Train to be a Train driver!!

[Rapid]

It's the peak holiday season, but it still takes just a few minutes online and a few pounds to book a flight to Glasgow, Manchester, Dublin ... even Prague, Rome or Barcelona.
Not for much longer, though, if an influential group of MPs gets its way. Alarmed at what it sees as the government's wilful disregard of the effects of cheap air travel on global warming, the cross-party environmental audit committee will tomorrow lay out a range of proposals to get people to pay for some of the damage they do.

It may take time and, given the tangle of international agreements that govern flights overseas, it is far more likely to mean the end of bargain fares to Manchester than to Moscow (£118 this week, if you know where to look). But the aim is to shift at least some passengers from air travel to high-speed rail links. The MPs also want changes on Britain's roads, with increases in road tax, targeted road tolls and more congestion charges.

It is vital, one committee member told The Observer yesterday, that the government should factor in the environmental impact of its transport policies - something the MPs were surprised to find is not happening. There is an ambitious overall target to cut Britain's carbon emissions by 60 per cent before 2050, but no specific plan for transport - which is the biggest emissions culprit and shows every sign of getting worse.

'They don't even measure the relative emissions impact of building a new road as against a new public transport project,' the MP said.

While a national road-charging scheme to charge motorists by the mile is being piloted, its aim is to cut congestion, not to discriminate between a higher-emissions Land Rover and an environmentally less damaging Toyota Prius.

But tomorrow's report is expected to say that the main challenge is air travel. Jetting off to the Mediterranean with a budget airline can now cost less than a tankful of petrol for a 4x4. The MPs will argue that the problem has arisen because airlines don't pay tax on their fuel, because passenger duty charges have been kept unrealistically low, and because no one in the government is prepared to take on the airlines.

The Transport Secretary, Douglas Alexander, told the committee that the government was addressing the problem of airline emissions by pushing for air travel to be included in the Europe-wide emissions-trading scheme. But with many of the airlines backing that strategy, the MPs were sceptical. Their fear was that this 'soft option' would not significantly change domestic policy on air travel, despite official figures showing that transport - particularly air travel - is the only sector of the British economy whose emissions have risen since 1990.

'Given the predictions for aviation growth, transport emissions could take up our whole global target emissions, leaving no room for emissions by any other sector of the economy by 2050,' said Desmond Turner, the Labour MP for Brighton Kemptown, during the committee's questioning of Alexander.

[pheeel]

But the aim is to shift at least some passengers from air travel to high-speed rail links. The MPs also want changes on Britain's roads, with increases in road tax, targeted road tolls and more congestion charges.



High speed rail links?? It would take years for these to be implemented judging by the railways at the moment. And rail fares are shocking. you can get return flights to most places in europe for less than the price of a return from leeds to london.
Why don't they put costs down for things they want people to do instead of always hiking up the costs of things they want to stop people doing? :oh:

I know- it'll never happen, that's just not how things work... :ouch:

edited to say: "rant over"!

[eglk01]

here we go again another plan to Tax avaition easy option put us back into
the dark ages of travel for rich only,of course we want to do our bit for
the enviroment,but most of the new generation of aircraft are very clean,
i do not think the flights are that cheap,i mean it costs £130.00 in tax alone
for a long haul flight now from London,the biggest problem i think is the
roads in this country and public transport,which could be so much better,at
least in other europeancountries there public transport is superb,this is a very
deep and long subject,i just wish people would look harder into the effects
instead of just jumping in head first and ban everything,tax everything,the
way its going it will not be worth working because everything will go on tax
:ugh:

[Fish Out of Water]

Why not become a train driver? Have to say, my best friend from school did his train driver training (sounds funny I know) the same time that I did mine in flying and he didn't have to pay a button for it. I started for an orange loco by which time he'd already been on full salary for a year (about 10k more than what I was earning) and hadn't any money to pay back! Not that bad a proposition - and he gets to look at fit office type dirty birds all day long. Better than me at the time with single mum Waynetta types and girls in orange tracksuits! :}

[PAXboy]

This thread is already running in Jet Blast. PPRuNe (http://www.pprune.org/forums/showthread.php?t=237924)

[Genghis the Engineer]

A couple of weeks ago I had to go to Edinburgh for a couple of days. I decided to take the train so that I could put my feet up and get a stack of paperwork done.


£6 single to Kings Cross
£94 return.
1½ hour delay (on a 6 hour journey already)
Got back, another £6 single home (can't get returns for more than 24 hours apparently), then they'd shut half of the undrerground for maintenance so took ages to get home.

And on the train, I seemed to be the only person actually sober, so chances of getting much work done declined to near zero anyhow.


