Is tailwheel time an advantage?

[AnyGivenSunday99]

As I will shortly be looking to secure my first job in GA, I am interested to see if tailwheel time wil be an advantage for a 150hr brand new commercial pilot. I have been seriously considering getting an endorsement in a C152 texas taildragger or a C185... Would my money be better spent on another type?

[Ratshit]

I am interested to see if tailwheel time wil be an advantage

Only if you want to fly one o'them airplane thingies with a little wheel on its ass !!!!

R:cool:

[disco_air]

taildragging time could help you get a job in WA doing firespotting for the season... heard its not a bad gig! recently advertised actually.

...disco

[john_tullamarine]

Might I suggest that

(a) a basic endorsement is a moot point although, if you do it on an interesting aircraft (eg SuperCub or similar), it will open your eyes to a whole different ball game on the ground ...

(b) if you can then get some decent taildragger time there is much value to be had .. for instance, I did around 400 plus hours towing and learnt more from that than a whole bunch of other flying ..

[jetbrett]

Tailwheel time might not help you as much but going for a few burns in a 185 will, close to handling a 206 and there is a lot of float 180's and 185's out there so that could be an advantage. If what you are doing is to primarily to get you a job I would spend my money elsewhere, like doing some hours on a 206 or 210. Have Fun JB

[dragchute]

Tailwheel time might not help you as much but going for a few burns in a 185 will, close to handling a 206 and there is a lot of float 180's and 185's out there so that could be an advantage. If what you are doing is to primarily to get you a job I would spend my money elsewhere, like doing some hours on a 206 or 210. Have Fun JB

Ah, the joys of a conventional undercarriage. Do it.

As JT points out you will achieve a whole new understanding of ground handling, even taxiing in a strong cross wind or quartering wind requires ‘flying’ the aircraft. Control of the aircraft during take-off and landing is also a skill few tricycle pilots develop. Your crosswind take-off and landing technique will be superior.

A C185 on floats … an injustice to a damn fine aeroplane!

[BrokenConrod]

KaBoing.....KaBoing!.....KaBoing!.....KaBoing!.....KaBoing!. ....KaBoing!.....KaBoing!.....KaBoing!.....KaBoing!.....KaBo ing!.....KaBoing!.....KaBoing!.....KaBoing!.....KaBoing!.... .KaBoing!.....KaBoing!.....KaBoing!.....KaBoing!.....KaBoing !

BC:cool:

[Cloud Basher]

You have never learnt to really control an aircraft fully until you have mastered a taildragger. You will learn that rudder pedals are not foot rests... and indeed as dragchute said, you "fly" the aircraft until it is shut down and chocked.:)

[NNB]

a tail wheel endorsement will teach you how to "control" an aeroplane on and close to the ground, it will teach you how to use your feet, it will force you to be competent in cross winds <=> if this makes you a better prospect for a future employer...why not just go for it and have a bit of fun along the way
:D
NNB

[compressor stall]

Concur with all above - it will teach you how to fly. For a first job, however, knowledge of and experience on a C210 would, on average, help to get a foot in the door at more operators.

Your instructor and flying school have a lot to answer for though - why did they not suggest you do a tailwheel endo as part of your CPL training counting towards the 70 hours dual? Have they said it now to fleece more $$ out of you?

[AnyGivenSunday99]

Compressor

I havn't actually finished yet, but i do know what you mean. I am sure there a re a lot of operators out there who would pull those sort of shenanigans all the time. Fortunately for me, i've found an instructor and school I can trust -SHOCK HORROR- I just thought I would explore the possibilities, as I have access to tailgtraggers both privately and through my flying school. Cheers for looking out for the little man!

Guys, gotta say tht it all sounds like it is going to be an advantage for the long term, but may be a bit of a hinderance as far as getting an entry level job, ie, no 206, 210 time.

I am interested in more info about this firespotting game that goes on over in WA. What type of machines do they use, and who are the best people I can get in contact with so I can start sending out a few resumes?

