Mid-air bomb plot 'a major threat

[WA-CEET]

Heathrow Closed to all flights not already airborne
Brussels cancels all flights to UK
Lufthansa cancels all to UK
http://www.news.com.au/story/0,23599,20081564-2,00.html

[Mr.Buzzy]

Why don't we have consistent security screening of ALL airside staff at ALL airports????? Why are some airside staff treated like criminals while going to work, while others (generally with grubbier pasts) still waltz airside each day without a glance?????

WAKE UP AUSTRALIA!!!!!!!!!!

Forget about looking for Nanna's "sinister" nail clippers! Get real and start looking for sinister people! Find them, ban them and tell the bleeding heart, whale kissing, moon maidens that repeatedly defend the civil rights of such pigs to GET F#$KED!

Time to take a hard line and get real about protecting Australians! Start barking up the right trees! Better to be seen as a nation of c*&ts that a nation of DEAD c*&nts!

bbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz z

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Give it a few years and PAX will have to fly nude with no other items, with checked baggage flying on a dedicated freighter..

Although, as long as they still serve alcohol it probably will be a most enjoyable nude flight (for some) :}

With the no liquids thing.. how long before no catering is allowed. Perhaps just put pax to sleep with drugs then no-one can do anything :E

[Pass-A-Frozo]

Actually.. given the pictures on the news of thousands of people in a queue to get through security. Why do the naughty people even bother trying to bomb a plane when they could just walk into the terminal and kill 5x more people in the queue. :(

unfortunately these people will ruin air travel for all and result in a decline in leasure travel. I for one don't mind lining up for security screening but there has to be a better way. :uhoh:

[J430]

Good old Buzzy has been quiet of late, did Wooms have anything to do with this?

Anyway this time he has a VERY VAILD POINT!!:D

Cheers
J:ok:

[Taildragger67]

Actually.. given the pictures on the news of thousands of people in a queue to get through security. Why do the naughty people even bother trying to bomb a plane when they could just walk into the terminal and kill 5x more people in the queue. :(
unfortunately these people will ruin air travel for all and result in a decline in leasure travel. I for one don't mind lining up for security screening but there has to be a better way. :uhoh:

Your first idea - already been done - Ben Gurion Airport, Tel Aviv, May 1972.

Second idea - there is a better way: five-year validity on passports (rather than ten) and more stringent checks when you apply for one; the shorter validity means more frequent checks. Nought to hide, nought to fear from a bit of probing.

Don't like your background being looked into? Fine, you have a choice - fly and have your background looked at or don't fly and keep your background to yourself.

Now I'm not trying to stir or re-open the ASIC debate here, but how's this for logic: if airside workers need an ASIC - and so have their backgrounds checked - then it follows that others who go airside (ie. passengers) should also have their backgrounds checked. OK, punters might only go airside once in a blue moon, but a miscreant only has to get lucky once.

Yes it would cost more, but I'd pay it for peace of mind. And a seat on your NudeAir flight.

[Peter Fanelli]

WAKE UP AUSTRALIA!!!!!!!!!!

Forget about looking for Nanna's "sinister" nail clippers! Get real and start looking for sinister people! Find them, ban them and tell the bleeding heart, whale kissing, moon maidens that repeatedly defend the civil rights of such pigs to GET F#$KED!

Time to take a hard line and get real about protecting Australians! Start barking up the right trees! Better to be seen as a nation of c*&ts that a nation of DEAD c*&nts!




Couldn't agree more on that. It seems to me that the world has to have a bully somewhere. It used to be the soviet union but they got knocked off their perch. Now the worlds bully is the terrorist movement and as long as the remaining world powers continue with this politically correct "let's all be nice" crap, we're fornicated. I say nuke the middle east and get it over and done with, sure there'd be condemnation from the rest of the world, but that would soon go away after a couple of years of true world peace.

[Woomera]

Tailie. I think you're overlooking the fact that in some countries even Dr Crippen could get a Police Clearance and valid Passport!!!

But I'm rather partial to Frozo's kinky suggestion!!!

:} :}

Sunny Woomera

[Led Zep]

Why don't we have consistent security screening of ALL airside staff at ALL airports????? Why are some airside staff treated like criminals while going to work, while others (generally with grubbier pasts) still waltz airside each day without a glance?????

WAKE UP AUSTRALIA!!!!!!!!!!

Forget about looking for Nanna's "sinister" nail clippers! Get real and start looking for sinister people! Find them, ban them and tell the bleeding heart, whale kissing, moon maidens that repeatedly defend the civil rights of such pigs to GET F#$KED!

Time to take a hard line and get real about protecting Australians! Start barking up the right trees! Better to be seen as a nation of c*&ts that a nation of DEAD c*&nts!

bbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzbbbbbbbbbzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz z
:D Well bloody said.

Not nice! :mad: Woomera

And I can just see Woomera enjoying himself flying on the cheapest possible LLC with the smallest seat-pitch in the industry...in his requested middle seat in the centre row. :E

"Hmm, need to get up and walk around, excuse me...:}...excuse me...:}...mmm excuse me! :}


:\

[WangFunk]

I was just browsing through cable TV and I came across Air Crash Investigation, PAL flight 434!!

Three minutes into watching it I noticed that this documentary is resembling more and more what 'nearly' happened over in the UK/USA just recently. Couldnt help but think these kind of programs might be sending the wrong messages to the wrong people??

What do you think?

[gassed budgie]

Yes, it is harsh, inflamatory and totally unnecessary. :mad: Woomera

That's a little harsh Zep.
Israel is the only country in the region that operates under the same/similar democratic principles that we purport to. Any major conflict that has occurred in the middle east over the last few decades in which Israel has been involved, has been started by the guys on the other side of the fence.
Those same countries have sat idley by over the past 25 years with a rather smug look on their collective faces and have been more than happy for Iran to do their bidding and stick it up Israel, safe in the knowledge that they could then say "well, it wasn't us".
The fact of the matter is if it wasn't for the oil, the rest of the world would have passed the Arabs by decades ago. The Arab world is rotting on the vine.
Iran is responsible directly and indirectly for most of what goes under the name of terrorism today. That's what the Arab world has achieved by their inaction.
They now have a country right next door that is racing towards obtaining nuclear weapons capability as quickly as they can possibly go. The Saudies, the Egyptions, the Jordanians are worried big time. Serve the f*%#@'s right.
The clerics that have the ultimate say in Iran are well and truly rooted in the seventh century. The regime would have to be the most irresponsible, tyranical, oppressive, dictatorial, authoritarian, contemtable, despotic group of collective assholes on the planet.
And I'm sick and tired that such a backward horde of pr!cks are creating and getting away with so much mayhem. Unfortunately because they're sitting on top of so much oil, I can't see them being nuked anytime soon.
What a shame!
I despise them and what they stand for.
Basically, I want them drawn and quartered, I want them on the rack, I want them electrocuted, I want them injected with some sort of nasty virus, I want them fried, I want them shot, I want them drowned, I want them blown into a million bits, I want them stone motherless f#@%^ing dead!
If there's a button that can be pushed somewhere to achieve this, I'm first inline!!!
..........better crawl back into bed I think.

