuss]

Ausflying
Its obvious that you still live at home with Mommy and Daddy and have little contact with reality

[B A Lert]

.....The public will make Howard pay.....

Bring it on...can't wait to see the day. Apart from his IR laws, how much have we lost as Telstra shareholders as the share price has plummeted as a result of his 'policies'? Did he say that the Telstra share price under his government would always be lower than it was under a Labor guvmint?? (not as funny as it sounds!!)

The really sad thing about Howard going down is that he will continue to live like a lord (at least not in Kirribili) with his mega dollar pension, taxpayer funded office, cars and transport until the ba$tard falls off his perch.:yuk: :yuk: :yuk:

[ausflying]

Ausflying
Its obvious that you still live at home with Mommy and Daddy and have little contact with reality

[jaded boiler]

Time to be enlightened ausflying.

Remember the old adage, "There are lies, damn lies, and then there are statistics". You appear to have seized upon data that has been gleefully bandied about by that bastion of impartiality, the Institute of Public Affairs, to push its ideological agenda. That being that 1.9 million Australians are self-employed, whilst only 1.8 million Australians are members of a union. However, these numbers in isolation do not tell the whole story.

The mathematical flaw in using the simple comparison of these two figures in order to bolster an argument, is that the numerical samples are not mutually exclusive, that is, a significant number of the self-employed also belong to unions (not personal opinion, ABS data). A large proportion of self-employed people are classed as such, by reason of the fact that they act as independent contractors, not necessarily through personal choice, but often by being presented with no alternative by unscrupulous employers seeking to minimise or eradicate their legal obligations to employees. When then comparing the number of people who belong to unions, as against the number of self-employed people who do not belong to unions, the resultant ratio is radically different.

There has been a large body of work undertaken by labour market economists into the effects of the introduction of AWAs, and associated legislation. Try this for starters to whet your appetite www.econ.usyd.edu.au/download.php?id=4301 (http://www.econ.usyd.edu.au/download.php?id=4301). Overwhelmingly, empirical and projected outcomes with respect to the wages and conditions of most employees are negative. Freedom of information requests to access study papers the government commissioned when framing work choices have been refused as "not being in the public interest".

With regard to opinion polls, consider this quote from a recent speech on work choices, given to a small cheer squad of like-minded luvvies, by one of the luminaries of the political party that you seem to have such a blinkered adoration for, one senator Nick Minchin, "Poll after poll demonstrated that the Australian people don't agree at all with anything we're doing on this - we have minority support for what we're doing".

[JapJok]

Defcon4, get a grip of yourself, or is that the problem, you already have?

Really...

Safety and emergency procedures,medical responses,defibrillating,child birth,dealing with psychotic episodes from pax...the list goes on.
Similar skill set?!...Westaway needs a good smack in the chops

OK, I'll agree with the safety and emergency,but the rest??? Morel like psychotic episodes from FA's!

[Machinegun Fellatio]

JaPJoK
Don`t pilots in this part of the world have enough problems without needing to resort to taking potshots at CC?....kuso baka jijii...a japanese expression I am sure you get to hear a lot...and probably from Japanese girls...cibi chin chin I am sure would be another.

[Pappa Smurf]

Ive been on an AWA for 10 years now-no problems so far.
I didnt have to sign and a lot of union die-hards didnt,not to start with,but eventually either left or signed on.
If wages and conditions were the same then not many would have signed but we got the carrot dangled with about 10% more money.
If your currently employed by a company all goes along normal.

You will find all AWA,s offered are the same--not going in one by one to try and negotiate a wage.

This is for new employees,especially ones with experience and multi skilling.
If the market is flooded then it will be min. starting wage,like it or lump it.
The minimum being what is currently the starting wage.

Not a 100% sure but i think a 4th year AME is on more than a 1st year one.Dont know how aircrew etc work.

as an example a 4th year AME jumps ship for another mob on an equal pay scale.His AWA offered will be of a 1st year AME.He can accept or negotiate.

Being a large company with wages vaying so much they may have different levels.
stratum 1 for the lowest earners-base salary ?
up the straum 4 for pilots--base salary ?

Base salary is 8-5 mon to fri workers
then the add ons---weekend rosters ,12 hour shifts,diiferent type ratings etc

In other words ,what ya get now.
They will throw in a few sneakies,probably the likes of if a plane is 1 hour late landing then you dont get paid for it but will probably have an allowance for such things that some will gain on and others will lose--luck of the draw.