Next time I'll do the £60 budget-airline return or ,frankly, drive - using £60 worth of Diesel, and having to put up with nobody's company.


Surely, if they want to get us all on the trains, we need:

- nicer, more reliable trains
- Tickets as cheap as budget airlines (or better still, cheaper)
- Joined up ticketing.
- Integrated into the rest of the public transport system a bit better.


That said, at-least you can turn up at the station 5 minutes before the train departs, and it's £3.50 per day to park at my local railway station, versus £10+ at any of the London airports. We could do ourselves a few favours as an industry still.

Oh yes, do we really think that the whole world will simultaneously agree to put the same tax on their fuel? If we don't, then you'll get over-heavy aeroplanes, taking double-trip fuel from countries that don't care, adding further to pollution, plus depriving UK economy of the profit from fuel sales.


G

[WHBM]

I started for an orange loco...
In a thread about trains "loco" has a bit of a different connotation (and I don't think there are any orange ones) :)

[LowObservable]

There has been a study (by the Technical Uni in Stuttgart if I recall correctly) that shows that trains use more energy than aircraft once the speed surpasses 135 mph. Sea level drag dominates the equation. And I think that is comparing trains to today's aircraft, not to something using today's technology and optimized for a 500 mile sector.

[High Wing Drifter]

LowObservable,

Not just that, but 'clean' electric trains are one the most ineffeicient modes of transport as not only does the nice 'clean' leccy need to be generated by burning horrid dirty fossil fuels, but it has to be transported hundreds of miles meaning that far more power needs to be produced than is used.

Also, didn't I read a while back that the new ATR and Dash TPs are now verging on one of the most fuel efficient modes of transport (when fully occupied of course).

[Final 3 Greens]

Surely, if they want to get us all on the trains, we need:

- nicer, more reliable trains
- Tickets as cheap as budget airlines (or better still, cheaper)
- Joined up ticketing.
- Integrated into the rest of the public transport system a bit better.


No, they'll just place a very heavy tax on air transport, until it forces people to stay at home, use alternatives or just pay up.

- toll roads and road pricing
- congestion charging

Just two items on this government's track record sheet.

[potkettleblack]

When is it all going to stop? Its not about the environment at all its about raising taxes. God only knows why they think they need more from us. Council tax going up, fuel prices up, gas prices up, VAT on just about everything, interest rates on the rise, cameras to catch illegal parking now in London, more speed cameras, congestion charging spreading to the regions, tolls on the main roads.....The list just goes on. No wonder people are getting out of the UK and heading for the hills!

[lplsprog]

What ever this government does will not matter one jot, because the biggest polluter in the world namely the USA, does not and will not cut their emissions. They are too afraid of loosing the public vote. :E

[chevvron]

potkettleblack: in case you haven't noticed, this government wants your money and will use ANY means to get it.
Anyway to get back to the original subject; I've driven a steam loco(motive) and can guarantee it's a highly satisfying experience.

[WX Man]

When is it all going to stop? Its not about the environment at all its about raising taxes. God only knows why they think they need more from us. Council tax going up, fuel prices up, gas prices up, VAT on just about everything, interest rates on the rise, cameras to catch illegal parking now in London, more speed cameras, congestion charging spreading to the regions, tolls on the main roads.....The list just goes on. No wonder people are getting out of the UK and heading for the hills!

Well said that man.

You forgot that property prices are now at an all time high, with approximately 120,000 first time buyers firmly priced out of the market.

The gap between the "haves" and "have-nots" must be worse now than it was in Victorian times!

And that's my reason to want to leave this f***ing godforsaken country.

[jondc9]

don't forget one advantage to being a locomotive engineer over being an airline pilot...YOU have that GREAT BIG DIESEL Horn to blow...at best we have a ground call horn/buzzer.

oh well

j

[cornwallis]

I heard a former vet being interviewed on a radio programme about train drivers recently.He thought it was much beter than working shifts and sticking has hands up a cow's a**e in the middle of the night!

[brakedwell]

Since BA abandoned their LGW-MUC the price of an indirect flight from LGW to MUC is extortionate with Robber Brown extracting £83.50 in tax! If the tree huggers get their way redundancy would become widespread in the airline industry.

LONDON (Great Britain) - MUNICH (GERMANY) - Depart 08/09/2006 Return 16/09/2006
*
Total Price
View full itinerary *
Date:
Fri 08-Sep-06 - Sat 16-Sep-06
Flight
1 Adult - Flight price: £396.90 - Tax: £83.50
Total:* £480.40

Transaction fee
Total:* £0.00

Your ticket will be supplied as a paper ticket

Total price for all passengers inc. tax £480.40

[Momentary Lapse]

I agree public transport is lamentable. Complicated pricing, no integration between different modes, train companies who focus on avoiding fines for delays rather than serving customers (i.e. not stopping at scheduled stations to "make up time"), etc.

