Foiled airline bomb plan - Well Done!

[brickhistory]

Big 'thumb's up' to the UK intel/security/law enforcement folks for foiling the plans of some SOBs who want to take the world back to the 12th century.


Thanks guys! :ok:

[SASless]

Perhaps this was the August 22nd cataclysmic event that was being rumoured about?

Fully agreed....hand salute!

May they continue to do good work.

[allan907]

Heard that they'd nicked 21 of them - all indigenous Brits! Perhaps they should smear them with bacon fat before hanging them. Might cause the rest of them to think a bit.

[Roadtrip]

Well done, indeed!

Congrats again go to the Brits. As always, first rate police work and intelligence.

I'm hoping the muslim community was instrumental in exposing these mass murderers. They themselves need to cut out the fanatic fundamentalist cancer that is consuming their culture and and poisoning the moral fiber of their youth.

[Lon More]

US aircraft reportedly targeted. Extradite the :mad: , as under-wing stores

[EESDL]

will be interesting to see how many of the 'arrested' will have to be released because of 'insufficient' evidence etc etc

[Pureteenlard]

Heard that they'd nicked 21 of them - all indigenous Brits! Perhaps they should smear them with bacon fat before hanging them. Might cause the rest of them to think a bit.
Nope. They need treating a all other criminals are. They aren't martyrs, freedom fighters, political prisoners or anything other than thugs and they should be treated as such.
And no seperation in prison either. Treat them just like anyone else convicted of attempted murder . . . assuming they are convicted, of course.

[West Coast]

Plenty of room at Gitmo. I just read the thread about this elsewhere on pprune. Stunned by the number of whiners.

[sense1]

I want to add my voice to the praise that the security services are recieving for what is a huge success on their part! Well done to all of those people and organisations involved.

If those evil wa:mad: ers had indeed achieved their aim of getting devices on some passenger planes, this would have been a very dark day.

It appears that these terrorists are getting ever more sophisticated and imaginitive - chemical explosives in sun cream, toothpaste tubes and drinks containers (all what I have just been listening to on the BBC).

This shows how well our security services have done in detecting and defeating this latest plot. The police and security services always come under a torrent of criticism when they fail - they should come under a torrent of praise today! :D

sense1

[mlc]

Stand by for the likes of 'Liberty' bleating about racism and human rights!!

[Cumbrian Fell]

Teen lard,

I agree with you. These people have allegedly broken criminal law and therefore must be treated as common criminals (as the IRA were on the UK mainland). Singling them out for special treatment will only legitimise (in their eyes) their heaven-sent mission.

Mind you, hanging might be too good for them...

[Comp Charlie]

Judging by the saturation news coverage covering...er...not very much at all other than massive queues at airports (quelle surprise) then there is nothing happening in Lebanon/ Israel today?

Bet the reporters over there are catching up on some sleep/ washing etc :zzz:

CC

[Jackonicko]

One hopes that this is more real than the supposed Ricin plot, or the imaginary problem that resulted in tanks at LHR in February 2003.

One hopes that the bomb factory in High Wycombe will prove more real than the one in Forest Gate.

One hopes that the 20 or so arrested people are guiltier than those at Forest Gate, and that the security forces have done better at picking out the guilty than they were with Jean Charles de Menezes.

One hopes that this isn't just a cack-handed attempt to distract attention from recent news in the Lebanon and Afghanistan, to whip up Islamophobia, and to prepare the ground for military action against people who the public might be persuaded to believe "are responsible for this" in Iran, say.

If this was a real plot, then of course everyone welcomes such quick, decisive and effective action, but in view of recent experience, there is bound to be some scepticism, and some are bound to wonder whether those responsible for previous panics and dodgy dossiers are taking us for a complete bunch of ****s.

And if it was real, then for christ's sake let's institute the right kind of airline security, based on measures that work (including ethnic profiling and a differential treatment of suspect groups, proper visas) and not on half witted PR gimmickry like banning books, iPods, laptops and baby wipes from the cabin.

[Talking Radalt]

....said Jackonicko from the warm fluffy comfort of his desk, with the luxury of time on his side whilst pondering what to say, safe in the knowledge that whatever he says it wouldn't have the same "Doh! Wrong answer!" result as the go/no-go decision that no doubt preceded this morning's activites.

Top job to all involved.:ok:

[November4]

Well done to the security services for getting this plot foiled.

However..............a little part of me is a bit sceptical......

After all......

The Ricin plot.....wasn't that billed as a massive plot to kill lots of people.

The Forest Gate raid where the bloke was shot because of a chemical "waistcoat" plot to kill lots of people.

Stockwell..............say no more


.........standing by for the inevitable......:ouch:


edited to say..... jacko made the same points as I was typing

[Two's in]

Shouldn't be nervous about stating the obvious, there have recently been more than enough half-assed security operations and government propaganda about the GWOT spouted for any member of the public to remain rightly skeptical of initial claims, and await for the facts to become available before passing on the thanks of a grateful nation. Don't start that "you're with me or you're with the terrorists" crap over in the UK, for pity's sake, I always gave you more credit.

[Jackonicko]

Talking Radalt,

Which bit of:

"If this was a real plot, then of course everyone welcomes such quick, decisive and effective action, but in view of recent experience, there is bound to be some scepticism."

did you have a problem understanding.

Shall I take you for a beer and talk you through it?

JN

[johnny99]

Talking Radalt,

Which bit of:

"If this was a real plot, then of course everyone welcomes such quick, decisive and effective action, but in view of recent experience, there is bound to be some scepticism."

did you have a problem understanding.

Shall I take you for a beer and talk you through it?

JN

I'd rather it wasn't a real plot any time and will stand by the security forces in their efforts to uncover and foil all! Remember they only need to be lucky once while we need to be lucky all the time.

[The Gorilla]

Jacko
You are not alone in your thoughts about this. Once again something doesn't smell right! Be interesting to see some hard evidence, but I suspect there won't be any and in a few weeks time most of the 21 will be quietly freed. Meanwhile all of our attention is diverted from Israel/Lebanon, Iraq/Afghanistan and the probability that there are in fact millions of illegal economic migrants in the UK since 1997. But hey immigration isn't a problem anyway, look these 21 are all home grown British!!
I may be an old cynical g*t but the actions of HMG and the Police in recent years lead me to disbelieve all that they now say!
:D

[Lon More]

Unfortunately the old curse, "May you live in interesting times" seems to be coming true,
more than enough half-assed security operations and government propaganda
More than enough reason for them to be sure of their facts this time then - hopefully
See other posts on the subject of August 22; and if you reallly believe in conspiraciy theories Google Nostradamus 21st century.

[SASless]

This is a very similar plot to that in the Philippines back in '95. One aircraft was bombed but survived the event after the terrorists tested their bomb on a real aircraft with real people as targets.

Far better the security forces nab folks and find it was a mistake than hesitate and then investigate 5000-7000 deathes following a mass attack as was suggested being the goal of the suspects.

That might not suit some of you naysayers but then reality oft times disproves those kinds of ideas don't they?

I challenge the concept this is a criminal matter....attacks like these constitute an act of war and should be handled that way.

"Tolerance" taken to excess has put the UK in great peril as the Underground bombings demonstrate.

[SASless]

Just a coincidence that the fifth anniversiary of 9-11 is coming up?

[Jackonicko]

"Tolerance" taken to excess has put the UK in great peril as the Underground bombings demonstrate.

I don't see how tolerance is to blame, though I do think that an over-PC approach will prevent proper security screening from being undertaken.

I would say that the Underground bombings demonstrate the failure of the Pakistani community to integrate in the way that the West Indians have, and demonstrate the inherent danger in having a non-integrated immigrant population who do not share British values.

I would say that the apparent willingness of the UK Government to follow US foreign policy in a way that can be interpreted as 'anti-Islamic', and to follow US 'pro-Israeli' policy (including the failure to call for an immediate halt to Israeli military ops against the Lebanon) has outraged Muslims, including British Muslims, further exacerbating the problem. The failure to address the concerns of moderate Muslims over Israel, etc. is particularly dangerous.

I would say that the failure to halt the custom of bringing in spouses from rural Pakistan has kept the UK Pakistani community more Pakistani, more old fashioned, and more Islamic than would be the case if young British Muslims married each other, while the custom of sending young men back to study in Madrassas is clearly dangerous, if only in preventing them from more fully integrating into UK society.

[haltonapp]

Saw Hugh of the BBC reading the news from LHR, was disappointed that neither himself, George or Natasha were brave enough to read the news from Beirut, especially after their efforts covering the Avian flue "outbreak" in Scotland

[GreenKnight121]

There will always be those who view all acts of "their" government as lies, tricks, and conspiracies... like Jack-my-brain's-been-nicked-O!

Like the moron on the Rumors & News forum who likened this to " When Thatcher's ratings were at an all time low, causing the Falklands war put her back at the top of the ratings." Someone calling himself icarus5, location France!