Read it ,get advise from a lawyer.

From a company point of view they dont have to worry about strikes etc which qantas dont have many anyway.
Another advantage for them is timekeeping--not working out hours worked ,benefits etc ,just sending out your monthly cheque as per your agreement.
So poor old timekeeping will get rid of about 80% of personel.

Time will tell i suppose

[DEFCON4]

The problem with AWAs is trying to locate information
Am I compelled to sign one?
When my EBA expires can I elect to maintain the same T&Cs?
Can I employ an advocate to act on my behalf?
Do I have any redress whatsover?
Do I just have to cop it all?.
If so, am I still really living in a free and democratic Australia?
Or am I just bloody kidding myself? :{ :{

[speedbirdhouse]

Quote-

"If so, am I still really living in a free and democratic Australia?
Or am I just bloody kidding myself?"

--------------

Can you see the link between the three following words?

Fascist, johnny, jackboot.:mad: :mad: :mad:

[argus.moon]

Note. Does not play well with others
Cannot understand or accommodate any point of view other than his/her own
Derives some form of joy from being a contrarian
EQ index zero
A likely failed commercial pilot wannabe

[Point0Five]

A likely failed pilot wannabe

You've certainly done your research :ok:

I think that PAF has made it quite clear that his frozos are consumed in the cockpit. :E

[jaded boiler]

You obviously haven't associated with too many pilots in your time Frozo.

Most of the ones I've known or met over the years have had politically conservative leanings. Now that a government has introduced poor legislation, some seem to be doing what bright, pragmatic people do when presented with a different set of circumstances, they change their mind.

[max autobrakes]

dear Pass-A-Furball,
I think you will find if you did a Vox Pop on pilots in Qantas ,most would be card carrying Liberals.
However thanks to the nexus between Geoff Dixon, the Australian Business Council,little Johnny and the WorkChoices Act you have a large group of people seriously contemplating where their vote in the next Federal election will produce the best dividends, and it aint with their traditional party. Hence the alignment with the ACTU and other Qantas Unions and the tone of many other posts on this forum.

[captaindejavu]

Max,

You are sssooooooo right, on ALL counts !!!

[ferris]

PAF
How is the economy doing since this legislation was brought in??
That, right there, is exactly the problem.
As soon as you fall into the ideology of thinking that "if the economy is OK, then there is nothing else to worry about", you start down a (very yankee) path that a lot of Australians don't particularly care for. When people, on this forum, who may not particularly care about workchoices and how it relates to them, are talking about how it is affecting those without leverage ie. their kids, it might start sinking in about how deep the revulsion out there is.
BTW- The "economy" was doing quite well before this legislation was brought in.

[jetjockey7]

Q.Why do we need/require AWAs?
A.To create employment
But we have almost full employment.Indeed many parts of the economy are constrained by a scarcity of labour.
Market forces determine the cost of a commodity
High demand+ scarcity=increase in cost.Therefore wages should be going up.
AWAs =a decrease in wages= a decrease in demand= an economic contraction.
Couple this with record levels of debt and increasing interest rates+the high cost of fuel...Houston we have a problem.
Is there something I am missing?
This is not winstonomics..this is unsound ideology.:= :=

[QFinsider]

I have a tertiary education, outside aviation, I have worked in and run my own business......

So other than being a public serpent what else have you done PAF? (perhaps an ADFA degree too, in the highly competitve world of Canberra)......

Just what the world needs more drain on the public purse.
For those of us in the real world, who derive our income from private sources workchoices(or lack of it) represents a real risk to our families, based solidly on rhetoric derived from right wing think tanks living in Canberra.....And by the way I was "right wing" until I realised that it doesn't survive the real world......

[jaded boiler]

Frozo, I don't remember claiming to be a member of a group that was bright and pragmatic.

I do make the following claims; I don't work for Qantas, I have tertiary qualifications, I still consider myself a swinging voter, much of the time I'm not as bright or pragmatic as I'd like to be, and, oh I have a bit of a gammy knee.

Nice quote of mine you've dug up, shame you didn't place it in context; a tongue in cheek response to Sunfish after he'd been off his medication and started referring to Qantas's entire workforce using a word that begins with "c". Qantas does seem to be prospering, and has done so without being able to resort to extreme IR practices, so why the need all of a sudden to threaten to club its workforce into submission using the newly minted blunt instrument of work choices? Its employees probably aren't eating dog food either, then again none of them have yet been exposed to the consequences resulting from the expiration of an EBA that had been ratified subsequent to March 28 2006.