Cheers again for all your help. You have helped restore my faith in PPrune!:ok:

[Miles Long]

When you kaboing...kaboing....
make sure you kaboing ....kaboing ....straight, unless you're practising in a 3000acre paddock with nothing to hit.
Miles

[Cloud Basher]

Miles Long,
Even in a 3000acre paddock there is the ground to hit and it could be quite nasty for the wingtip/prop if there is a competition involving the two as the tail rapidly tries to overtake the nose!:{

Cheers
CB

[185skywagon]

I fly T/W for a living. Practicality would indicate that you should get some experience in a C210 or C206 or even C182, as that will be what you most likely be flying in your early career.

If you want to learn about ground handling and X-winds etc, then by all means, do your T/W endorsement. You won't regret it.

Don't expect to be able to get into the bigger T/W machines after doing an endorsement in a Citabtria, well not straight away. They are different altogether.

PM me if you want some contacts for advanced T/W training.

regards,
185.

[NZDP]

Yeah its not a bad gig at all. All you need is 10 hours pic on a taildragger, and show the boss how keen you are. They hire no time pilots, all planes are new, maintenance is always done, no pressure with wx and pax, pay is good, lots of hours get flown, and i "suspect" there will be a "big" intake this season.


And where might one find out about doing this e.g company/contact info ? Wouldn't mind doing that, sound like fun. Cheers

[Chimbu chuckles]

AGS99.

At your experience level of 150 hrs ANYTHING you do will be an advantage.:ok:

I know this was a while ago, and things have changed somewhat, but I would hate to think how my life and career would be different without being tailwheel qualified early on.

When I was learning to fly in C152s at YSBK in the early 80s my only short term goal was finding an aeroplane that had a stick, inverted fuel/oil system, a tailwheel, preferably tandem seating...and turning it upside down.:}

When Rex got VH-DEC on line my prayers were answered...a Super Decathlon. The instant I had my RPPL (GFPT equivalent) I eshewed nav training and got my TW endorsement in it...and proceeded to 'waste' vaste resources 'playing at Walter Mitty' as my father put it.

I probably delayed the whole CPL licence thing by 6 mths ultimately because I could not really afford this 'sillyness'...but **** it was fun!!!!

I eventually got my CPL a few years later and an Instructors Rating, even did a little instructing in Decathlons. Went hunting for jobs, bare in mind this was the mid 80s now and jobs were few and far between, and eventually was given the number of a CP in PNG to ring. It was the CP of Talair, Wally Pendray, who couldn't give me a job because at 300+ hrs I didn't meet their minimums of 1000 hrs....BUT..."Do you have a tailwheel endorsement?" "Yessir..about 40hrs" "Do you have any ME time?" "Yessir..6hrs!"

"Ring this number, Chimbu Aviation, Terry Murray is looking for a pilot"

Weeks of phone conversations, where Terry was encouraging but non committal, led to the following conversation.

"Weeelll...I need to hire a pilot in the next 4 weeks"

"I will be there in 2" and I hung up on him before he could answer.

I bought a ticket, flew to PNG with no job offer and turned up on his door in the central highlands 10 days later.

2 days later I had my first real job flying a C185 at < 400hrs. 2 mths later I was endorsed on the company Islander...still didn't have 500 hrs when that happened. Terry actually got the company to pay an extra premium to the insurance company until I met the minimum experience requirements a few mths later.

A year later I joined Talair with 1100 hrs and 600+ Islander. In the meantime I had been CP of Chimbu Aviation myself and hired/trained two more pilots who averaged 400 hrs each upon starting.

Was the Instructor rating wasted?

Nope...got all sorts of training approvals over the years based on a basically unused (about 60 hrs of instructing) lapsed Grade 3.

My whole career and life, including the daughter I have now, is based on that TW endorsement.

Quite apart from the fact it taught me how to fly properly.

You may never use it in anger...but you might just be amazed too.