But: in these days of global communications, video conf (webcam etc), Skype etc. - ask yourself if you really need to make that plane journey? Does Bratislava or Prague really need a load of pi$$ed up British stag doers rampaging through its beautiful old city centres? Many people fly these days "because it's cheap so I will" not "because I need to". That is selfish and greedy. Many people these days have too much money and the wrong priorities. They should save that money, give it to their children, or to charity, instead of wasting it on "me me me" indulgences. So many passenger miles these days are frivolous. Bring on the tax I say, and filter out the wheat from the chavs. (that was a pun, by the way).

[puts on tin hat and retires to bunker]

[brakedwell]

Many people these days have too much money and the wrong priorities. They should save that money, give it to their children, or to charity, instead of wasting it on "me me me" indulgences. So many passenger miles these days are frivolous. Bring on the tax I say, and filter out the wheat from the chavs. (that was a pun, by the way).
[puts on tin hat and retires to bunker]
Bring on the tax? Not needed mate. Rising interest rates and the skyrocketing price of oil will slow down the world economy and hit those selfish, greedy air passengers where it hurts - in the pocket. Even highly paid executives running major charities will feel the pain when donations dry up and annual rises in their six figure salaries are frozen. ML if you worked for an airline you would know how sensitive the industry is to the state of the economy. Even without the added burden of higher taxes I fear a downturn is due, but then I doubt if you care if thousands of airline workers lose their jobs. Keep hugging those trees.

[Momentary Lapse]

I'm no tree hugger. If and when Gordon Brown truly stuffs up the economy then many thousands of people will lose their jobs, whether a job that supports frivolous lager lout stag dos, or a job that supports something more worthwhile.

Remember, there's a whole wide world out there, most of which is more important than aviation, which is after all a luxury that's only been available to the masses for 30-40 of all the years that man has been on the earth.

[brakedwell]

M L
If you have such a low opinion of the Airline Industry why are you waisting your precious time on this forum?

[CAP493]

...there's a whole wide world out there, most of which is more important than aviation, which is after all a luxury
ML - I would only take seriously such comments and the mindset behind them, if the person making them (i) never ate a banana, organge or similar air-freighted tropical fruit, (ii) neither owned nor used any air-freighted Japanese or Asian technology be it a PC, watch, hi-fi or mobile phone, and (iii) only ever travelled within the UK mainland.

Unless you can claim to comply with all of the aforementioned criteria, I suggest you apply to become a Life Member of the National Hypocrite Association as you appear fully to meet its membership requirements.

:hmm:

[Momentary Lapse]

This is a discussion forum. It's a shame when someone's views are dismissed as hypocrisy just because they seek to offer an alternative point of view to the mainstream for the purposes of discussion.

Perhaps the moderators can explain what rules I have broken merely by expressing my point of view?

Mod comment: Momentary Lapse, when you made the comment "puts on tin hat and retires to bunker” in your post #18 of this thread, you made it apparent you knew what would follow so fight your own corner. There have been no fouls committed here on either side yet. Play on but lets keep it adult folks. :ok:

[aztruck]

always wanted to be a train driver, but the trains i wanted to drive are no more....fossil burning steam things from my childhood..boo. on the other hand the equivalent in this day and age is ...wait for it...airline pilot. Being a mainline steam driver in the 50's was a seriously respected Profession, much te same as an airline captain is today, indeed, it was also very much a 2 crew operation with the fireman(aka f/o) just as responsible for good performance as the boss. Still, I managed a footplate ride on the way to work the other day on the Gatwick express, very interesting but all he "bings" and "bongs" would drive me potty after a while......nice view though.

[Genghis the Engineer]

always wanted to be a train driver, but the trains i wanted to drive are no more....fossil burning steam things from my childhood..boo. on the other hand the equivalent in this day and age is ...wait for it...airline pilot. Being a mainline steam driver in the 50's was a seriously respected Profession, much te same as an airline captain is today, indeed, it was also very much a 2 crew operation with the fireman(aka f/o) just as responsible for good performance as the boss. Still, I managed a footplate ride on the way to work the other day on the Gatwick express, very interesting but all he "bings" and "bongs" would drive me potty after a while......nice view though.

A friend of mine retired from the board of BA to spend his retirement helping run (and drive!) the watercress line in Hampshire - a lovely old Steam Railway run entirely by volunteers.

Something to do when the age limit bites!

G