[Keg]

Basically, I want them drawn and quartered, I want them on the rack, I want them electrocuted, I want them injected with some sort of nasty virus, I want them fried, I want them shot, I want them drowned, I want them blown into a million bits, I want them stone motherless f#@%^ing dead!


Is it ironic that this is probably what they think of you too! The difference is that they have the means (or are seeking the means) to do it. For those interested in the differences between Islam and the west I can recommend two books. 'Islam in our backyard' is one of them and 'mosques and miracles' is the other!

[Capt Claret]

gassed budgie

It's enlightened post such as yours, and others of the same ilk, that ensure that world peace won't be known in our time.

My kids are half Egyptian but born and bred in Australia. On their behalf, I hope "the f*%#@'s get you first. :mad:

[Hempy]

nought to fear from a bit of probing...

but I do fear probing, I've seen Border Security :bored::ooh::eek::{

p.s never go and see Dr. Acula

[Ramboflyer 1]

Its true that religion is the root of all Evil and peace will never come until all religions are banned.
Just think how stupid it is, religion is chosen at birth by parents, It should not be allowed until a person is 21 and can decide for themselves.
The world could be such a great place but i do not see a very bright future , and the more miserable it becomes the quicker the end...

[Ron & Edna Johns]

Just don't try to take those books of yours through screening up in LHR, Keg..... "Tea and biccies, Mr Manning? I'd love to!"

[Woomera]

A word of caution before this thread heads any further down hill!

The Islamic religion does not promote violence and the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people, equally as frustrated and angered by the extremist zealots, as the rest of the world. Innocent Muslins are also suffering and dying.

All religions have their lunatic, zealot, fundamentalist fringe dwellers. Christian zealots throughout history, from the Inquisition, the KKK, to the more recent Jonestown People’s Temple and Waco Branch Davidians are no better than the fundamentalists behind the current terror scourge that has permeated our society.

Ill informed, bigoted and biased religious comment will not be tolerated on this forum.

The topic is “Mid-air bomb plot 'a major threat” which may be discussed – without ludicrous and unnecessary religious bigotry!

:mad:

Sunny Woomera

[Ultralights]

All religions have their lunatic, zealot, fundamentalist fringe dwellers. Christian zealots throughout history, from the Inquisition, the KKK, to the more recent Jonestown People’s Temple and Waco Branch Davidians are no better than the fundamentalists behind the current terror scourge that has permeated our society.
Sunny Woomera

Yes, but the religios extremist groups you have mentioned here have not declared a war on the entire Western society and made it their "god" given right to kill as many people as possible to gain access to whatever paradise they aspire to.

i would call the groups you mentioned more of a cult than a gloabl religios group with global influence.

[Raw Data]

This is probably a bad idea, but I have to correct Woomeras comments regarding what Islam teaches. I'm only offering this as a matter of fact, I have no axe to grind!

Islam, via the Koran, explicitly commands it's adherents to kill all those who are not Muslim, and in particular, Christians. The evidence for this is contained in Surah 5:9, which reads:-

"But when the forbidden months are past, then fight and slay the Pagans wherever you find them, and seize them, beleaguer them and lie in wait for them in every stratagem (of war) but if they repent, and establish regular prayers and practice regular charity, then open the way for them, for Allah is Oft-forgiving, Most Merciful."

"Forbidden months" may mean the month of Ramadan (forbidden for fighting- according to some) or in context it appears to mean months of treaty with the Pagans.

The word translated "Pagans" is literally "the associators" or those who have committed the crime of associating a partner with Allah. The Arabic verb is 'shirk', or to associate. The word 'musharikiin' means "associators".

This can only describe Christians, because Christians say (from a Muslim's perspective), that Jesus is equal to Allah. So a native Arabic reader sees "...kill the Christians wherever you find them...."

I would be the first to agree that the vast majority of Muslims are kind, hospitable, loving people. I have spent time in Arab countries and so have first-hand knowledge of this. I have friends who are muslims, and they are great people. However, I have also lived in Bradford and Birmingham in the UK, where the Madrassas (schools) routinely preach hatred and death to all westerners. Hundreds of thousands of young Muslims are being taught that Westerners are the enemy, and that death by strapping a bomb to your chest will bring great rewards in heaven. This is well-known, particularly since 9/11.

The danger of Islam is that it provides a mechanism for mobilising an army, bent on the destruction of anyone who does not convert to Islam. It may not be actively doing this in NZ or Oz, but it is happening in many other countries, including the UK - as we have seen in the last weeks in news reports, with Tony Blair being threatened with death if he does not convert.

Anyway, I offer that purely to redress the balance, as the PC thing to do is to say that Islam is a peaceful religion. By it's own admission, it isn't. Bush got it right the other day when he referred to a "war with Islamic fascists".

[MOR]

Yes, I must take issue with Woomera too. Before I do, let me say that commenting on these issues in an intellectually honest way is not bigotry. Hopefully we will not fall victim to mindless PC censorship in this discussion.

For a start, the Inquisition and the KKK have nothing, fundamentally, to do with Christianity. The first was political, the second supremacist, and although both aligned themselves with Christianity, there is nothing in that faith that permits or encourages either. Jonestown (The Peoples Temple) started out Christian, but went off the rails and ended up with virtually no Christian content - the manner of their deaths being an affront to Christian teaching. The Branch Davidians were closer to Christianity, and in their case their infamy has more to do with the manner of their ending than what they actually believed.

The big difference between Islam and virtually all other religions, is that Islam not only encourages the killing of those who are not adherents, but it also puts in place a legal framework that permits the routine beheading or amputation of those who fail to adhere to what is a very rigid legal framework. How either of those two characteristics can exist in a religion that is described as "peaceful", is quite beyond me.

The leaders of the western countries that are aligned against terrorism, are stuck in a PC hell. They can't denounce Islam, but on the other hand, they know that the more violent teachings of the Koran - the bits that nobody wants to talk about - are how the fundamentalists justify themselves to the Muslim world. Eventually, somebody is going to have to call a spade a spade, as Bush seems to be increasingly doing.

[*Lancer*]

The crusades weren't a Sunday barbeque...

[Gnadenburg]

The mussies have got the Airbus software codes. Type ISLAM into the FMGC guys- Watch! The power comes up a little and then a bearing and distance to Mecca!

One day soon, Airbus drivers all around the world, will push managed descent and nothing is going to happen. Hundreds of airliners will sail off into the sunset, toward an infidel abyss.

There is only one God. Allah Akbar. Allah Akbar.

