Your routes into Flight Testing

[scruggs]

Hi all,

I’ve started this thread as would like to invite all the FTE’s and TP’s out there to tell their stories of how they made their way into flight testing. I believe us wannabe flight testers would benefit from reading your success stories.

Cheers,

eP.

FTE’s and TP’s – you have the floor…..

[SCaro]

No one wants to give anything away?

I'll start. I'm probably one of the rarer examples of someone who did not start out wanting to be a test pilot but ended up as one after all. I started out as an aeronautical engineer who likes to fly. I have only worked for small airplane companies in Europe and the US with small to very small engineering departments and got roped into testing what I designed, since it is always cheaper to have someone on staff do this than hiring a consultant. I'm mostly self-taught on the job, and have learned a lot from flying with other test pilots.

[scruggs]

SCaro, thanks for (hopefully) starting the ball rolling here. I must say, it seems strange to me that so few are willing to share their experiences with aspiring FTE's/TP's. It's quite the opposite over in wannabe forums - commercial pilots are only too eager to tell how they made it to where they are :)

[JimmyTAP]

After getting my BSc in aero eng, I wrote to Scruggs aerospace at a well known aircraft manufacturing facility near Panshanger saying Gisajob. Got one as an FTE. Still an FTE only moved to a place that used to build the worlds only 4 jet engine regional airliner and now the worlds only 4 jet engine maritime patrol aircraft.
No formal FTE training apart the usual safety training; dinghy drills, hypoxia demos etc. Managed to accumulate 1600hour FTEing.

JT

[Genghis the Engineer]

It took a while, and I'm still progressing. But...

- Aero-eng apprenticeship at RAE
- Aero-eng degree, joined UAS, various jobs in summer, including a brief spell in FT at Westlands, which turned my head
- Graduated, first job not very interesting, second as a very junior FTE at a certain establishment
- Got a PPL in own time and money, built up experience
- Built up experience, attended (with variable success) ETPS FTE course
- Next job, running a ground test section at the same establishment
- Left for a job in GA certification and testing, on the back of civil licences and military FT experience, started to slide into LH seat.
- Did a PhD in flight test technique development in my own time, with a reputable university aero-department.
- Picked up bits of aero-eng consultancy, including a certain British manufacturer of light twins, on whose books I'm still an FTE.
- Gravitated to a more general role, best described as "Boffin" although still with a high FT content. Currently spending a lot of my spare (ha!) time upgrading civil licences, working on basic FT technique development, and at last count have flown about 160 sorties as FTE, 150 sorties as TP, another 50 or so sorties doing routine airworthiness renewal tests, and a total of 96 types, about 2/3 of them in FT; also currently working on evaluation of reconfigurable simulators in various forms. You'll notice that the actual FT sortie rate is pretty low (and I'm considered moderately experienced), that's normal - the ratio of writing to flying has always been poor, and the ratio of general flying to FT flying not that much better for most flight testers.

All damned hard work, very satisfying, wouldn't have changed much except possibly the money which has never been poor, but never been particularly good either. (Okay, and a couple of particular incidents, but everybody has those.)

There's a story in William Thompson's book "Aerospace Flight Test Engineer" (a brilliant read by the way), about a boy who ran away from home to the circus. His dad followed him and eventually found him in the next town, shovel in hand, shovelling and knee-deep in elephant doings. "Son", said the dad "please come home": "what", said his son, looking around him "and miss all this glamour of showbusiness". Welcome to flight test!

G

[Affirmatron]

easyPilot

The easiest way into FT/TP world is to declare yourself the 'ultimate font of all knowledge' and present yourself to everybody you meet, and on PPrune, as a fully qualified TP/FTE. There is no formal accreditation for this job and as such, spread as much propaganda about yourself as you can, and eventually somebody will take you seriously. As such, think carefully before starting/finishing any course.

Make sure you NEVER enter into any sort of banter, especially on this solemn website.

Take measures to censor anybody who says anything you don't like.

