Too Young....Too Old?

[SASless]

I overheard a discussion between two helicopter pilots today. Their argument raised some very interesting ideas. The youngster, civilian trained, was suggesting to the older fellow and former military aviator that there comes a time for the Old Geezers to pack it in and make room for the up and coming youngsters. They appeared to be co-workers and friendly although the fuss got a bit antimated. (not the old fashioned antimated that resulted in bruises, blackeyes, and skinned knuckles) as each had a definite view of the advantages his background held over the other. During the course of the afternoon, amidst the array of empty tins of what is called Beer in these parts....there seemed to be a truce declared without either party giving much ground. Leastways, not until the Biker Gang showed up then we all moved to the patio thinking a bit of sunshine and August heat and humidity was healthier.

I suggested, in a weak moment, that each was right but for different reasons than they thought. My view was each could learn from the other as each had a different background. The youngster responded he felt he could learn from Old Geezers if they would transfer knowledge in a polite way and the Old guy mumbled something about learning from other's mistakes. I never did pin him down on just what he meant by that.

Is not hangar flying the best and cheapest way of information swapping two pilots can engage in? I always felt learning from other's mistakes saved me a lot of effort and I am sure my laundry bill has benefited from that practice.

Am I off base here?

[Captain Sand Dune]

Is not hangar flying the best and cheapest way of information swapping two pilots can engage in?

Couldn't agree more. There's lots to be learnt having a coffee in the crewroom listening to the "Old Geezers".

comes a time for the Old Geezers to pack it in and make room for the up and coming youngsters.

That time is when the "Old Geezer" can't pass his aircrew medical anymore or his employer says it's time to go. That's when I plan to quit, and fcuk what some "up and coming youngster" says!

[Low Ball]

Personally I would be more likely to listen to the older pilot. There are old pilots and there are bold pilots but no old AND bold pilots.

Years ago I used to teach pilots on the Sioux and we learnt and taught all the skills required for limited power takeoffs and landings and down wind take offs and approaches all of which required some careful mental arithmetic, a power check and skill! These rules, for the piston trained pilot, were etched in tablets of stone and were called good airmanship.

Come the first revolution and turbines took over I had the pleasure of giving a check ride to one of these boy wonders whose response to a query about a power check was that he never did one 'cos he always had plenty of power and clearly never saw the flashing red light on the torquemeter.

Come the second revolution boy wonder and his like were in the sand and it was hot and his poor Gazelle had put on serious weight. We had to teach, nevermind refresh, more than a few on limited power skills to avoid brown out.

Yes on balance I think I'd listen to the older more experienced pilot and nod off while the B*llsh*ters do what they do best!

LB:=

[South Bound]

Isn't this one of the real beauties of the Professional Aviators Spine? It keeps the experienced guys flying with those less experienced, able to share past experiences/mistakes/hairy moments and brings serenity to challenging situations. Anyone been on ops in the 'Stan recently got any experiences of working with senior/junior chaps? Surely it works?

[josephfeatherweight]

Sometimes the "up and coming youngster" can have something valid to say - they just need to deliver their message in the right way. Too often the RAAF has fallen victim to the "we always did it like this" mentality. A good example of this was the initial teething problems (not refering to serviceability) with the intoduction of the C130J. The "old and bolds" wanted to operate it like an E or H model. It's not an E or H model.

A number of Captains recently posted to 34 SQN have had a bit of difficulty getting used to the glass/automated environment - not to say, of course, that they wouldn't be a whip and an ace driving the jet with the automation disabled - but what some of these people don't grasp is that many of these new generation aircraft ARE DESIGNED to be flown automatically - even with an engine out etc. On the whole, the new "young" co-pilots posted on to these new aircraft types, get the hang of it pretty quickly.

I think a mix of youthful enthusiasm and mature experience is a healthy learning enviroment for both groups.

Joe Lighty
"Nobody's ever died from pressing..."

[teeteringhead]

Up to a point joefw. But us old gits have seen the wheel re-invented many times in our careers, often the same wheel! There may well be good reasons for "always doing it that way", which may not be apparent to the yoof - who are I must state amazingly competent in all that they do.
In a rotary context, as Low Ball eloquently puts it, limited power ain't new - in our youth power was always limited, even when you weren't hot and high. And hot and high's not new either - I can recall 50+C at 6300 amsl on the Jebel Akhdar (Firq-Saiq anyone?) 35+ years ago.
The biggest change now is the pace of flying life (certainly in the RAF), so there isn't the time to sit in crewrooms listening to old buggers telling (often very useful) war stories. To an extent I still believe that:Old age and cunning will beat youth and enthusisam every time...or to put it as an old Flight Safety poster once did: Learn from the mistakes of others ... you may not live long enough to make them all yourself!

[cazatou]

teeteringhead,

Spent the night at Firq in May 68 after aborting twice because the needles on the TGT gauges tried to go round the dial a second time. Multi star accommodation - you could see lots of them through the holes in the roof.

First Andover into Saiq 7 Feb 69.

[jindabyne]

caz

-- so was that when based at Bahrain? I was SFSO at the time.

[teeteringhead]

Teeteringhead had it too easy in his 205!.. did it in the Wessex from Sharjah long before I did it in 205 or 206 ..... did get a blister on my chest once from the buckle of a 206 shoulder strap that had heat-soaked at Saiq ... bl:mad: dy Brigadier's taxi-service......

I see the Andover (presumably 84 from Sharjah) did it in February .... 'twould never have hacked the really hot weather ....... :ok:

[cazatou]

jindabyne,

No, 84 Sqn Sharjah - and to think that we were all out there as a deterrent to stop Iraq from invading Kuwait!!!

[Rossian]

Cazatou/ jindabyne
Your comments brought back horrible memories of those bloody "twynehams" that we lived in at Sharjah. Our Shack flights out to Tunb and Abu Musa to make sure that no one had claimed what they oughtnter by flying by the little fort to see the flags were the right ones. Going out with the Wessex crew to find an army drilling rig that had gone AWOL which involved rumbling around the Empty Quarter stopping off and asking passing Bedou "have you seen......?" and then drawing a picture in the sand, while matey sat rotors running a little way off. I often wondered in later years what the little kids thought we were, as I approached their little barousti shelter. "Do you know he was all blue with a silver head and a black face and as he got nearer - HE TOOK HIS HEAD OFF!!!!! and spoke to my Dad" You can see where the myths about spacemen could come from. Going out with theTrucial Oman Scouts and marvelling at the drivers nav skills (no GPS then). Borrowing a horse from the same unit's stables and riding down to the beach and as the nag was getting the better of me pulling it into deeper water until it slowed and became more manageable.
AND as a true Scot, I'm wearing as I type, the Seiko Seahorse watch I bought from Sheikh Robbie's emporium for three quid. It still keeps time plus/minus a couple of minutes a week - in retirement do I need any more accuracy? Naaaahhhh
I don't think that life is as free-wheeling as it was then, in the sandpit now - more's the pity.
The Ancient Mariner