[Keg]

The crusades weren't a Sunday barbeque...

No and the behaviour carried out during them is widely condemned by every Christian under the sun- the same as they condemn the behaviour of the branch davidians and those who kill abortionists but claim to be Christian. Do we see the same level of condemnation about the acts of Hezbollah, al qaeda, etc from the muslim community?

It is also true that there are violent parts of the bible when taken in isolation however if you read them in historical context then they are a lot more reasonable. Unfortunately, the Quran doesn't have the same context available to them being mostly in order of length rather than being in the order that Mohammed dictated them. The other thing worth considering is the way that the bible came into being as opposed to the quran. Very interesting when you start digging.

The important thing is to actually do the research rather than rely on the media. Consider both documents, how they came about and what they mean to the world- then make up your own mind. :D

[019360]

Well said Keg. Just because things....of whatever horrible nature...were ever done in the name of Christianity....doesn't mean that we cannot now say that they were wrong then and would be wrong now. A sentiment sadly lacking from apologists for the terrorists.
Thank goodness there are not now squads of aggrieved Christian suicide bombers wanting revenge.....

[Mstr Caution]

Keg

Always nice to read your balanced views of the world & the industry we serve.

However, if you are Arabic you would call the book of revelations the Qoran. For those (my self included) less versed on Mohammeds accounts the Koran or Korahn would suffice.:8

[Led Zep]

Okay, so my comments weren't liked but I fail to see how anyone could accept "nuking one people but not the other" as acceptable! :ooh:

Anyway, I was going to post some other stuff but at the risk of getting the thread locked I decided against it. :}
However I reckon whatever "organisation" behind this latest ploy is no doubt still laughing at the fact they managed to grind an entire transportation network across at least two nations to a halt without actually blowing anything up. Explosions or not they still managed to cause havoc. :hmm:

[Ramboflyer 1]

The crusades are still on ,nothing changed exept the weapons and technology.
As heavan is the greatest place in the afterlife then most muslims cannot wait to get there , but i think they want to take some infidels with them just in case they are wrong.
That way theyll have someting to attack on the other side.
Just wait till the first group let go their nukes , and its not a case of will but when.
The humans do not deserve the Earth....

Sadly

[Ultralights]

sadly the Use of nukes, by either side is the only thing i fear in this new WWIII, the constant flighting in the middle east has been going on over 2 Millenia, nothing has, and nothing will change in that part of the world. the only difference now is Modern technology has made it possible for these islamic fanatics to take their wars to the global stage.

it will be a truly sad day when one of these terrorist organisations gets hold of a nuclear weapon and detonates it on western soil, for it will spell the end for the entire Middle east region. it may not happen for another decade or more, i pray it never happens, but if it does, sure enough. the general pupulation of western society will say enough is enough and the entire region will be turned into the planets glass factory.

[*Lancer*]

So we're allowed to commit mass murder to provide for our own 'freedom'?

We need to avoid the same distorted, "we're right and you're wrong" view the terrorists use to justify their actions in the first place. It only facilitates inescapable conflict.

[airbusthreetwenty]

I'm going on holidays to the UK in September.

I'm not looking forward to being forced to check in my $2000+ SLR Camera.

[Ramboflyer 1]

Does that mean you cant buy duty free grog now .............
In case you give it to a terrorist onboard to detroy the aircraft you are flying when you could have done a better job yourself...

[MOR]

The crusades weren't a Sunday barbeque...

No, but they weren't anything to do with Christianity, either. It was a political objective (conquering the Holy Land and defeating Saladin) that was justified by claiming to be the will of God (the only way that soldiers could be recruited for the task). That is the thing with atrocities that have been committed in the name of Christianity - none of them are sanctioned by the book. That is also why you don't see Christians martyring themselves or declaring holy war - it is inconsistent with their faith.

The crusades are still on ,nothing changed exept the weapons and technology.

Assuming that you are talking about Iraq - I can't imagine what else you could be talking about - that has nothing to do with Christianity either, that is all about oil.

The humans do not deserve the Earth....

True!

[muddergoose]

Did anyone read the piece in Saturday's Melbourne Herald Sun, from a Russian perspective?
Is it just the "Coalition Of The Willing" that is experiencing this nonsense or is it all Countries?
The best way for a Government to assure its constituents is to create fear in their minds in the first place then set out to assure them! Now let us offer our thanks and praise to the most dominant religion (belief system) of them all... George Bush.
I guess it has kept the "War Against Terror" fresh in the minds of Aussies given all that is going on between Israel and Lebanon. After all, they have been media hoggs for the last 3 -4 week

[tinpis]

Take the train.:hmm:

[Ultralights]

Take the train

Madrid? London bombings...

ill stick to my car thanks.
or my Own plane.

[OzExpat]

A320... I'm off to the UK a bit later this month, so I'll "see" yer AUD2K SLR and raise with a AUD 3K Lappy!:eek:

[Lord Snot]

Any major conflict that has occurred in the middle east over the last few decades in which Israel has been involved, has been started by the guys on the other side of the fence.Apart from the 1967 Six Day War, of course....

Iran is responsible directly and indirectly for most of what goes under the name of terrorism today. That's what the Arab world has achieved by their inaction.Don't forget the Pakis, they're no slouches in the world of international terrorism these days.

I'm sick and tired that such a backward horde of pr!cks are creating and getting away with so much mayhem. I hear you brother.... :ok:

I despise them and what they stand for.I fully understand the sentiment. People who are caught in the middle like CC, already mentioned above, I sympathise with but having been all over the ME, the reality is the entire place is filled with hot-head, easily-offended, quick-to-anger people who are all deluded into banging their heads 5 times a day and who, although they may not be violent themselves, are certainly not particularly bothered when a western target is struck.

And why should they be, for them the west is "the other side", hated or not. Just as we choose our side. The sad part is, we encourage them to choose their ways in our own countries whilst they are smart (or cunning) enough to stamp that sort of dissension out in their own countries.

How many churches are there in Saudi Arabia?

The crusades weren't a Sunday barbeque...


No and the behaviour carried out during them is widely condemned by every Christian under the sunNot by this one.

[Sunfish]

The trouble is that we have been co-opted into an unwinnable "war on terror" that can never be won because terrorism is a tactic, not a nation state. We might just as well have a "war on thunderstorms".

Willingness to commit terrorism is a state of mind that is not easily detectable. The means to commit an act of terrorism can be a contact lens cleaner bottle of liquid, or a hammer, or a wrench, or a match.

The only sensible statement I've seen on the subject was from a retired British policeman who stated "communities are the only vehicles that can fight terror", and I think he is absolutely right.

If you look at the muslim community that was home to some of those currently alleged to be terrorists, its a pretty sorry dead end mess.

[Ron & Edna Johns]

I've been saying exactly the same thing for the last 5 years, Sunfish. However, from Bush and Howard downwards, it's always been too politcally incorrect to say what it's REALLY a war on...............