Forgive my poor memory... just how did she get the Argies to invade Port Stanley again??? Or was that more lies too... and they had been there all along!

[Indianzz]

It is interesting reading the posts on this topic both here and in the Rumours and news forum the amount of skeptisim surrounding this issue.

I am grateful that I live in NZ and therefore somewhat isolated from these things. However the only point I would like to make is that since the debacle that is Iraq and the absolute lies told about WMD etc, free thinking individuals have a right to distrust, particularly the UK and USA Governments.

Perhaps that distrust has gone too far - I simply don't know, but when you mislead people the way in which Bush and Blair have, then there are unfortunately consequences.

It was inevitable from the moment that Bush was "elected' that he would find a reason to use the USA's arsenal - you cannot put a cowboy in charge of the world's biggest gun store and expect him to behave - 9/11 provided him the excuse and the rest as they say is history - the problem is that we all have to live it.

[SASless]

Indian,

How many terrorist acts occurred before Bush got elected? Count just the ones during Clinton's administration and report back to us please.

I do believe you will find the dangers of terrorism were with us long before Bush began to campaign for the office much less entered office.

Whether one "trusts" one's government or "believes" one's leaders has more to do with your political leanings than actual events on the ground (and in the air).

I have the same kinds of concerns you do in a left handed way.....the thought of the likes of Ted Kennedy, John Kerry, John Murtha controlling the national defense scares the bejesus out of me. They would rather play partisan politics than look to the needs and interests of the nation as a whole.

George Bush inherited a military establishment that is one third the size his Father had to fight Gulf War I and that lack of forces has caused a very detrimental effect to our ability to deter agression and threats to our national interests.

If you cannot accept this world problem with Islamic Fundamentalism has been a very long time coming then I would suggest you might question the basis you found your opinon upon just as you question Bush and Blair.


My generation grew up on Cowboy shows....Horse Operas as we call them.


Code of the West

Live each day with courage.

Take pride in your work.

Always finish what you start.

Do what has to be done.

Be tough, but fair.

When you make a promise, keep it.

Ride for the brand.

Talk less and say more.

Remember that some things aren't for sale.

Know where to draw the line.

http://www.elvaquero.com/The_Cowboy_Code.htm

[Samuel]

I quite agree with John Reid: we have to toughen up. I'm sure Jacko will have read it!:=

As he promised to appeal against the ruling, Mr Reid said another attack on the UK was "highly likely".

In his address, Mr Reid used stark terms to describe how today's terrorists were "unconstrained" in their intentions, by international conventions, standards or morality.

"None of us should be anything other than vigilant and that vigilance is the price of securing our freedom," he said.

"There is no room for complacency. We are probably in the most sustained period of severe threat since the end of the Second World War.

"While I am confident that the security services and police will deliver 100% effort and 100% dedication, they cannot guarantee 100% success.

"Our security services and the apparatus of the state, while they are an absolutely essential pre-requisite for defeating terrorism, cannot be sufficient on their own.

"Our common security in this country can only be assured by a common effort from all sections of society."

Security rethink needed

Mr Reid said the "challenge to all of us" means "we may have to modify some of our freedoms in the short-term in order to prevent their misuse and abuse by those who oppose our fundamental values and would destroy our freedoms and values in the long-term".

"It is up to each and all of us to ask the questions: what price our security? What price our freedoms? At what cost can we preserve our freedoms?

"What values are at stake and what is the cost of making the wrong choices in the short term?"

Mr Reid said politicians, the judiciary and the public sector needed to "understand the depth and magnitude" of the terrorist threat facing the UK.

He said he was frustrated by the number of people who should be better informed, but "who just don't get it".

He called for a dramatic rethink of the country's security policy to fit this century, rather than base it on a framework more suited to the last century.

[SASless]

Muslims assimilate the culture of their adopted countries?

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/muslimpoll002.jpg

http://michellemalkin.com/archives/images/muslimpoll.jpg

[Roadtrip]

It is interesting reading the posts on this topic both here and in the Rumours and news forum the amount of skeptisim surrounding this issue.

I am grateful that I live in NZ and therefore somewhat isolated from these things. However the only point I would like to make is that since the debacle that is Iraq and the absolute lies told about WMD etc, free thinking individuals have a right to distrust, particularly the UK and USA Governments.

Perhaps that distrust has gone too far - I simply don't know, but when you mislead people the way in which Bush and Blair have, then there are unfortunately consequences.

It was inevitable from the moment that Bush was "elected' that he would find a reason to use the USA's arsenal - you cannot put a cowboy in charge of the world's biggest gun store and expect him to behave - 9/11 provided him the excuse and the rest as they say is history - the problem is that we all have to live it.


I love these people who bleat, whine, and act so self-rightous all the while their freedom is guaranteed by others and by thousands of miles of ocean. I think the Brits ought to ship all the muslims over to Kiwi-land.

Indianzz evidently doesn't have the brains or character to make good cowboy, SASless. Thanks for reminding us of what character is.

[SASless]

Aw Shucks Roadtrip....I never could give a miss to a good game of Cowboy and Indianzz errrrr...Indians!:E

[Indianzz]

Perhaps SASless and Roadtrip may like to take a considered deep breath before they start tossing around the insults etc.

And while they're doing that check out New Zealand's record at contributing to major world conflicts - start with WW1 / WW2 / Korean & Vietnam Wars and go from there. Then reflect upon the fact that our total population now has only just reached 4 million - you will then "possibly" - although I'm not too hopeful - realise that we have contrinuted portionately more than the good ole USA and UK combined.

With all due respect "gentlemen" your attitude attitude is a direct result of America no longer having the USSR to keep it in check and you now think you can run roughshod over the whole world - well sorry - you cant.

Giddyup

[Samuel]

Complete, utter nonsense Roadtrip.

"It is self-defeating logic, just as the weapons themselves are self-defeating: to compel an ally to accept nuclear weapons against the wishes of that ally is to take the moral position of totalitarianism, which allows for no self-determination, and which is exactly the evil that we are supposed to be fighting against".

I just love the way you're defending the free world in Iraq.

David Lange, late Prime Minister of NZ. Read the full text of that famous OxFord Union Debate, and digest, before judging us.

http://www.publicaddress.net/default,1578.sm#post

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

Will you boys play nicely and stop being beastly to the Kiwis? They are well out of it and that hardly sets them up for criticism. That distance, perhaps, gives them a unique view on the "Axis of righteousness". It grieves me to paraphrase Geo W but, sometimes, he deserves it. Let's also stop feigning surprise at the reference to cowboy culture. It's obvious that Geo W revels in it; but how our resident f**kwit fits in there, the Heavens only know. Like it or not, that is how a large part of our crowded little planet see you Americans.

Samuel is right to point out the contribution and, sadly, sacrifice that NZ has made, per head of population, to our freedom. No doubt they will be there again the next time we need them.

Correcting the thread drift error: the upset yesterday has all the signs of being home grown. Coupled with the outcome of our liberal, feckless and politically correct society, events in Iraq and other lands of the mosque have nurtured a hatred in the Muslim youth that will now be hard to illuminate. Again, Geo W bandying precise words like "war" and "fascist" doesn't help anyone. In fact, it gives these evil murderers a banner of respectability.

Anyway, can we stop being so precious and read these posts in context and with just a hint of humour? I acknowledge SASless as making the effort on the latter.

[Maple 01]

I am grateful that I live in NZ and therefore somewhat isolated from these things. However the only point I would like to make is that since the debacle that is Iraq and the absolute lies told about WMD etc, free thinking individuals have a right to distrust, particularly the UK and USA Governments.

No chemical weapons found? Perhaps you'd like to look after the 500 that have been uncovered since the fall of Saddam - after all, they can't really be stuffed with toxic nasties, it's all propaganda - right?

With all due respect "gentlemen" your attitude is a direct result of America no longer having the USSR to keep it in check and you now think you can run roughshod over the whole world - well sorry - you can’t.

Yes, sure, the world would be much safer if the Yanks stayed at home :rolleyes: They started two world wars, faked 9/11 and murdered 6 million Arabs in the Israeli gas chambers whilst steeling all the world’s oil to fry whales in – any other offences you’d like to take into account?

FFS, I wonder why they bother......Still, I'm sure Helen loves you Indianzz, keep hugging those trees! (No NZ strike aircraft for you when you grow up!)

[Samuel]

You don't hail from Foggy Bottom aswell do you?:D

[rarelyathome]

Calm down guys and stop thowing the insults. :=
I'm sure the bad guys are keen to divide and conquer - don't do their job for them!

[[email protected]]

I just love you conspiracy theorists, life must be a bundle of laughs for you. :hmm:

[TightSlot]

Please forgive what may be a naive request from Cabin Crew (Mil is not my usual turf since my lot stopped the German trooper flights some years back).

Is there anybody that I can write/email to say "well done and thanks": This probably seems silly, but so many people are quick to give Police/Security services a hard time when it goes wrong - I just feel that I'd like to say thanks when they get it right!