Thankyou Wally and thankyou Terry.:ok:

[Capt Claret]

Chuckles,

My whole career and life, including the daughter I have now, is based on that TW endorsement.

let me guess, you ran mile high club flights in a tail dragger, some where??? :p :} :E

[Chimbu chuckles]

Nope...my only experience of the mile high club was in the back of a 707 enroute Mauritias(sp?)-Perth in 1975ish...although coped a BJ enroute once in a C152:} :ok:

And, before you say anything, given your enquiry on the "who's Dean" thread, it was a GIRL!!!:}

[Capt Claret]

We know it was a girl 'cause you said daughter. :E

[Chimbu chuckles]

ROFLMAO...I never knew you were such a devo Clarry...you one sick mutha:E :ok:

[Barkly1992]

Teaches you how to use the rudder - rather than using them as foot rests which isn't a bad idea.

[AnyGivenSunday99]

Well, that is settled then. I am going to have a go at dragging my ass and see how I go, even if it is just for the endorsement.

My next question is this - Anyone else going to hit up their instructor for the T/W endorsement?! As the late Big Kev would say "I'M EXCITED!!!":D

[Tail_Wheel]

Someone calling me?????

:} :}

[George_of_the_Bungle]

the firespotting in WA sounds like some fun flying.....does anyone know where they operate out of in WA? or do they have a few bases?

[J430]

CC....you are a very sick puppy.....:eek: Too much Jet A1 fume intake today mate!!!

Cheers
J:ok:

[Led Zep]

the firespotting in WA sounds like some fun flying.....does anyone know where they operate out of in WA? or do they have a few bases?

Run by CALM, "bases" include Manjimup and Bunbury. All the aircraft are basically new, well looked after and I think they are American Champions. Guaranteed 2 days off each week. Don't see the jobs advertised too much because there isn't much need as they are snapped up quickly. (For obvious reasons!) :}
That's all I know, others feel free to add/correct. :ok:

[Wombat35]

For my two cents...

I only currently instruct on tailwheels, my students vary in experience from 60 - 2000hrs and I thought I would have a chat to some of the commercial types to ask them what benefits flying a tailwheel has brought them.

I got a couple of interesting responses. Bear in mind that I'm talking about a Citabria in particular as I own one.

It surprised me that the main benefit was that they enjoyed the attitude flying and the responsiveness of the aircraft.

Next was, that they enjoyed the challenge of the tailwheel. You cannot plonk down a wheeler so you have to on your game for every single landing.

Lastly, they felt that it improved their situational awareness and airmanship, I encourage tight circuits 12+ an hour as we are only really focussing on the last 300' and that means that we are always overtaking Cessna's and cutting off twins etc... and they enjoyed the challenge of thinking about other aircraft in the circuit.

So that might help sway you, although I think you're already sold on the fire spotting stuff. I can strongly recommend doing you Champion rating with Curtis, at Camden. I think they do fire spotting as well…. You need to be taught tail dragging correctly or it will end in :{ .

I can't stress that enough.

Cheers

Wombat 35

[ballsdeep]

the firespotting in WA sounds like some fun flying.....does anyone know where they operate out of in WA? or do they have a few bases?

The flying is great, the pay is 18% above the award, the planes are all new Scouts (a more ag version of the Citabria), and the just got one new Citabria. Very relaxed flying. The bases are in Manjimup, Bunbury and Dwellingup, with 2-3 day lay-overs in Albany. But things can change. There will be a few pilots hired this season (oct-may) because neraly all the pilos from last season will not be coming back. The only requirement is a 10 hours on taildraggers and a CSU endorsement. It will make a man of you, you can expect up to 25kts of x-wind in Manjimup on some days, the dam fools built the runway the wrong way.

[Like This - Do That]

Don't have the POH close at hand ...... isn't the 7GCBC demonstrated XW 17 kts? Jim Drinnan at Curtis has put me through the wringer several times with XW wheelers on very windy days. Friggin hard work but very rewarding.

Low level ccts as Wombat35 suggests, so there is heaps of exposure to the hard bits in the hour.

[ballsdeep]

Don't have the POH close at hand ...... isn't the 7GCBC demonstrated XW 17 kts? Jim Drinnan at Curtis has put me through the wringer several times with XW wheelers on very windy days. Friggin hard work but very rewarding.
Low level ccts as Wombat35 suggests, so there is heaps of exposure to the hard bits in the hour.