[Chimbu chuckles]

I live in an Asian Islamic country and see a very great difference between it and ME and west asian Muslim countries.

The difference between the peaceful Islamic countries and the violent ones is simple...standard of living.

In Malaysia and Brunei essentially everyone has a good standard of living and is well educated...the same is true to a lesser extent in Indonesia....and yes I know the Bali bombers are Indonesian...those 20 individuals as well as the other 290 million who were as horrified as we were.

You don't see much in the way of anti western sentiment in these places...what little you do see is a vague anti US/Isreal sentiment but they don't feel strong enough about it to really be bothered one way or another.

The violence in the Islamic parts of southern Thailand is not directed at the west but at the Thai Govt...because that part of Thailand is fairly poverty stricken....same thing in the southern Philipines...small groups of unhappy young men attacking their respective Govts.

In Iraq there was no anti western sentiment (in the population) until the west went in and completely fecked up getting rid of Saddam.

I have been to Pakistan and Iran post 911 and did not detect the slightest anti western sentiment in the people I met and dealt with....some people asked if I was American and that was it...they smiled broadly when I said no. The Iranian Govt is fairly fundamentalist in its views but the population is certanly not. Iranians are not Arabs they are Persian..there is a difference. Iranians by nature are very moderate in their outlook. Pakistan is only a center of terrorism because so much of the place is completely beyond any Govts control...it's western border country is truly the wild west...it is essentially a geographically handy place for feckwits to hide and no bastard will ever find them....likewise Afghansitan.

Iraq, Lebanon, Syria, Turkey, Palestine, Egypt, Jordan, Malaysia, Indonesia, Brunei and a host of other Islamic countries have minority Christian populations who worship in churches openly and without drama. If the Quiran really said kill all christians where-ever you find them surely they would start with the people 3 streets across just because they were handy....but they don't. Islam in fact believes that JC was a great prophet...not the son of god but definately a cool dude.

The common factor in all this terrorist BS is a small group of radicals with unlimited access to LOTS of poor, angry, disaffected young men. Rather like the IRA really.

And therein lays another truth. Islamic Terrorism is to Islam as Irish Republican Terrorism was to Catholicism. Basically **** all.

Seperate 'angry and disaffected' from 'young man' and you'd go a long way to solving terrorism...what 17 year old with a sense of a happy, fulfilling, positive future will willingly strap a bomb to himself?

I would suggest the number would be so small, but not zero, as to be an insignificant problem as opposed to the all consuming problem we seem to have now.

When Islamic countries in the ME are not run by dictators who hoard the resources of their countries unto themsleves we might have a chance to live in a peaceful world...because the grunt labour will have been removed from the clutches of the fundamentalists.

Hezbollah and Hamas is a slightly different version of that same problem.

Like North Korea is the last bastian of fundamentalist Marxist doctrine, Hezbollah is the last really big group who's avowed policy is the destruction of the State of Israel. Everyone else in the Region, certainly all the nation states, has had a go and received a sound flogging, subsequently given up, and made permanent peace with Israel. Hezbollah and Hamas are the last two groups hanging on to power, and that is what it's about, by attacking the State of Israel...and Iranian Clerics are happy to feed them money and whatever else they need to keep bashing away at a dead idea...maintaining a local boogy man...ending the state of Israel.

Hamas and the PLO under Arafat DID NOT want peace because then Arafat and his cohort would lose power. Arafat died and there seemed a chance to resolve the Palestinian problems...but Hamas got stuck in to stir things up so the west bank is in turmoil too....funny that...when there is a vague chance that Palestine might get what they apparently want...autonomy...Hamas and Hezbollah start a war. Hezbollah got what they wanted 6 years ago when the Israelis pulled out of southern Lebanon..so they spent 6 years hoarding things 'what go bang' and digging fighting positions then attacked Israel.

Do you think the populations under their control voted for it? Of course not...but it aint hard to convince a population living in poverty that the big boogy man who lives over there is attacking us again..for no reason....they have been at it so long nobody in the general population can remember who started what...The Israelis keep bombing us so our angry, dissaffected young men go to defend us with the only weapon they have....or is it the other way around...who stands to lose the most if the general population works it out?

Not the Israelis that is certain...maybe the leadership of Hamas and Hezbollah?

Syria's big 'want' is the Gollan Heights back....Israel kept them after Syria attacked them one time. Lets see the last time Israel gave back territory it was used as a quiet spot to build an arsenal...what do we think will happen if Israel gives Syria an elevated quiet spot....one with a really good view of Israel? Does anyone think that Hezbolah might set up shop?

Tomorrow, actually today Oz time, I will operate LHR-DXB and I will fly over Beirut and about 20nm east of Damascus...which is in the Bekaa Valley just north of the Gollan Heights...which is a mountain chain that separates Syria from Israel. That whole portion of the flight, from overhead Beirut to the Syrian/Jordanian border, will be about 30 minutes...it aint a very wide area...a crossroads is a good analogy... and yes, you can watch the war happening under you as you fly by.

[The_Cutest_of_Borg]

Good post there Chuck but I am not sure if I agree that the problem comes purely from poor disaffected countries. The London Bombers and probably most of the conspirators in this plot would not fit that description.

The views expressed by one of Britains top policemen in the SMH article:
http://www.smh.com.au/news/world/face-up-to-your-problem-muslims-told/2006/08/13/1155407675136.html would probably encapsulate the feelings of most people these days, with the exception of the PC brigade.

Profiling however would not have caught David Hicks or the member of this plot who was an Islamic convert. Terrorists organisations take advantage of the idealism of youth and the tendency of young people to see things in shades of black or white, for their purposes. You will never see the Bin Ladens of this world strapping a bomb to themselves, they think they have too much to live for, such as a Pan Islamic Superstate headed by... well... themselves.

Maybe we should see what would happen if we suggested that anyone under 30, regardless of race or religion should be singled out for special searches. Now that would be a debate worth watching!

[Chimbu chuckles]

The Islamic youth of Britain, or at least enough of them, are dissaffected...many may be educated but that is just one part of the issue....you're right though. It's no real challenge for people of a certain 'talent' to wind up young men who feel a bit angry about this or that and turn a very few into terror bombers...so in that sense yes it is a Muslim community problem on one level.

Unfortunately the violence in Spain last year actually succeeded...changed the govt of the day and the incoming govt changed their foriegn policy. That has bolstered the fundamentalists...if they ever get the Brits or Yanks..or heaven forbid the Australian Govt to base the foriegn policies on 'what the Islamists think might be ok' we are ALL well and truly fecked....on that level it is our problem.

Yes the Islamists want a world wide Islamic Kalifat based around Sharia...but do you think they have told the grunt labour that?

What I find interesting about this latest drama here in London is the 'system' actually worked and stopped them/caught them...but still the mayhem at the airports?