Many Thanks

[TheEvilDiesel]

Saw Hugh of the BBC reading the news from LHR, was disappointed that neither himself, George or Natasha were brave enough to read the news from Beirut, especially after their efforts covering the Avian flue "outbreak" in Scotland

Sorry to burst your bubble.

Hugh Edwards only returned from the Middle East on Monday last week (31st Jul) after presenting the news from Israel.

The BBC do have cameramen and reporters in Beirut and Southern Lebanon.

[foldingwings]

TS,

I'm sure John Reid or Ian (not Tony) Blair could convey your appreciation to those at the coal face.

To anybody working in security at LHR etc,

Can you reassure me that, in these rightly tightened security conditions, Muslim women who are swathed in black are subjected to a full garment (under if necessary) check or strip search to ensure that they are 'safe to fly'?

Just curious!

FW

[teeteringhead]

Perhaps Matt's idea in today's Torygraph would help ...


http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/graphics/2006/08/11/matt.gif

[The Gorilla]

FW

Of course not!

[SASless]

The BBC do have cameramen and reporters in Beirut and Southern Lebanon.

I don't guess they are giving equal time by sending an equal number of staff to Israel as well? Especially knowing their slight tilt leftwards at the Beeb.:ugh:

[buoy15]

Interesting to note the Beeb refered to all those arrested as "British born" - obviously not intending to offend our ethnic minorities
I wonder if the cat at Broadcasting House decided to have her kittens in the canteen oven, they would call them cakes?
Love many, Trust a few, ALWAYS paddle your own canoe!

[scribbler614]

SASLess, intrigued by your comment a few posts back:

''I challenge the concept this is a criminal matter....attacks like these constitute an act of war and should be handled that way.''

Agree this would have been extremely warlike act if spooks / cops hadn't done such a commendable job, comparable to airstrikes on London or New York, say.
But who's the enemy force? 24 suspects are in custody and they're all homegrown UK citizens, and 'civilians.' Blokes next door. One's reported to be the son of a late Tory Party constituency agent, for crying out loud.
It's not a flippant question. It goes to the heart of how military forces can protect the nation in these tricky times.
An act of war, maybe. But who do we retaliate against militarily? Pakistan?
:confused:

[Tombstone]

May I suggest France?

[Jackonicko]

Tombstone,

Excellent idea.

(I take it that we're leaving Wales for the second wave?)

[SASless]

Scribs,

This is a war unlike any we have faced in the history of the world. Technology has facilitated communication, travel, weaponry that easily moves beyond borders and jurisdictions in a manner that overwhelms conventional law enforcement organizations and jurisdictions even on a national level.

To be able to effectively combat this threat, the world's nations engaged in the fight against those that mean us harm, will have to ban together even if only to the extent required to conduct a coordinated broadscale destruction of the groups, organizations and nations if need be, that nuture or facilitate these attacks.

Placing people in prison after a court trial is not an effective means of defeating such violent perpetrators. As in any "war", we have to destroy the ability, desire, and motivation to attack us. When those that use violence against our citizens are identified and caught, they should be dealt with in a swift and deadly manner. We have to utterly destroy their operational units, logistical support, and communication ability.

Radical elements of society that seek to use violence to achieve their goals must be convinced through our actions that peaceful engagement in the political process is the only viable choice. They have to know with certainty that any other choice brings such harm to them that they either choose peaceful means or death.

I firmly believe that as long as we have a part of the world's members promoting hatred, murder, violence of any kind as a way to salvation and as a way of acheiving control of others, we on the other hand must be fully prepared to defend ourselves at whatever cost or means necessary.

There is a segment of the world's population today, that confuse meekness of manner for lack of resolve. We have to correct that misunderstanding and do away with the meekness of manner and show them why peaceful actions are the only choice.

[GOLF_BRAVO_ZULU]

SASLess, intrigued by your comment a few posts back: ''I challenge the concept this is a criminal matter....attacks like these constitute an act of war and should be handled that way.'' Agree this would have been extremely warlike act if spooks / cops hadn't done such a commendable job, comparable to airstrikes on London or New York, say...............

An act of war, maybe. But who do we retaliate against militarily? Pakistan?
:confused:

I re-iterate my Post at Srl 34; "Coupled with the outcome of our liberal, feckless and politically correct society, events in Iraq and other lands of the mosque have nurtured a hatred in the Muslim youth that will now be hard to illuminate. Again, Geo W bandying precise words like "war" and "fascist" doesn't help anyone. In fact, it gives these evil murderers a banner of respectability".

Bush and sundry others use the description "war" far too freely. If they were a political organisation trying to overthrow the Government and seize power from within a Country, it may just qualify as Civil War. The only other war with legal recognition is between Nation States. These fanatical mass murderers fit none of those categories. They are common criminals.

I would also like to thank the veteran p**s takers (you know who you are) for not latching on to my earlier Post’s typo regarding; "hatred in the Muslim youth that will now be hard to illuminate". I did, of course, mean eliminate! Thank you sodding Microsoft. That said, illuminating them might be a good idea; preferably with Lepus flare up the ar*e!

[Jackonicko]

Scribs,

The Tory agent's son had, however, converted to Islam, shaved his head, grown a full Islamic beard and adopted an Islamic name by deed poll.....

[scribbler614]

[QUOTE=SASless]Scribs,
Placing people in prison after a court trial is not an effective means of defeating such violent perpetrators. As in any "war", we have to destroy the ability, desire, and motivation to attack us. When those that use violence against our citizens are identified and caught, they should be dealt with in a swift and deadly manner.

They have to know with certainty that any other choice brings such harm to them that they either choose peaceful means or death.

-----------

Thought-provoking stuff, SASless, and your usual robust form!
I'm with you against the meek-mannered whiners, but I part company when it comes to treating these people - I'm talking about homegrown terrorists caught before they can do their thing - as enemy combatants who need wiping out.
Punish a failed suicide bomber by killing them?! Not much of a punishment, surely, or a deterrent for their mates who have similar ambitions?
Don't know much about their twisted religious doctrines, but strongly suspect they would welcome death in the electric chair as martyrdom and look forward to their 70 virgins.
I'm not saying treat them with kid gloves or bleat about their human rights. I'm saying let them rot their days away in a deep dark hole, at Her Majesty's pleasure.
Don't give them the dignity of a warrior's death. Treat them like the common murderers they tried to be. Treat them like we do nasty sex offenders.
These are Brits who (allegedly) broke British laws, in Britain, against fellow Brits. They're not noble warriors, no matter what they want anyone to think.
Our respect for laws is what makes us the goodies and them the baddies. That matters, I reckon.
Save the conventional military force for occasions when there's a recognisable military foe, and then use it ruthlessly. If SF blokes can also take the fight to less recognisable enemies abroad, then good on 'em.
But we're talking here about UK criminals. We're more likely to isolate and smother the violent extremists by locking them up for the rest of their days than by executing them. Not being PC. I just think it's more likely to work.

Jacko - granted, he isn't quite your average Tory agent's son!! But my point remains. Grow a beard, change your name, become an evil t**t - you're still British, and subject to British criminal law.
Now if you go to Afghanistan or Basra and pick up a gun and shoot our boys, that's different. You've put yourself on a different playing field, and must face the consequences.

[psy clops]

Just as a matter of interest, why did these 24 (?) youths want to commit suicide (a non-islamic act I understand)?

I’m guessing, because they don’t like America.

Why then don’t they like America?

Perhaps because they have had a lot of brainwashing during Friday prayers?

Okay then, why have they had volumes of anti-American c*ap forced down them, and why are they so hell bent on destroying the good old US (plus appropriate hangers-on (possibly including NZ!))

Seriously I would like to know the answer to that question. WHY do these young guys want to do this? New Scientist tells me that most suicide bombers are graduates, so I guess that they are not stupid. Arm loads of virgins is not a good enough answer either!

This is a reasonably new phenomena isn’t it – at least as far as extensive Muslim hatred towards America is concerned? Palestine is a different matter of course, and clearly understandable. I know too that JI have been strutting their stuff for years and there have been incidents in Malaysia for literally hundreds of years, but nothing on this scale. I’m just interested in the anti-American sentiment now. Perhaps if we could find that out, some things can be explained.

I’ve dropped my share of PWII btw (some of which hit the target!), I’m not a bleeding heart liberal, but I do think that “hanging’s too good for them” is a little short sighted in this instance. Perhaps we are p*ssing people off with what we do and say? Or are we always in the right? I’m not condoning their actions at all, but sometimes knowing why helps. Perhaps I AM a bleeding heart liberal!

C’mon down cowboys!

[WhiteOvies]

Scribbler
At risk of thread drift, we in the UK have not always treated homegrown terrorists as common murderers. When a certain response to terrorists in NI was required the lads from Hereford did not always treat the culprits as civilians. Times have moved on and the terrorists have changed, has our response also had to change to reflect the current PC climate we live in?