Yeah its amazing, just as you flare the wind always drops down to only17kts Xwind. Quite remarkable. :}

[Wombat35]

God know that feelling, just back from a Spin ride..

Round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round and round.. rrr eee cccc ooo vvv eee rrrr :8

Ahh it's all good fun, and as for cutting off 172's, hey that why god invented the side slip :E

And yes the max Demonstrated X wind is 17Kt's its not actually a limit.... however..... the things stop on a dime just land across the strip :ok:

Cheers

Wombat

[7e7100]

I miss flying tailwheel!

[amos2]

So!...shall we get back to 99's original question re tail dragger time?...

In this day and age, why waste your time and money mate!!

:confused:

If you want tail wheel time go fly a Tiger Moth or a Chipmunk! Good fun, but it wont get you a job!

[poteroo]

As mentioned earlier - value depends on where you'll fly in future.

If you intend to instruct - then it's a YES. If IFR/charter bound - probably won't help much.

But, if you decide to do it - then do it with a high t/w time instructor, or you'll end up too scared to make the aircraft do your bidding. Timidity leads to under controlling, which leads to loss of directional control, which leads to......

Be sure that your instruction will include:

(1) 3 pointers using full flap and 'performance' speeds
(2) 3 pointers with nil flap
(3) Wheelers with full flap and 'performance' speeds
(4) Tail low wheelers
(5) No flap wheelers

All the no flaps stuff should include aggressive forward slipping down to 50ft

You should also be shown downwind ops, especially for t/o - where it brings up your x/w on the RHS - to increase the x/w you can handle.

As pointed out earlier, learning in a lightwight t/w such as a Cub or Citabria is not a 'licence' to fly a heavy t/w like a Cessna 185 - you'll need conversion help.

Good luck - it will make a better pilot out of you,

happy days

[Wanderin_dave]

If you want tail wheel time go fly a Tiger Moth or a Chipmunk! Good fun, but it wont get you a job!

Tailwheel time got me my first job.......AND the Tiger time i got from that job got me my current job!

Don't think it'll really help with getting me onto twins though........ :{ DC-3s maybe?

BUT it's damn good fun!! Aeros all day yesterday AND got paid to do it!!!! :p

[Centaurus]

and 'performance' speeds

What on earth is a performance speed? I have heard of VREF or TTS but have never seen the term "performance" speed in maunfacturer's POH or Flight Manuals. There is a lot of rubbish taught in GA when it comes to interpretation of landing speeds. For example just because the Cessna manuals discuss "short field" landing speed in their tables, this is nothing more than normal over the fence speed.

A Boeing 737 has a Vref speed for given weight and flap configuration and associated tables for runway length needed but Boeing don't call it "short field landing " speed. The original wartime short field landing speed was approaching on the point of stall with the propeller slipstream saving you from bashing it into the ground. The same effect occurs if you approach with intermittent beeps of the stall warning horn or reed in a Cessna with a serviceable stall warning system (a rare bird indeed).

Carrier landings were real short field landing affairs. I know because I came close to buggering a Sea Fury on my solo at Nowra when the sod of a young Sub Lieutenant who briefed me gave me the carrier over the fence speed instead of a safe over the fence speed. I closed the throttle before the flare instead of after the flare and the arse fell out of the aeroplane.

[Wombat35]

In this day and age, why waste your time and money mate!!

If you want tail wheel time go fly a Tiger Moth or a Chipmunk! Good fun, but it wont get you a job!

See here's the thing, Amos I'll try once and reason with you.

Most of the guys reading this post are not going to be at the level of going to the QANTAS interview next week.

Yes I agree that it's wont get you a job with QANTAS, however I do think that it makes you a better pilot during the stage where you are still learning your craft say <500 hrs.

Most of my students really benefit from learning how to operate a Tailwheel aircraft and find that after returning to conventional types if nothing else the focus on attitude flying gives them more confidence and brings more accuracy to their everyday flying.

This should help them get the next job, well I at least hope it does.