I find it a little hard to work out why they would try and sneak explosives onto aircraft at LHR...when it would be so easy to smuggle a dozen MANPADS into SE England and sit in a tree copse in the middle of an otherwise empty field within 5nm of LHR, Gatwick, Stansted or Manchester and simply shoot down airliners as they file past between 4000 and 8000' on arrival/departure...a much more powerful statement than 3 or 4 widebodies blowing up over the Atlantic out of view.

[airbusthreetwenty]

A320... I'm off to the UK a bit later this month, so I'll "see" yer AUD2K SLR and raise with a AUD 3K Lappy!:eek:

Fear not Oz....

UK reduces threat level

Earlier, Britain reduced its security threat level from "critical" to the "severe" level, where it has been for most of the past year.
The Government raised the threat level to "critical" - the highest of five levels - on Thursday before arresting 24 people who were allegedly plotting to blow up US-bound passenger jets.
The Department for Transport's website says following the downgrade of the threat level, passengers will be allowed to carry one item of hand baggage through the airport security search point.
But the ban on liquids remains, with the few exceptions being prescription medicines in liquid form as long as they are verified as authentic, and baby milk and liquid baby food, so long as it is tasted by the accompanying passenger.
The statement says laptop computers will be allowed into the cabin of aircraft, but must be removed from the bag and placed in a tray when being X-ray screened.
Home Secretary John Reid says there has now been time to assess intelligence after the police operation.
"The police believe that the main suspects in the alleged plot were arrested last week," he said.
"The public needs to know that there may be other people out there who may be planning an attack against the UK. That is why there are a number of other security service operations under way."

[Gnadenburg]

..when it would be so easy to smuggle a dozen MANPADS into SE England and sit in a tree copse in the middle of an otherwise empty field within 5nm of LHR, Gatwick, Stansted or Manchester and simply shoot down airliners as they file past between 4000 and 8000' on arrival/departure...a much more powerful statement than 3 or 4 widebodies blowing up over the Atlantic out of view.

MANPADS are too expensive and too complicated to obtain on the blackmarket. The market is full of undercover operatives luring Islamic goons into a flytrap aswell. Nor are MANPADS guarranteed airline killers.

Tracability a factor too. Iranian supplied SAM's say, in an actual or foiled attack, would give a nice excuse for punitive strikes against her nuclear installations.

Topping off with the fact, suicide bombing chills the Western pysche more effectively, according to Al Queda. Hamas has been quoted as saying this aswell; life loving Jews fear the suicide bomber concept more than any other form of terrorism.

[Minimbah]

From ABC Web Site
Last Update: Monday, August 14, 2006. 10:38am (AEST)
BA flight turns around after mobile phone rings
A British Airways (BA) flight carrying 231 people from London to New York has turned around mid-flight and returned to London's Heathrow airport after a mobile phone started ringing.
A BA spokeswoman says flight BA179 has returned to Heathrow as a precautionary measure.
"A mobile phone was located on board the aircraft which none of the passengers appear to own," she said.
Britain imposed severe restrictions on hand luggage on board aircraft - including a ban on all electronic equipment - on Thursday after police said they thwarted a plot to bomb US-bound jets in mid-flight.
The alleged plot involved smuggling liquid explosives disguised as drinks or medicine and detonating them with a mobile phone or other electronic device.
The BA spokeswoman said the captain assessed the situation with the BA security team at Heathrow Airport, and although it was decided that it was safe to continue, the captain decided to return to Heathrow as a precaution.
"The captain explained his decision to the 217 passengers on board the aircraft," she said.
The aircraft will be security-searched at Heathrow before it departs again for New York this evening.
The spokeswoman said 12 cabin crew and two flight crew were also on board.
"We apologise to customers for the inconvenience but their safety is our number 1 priority and we will always err on the side of caution," she said.

[KLN94]

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims...

[Taildragger67]

Not all Muslims are terrorists, but all terrorists are Muslims... (emphasis added)

That's a bit of a sweeping statement :yuk:

I'm not sure that there were too many Muslims involved on either side in Northern Ireland and I can't recall reading reports that Aum Shinrikyo having a large number of Muslims on its books.

Other non-Muslim terrorist organisations of recent years:
Baader Meinhof - German
Carlos - Venezuelan
Red Brigades - Italy and Japan
Oklahoma City bomber - American
FARC - Colombian

I'm not defending the current crop but KLN, your generalisation is far too wide and not really a useful addition to the debate.

[MOR]

Well I don't think that the Oklahoma bomber was an organisation, and others such as Baader-Meinhof have not been active for many years.

On the other hand, there are thousands of Islamic terror groups, factions, and cells, all around the world.

Chimbu

If the Quiran really said kill all christians where-ever you find them surely they would start with the people 3 streets across just because they were handy....but they don't. Islam in fact believes that JC was a great prophet...not the son of god but definately a cool dude.

It does say that, I checked... maybe you should read it. More to the point, Islam may accept Jesus as a great prophet, but the Islamic litmus test is how you think of Mohammed, not Jesus. Unles you can say "there is only one God, and Mohammed is His Prophet", you ain't in the club... and if you won't say that, you will probably end up dead if the person asking you is armed and in a bad mood. The danger is not so much what is written, but the way in which it can be used to justify Jihad.

The reason that most Muslims don't simply go out and kill their Christian neighbours, is that most are as nominal as the Christians next door... they don't want to fight. It is the extremists you have to worry about - the numbers of which are increasing geometrically.

The reason Islam is so dangerous, is that if you are faithful and go to the mosque five times a day, you will almost certainly hear, five times a day, how the West is corrupt and evil, and how America is the Great Satan. This routinely occurs in British mosques too - it has always amazed me that the Brits allow it, as it is basically sedition. Not only that, but in all the madrassas (islamic schools) around Birmingham, Bradford etc., the same message of hate is preached. Muslim children grow up in the UK believing, as a matter of course, that these things are true, and the British government allows it - in fact, they encourage it. The dangerous youths aren't the disaffected ones, but the "educated" ones. Of course, the problem is a lot worse in the Middle East - but if you really want to scare yourself, look at how islam has spread around the world... chilling.

Add to the mix a religion that encourages it's adherents to kill themselves in return for instant access to paradise and a large number of virgins (the actual number varies depending on who you talk to), and you have a major problem. The people blowing themselves up aren't doing it out of a sense of duty, they really, really want to die.

The only way you can deal with that is to deal with the root cause, and that will involve giving up our PC notions and making some tough calls.

If it were me, I would close ALL religious schools, monitor the mosques, and come down very hard on anyone who preaches violence.

[B772]

It is disturbing to learn one of the people arrested in London as a suspect in the terrorist conspiracy is a Jet Airways employee based at Heathrow.

[KLN94]

OK Taily, noted and agreed.