The recurring theme of the boosters of work choices on this forum is that if you haven't been arbitrarily sacked or had your wages slashed to subsistence level since the laws took effect, you have no legitimate cause for concern or complaint. Furthermore, anyone expressing well-founded trepidation as to the implications of this punitive and unfair legislation is painted as uneducated and economically illiterate. A group of individuals expressing their dismay, as more and more of the legislation's nastier aspects come to light, is brushed aside as an "online Labor Party conference" or "left wing advertisement".

Frozo, I might be misinterpreting a feeble attempt at sarcasm, or just poor expression, but you seem to infer that being a pilot places you politically to the left of Ho Chi Minh. I'd hazard a bet that the crew rooms of Qantas, Virgin and Jetstar are hardly hotbeds of radical, doctrinaire Marxism. You claim to be a pilot, and by your own admission do not associate with fellow pilots. How then are you able to make the sneering generalisation that pilot licence holders are without qualification in finance and economics, and left wing?

Is it beyond your comprehension that a lot of the financial and macro-economic analysis being squirted about these parts is just, well, right? You seem unable to countenance any statement or argument that conflicts with your apparent hard-right conservatism, and those who disagree with you are impugned and dismissed as lacking tertiary qualification, and thus unable to make valid criticism.

The words of economist John Kenneth Galbraith seem apt in present day Australia, "The modern conservative is engaged in one of man's oldest exercises in moral philosophy; that is, the search for a superior moral justification for selfishness".

[company_spy]

Love of the business hey.
If you think anyone with an ounce of credability, besides the ones sitting snugly in the laps of management, will work on and sign out planes at 4am on a sunday morning for less than 80k should have their heads read. And this is the Engineer with a couple of licenses, its more like 65k for the first license.
And when the lap dogs put their hands up to do training on new advanced aircraft for no payment will be no good anyway because if they move away from their snug positions someone else will slip into the void they have left and do a better leg warming job, so these people can't afford move away.
The average motor mechanic is earning 45-65k a year with maybe a few hours on saturday and at home all nights.And whats his biggest problem, my car you fixed is pulling a little to the left. No MEDA reports,QA and CASA investigations, never being stood down for discrepincies.
Bring on the AWA's, import the thousands of cheap workers Asia has to offer to maintain our 380's and 787's, and watch the airline game collapse by 2010-2015.

[sonhouse]

AWAs are the construct of a Business to present individuals in a closed forum a document of employment that they singularly must make a decision on.
The individual may invite an advocate to assist them on the negotiation however both are to remain silent on the content lest they fall foul of the WC laws that will find them in trouble.
Most AWAs are no doubt patterned therefore a large group will find very little difference between one anothers Agreement of Employment.
Rather then a large group be presented with a deal that can be openly discussed by the collective minds of many AWAs have isolated thought to the iindividual.
Unionism is founded on the collective agreement and AWAs are founded on the one.
Many if not all contract managers are presented each time they negotiate for job conditions and salary an AWA that is patterned on their type job to either reduce or enhance the salary they expect.
Applying the same rules how come we know the conditions and salary of their AWAs?

83BS Identity of parties to AWAs not to be disclosed
13 (1) A person commits an offence if:
14 (a) the person discloses information; and
15 (b) the information is protected information; and
16 (c) the discloser has reasonable grounds to believe that the
17 information will identify another person as being, or having
18 been, a party to an AWA; and
19 (d) the disclosure is not made by the discloser in the course of
20 performing functions or duties as a workplace agreement
21 official; and
22 (e) the disclosure is not required or permitted by this Act, by
23 another Act, by regulations made for the purposes of another
24 provision of this Act or by regulations made for the purposes
25 of another Act; and
26 (f) the person whose identity is disclosed has not, in writing,
27 authorised the disclosure.
28 Penalty: Imprisonment for 6 months.

Maybe the Rules are different for Managers?

[sonhouse]

My point regarding pattern individual bargaining, that WC laws strives to cease among the workforce, is, how come the management types can set a datum for their minimum salary insisting that a Manager of a certain level from such and such company receives X for his/her salary for doing X.
Under WC if workers were to reveal this info they would be found in breach of the law.
Why are Managers able to argy bargy their individual worth without recrimination?