Have you every flown a taildragger?.... and "flown in" doesn’t count. :ok:

Cheers

Wombat35

[On eyre]

Centaurus queries about 'performance speeds' Sure they are not mentioned as such in POHs but in my experience most GA pilots do not fly the numbers to get max. performance from their aircraft. Typically speeds are +5 knots on those given in POHs. What Poteroo is saying is learn to accurately fly the aircraft using the numbers given to achieve max. 'performance' in the broadest context. Learning to fly a tail-dragger accurately using those 'performance speeds' will make you a much better pilot all round. I know it did for me. And in case you ask Poteroo has in excess of 10000 hours, the majority of which is in tail-draggers. He knows that of which he speaks - trust me.

[jon s gull]

Did a tw endorsement whilst learning , for the same reason as chimbu though some years earlier. one thing led to another and I got fying in a super cub towing gliders, where i met my current boss. i still fly tailwheels but they have 1300 shp and weigh 8 tons now.

an aside, whilst flying the cub I had to land at the oaks in that ''Gusting 50kts'' westerly during the blue mountains fires years ago. the reasons are quite involved. any way thought I'd give it a shot flying it on and see how it felt. Flew the upwind mains on with the wingtip near the ground and drove along till near the taxiway at which time I let the downwind wheel onto the ground and it rounded up into wind at which point I just kept taxiing up into wind. Worked a treat. I have some great photos of less spectacular xwind work to remember those days.

[Ratshit]

i still fly tailwheels but they have 1300 shp and weigh 8 tons now

JSG - I'll bite! What manner of beast is this 8 ton 1300 shp tail-dragging aparatus?

R:cool:

[precession]

sounds like a turbine ag..............

[Hydrant]

On Eyre

Without getting into who is better qualified than blah blah blah arguments let me sum up Centaurus' experience FOR YOU

23000 hrs plus +++
Tailwheel types flown
Lincoln 4 engine tailwheel maritime (QFI, where awarded AFC)
Mustang
Sea Fury
DC 3
Tiger Moth
Chipmunk
various other GA tailwheel types.
Other Military types ranging from
Vampire
HS748
Convair
Civil types
B737 200/300/400/500
F28
F27
a multitude of turboprop type(s).
Now i think he may know what he is talking about when we discuss tailwheel techniques and CORRECT understanding of POH applications.:= := :=

[Led Zep]

Did anyone apply for the firespotting and have they heard anything?:confused:

Applications closed on the 17th.

I'll bet that jon s gull flies AT802s for a living. :E

[airag3]

It could also be a turbine Drom' Led Zep.

How are things in WW JSG , hope you're all surviving the drought ok , I've almost forgotten how it's done as have barely turned a blade since mid April !

[jon s gull]

http://www.airtractor.com/models/802A/

and the winner is.........

Dry mostly but a little herbicide work after the little rain, badly need to fill the dam though.

[kimwestt]

:O Only if you're a tail gunner!!!!

[archangel7]

I have a question that I can’t seem to find an answer for...

Why are most aerobatics aircraft a tailwheel? I can’t seem to find an answer anywhere.... the zlin is a nose dragger and performs beautifully.... I've got lots of time on the decath and Pitts...Ok, fair enough to say the CofG is the main difference between the taildrager and nose dragger... and why are most aerobatics machines taildraggers? What’s the reason behind this? I can’t think of a logical explanation! loll someone help me out here? I'm pretty sure it’s a simple answer.... maybe something to do with the CofG? But, apart from the taxing, takeoff and landing, I can’t see much of a difference in the air.

[Wombat35]

Hey, good question...

Aerobatics is all about power to weight and for large power you need a large fine pitch prop, and that needs to clear the ground... and for weight fabric is lighter that Aluminium.

Consequently you GENERALLY find that medium level aerobatic aircraft are fabric covered and tail draggers.

Now that being said most of the top performance aircraft are mostly metal or now carbon fibre as this helps with rigidity and increased the G limits, however due to the prop size they remain tail draggers.

Cheers and again good question

Wombat

[jon s gull]

Wombat , there are plenty of Qantas pilots who could have benefited from learning how to land properly, something which requires more concentration in a taildragger.