Let me reprhase so I am a little more specific:

Not all Muslims are terrorists (that were involved in Sept 11, US embassy bombings, USS Cole, London bus bombings, British Embassy bombing, recent hand luggage bombing plan, etc), but all terrorists (that were involved in Sept 11, US embassy bombings, USS Cole, London bus bombings, British Embassy bombing, recent hand luggage bombing plan, etc) are Muslims...

And I beleive this to be an entirely useful and appropriate addition to this debate.

[Taildragger67]

MOR

KLN's earlier post didn't limit itself to 'organisations' or 'recent miscreants'.

KLN
Fair 'nuff and you provide an accurate list of recent events. Indeed I'd add Bali, the Limburg, WTC '93 and the US embassies in East Africa.

But keep in mind (f'rinstance):
- Omagh
- Bishopsgate
- Canary Wharf
- Aldwych bus
- Waterloo station (ever wondered why there are no public bins on the tube or in the City?)
- Lord Mountbatten
- 4 Aussies in Holland

My point is simply that terrorism has been with us for years; the current Muslim-centred caper is merely the latest manifestation. That will eventually die down (no pun intended) and be replaced by some other bunch with a gripe :ugh: .

[airbusthreetwenty]

For those interested, especially ozexpat.

http://www.dft.gov.uk/stellent/groups/dft_about/documents/page/dft_about_612280.hcsp

[OzExpat]

Thanks for that A320, now all we need is for QF to update themselves on the requirements, as posted on their website! I have your PMs and will respond to those shortly... thanks!:ok:

[Raw Data]

Taildragger67

MOR

KLN's earlier post didn't limit itself to 'organisations' or 'recent miscreants'.

Oh yes it did - my bolding:

Other non-Muslim terrorist organisations of recent years:
Baader Meinhof - German
Carlos - Venezuelan
Red Brigades - Italy and Japan
Oklahoma City bomber - American
FARC - Colombian

In the english language, that word does indeed limit the list that follows it. Maybe not in Strine though... :}

[airbusthreetwenty]

Thanks for that A320, now all we need is for QF to update themselves on the requirements, as posted on their website! I have your PMs and will respond to those shortly... thanks!:ok:

Looks like they've been reading PPRuNE....

http://www.qantas.com.au/info/ukTravelAdvice?int_cam=28
;)

[oicur12]

Gassed budgie

“Iran is responsible directly and indirectly for most of what goes under the name of terrorism today.”

Along with Egypt, Saudi Arabia and Pakistan. But being allies, we kindly overlook their misdemeanors such as those that occurred on 11/9 2001.

Keg

“Do we see the same level of condemnation about the acts of Hezbollah, al qaeda, etc from the muslim community?”

I no longer live in Australia and rarely view Australian news media but outrage is indeed being expressed in Muslim communities in many places including the Middle East.

The key reasons behind the “war on terror”, like the American war (also known as the Vietnam War), will not become clear to the public until long after the event has faded into history. Only then will we fully understand the extent to which we have been manipulated and lied to.

The latest conflict involving Israel is being sold to us using very simple and short term explanations when in fact Israeli forces have probably been planning their latest adventure for years and have much to gain from creating a “buffer zone” reaching as far toward the Litani River as possible. Desalination plants, oil pipelines and a buffer from Iranian reprisals following a US attack are more pressing strategic aims for Israel than the return of some kidnapped soldiers.

[Jetsbest]

Tail' is correct in asserting that "terrorism has been with us for years" but the difference now is that, unlike previous waves, the terrorists actually seek from the outset of their planning, to kill themselves too while attempting to make their point. That's a particularly radical muslim thing to be aiming for which has altogether too much tacit support, from even the less radical in that community, for my taste. Outcry after such events seems often to be more like 'we condemn this attack.... but you have to understand their point!' I don't accept that when ordinary people going about their daily routine are the targets.

[oicur12]

http://www.guardian.co.uk/israel/Story/0,,1844021,00.html

[Keg]

Big deail oicur. I bet you that tucked away in some in the bottom drawer the Aussies have plans for attacking Indon.... :eek: oops I mean Kamaria. :E

I bet you we've spoken to the US about them too! :E :ok:

[Gnadenburg]

oicur12

You can do better than that. A judo-christian conspricacy theory?

State sponsored terrorism ( Iran ) versus violent, dissident terrorist groups within dictatorships ( Pakistain, Egypt and loosely Saudia Arabia ). That's on your opening remarks.

Israeli strategic objectives a given on your last. Why else do you invade a country in modern times?

The link you offered was even less convincing. Firstly, of course the Israelis would be gauging the political support of their biggest supporters and supplier of arms. Secondly, to suggest the Israelis, who have dismantled Arab armies conventionally on numerous occasions, and have been embroiled in a bitter invasion of the Lebanon in the 80's, would seek American military foresight absurd!

But I must say. Although brutal, Vietnam style carpet bombing south of the Litani, may have been more useful in countering Hizbollah tunnelling than modern techniques. But we used up Western will and patience with this style of warfare, on a relatively passive people who have no oil nor fervour for religious martyrdom. ;)

[OzExpat]

A320... I just read it and the final sentence gave me cause to wonder, as it could be read either way in regard to Singapore, where I'll be transitting. I duly phoned the FF Centre to enquire about it and, when the operator read the same paragraph, she agreed with me that it could be read in two ways, with the difference being that normal carry-on baggage allowances might not be allowed at SIN.

Anyway, it took them about 10 minutes to check and confirm that the sentence was supposed to mean that normal carry-on is currently okay at SIN. Thought I'd post that, in case other folks had the same problem.

[oicur12]

Gnads,

“You can do better than that. A judo-christian conspricacy theory?”

US/Israeli consultation prior to an Israeli military strike does not a conspiracy theory make my friend and I suspect that you know it. You will have to work harder than to simply attempt to trump all arguments with the lame “conspiracy theory” accusation.

“State sponsored terrorism ( Iran ) versus violent, dissident terrorist groups within dictatorships ( Pakistain, Egypt and loosely Saudia Arabia ). That's on your opening remarks.”

Perhaps you are not aware that the Pakistani ISI provided the lion’s share of funding and training to the mujaheddin and later to Al Qaeda (along with the CIA). According to Zbigniew Brzezinski, the Saudi royal family has also been closely connected to Al Qaeda and for years have been providing financial assistance to Taliban fighters studying in Pakistani madrassas. If this doesn’t constitute state sponsored terrorism then at the very least it highlights how willing these regimes are to condone terrorism when the terrorist activities and aims are closely aligned with those of the state. As for state sponsored terrorism, have you ever heard of the “School of the America’s”? But that’s a different story I guess.

“Israeli strategic objectives a given on your last. Why else do you invade a country in modern times?”