[TMJ]

Placing people in prison after a court trial is not an effective means of defeating such violent perpetrators. As in any "war", we have to destroy the ability, desire, and motivation to attack us. When those that use violence against our citizens are identified and caught, they should be dealt with in a swift and deadly manner. We have to utterly destroy their operational units, logistical support, and communication ability.

When they are caught, they should be dealt with in a deadly manner? That's just not cricket; when you catch someone in a war, do you execute them? Granted terrorists don't abide by the Laws of Armed Conflict, but we do; if you think insist on dignifying what they do as a war, the enemy are irregular soldiers and should be treated as such.

Personally, I'm on the "treat them as common criminals" side of the argument, with all that entails; open and fair trials, proof beyond reasonable doubt etc. Why? Because I was under the impression those were part of the values that we are meant to be defending. Our ancient freedoms and way of life, Magna Carta, habeas corpus and all that. If you can draft a law which allows a Govt to deal with terrorists differently to other criminals, which doesn't dilute the protection of the assumed to be innocent until proven guilty subject from the power of the State then fair play to you, lets hear it; if so you're a better man than I am. If you're suggesting the "enemy" should be engaged outwith the law, then we might as well call it a day, because the society I thought I signed up to defend is screwed.

[Hardly Worth it]

Tombstone,

Excellent idea.

(I take it that we're leaving Wales for the second wave?)

Wouldn't that be 'overstretch' or am I on the wrong post ?

[Jackonicko]

No, I think we're meant to be able to mount to medium sized air campaigns at once. But if it is, use Trident against Paris.

Oh go on then, against both.....

[FormerFlake]

I just love you conspiracy theorists, life must be a bundle of laughs for you. :hmm:
It's actually to draw peoples attention away from the fact Becks has finally been dropped from the England Squad.;)

[SPIT]

I bet that within 7 days the Civil Lib Lawyers and Advisors will be BLEATING ON about the accused's LACK OF HUMAN RIGHTS (HUMAN BEING A JOKE)???:rolleyes: :rolleyes:

[BEagle]

Enoch - why did no-one listen?

[samuraimatt]

Do you refer to Enoch Powell's famous 'Rivers of Blood' speech, as delivered in Birmingham on 20 April 1968?

[SASless]

Muhammad Abul Kalam from the Muslim Safety Forum said that there was generally an increase in Islamophobic attacks following events such as Thursday's raids, in which 24 people were arrested.

"We simply don't want to see any kind of backlash unleashed against ordinary Muslims because of what has happened."



Oh, but if "ordinary Muslims" were as concerned about the actions that provoked this mass wave of "Islamophobic" revenge attacks?:rolleyes:

[Flatus Veteranus]

Code of the West

Live each day with courage.

Take pride in your work.

Always finish what you start.

Do what has to be done.

Be tough, but fair.

When you make a promise, keep it.

Ride for the brand.

Talk less and say more.

Remember that some things aren't for sale.

Know where to draw the line.

http://www.elvaquero.com/The_Cowboy_Code.htm[/QUOTE]

SAS]

What was the cowpoke's definition of a virgin? A girl who could not outrun her brother!

Nevertheless, I admire your values. You probably realise that under Brit criminal law, which harks back constantly to events on the banks of the Thames near Windsor in the 12th Century, Hearsay evidence (eg, obtained from informers) and evidence obtained via electronic intercepts is inadmissable in court. So "the 21" will have to be released after 28 days because all the evidence connecting them with a crime that has not (yet) taken place will be thrown out by a learned judge wearing fancy robes and a wig. And the Jihadists will moan even louder about Islamophobia infecting the police and security services.

One day this country will wake up to the need to bring its criminal justice system into the age of suicidal terrorism. But by then many of us will be dead and the nation will be a Caliphate.

[Hilife]

Much like post 9/11, I don’t suppose we will see tens of thousands of law abiding yet outraged Muslims marching through the streets of London with placards denouncing terrorism and the targeting of innocent civilians - thought not.

[rugmuncher]

TS,

To anybody working in security at LHR etc,
Can you reassure me that, in these rightly tightened security conditions, Muslim women who are swathed in black are subjected to a full garment (under if necessary) check or strip search to ensure that they are 'safe to fly'?
Just curious!
FW

http://www.jihadwatch.org/dhimmiwatch/image0016.jpg

Racial profiling may not be a bad idea, but I guess the PC Brigadiers will always cry foul play.

[BillHicksRules]

Dear all,

So now we have a Hamster Wheel in the Mil forum to replace the one lost in Jet Blast. :ugh: :ugh:

Cheers

BHR

[SASless]

Flats,

Brothers and Uncle's....afterall if they were not good enough for Kin....who would have them?;)

[tmmorris]

Very sensible letter in the Torygraph... to the effect that while clearly not all Muslims are terrorists, at the moment all terrorists appear to be Muslims, so one can hardly blame the police if they save time by investigating the Muslim community first...

Tim

[tablet_eraser]

Tim,

I saw the letter. Sadly the author didn't attribute the quote, "though not all muslims are terrorists, seemingly all terrorists are muslims".

Attributed to Sir Iqbal Sacranie, head of the Muslim Council of Britain.

I think that this plot, as with so many others, shows what a lamentably, crushingly, dangerously stupid idea "multiculturalism" is. I'm all for tolerating other religions, encouraging community spirit based on the ties that bind people, be they race, home town, sexuality, or whatever. But Britain has A - that is, ONE - culture. It is the culture that teaches us to respect one another, that drives us to fight oppression, that makes us proud of our way of life. It is the culture that defeated Hitler. It is a culture that has its roots in a thousand years of jurisprudence, and that takes its references from Christianity. A culture that didn't need the Human Rights Act to tell it how to treat people with decency and respect. Most of all, a culture that welcomes those who seek refuge from hatred and oppression. That very aspect has been abused and distorted by the politically-correct nonsense of "multiculturalism".

"Multiculturalism" sounded like such a good idea to those who dislike Britain's history, because it presented an opportunity to topple our values and even our continued survival as a unique country. Earlier on, someone mentioned how well West Indian immigrants merged into our culture - that's because they were proud to be British while still being proud of their roots. Multiculturalism encourages some immigrants to refuse to integrate. Sadly, it enables a tiny group of people to reject our way of life so totally that they are willing to destroy everyone, whatever their background.

Those people will not succeed because their values are so utterly detestible that ultimately even their own communities will turn on them. For now, we need to make sure that everyone involved is given the fair trial that their own beliefs deny those who they would kill or maim. The police have done a commendable job here - over a year's worth of evidence. Let's put it to use and get these b@$tards behind bars where they can be treated as the common criminal scum they are.

In the meantime, since Bliar is so keen to "rebalance" the criminal justice system, why doesn't he take a look at the immigration system? Rebalance it so that we are denying asylum to purely economic migrants, instead of denying it to people who will be put to death in Iran or Zimbabwe for being gay or being a free-minded journalist. Since this government is so keen on human rights, stop denying them to people who genuinely need asylum and will be grateful, and stop granting free access to our taxes to people who want asylum and will be ungrateful.

[Jackonicko]

Best thing I've read on PPRuNe for ages, Tabs. Succinct, intelligent, passionate and thought provoking. :D :D :D

I've always thought that we should aspire to being a multi-ethnic but mono-cultural society, assimilated as much as integrated. The only place where we might disagree is that my 'single culture' would not be fixed, and would be adaptable enough to incorporate and reflect the best of the cultures of those we assimilate, while retaining certain core values. Perhaps you feel the same, perhaps not.

But the point that we need to stick to our values in the face of attack is spot on. They must not steamroller us into Gitmos or H-blocks, we must remain what we are, a civilised, liberal, tolerant and humane democracy.

[SASless]

Jacko,

Seems like a nice thought....how you prepared to defend against the attackers?

It would seem to me, the "liberal" notions is what has gotten us in this pickle. In the USA, we have not had the home grown suicide bombers as you have in the UK. As a society, when one immigrates to America, one does so to be become an "American" and thus seeks to assimilate into the "American" culture. Ours is a society based upon freedom of religion and tolerance for others. We here in the USA do not seem to be having the problems you in the UK are.....why might that be? What are you folks in the UK doing wrong....or what are we doing right here in the USA that you are not in the UK?

Why do the Muslim youth of the UK feel so alienated as to provoke some of them to become suicide bombers?

There must be something that acts to motivate these folks that is missing in the USA as compared to the UK.....what might that be?

[Jackonicko]

What have we done wrong?

I'd say that we have allowed (even encouraged) a large immigrant group to retain its distinct cultural identity, when elements of that culture are fundamentally incompatible with broader UK society's core beliefs and values.

That group has reinforced its traditional identity by maintaining a constant flow of new blood from the homeland, and by sending many of its young 'home' for religious training and indoctrination.

Because that group has neither assimilated nor even integrated, even second and third generation members of the group do not recognise a British identity.

We've exacerbated the problem by pursuing policies that are perceived as being gratuitously anti-Islamic, forcing members of our Islamic population to 'take sides'.