[Chuck Ellsworth]

For fun flying this little Aerobat Texas Taildragger is afordable.

http://i43.photobucket.com/albums/e353/ChuckEllsworth/P1010783.jpg

In fact I have it for sale ...but it in in Canada...

A long way from Aus.

And tailwheel time makes for a better all around pilot, with aerobatics you will be that much better.

Chuck E.

[djpil]

Why are most aerobatics aircraft a tailwheel?
T/W aircraft have less drag and less weight so better performance for aerobatics. The bigger rudder required for a T/W aircraft just happens to go along with aerobatic capability. Aerobatic aircraft are sporty so less incentive to make them easier to fly by having a nose-wheel.

[Like This - Do That]

Isn't there also a small efficiency penalty in having a nosewheel in the immediate path of the thrust produced by the propellor? Add to that the increased weight of nosegear vs. tailwheel .....

[HappyJack260]

Isn't there also a small efficiency penalty in having a nosewheel in the immediate path of the thrust produced by the propellor? Add to that the increased weight of nosegear vs. tailwheel .....

The Columbia 300 series seems to do OK with a nosewheel - the top of the range model has a 235 kt cruise.
Frankly, with an aircraft like a Pitts, there's so much drag from the wings and wires that a nosewheel wouldn't really matter. Efficiency is about converting fuel into distance or speed. Aerobatics is about converting fuel into fun. But as others have pointed out, a large prop really needs a tailwheel, and a nosewheel or retractable gear simply adds weight, compared to a tailwheel fixed gear configuration. So most aerobatic aircraft are tailwheel, fixed gear. The modern crop of aerobatic monoplane aircraft tend to be relatively slippery and accelerate very quickly going downhill. And drag can be helpful in aeros - gives you more time on the downline.
Which is why an aircraft like the Siai Marchetti SF260 is lovely to look at and fly, but won't win many aerobatic contests...

[archangel7]

I think it should be a prerequisite for student pilot to have an aerobatics endorsement to help improve handling skills and confidence. Also, a tailwheel aeroplane is a much more aerodynamically pronounced aeroplane because it requires more skill and effort to fly. The nose wheel aircraft is considerably easier to handle and therefore the pilot becomes lazy. Learn on a taildragger and you can convert straight into a nose wheel. Learn on a nosewheel and you may require several hours more training for a safe conversion to a taildragger. A good parallel is in driving. If you learn on an automatic car you will have trouble adjusting to a manual car and will require some practice. Learn on a manual and you can get straight into an automatic. It’s also more exciting to fly a taildraggers and much more challenging.

Also thanks to those who answered my question... very interesting points! very clever answers..

[flying_flick]

Did anyone apply for the firespotting and have they heard anything?:confused:
yeah i applied, but havn't heard anything yet. has anyone else heard anything?

[Tankengine]

Apart from the obvious benefits of learning to handle a real aircraft on the ground gaining a tailwheel endorsement may get you a job!
In a previous life I got a job mainly flying a Cessna 310 because I had TW time so could also fly the boss's Grummand AgCat!
When 310 sold I went with it as CP for the new owner and from there to QF.:p
So a TW endorsement helped me to a jet command! :E

[Cloud Basher]

Frankly, with an aircraft like a Pitts, there's so much drag from the wings and wires that a nosewheel wouldn't really matter.

Could you image a Pitts with a nosehweel? It would be sacrilige!!!!

Cheers
CB

[HappyJack260]

Could you image a Pitts with a nosehweel? It would be sacrilige!!!!

Cheers
CB
What? Let the pilot see where he's going? be able to see the runway whilst in the flare? That would spoil the whole experience, not to mention diluting the hero image somwhat....

[AnyGivenSunday99]

Just thought I would let you guys know, I did my first 0.5 in the J3 cub today, and now i understand what real flying is all about! I loved every second of it, and I can see already how it is going to increase my skill level, and add that little extra finesse to my flying.

Definitely going to be a long standing member of the taildragger club!

YEEEEEEHAW