For precisely the reasons I mentioned in my first post. I am simply making the point that the public is very nieve to think that this latest war is the result of 2 soldiers being kidnapped. Of course a much larger strategic objective is at stake and has been for a long time. Unfortunately though, the general public does not understand that apparently insignificant unrelated events are often pre meditated, manufactured catalysts to kick start a much wider, cohesive agenda that our leaders do not want us to understand. The gulf of Tonkin incident.

Was the Gulf War I really about liberating the freedom loving people of Kuwait from the clutches of the baby killing Iraq’s. Is the war on drugs in Colombia really just about drugs. Was the invasion of Afghanistan really to seek out evildoers who hijack planes. Was the rose revolution in Georgia really about giving oppressed people freedom. Was the NATO bombing of Kosovo really about stopping ethnic cleansing. Was the invasion of Iraq really about WMD. Was the carpet bombing of Southern Lebanon really about kidnapped soldiers and small rockets.

“Firstly, of course the Israelis would be gauging the political support of their biggest supporters and supplier of arms”.

Once again, this argument is not contradictory to my opinion. Israel is a proxy military force employed by Washington as a central player in reshaping the “new Middle East” (Rice) and as such is working closely with and sometimes under the direction of, Washington. Like my previous paragraph, my point is that the public has been mislead into believing that the invasion of Lebanon was purely an Israeli response. You and I both know Israel would be relying heavily on Washington for satellite imagery and intelligence, not to mention the rush delivery of JDAMS. It was almost amusing to see Rice discussing a “ceasefire” while the well placed neocon John Bolton was doing his level best to stall such an event until Israel neared its objectives.

“Secondly, to suggest the Israelis, who have dismantled Arab armies conventionally on numerous occasions, and have been embroiled in a bitter invasion of the Lebanon in the 80's, would seek American military foresight absurd!”

At a tactical level Israel has proven itself to be a capable fighting force (although the conflict with Lebanon in the eighties relied heavily on US Navy strike aircraft and the USS Missouri). Strategically though, Israel would launch military operations “off the reservation” without a knod from Washington at its own peril.

[Gnadenburg]

At a tactical level Israel has proven itself to be a capable fighting force (although the conflict with Lebanon in the eighties relied heavily on US Navy strike aircraft and the USS Missouri). Strategically though, Israel would launch military operations “off the reservation” without a knod from Washington at its own peril.

You are pulling a rabbit out of a hat there oicur.

The Israelis completely dismantled the Syrians in the Bekaa Valley before the arrival of peacekeeping forces to oversee the withdrawel of the PLO from Lebanon. The Missouri shellings, disasterous carrier borne USN strikes, and ineffective punitive French airstrikes, were retaliation for the bombings of US Marines and French troops in Beirut. The West was suckered into a civil war, complicated by Syrian & Iranian interests.

Israel has arguably the second most powerful air force in the world- couple this with the very short distances to southern Lebanon and you have a very high sortie generation. It never needed American air support in the Lebanon invasion. The airstrike you mentioned- two USN jets shotdown- it was in fact the Americans who could have used the help of the Israelis.

"The enemy of my enemy is my friend"- old Arab proverb. Try to understand the Middle East, before interpreting Western foreign policy in the region

[gassed budgie]

For those that aren't familiar with the Qur'an, the text below has been extracted from the chapter 'The Cow'.

[2.190] And fight in the way of Allah with those who fight with you, and do not exceed the limits, surely Allah does not love those who exceed the limits.
[2.191] And kill them wherever you find them, and drive them out from whence they drove you out, and persecution is severer than slaughter, and do not fight with them at the Sacred Mosque until they fight with you in it, but if they do fight you, then slay them; such is the recompense of the unbelievers.
[2.192] But if they desist, then surely Allah is Forgiving, Merciful.
[2.193] And fight with them until there is no persecution, and religion should be only for Allah, but if they desist, then there should be no hostility except against the oppressors.

These are the very passages from the Qur'an that the Islamic Jihadists are using to excuse their murderous, dispicable Holy war (Holy ?) against the Infidels of the western democracies and anyone else for that matter, that doesn't agree with their own warped view of things.
Are they really fighting for Allah? The small minority of might be, you know, the ones who's religiuos mindset is still stuck in the seventh century.
But the rest of them are there because they're simply pissed off that the bulk of the planet has it better than they do and they're to dumb to figure out why that might be. As I said in an earlier post, the rest of the world has well and truly passed them by.

All religions have their lunatic, zealot, fundamentalist fringe dwellers. Christian zealots throughout history, from the Inquisition, the KKK, to the more recent Jonestown People’s Temple and Waco Branch Davidians are no better than the fundamentalists behind the current terror scourge that has permeated our society.

That might be correct. But when did you last hear the Pope lending his and the Vaticans support to the nutters at the KKK or the Waco Branch Davidians?

The Islamic religion does not promote violence and the vast majority of Muslims are peaceful people, equally as frustrated and angered by the extremist zealots, as the rest of the world. Innocent Muslins are also suffering and dying.

Yes, again correct. Well nearly. Five individuals from the group handpicked by the PM to educate the rest of the country on the Islamic faith and their beliefs have made it known recently that they support Hezbollah in it's fight against Israel. One wonders what apalling attrocities this terrorist organisation would have to commit before these people who are tasked with the responsibility of leading the Islamic faith into a more enlightened and contempary sphere within the general comminuty, would say 'enough is enough'.
That fact of the matter is, the movers and shakers who pass themselves off as the leaders of the Islamic faith and muslim society here in Australia, aren't doing anywhere near enough to dispell the notion that sometimes they appear to be to aligned with their muslim jihadist brothers in the middle east.

In an earlier post I suggested that some of the regimes (or what pass for regimes in that part of the world) have sat idly by and watched whilst others have done their bidding for them. And I must point out here, that I was refering to regimes and not individuals or ethnic groups.
The one regime/government that I didn't metion, was the one perhaps more responsible than any other for the current situation in Lebanon. It was of course, the Lebanese government itself. AWOL, a gross dereliction of duties. That's being far to kind.
The following article appeared in 'The New Repulic' recently and was written by Michael Behe, a well known and respected journalist from Beirut.