[16 blades]

Why do the Muslim youth of the UK feel so alienated as to provoke some of them to become suicide bombers?
Because nowadays, we are so paralysed by political correctness that we let them. (MARK MY WORDS: I will lay money on this lot getting away scot free, probably with a substantial sum of compensation, because of the 'Phil Shiners' of this world - bookmark this post and come back to me in 6 month's time! If I'm wrong I'll bite my own c**k off!)

Tablet_Eraser
I have debated separate issues with you in the past, and we haven't seen eye-to-eye! I never thought I'd see myself write this, but your post was absolutely excellent! My hat is being doffed in your direction as we speak.

Terrorism CANNOT exist without communities to support it - a body of people who sympathise with their goals, keep their mouths shut when necessary, even provide 'safe houses' where required (one only has to examine NI to see this). It makes me sick to hear countless muslim 'community leaders' paraded on liberal TV shows, bleating on about 'alienation' of thier community, and how they couldn't possibly know who among them are capable of such acts. The bottom line is, you DO know EXACTLY who is capable of doing this, and you DO NOTHING because, whilst you may disagree with their methods, you sympathise with their aims, and you would never 'grass up' your muslim brothers to the 'evil' unbelievers.

I would point out at this stage the 'standard' response of a muslim who is asked if they comdemn acts of terrorism:

"We comdemn the killing of ALL innocents"

....conveniently failing to point out that no 'non-believer' is considered to be innocent. In the same vein, should we not consider the entire muslim community guilty in the face of home-grown terrorist atrocities, given that there is NO WAY that their community could be totally in the dark as to their activities?

A recent survey showed that over 25% of british muslims sympathised with the 7/7 bombers, and that an even higher number would not report suspicious activity of their 'brethren' to the police. I don't care what spin you put on it, 25% of 2 milllion is ALOT of people.

Yet, indiscrimiate killing of British people is justified because of Tony Blair's stance with the US over Israel - even though only 35% of us voted for him at the last election, and the rest of us hate his guts. If WE are guilty, then SO ARE YOU. Which is it to be?

16B

[Jackonicko]

Before you get too smug, SASless, while this lot don't see themselves as having any loyalty to the UK, and would doubtless attack UK targets if told to do so, the people they really want to hurt are you lot. They might hate us for being complicit in the oppression of other Muslims, and for our decadence, but they reserve their real hatred for the Israelis and for you lot, the Serbs and the Russians.

[SASless]

Jacko,

I am sure there are more than a few Muslims in the good ol' USA, some of them travel back to the homeland, attend religious schools exactly as the UK Muslims do.

Smug I am not. It was a serious question and deserves a serious answer. The UK had the Tube bombings, faced a second round, and now has this latest group of willing Suicide Bombers. The USA has not.

The question remains....simply.... Why so?

We have had our budding terrorists of the home grown variety but not any dedicated enough to enlist in the Suicide Brigade....there must be a reason. Perhaps if we could quantify that to the point we know why that is....perhaps we could head off more converts both in the UK and ultimately the USA.

Detroit, Michigan has the largest Muslim population in the USA and we do not see the problems there as we do in the UK. What is it about our society that prevents this from happening. (At least so far....knock on wood!)

If one thinks it is only the Americans and Israeli's the Fundamentalists hate.....you better grab another cup of coffee....they hate anyone that they consider a non-believer or Infidel. They give a damn one might be the most liberal and apologistic for their conduct.....they still view us all in the same light. Anyone of us could have been aboard one of those airliners....including the Grand Mufti himself and they would carry through on their plot to committ mass murder.

[Samuel]

Tablet........:D :D :D

Beautifully put!:ok:

[tablet_eraser]

Thanks for the comments. 16B, as you above all others know, I speak as I find!

SASless, I see exactly what you're alluding to, and, going back to my first post, I think it can be attributed to the fact that the majority of immigrants to the US are going there to seek an opportunity to better themselves, knowing that Uncle Sam will not tolerate those who would try to steal from him or poke him in the eye! This is, again, where your great nation has a considerable advantage over Blighty. You never subscribed to the liberal claptrap of "multiculturalism". Those who seek citizenship in the USA must consider themselves American above anything else. Yes, new British citizens swear allegiance to the Queen, and yes, we have a citizenship test. But we still allow new British citizens to consider themselves Pakistani, Indian, Polish, or whatever, BEFORE considering themselves British. I do so hate to agree with Lord Tebbit, but it seems that his generally flawed "Cricket Test" actually holds some truth.

It is impossible to prevent a fractured society if the social policy of the day, "multiculturalism", actively encourages division and difference. Encourage collectivism and diversity by all means, but it is becoming clear that the ghettoisation of muslim communities is starting to have a malevolent effect. What did anyone expect? The clearest lesson of human history is that when two different peoples regard each other with suspicion, terrible things happen. Muslims look at the police with fear and contempt, because the cancer of fundamentalism makes them the number one candidate for suspicion. It's a cycle that will not be broken until we all start to understand and respect our cultural heritage.

The flaw in my own argument - or perhaps, its clinching facet - is called "Chinatown".

I found this (http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/uk/4784919.stm) very interesting:

"I just don't know who would do this kind of thing," said Mr Ullah. "I just cannot understand how anyone could think there is justification for acts against our society, against our community and against our country."

Near to the till in his packed bookshop, Mr Ullah stocks a pamphlet by an Islamic scholar which gives answers to some very pertinent questions: Is bombing and "wreaking havoc" justifiable?

Its 26 pages are dense, hard-going Islamic scripture - but the message is there; these are "shameful acts" that have no justification in Islam.

Here is a man who has clearly embraced his adopted country. He is the sort of person who should be leading the internal battle against extremism that sadly must take place within the muslim community. It would help if Red Ken would stop inviting grotesque demagogues to spread hatred, too.

Incredible how much effort you can put into a post on a night-shift!

[FormerFlake]

Despite the spin, Brittan is no longer a multicultural society. When, in the early 50s, Britain went from being the biggest exporter of man power to the biggest importer in the world it started to go wrong. As manpower was moved into the areas where workers were needed most segregation began. In the early day it did not matter so much, most immigrants were from the Empire and where proud of it. Now the Empire is long gone, there is no pride in being 'British' and communities are divided into cultures, religions and nationalities.

Couple this with all the PC garbage, another throw back to the Empire. Gone is the 'white mans burden' and the 'noble savage' attitudes of the past. Forcing a certain way of life on people is now seen as pure evil, mainly out of perceived guilt. Civil liberties, freedom of speech, human rights and many other legal aspects have come into place. These laws/rules allow people to chose there path in life, but who is to say they will chose correctly? There is nothing wrong with expecting (or even forcing) certain standards from people as long as it is one rule for all.



On the subject of immigration, ask yourself why Britain has so many immigrants. Part of it is because we have plenty of (by UK standards) low paid jobs and not enough people are doing them. People know they can make plenty of money with allowances and benefits, why pick strawberries all day? As Sir Humphrey Appleby once said "This country will have as much unemployment as it is prepared to pay for".
If you are happy to pay 20+ pence a kg more for strawberries (and more for all the other products from low paid jobs) then you can complain about immigrants. If you want cheap produce, except why it is cheap and shut up (or do something constructive about it).

[BenThere]

A key aspect to civil breakdown is absence of the rule of law, which is a cornerstone of every functioning society. The rule of law may take the form of religious enforcement, as in Saudi Arabia, or, as we know it in Western democracies, through the criminal code enforced by police and the courts.

The US, despite having been free from home-grown Muslim attrocities so far, has many urban areas where rule of law has broken down, and where gangs of thugs run rampant, providing their own means of enforcement. I've seen this happen in my home town, Detroit. I had no fear growing up there in the 50s and 60s, but now I will not enter the city unarmed. I can, however, walk freely in Dearbornistan among the burkas and beards at any hour.

I submit that restoration of rule of law, with the likelihood of arrest, conviction and incarceration restored to a deterrent level, would go a long way toward reducing our local terrorism threats. The burden of proof seems to be held too high on matters of conspiracy, abetting, and incitement, and vicious predators are too often allowed to go free to continue their bloody endeavors.

[Jackonicko]

"The UK had the Tube bombings, faced a second round, and now has this latest group of willing Suicide Bombers. The USA has not.
The question remains....simply.... Why so?"
Ignoring John Walker Lindh, Adam Gadahn, Jose Padilla et al, I'd say it is because you don't have a large, unassimilated, unintegrated Muslim population that is resident in, but not part of, your society, and that does not see itself as being 'American'.
The contrast between our West Indian immigrants and the Asian community is instructive. Jamaicans, Trinidadians and those from Barbados may be at the bottom of the heap in UK Society (in income, jobs and educational attainment) but they are a vigorous part of that society, and one that is integrating and assimilating rapidly, and that is inter-breeding with wider society. Its youth are not packed off back to Kingston for religious instruction, and are not expected to marry boys/girls from back home. Black British athletes see themselves as British, and are proud to be so, and wrap themselves in the Union Jack when they win. Our sports teams are full of black faces.
The same cannot be said for British Asians, who have succeeded better when it comes to income, jobs and educational attainment, but who remain largely apart from UK society, with separate schooling (madness) and with little integration. Even the most 'British' British Asian athletes (and there are few of them in our national sports) tend to be like Amir Khan - who fights under two flags - that of Pakistan and that of Great Britain.
And finally there is the real concern that it may be in the nature of Islam that an extremist interpretation is possible, and that that 'variant' of the religion is particularly dangerous to us.
The spectre of fundamentalist Rastafarians or Baptists does not terrify me quite so much. What are they going to do, overwhelm me with marijuana smoke, or deafen me with gospel singing?

[SASless]

Jacko,

ignoring John Walker Lindh, Adam Gadahn, Jose Padilla et al,


Quite the contrary Jacko....those cases are proof of what I am saying. They took up the Terrorist track but were not dedicated enough to commit suicide to accomplish their deeds.

Lindh was in Afghanistan when captured, Padilla had intentions of building a dirty bomb but nothing suggests he had suicide bombing as the method.

We have our malcontents but none that are happy to sit atop that Pyramid of dedication....the one with the very broad base of folks that nod "uh huh" when they read or hear of something and is topped by those that gladly die for their cause. Oddly enough it is almost the opposite to a Pyramid drawn for those willing to defend freedom.

[buoy15]

Beags my Bonny Lad
A lot of us did listen to Enoch at the time, but gay boy Morning Cloud II considered us to be in the minority - so he was shunted off to NI to keep him quiet
Had it been now - the minority would definitely have won, and 40 years down the line, we wouldn't be living in this cr*p multicultural society of today
Enoch Powell served in WWII. He was the youngest officer ever to be promoted to Brigadier in the history of the British Army - He spoke 11 languages and was at interpreter level in 6 - he translated Homer into English - never attempted before.
He entered politics to make a difference. As MP for Wolverhampton from the early 50's, he witnessed the post war influx of Carribean and Irish immigrants to the Midlands to do the dirty jobs and build the M1, so he was the best informed MP on these topics. Technically he was an MP, but in essence he was rare, much like Churchill, he was a Statesman - there is a fundamental difference! He would have been a great PM for this country.
His speech to the House was stunning, articulate, accurate and damning - that's why he went
There have been very few 'possible' Statesmen in Parliament since. It's been heavily populated with self serving grubby politicians waiting for the next gravy train - we desperately need another Oliver Cromwell or Enoch Powell to sort out this mess were in now
Not holding my breath whilst paddling my own canoe!

[An Teallach]

Tablet Eraser wrote:
A culture that didn't need the Human Rights Act to tell it how to treat people with decency and respect.

An interesting thought from one who would be being treated with anything but decency and respect and would not be in his current profession were it not for the jurisprudence of the ECtHR.

The HRA does not adversely affect the fight against terrorism. Its repeal would have no effect on UK law whatsoever. It merely saves the bother of the 10+ years it takes to get to Strasbourg. It also helps ensure that we fight terrorism in such a manner that we don't create 10 terrorists for every one we capture or kill.

On the general subject, I tend to subscribe to the thought of Prof. Richard Dawkins: "There will always be a few evil men doing evil things. However, for good men to do evil takes religion."

[TheInquisitor]

The HRA does not adversely affect the fight against terrorism. Its repeal would have no effect on UK law whatsoever.
Not true, AT - it places some pretty severe restrictions on what the Intelligence services can do. It also gives socialist activists in the Judiciary the means to thwart any effective legislation we could enact, as well as an excuse to let both terrorists and common criminals get away with murder.

You are correct about the Strasbourg thing, however, if a piece of legislation has not been enacted in our own laws we can simply do what every other EU nation does with EU diktats it doesn't like - ie IGNORE THEM! What are they going to do, invade us to enforce their nonesense?

What we should do, of course, is both repeal the disastrous HRA AND withdraw (or at the very least demand derogation) from the pathetic, outdated treaty that spawned it. We would then be free to draft our own set of Human Rights laws - designed with the world we now live in in mind, not the idealistic world of the 1950's - ones that don't frustrate the important business of national security and law enforcement at every turn.

[RonO]

You will be assimilated. You will be assimilated. Sounds more like the Daleks & the Borg. What you going to do when they say no?

Lot of absolute crap in this thread about the US. Anyone that comes to the US can live whatever lifestyle they choose. And they do. If you want to become a citizen all you have to do is speak a few words of english, know who's the president and promise allegiance to the flag. Nothing in there about how to live your life. As a result there's thousands of different cultures and different lifestyles. It's a right all Americans have and it's written down in our constitution and enforced by law. We call it freedom.

[Jackonicko]

You can't force people to assimilate, or integrate of course, but you can pursue policies that encourage it, or you can pursue policies that discourage it.

The USA hasn't been discouraging assimilation (quite the reverse - its whole culture is based on assimilating waves of immigration) while we have been facillitating separate development and 'ghetto-isation'.

The idea that US citizens should know anything of the nation's history, constitution and politics, and a little of its language, and that they should swear alleigance is unexceptionable in the USA. If they want to be US citizens why would they not do that?

Over here, most of those things would be judged unacceptable infringements on the immigrant's rights.

Buoy,

Enoch Powell was undeniably a powerful orator, a great polemicist and an extremely clever man. Like many such people (Tony Benn, for example, or Oswald Moseley), however, he was not blessed with what you might call practical intelligence, and tottered close to the brink of being unhinged. You may applaud the Rivers of Blood speech, but I doubt you'd agree with his approach to Suez, nor his assessment (in February '43) that America (which he called "our terrible enemy", was a "greater peril than Germany or Japan ever were."

He was actually responsible for much of the early immigration, deliberately recruiting West Indian nurses as Minister for Health.

He was a poor minister, with no capacity for the hard work and tedious detail, and would have been an absolute disaster as PM, even without his barking mad ideas on race and immigration. Even in '68 (were you even alive?) re-emigration was a non-starter, and his prediction that the Black man would "have the whip hand" by 1983-88 was cretinous.

The immigrant groups we had then, who Powell was so afraid of, have largely integrated successfully, and are now making as great a contribution to UK society as you or I. Dredging Powell up now is entirely irrelevant, inappropriate, and pretty offensive, and surely only the terminally dim, or neo-fascist National Front and British Movement idiots would seriously admire the man's political legacy.

[tablet_eraser]

Jackonicko
Now it's my turn to applaud your excellent post. A perfect assessment of our country's last true demagogue.
You sound like a man I could have a few pints with!

[Sunfish]

Is there any truth in the rumor that the guys arrested in Britain have no passports, no airline tickets and no money, not to mention no explosives?

If this is indeed the case, and since passports take a considerable time to arrive, and airline tickets require legal tender to purchase, are we being conned again about the apprehended threat? The Government has "form" in this regard (remember WMD's?)

It would of course be convenient, taking the publics mind off of the mess that is Iraq, Afghanistan and now Lebanon and reinforcing the "war on terror" meme?

[Archimedes]

Slightly OT, but I'm not sure that Powell lacked a capacity for hard work - he was famous for his work rate when a student, and his two biographies suggest that his civil servants were impressed (and sometimes daunted) with his ability to get through long, tedious memoranda and where appropriate present his alternative view to the civil service within the space of an evening's work. In fact, his capacity for work is part of what made him slightly odd...

(BTW he was sacked from the Shadow Cabinet after the speech (he was shadow Sec of State for Defence rather than sent to NI), and the 'Rivers of Blood' speech - not that the phrase 'rivers of blood' appeared in it - was made at the Midland Hotel in Birmingham, rather than in the Commons.)

[Training Risky]

Over here, most of those things would be judged unacceptable infringements on the immigrant's rights.

Is that comment meant to imply that asking an immigrant to speak English, make sure his children learn English, and know a little about the country he lives in, is a bad thing?... Surely not!:ugh:

[walter kennedy]

Sunfish
Bush is making the most of it in planning an election strategy over the pond, I believe. And of course, it has taken the heat off the appalling campaign in Lebanon.

[Jackonicko]

TR,

I can't imagine that I'll ever have the chance to use the following phrase again, so I'll make the most of it:

"I agree with that frightful old scrote Tebbit on this!"

His famous cricket test seems to have value.

It strikes me that we should expect immigrants to adapt to British culture, to accept British values, to embrace a British identity, and to WANT to integrate and assimilate, and that in return, they should be welcomed, and shown tolerance and respect, and should be encouraged to keep those aspects of their culture that do not threaten ours, and that we should eagerly embrace those elements that will enrich ours.

I recognise that making immigrants undergo a 'Britishness test' (ensuring some knowledge of the nation's values, traditions, history, and politics, and expecting them to HAVE to know a little of our language) would be deemed unacceptable here, but I think I would favour such an approach, personally.