The politicians, journalists and intellectuals of Lebanon have, of late, been experiencing the shock of their lives. They knew full well that Hezbollah had created an independent state in our country, a state including all the ministers and parallel institutions, duplicating those of Lebanon. What they did not know--and are discovering with this war, and what has petrified them with surprise and terror--is the extent of this phagocytosis.
In fact, our country had become an extension of Iran, and our so-called political power also served as a political and military cover for the Islamists of Teheran. We suddenly discovered that Teheran had stocked more than 12,000 missiles, of all types and calibers, on our territory and that they had patiently, systematically, organized a suppletive force, with the help of the Syrians, that took over, day after day, all the rooms in the House of Lebanon. Just imagine it: We stock ground-to-ground missiles, Zilzals, on our territory and the firing of such devices, without our knowledge, has the power to spark a regional strategic conflict and, potentially, bring about the annihilation of Lebanon.
We knew that Iran, by means of Hezbollah, was building a veritable Maginot line in the south, but it was the pictures of Maroun el Ras and Bint Jbail that revealed to us the magnitude of these constructions. This amplitude made us understand several things at once: that we were no longer masters of our destiny; that we do not possess the most basic means necessary to reverse the course of this state of things; and that those who turned our country into an outpost of their Islamic doctrine's combat against Israel did not have the slightest intention of willingly giving up their hold over us.
The national salvation discussions that concerned the application of Resolution 1559, and which included most of the Lebanese political movements, were simply for show. Iran and Syria had not invested billions of dollars on militarizing Lebanon in order to wage their war, simply to give in to the desire of the Lebanese and the international community for them to pack up their hardware and set it up back home.
And then, the indecision, the cowardice, the division and the irresponsible behavior of our leaders are such that they had no effort to make to show their talent. No need to engage a wrestling match with the other political components of the Land of Cedars. The latter showed themselves--and continue to show themselves--to be inconsistent.
Of course, our army, reshaped over the years by the Syrian occupier so it could no longer fulfill its role as protector of the nation, did not have the capacity to tackle the militamen of the Hezbollah. Our army, whom it is more dangerous to call upon--because of the explosive equilibrium that constitutes each of its brigades--than to shut up behind locked doors in its barracks. A force that is still largely loyal to its former foreign masters, to the point of being uncontrollable; to the point of having collaborated with the Iranians to put our coastal radar stations at the disposal of their missiles, that almost sunk an Israeli boat off the shores of Beirut. As for the non-Hezbollah elements in the government, they knew nothing of the existence of land-to-sea missiles on our territory ... that caused the totally justified destruction of all our radar stations by the Hebrews' army. And even then we are getting off lightly in these goings-on.
It is easy now to whine and gripe, and to play the hypocritical role of victims. We know full well how to get others to pity us and to claim that we are never responsible for the horrors that regularly occur on our soil. Of course, that is nothing but rubbish! The Security Council's Resolution 1559--that demanded that our government deploy our army on our sovereign territory, along our international border with Israel and that it disarm all the militia on our land--was voted on September 2, 2004.
We had two years to implement this resolution and thus guarantee a peaceful future to our children, but we did absolutely nothing. Our greatest crime--which was not the only one!--was not that we did not succeed, but that we did not attempt or undertake anything. And that was the fault of none else than the pathetic Lebanese politicians.
Our government, from the very moment the Syrian occupier left, let ships and truckloads of arms pour into our country. Without even bothering to look at their cargo. They jeopardized all chances for the rebirth of our country by confusing the Cedar Revolution with the liberation of Beirut. In reality, we had just received the chance--a sort of unhoped-for moratorium--that allowed us to take the future into our own hands, nothing more.
To think that we were not even capable of agreeing to "hang" Émile Lahoud--Al-Assad's puppet--on Martyrs' Square and that he is still president of what some insist on calling our republic. ... There is no need to look any further: We are what we are, that is to say, not much.
All those who assume public and communicational responsibilities in this country are responsible for this catastrophe. Except those of my colleagues, journalists, and editors, who are dead, assassinated by the Syrian thugs, because they were clearly less cowardly than those who survived. And Lahoud remained at Baadbé, the president's palace!
And when I speak of a catastrophe, I do not mean the action accomplished by Israel in response to the aggression against its civilians and its army, which was produced from our soil and that we did strictly nothing to avoid, and for which we are consequently responsible. Any avoiding of this responsibility--some people here do not have the minimal notions of international law necessary to understand!--means that Lebanon, as a state, does not exist.


I think that just about says it all.

[Chimbu chuckles]

I think, within the context of the current crisis, that is about as close to 'spot on' as it is possible to be....I wonder how long that journalist will survive:(

I saw a retired Lebanese army General interviewed last week...he straight out said that 1/2 the Lebanese Army is Shiite and will not fight Hezbolah who are also Shiite. Deploying the Lebanese Army to the south will be like sending 15000 reinforcements to Hezbolah.

The French, Germans and whomever would be nuts to send their own soldiers, armed or otherwise, into that situation.

We have not seen the end to this crisis... and once again the UN is functioning in cloud cuckoo land:ugh:

The west has lost the ability to wage war the way war needs to be waged...the 'other side' understand this well and uses it to their advantage time after time. Can anyone imagine how WW2 would have been run had Germany and Japan been awash with CNN, BBC etc Journos and camera people?

Israel dropped leaflets all over Southern Lebanon which essentially said "If you're not interested in fighting leave...if you are, we'll be right back".

I am convinced that the main reason Hezbolah has widespread community based support in the south is because the community has been brainwashed. People in the west need to understand that the populations in these types of countries don't have the access to information we do...they only get what Nasralah and his cohort want them to hear. The educated elite in the north of Lebanon do have access to information and often hold a different view as a result.

MILLIONS upon MILLIONS of people world wide don't even know 911 happened at all and many that may have heard are told it was a Zionist plot to anger the US population against Islam. For God's sake there are educated Americans who believe that!

What do you think Nasralah says to a grieving Lebanese parent holding the broken body of a 6 year old killed in an air raid when they ask why this happened?

"Well for 60 years we have been trying to destroy the State of Israel (a euphamism for kill all Israelis) and dozens of times each year our angry and dissaffected youths walk over the border into Israel (after we have wound them up tighter than a clock and pointed them that way) and blow up bus loads of Israelis, often children...and then 5 years ago 20 of our Saudi brothers hijacked 4 American airliners and flew them into the tallest buildings in New York killing nearly 6000 of the Godless infadells...oh and a bunch of Muslims too, but you get that...Oh and then there was the time some of your brothers blew up some embassies in Kenya...oh and we attacked one of their ships...actually on various occassions we have attacked quite a few of their ships and then there was the time..."

"Of course Saddam has been a bit of an embarrassment...he's murdered lots of Muslim women and children...actually 100s of thousands...not sure why...he had a real long war with Iran too...can't remember why...and well...it's just better to be at war than be a nobody that no-one has ever heard of...but fear not my sister, the fighting will stop when we have taken over the world and killed all the people who object"

What average Lebanese, Palestinian, Irani etc would not react along the lines of "Well for FECKS SAKE LEAVE THEM ALONE"

The average man and women the world over wants the exact same thing...a job that provides a roof over their head, food on the table, an education for their children and to live their lives in peace while worshiping, or not, the God of their choice. It does NOT matter whether they are Palestinian, Lebanese, Afghan, Pakistani, Syrian, Irani, Saudi or from Charleville, New York or Manchester.

When the west can work out how to hold the nutcases (both terrorist and political) at bay long enough to give that to the people of Lebanon, Syria, Afghanistan, Iraq etc we will live in peace...and, sadly, not before.