[Jackonicko]

Archimedes,

I thought I'd heared one of his civil servants saying that he worked increibly hard on what interested him, but ignored what did not.

[RonO]

"..its (US) whole culture is based on assimilating waves of immigration"

Baloney of the highest order. Immigrants were and are welcomed into the US and the constitution guarantees they could and can live any lifestyle & culture they choose. Do you think there is one notion of an ideal American that everyone has to comply with? Jeesh.

Anyone and any country that starts down a path of imposing their idea of values & cultures onto it's own citizens is starting down a very slippery slope. Past regimes that have done that have not fared well.

I repeat my question, what are you going to do with those that do not want to embrace your values & culture? What are you going to do with those that will not abandon parts or all of their culture that you deem to be threatening?

[SASless]

http://www.rpatrick.com/USA/americanism/

In 1915, Teddy Roosevelt provided his views on "Americanism" and being an immigrant to this country. He says it correctly I suggest.

It very easily could be applied to the UK and other European nations when considering immigrants taking citizenship as the concepts apply equally elsewhere about the world.

[tablet_eraser]

Oh, come on! Let's apply some common-sense to the theory that the Government is orchestrating this situation to "cover up" or distract us from what's going on in Iraq, Afghanistan and Lebanon:

1. What's going on in Lebanon has nothing to do with this country. It is in the news every single day. It is impossible not to know what's happening. The UK voted for UN resolution 1701 sanctioning an increased UN force in Lebanon. Iraq and Afghanistan are a permanent feature in the news. Any distraction would be of extremely short-term benefit, and hardly worth the bother of an enormous consipracy.

2. The Pakistani intelligence service, the ISI, has confirmed its involvement in the intelligence operation prior to these arrests. Are we supposed to believe that Pakistan is complicit in a UK conspiracy to "cover up" the actions of Israel, a country that Pakistan despises, or to help distract a foreign country's populace from its actions in the Middle East?

3. The Department of Transport has imposed crushingly tight restrictions on hand luggage in response to the threat, and hundreds of flights have been cancelled. Business leaders are warning that the imposition of additional security will cost millions. The restrictions were planned at a meeting of COBRA with civil servants present. No matter how loyal our Civil Service may be, I contend that it would be impossible to maintain a cover-up on this scale with so many people involved. It didn't work with WMD.

4. The Metropolitan Police have confirmed that they have been maintaining a covert surveillance operation connected with this plot for over a year. So, did the Government know a year ago that Israel would be attacking Lebanon at the moment? Has it been maintaining this operation, at a cost of unknown hundreds of thousands, just in case it felt the need to divert our attention from ongoing operations?

I dislike this Government with every fibre of my being. They've done one or two good things, but in most respects they have changed this country for the worse. However, I simply cannot believe that the current travails are part of an orchestrated consipracy, involving 3 government departments and a foreign Government, to terrify the people of this country. And I think it's irresponsible to speculate that that might be the case, because trivialising or dismissing the current situation is precisely the opposite to what we should be doing.

[tablet_eraser]

Do you think there is one notion of an ideal American that everyone has to comply with?
I'd suggest that outright hatred of the United States, belief in mass-murder to achieve a 100% change in the laws of the country, incitement to racial hatred and defence of 9/11 might be qualities you don't want in a new citizen. Neither do we. Yet the fact remains that a tiny minority of immigrants and even some 2nd generation Britons feel sufficiently separate from the rest of our culture to maintain those beliefs. Those are the people we need to deal with. Peaceful, hard-working immigrants who are proud of their adopted culture or at least willing to conform to its basic requirements (rule of law, respect for fellow citizens, etc) do not pose a threat to our way of life.

So yes, I think it is necessary for new immigrants - much as they might contribute to our country in terms of their former cultures - to accept our way of life, and not seek to change it through anything other than democratic means.

What are you going to do with those that will not abandon parts or all of their culture that you deem to be threatening?
Incitement to racial hatred, racism, extreme sexism, failure to accept the diversity of religion in this country, preaching hatred, praising suicide bombers, supporting 9/11, celebrating 7/7... those are threatening parts of radicalised Islamic fundamentalism. So, in answer to your question, I'd suggest removing the threat to the public by putting such individuals on trial and, if found guilty, putting them away for a long, long time. Does that sound unreasonable?

[Jackonicko]

"..its (US) whole culture is based on assimilating waves of immigration"

"Baloney of the highest order. Immigrants were and are welcomed into the US and the constitution guarantees they could and can live any lifestyle & culture they choose. Do you think there is one notion of an ideal American that everyone has to comply with? Jeesh."

It's a rainbow nation, sure. It's a tolerant rainbow nation. It's diverse. But the very fact that you all stand for the same anthem, all pledge to the flag at school (and very few of you see anything odd in this) indicates to me that your immigrants quickly come to share the same core values. When it's a big deal that the Hispanics want to sing the same anthem, to the same tune, but in Spanish, that indicates to me that you have nothing like the disconnection that we have with huge sections of our Pakistani population. It's said that 25% of our Moslem population don't condemn 7/7. Could you say the same of any section of the US population about 9/11.

[RonO]

tablet eraser, you seem to equate folks living a different life style, following a different religion and maintaining their own culture with terrorists. What are you going to do? Put every british muslim in prison?

SASles, you need to spend more time talking with your fellow Americans of all cultures before spouting that 100 year old crap from Roosevelt.

Jacko, I bet I could find you 25% Americans that have never heard of 9/11. So what? If you think your problems will be cured by singing the anthem & kids reciting to the flag (which by the way is not done at all US schools), then you go for it girl :ok:

[SASless]

RonO dear lad,

Perhaps if you slowed your speed reading pace and devoted some time towards comprehension, you might find the 100 year old crap a bit more timely than it would appear.

Teddy in the context of Americanism said much what Jacko and several others here see as being the root of the terrorism problem the UK faces now and other EU nations are also experiencing.

It does not make Teddy right, a reader of the future, but it sure does bear reading and thinking about.

Not so long ago there was a thread about dual citizenships in this forum. If I had been thinking then, I would have brought this thing by Teddy up then but it slipped my mind.

If Teddy could see this in 1915....and articulate his views as he did....then perhaps the societal changes since then have not been for the best of the country that does not cling to such concepts regarding citizenship and patriotism for what ever reason or whatever country it might be.

[tablet_eraser]

tablet eraser, you seem to equate folks living a different life style, following a different religion and maintaining their own culture with terrorists. What are you going to do? Put every british muslim in prison?

Do I? When have I said that all muslims are terrorists?

Read what I've said carefully before accusing me of xeonophobia or racism, please. I actually said I will accept immigrants who are willing to accept, at the very least, the rule of law. Terrorists do not conform to that very basic requirement. I would rather they were proud of being British, and had the "multiculturalist" agenda not encouraged the ghettoisation of communities I don't think it would be such a problem.

More specificially, I said that the qualities I want to see eradicated are:

Incitement to racial hatred, racism, extreme sexism, failure to accept the diversity of religion in this country, preaching hatred, praising suicide bombers, supporting 9/11, celebrating 7/7... those are threatening parts of radicalised Islamic fundamentalism.

Now tell me, should I accept these as valid differences, or wish to see them removed? I don't dislike muslims at all. But I despise the Islamic fundamentalists who want to destroy my culture because "multiculturalism" has given them the space to develop their ideological, pathological hatred of democracy.

[RonO]

If all you meant was that immigrants should observe the law then I apologise because I agree. Seems bleedin obvious tho. Problem is sorting out them that break the law from the rest. Not sure making them all play cricket or saluting the flag is going to achieve that. I know it doesn't work where I live despite claims above to the contrary.

[RonO]

SAless old bean, took your advice and read Teddy again.

Still think it's a bunch of politician crappola.

Why? because he tells us all to defy our human nature to define ourselves by our backgrounds & upbringing before the place we choose to live. He goes further and labels people that do as a traitors to the United States. I think it's utter crap to label folks that call themselves Afro-American, Japanese-American, Italian-American, Chinese-American etc as traitors that should not be trusted to vote in the best interests of the US. Utter crap.

Presumably he would criticize the Welsh & Scots for not calling themselves British.

[tablet_eraser]

RonO

Thanks, I did think it might be a misunderstanding.

I feel I should explain the "Cricket Test". Lord Tebbit - renowned ultra Right-wing peer - suggested that one can tell if someone is truly integrated to their addopted community, especially at the second generation, by who they support at cricket or, indeed, any other sport. So, those Britons who support Pakistan are not sufficiently integrated with their home community. It's a slightly weak proposition, but I'm sure you can see why it can be considered an indicator of whether someone is adopting Britain as their home nation (especially if they've been born and raised there!).

The point about Scots and Welsh people doesn't really hold water because we are a United Kingdom and those nations (with England and Northern Ireland) are by their nature British anyway. I'm a Briton, and equally I'm an Englishman. It's up to me to choose which I describe myself as. I would no more claim that someone who identifies as Scottish doesn't conform to British culture than I'd claim the same about a Hawaiian and US culture. They're all part of the same thing.

[modtinbasher]

Do I? When have I said that all muslims are terrorists?

Read what I've said carefully before accusing me of xeonophobia or racism, please. I actually said I will accept immigrants who are willing to accept, at the very least, the rule of law. Terrorists do not conform to that very basic requirement. I would rather they were proud of being British, and had the "multiculturalist" agenda not encouraged the ghettoisation of communities I don't think it would be such a problem.

More specificially, I said that the qualities I want to see eradicated are:



Now tell me, should I accept these as valid differences, or wish to see them removed? I don't dislike muslims at all. But I despise the Islamic fundamentalists who want to destroy my culture because "multiculturalism" has given them the space to develop their ideological, pathological hatred of democracy.

Maybe you will dislike them a bit when we are all living under Sha'ria Law, something that our "multiculturist" leaders are discussing as we speak. The Muslim Council has spoken, their "dis-affected" youth would be a lot happier if the UK was so run, and it will come to pass, as was once said. Our beloved leaders capitulated with the IRA (whatever that cost and I bet it was a lot) and I don't see much difference with this crowd now! I genuinely used to fear death, but now that I'm in my twilight years and see what is happening to my beloved England, I'm ready to meet my maker at any time, but I will do so as a Christian, despite anything, thank you very much.

[tablet_eraser]

Peter Costello, the Australian Treasurer, sums up my views quite nicely:
"If those are not your values, if you want a country which has Sharia law or a theocratic state, then Australia is not for you," he said on national
television.
"I'd be saying to clerics who are teaching that there are two laws governing people in Australia, one the Australian law and another the Islamic law, that is false. If you can't agree with parliamentary law, independent courts, democracy, and would prefer Sharia law and have the opportunity to go to another country, which practices it, perhaps, then, that's a better option," Costello said.
Live and let live. But if people try to kill our culture, as I've said over and over again, they need to be dealt with appropriately. Whether they are new to this country or not.

[modtinbasher]

Peter Costello, the Australian Treasurer, sums up my views quite nicely:

Live and let live. But if people try to kill our culture, as I've said over and over again, they need to be dealt with appropriately. Whether they are new to this country or not.

Tablet, my views entirely! But what will it take and when will "they" take heed? Sorry, stupid question ......

[SASless]

Ah but it is so subtle sometimes.....MacDonalds, Budweiser, Winstons, Levi's, Ford.....

[tablet_eraser]

... none of which have used mass murder as a means of getting people to adopt them.

[SASless]

Wait until KFC has a run of food poisoning!:E

[RonO]

Tablet, appreciate the Tebbit explanation. Still think it's nonsense in the same category as Teddy R. We could test it. Have Tebbit come over to a Chicago St Patrick's day and pick a 2nd generation Irishman drapped with an Irish flag drinking green beer and singing Irish songs and tell him that he's a traitor to America. Resulting conversation shouldn't last too long.

Eating MacDonalds doesn't kill you?? I beg to differ :)

[walter kennedy]

SASless
<< Ah but it is so subtle sometimes.....MacDonalds, Budweiser, Winstons, Levi's, Ford.....>>
to which one could add:
women’s liberation,
secular humanism,
debt,
de-industrialisation forcing international interdependence,
de-nationalisation,
overwhelming immigation,
unbridled monopoly capitalism,
and a few other things that change national culture -
Worked on us!
.
Whatever, I wholeheartedly agree with the quote in Tablet eraser’s post::
<< Live and let live. But if people try to kill our culture, as I've said over and over again, they need to be dealt with appropriately. Whether they are new to this country or not.>>
.
(This is meant to be tongue in cheek so don’t get too stirred up.):E

[SASless]

RonO,

Your referral to the Irishman explains you did not grasp what Teddy said. Your very statement confirms Ol' Teddy....the fellow might be Irish American by heritage but when one suggests he is a traitor to America by singing along with Tommy Makem and the Clancy Brothers.....and thumps the accuser....then that is as Teddy called it. Be what you want to be....but your first allegiance is to your flag and country.

He isn't upset you called him Irish, drunk, a bad singer, but kicked yer butt because you suggested he was not a true American.

You understand the concept but are having some problems seeing it through.:D

[pr00ne]

modtinbasher,

What on earth are you prattling on about?

“When we are all living under Sha’ria law?” There is less chance of that happening in any western democracy than there is of the Liberal Democrats coming to power in the UK!

As for it being discussed “by our multiculturist leaders as we speak” I think that has to be perhaps the most inaccurate, deluded and misinformed statement that I have ever seen on the many pages of pprune, and that is saying something!

Do you realise what a small percentage of the UK population is made up of practicing Muslims? And that within that tiny minority the percentage who practice one or other of the many variations of Sha’ria law is even smaller so as to be almost infinitesimal!

It WILL come to pass? What utter nonsense!

If our “beloved leaders” (your words NOT mine!) capitulated to the IRA then how come that there is not currently a Marxist/Socialist Government ruling over a united Ireland with all traces of protestant influence removed? THAT was the aim of the IRA so I can only conclude that you have a very dim understanding of what capitulation actually means!

Your “beloved England” is one of the most successful multicultural democracies on the face of this planet, a process that has been ever evolving and progressing for over a thousand years, long may it continue in such a successful vein!

As for dying a Christian, if you study all of the many and various versions and variants of Sha’ria law you will see that they all have one common theme, that non Muslims living in a state that is ruled by Sha’ria law follow the rules of their own community, are not governed by Sha'ria law, and may worship accordingly. A practice hardly followed by the supposedly pro-western states such as Saudi Arabia!
I also advise you to look much closer to home before you start attacking Sha’ria Law. Try reading the Old Testament and see if you are really living your life according to its dictats……………….

Pr00ne.

[brakedwell]

Funny how the the Unfit for Purpose Home Office has been relegated to yesterday's news.
Funny how John Reid is permanently on our TV screens talking tough and scaring the sh*t out of us.
I would be interested to know who organised the hastily convened EU Interior Ministers' Conference while B Liar was sipping sundowners in Barbados.
I would be interested to know what "father" Brown thinks about a reformed Scottish Communist hogging the limelight and making like a statesman while speechifying in regretful English.
And just what has the security clamp down acheived, other than chaos?

[[email protected]]

modtinbasher,
What on earth are you prattling on about?
“When we are all living under Sha’ria law?” There is less chance of that happening in any western democracy than there is of the Liberal Democrats coming to power in the UK!
As for it being discussed “by our multiculturist leaders as we speak” I think that has to be perhaps the most inaccurate, deluded and misinformed statement that I have ever seen on the many pages of pprune, and that is saying something!
Pr00ne.

You don't believe it? The following links aren't about the UK, but about another "multicultural society" not too different from our own. Read them, the attempt was blocked, but it HAS been discussed. Coming to a politician's office near you ....

http://news.bbc.co.uk/1/hi/programmes/from_our_own_correspondent/3599264.stm

http://www.youmeworks.com/sharia_canada.html

http://www.csmonitor.com/2004/0810/p01s03-woam.html

Be afraid, be very afraid.

[pr00ne]

[email protected],

Oh for goodness sake, this is getting worse than the Daily Mail!

Why on earth should I, or anyone else for that matter, be in the least bothered by that set of alarmist nonsense?

So, a Muslim lawyer proposed something that was not taken up becasue it doesn't fit canada's constitution, was deeply unpopular and was resisted by various other minority groups? Where on earth is the story in that?

Pure stuff and nonsense!

Be afraid? More like be tempted to have a good giggle!

[modtinbasher]

[email protected],

Oh for goodness sake, this is getting worse than the Daily Mail!

Why on earth should I, or anyone else for that matter, be in the least bothered by that set of alarmist nonsense?

So, a Muslim lawyer proposed something that was not taken up becasue it doesn't fit canada's constitution, was deeply unpopular and was resisted by various other minority groups? Where on earth is the story in that?

Pure stuff and nonsense!

Be afraid? More like be tempted to have a good giggle!

Is it not true that the powers in Canada are discontinuing all white immigrants as opposed to the other sort with effect from 2012? Giggle ye not, it is coming to pass.......

[pr00ne]

modtinbasher,

Seeing as the Canadian Minister of Citizenship and Immigration has just launched a campaign to increase the number of immigrants to Canada, especially Atlantic Canada, with special emphasis on Europe, I think you are talking hogwash. As if Quebec would EVER discriminate against white French immigrants, they run their own independent immigration service for heaven sake!

[RonO]

SASless, apppreciate the kind words about my reading comprehension. Still think you & teddy ain't living in the world I live in. Our Irishman is a lot more complex than you credit. If you think that him living in the US, saluting the flag at school, and singing the anthem at Soldier Field has made him a true patriot then you are sadly mistaken.

[SASless]

Like the Irishmen of the Fighting 69th?

[RonO]

...and they fought and died because they saluted the flag as schoolkids & sung the anthem at football games or read a speech by Teddy in 1916 - get real.