Whilst the above sounds flippant, if you do it you'll be a CTP within a year.

Just a thought.

Affirmatron, standing by to be deleted, OUT.

[scruggs]

Mate,

I'm up for a laugh and joke as much as anyone - I support West Bromwich Albion and have a Brummie accent for god sake!

But to be fair, I started this thread to obtain genuine information on how TP’s and FTE’s made their way into this very niche area of aviation. So I’d appreciate it if this particular thread could be kept on track. By all means, start a separate thread in this forum and air your views, jokes and opinions. It’s up to GtE whether the thread remains or not. But please, don’t hi-jack this potentially useful thread.

Many thanks :ok:
eP.

[Affirmatron]

easyPilot

I don't see why what I said was incorrect, everything in it is TRUE. Trust me, some people have done it this way. Getting into a niche area, is largely bull$hit and bluster, and anybody that tells you otherwise is lying.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, my Nan could call herself an FTE or TP if she wanted to. I thought people might want to know that there are many people working in the industry without formal qualifications/accreditation, which might alter the way you think about spending your own money and time getting qualifications that aren't needed; perhaps the MOST useful information.

[scruggs]

Granted, I appreciate that the above route you describe may have been your particular route in to Flight Testing – if that indeed is the area you are working in. But perhaps I should be a little more specific about what information I was hoping for.

Posts by GtE, JimmyTAP and SCaro are what I was after. A brief industrial/educational background if you will. Describing their general route from leaving education, through industrial experience, to their present position in Flight Testing.

Your comment “And if people can't filter the chaff of humour from the evidence of facts, maybe they shouldn't be in Flight Test in the first place”. If that was aimed at me, I question your reasoning as it appears your initial MOT joke was aimed at a particular member on this forum, and thus the context of the joke will only be understood by the parties involved. If the comment was aimed at a particular member, be it myself or anyone else, perhaps a PM might be the best way to do it. If it was a personal attack, I fail to see why you do it publicly.

I’m not a moderator, so all I can do is kindly request that you don’t post more posts of the above ilk in this particular thread, and in turn I won’t have to write any more replies of this nature. It was my intention to start this thread and then leave it to the FTE’s and TP’s to continue it. This is the direction I’d prefer this post to go from here on in.

Cheers,
eP.

[Affirmatron]

eP

Not about you.

A

[FTE Pruner]

EP,

good topic choice, but no reason why we can't give serious answers whilst having some banter. If it wasn't for banter, we would all go mad!

I did some on the job training, went to one of the 4 and now work as an FTE.

Affirmatron, I hope your car passes it's MOT soon.

FTEP

[Raymond Ginardon]

easyPilot

I don't see why what I said was incorrect, everything in it is TRUE. Trust me, some people have done it this way. Getting into a niche area, is largely bull$hit and bluster, and anybody that tells you otherwise is lying.

I've said it before and I'll say it again, my Nan could call herself an FTE or TP if she wanted to. I thought people might want to know that there are many people working in the industry without formal qualifications/accreditation, which might alter the way you think about spending your own money and time getting qualifications that aren't needed; perhaps the MOST useful information.

And if people can't filter the chaff of humour from the evidence of facts, maybe they shouldn't be in Flight Test in the first place.

There's a story in Enid Blighton's book "Five go mad in Flight Test Engineering" (a brilliant read by the way), about a boy who ran away from home to a Flight Test School. He was chopped but later went on to become CTP of the inner galactic quadrant. And a moderator. An over zealous one.

You do raise a good point there actually Affirm - There is a lot of difference between one 'CTP' and another 'CTP'. I know of some (no names obviously) who delight in using that title but don't realise quite how comical the genuine test community find it/them.

I definitely think there is room for banter here - it happens at work with colleagues, anyone who is genuinely involved in flight test experiences it (to some degree or other) - it's what helps us keep our sanity.

As to the original question, I took a similar route to Matthew Parsons.

Ray :-)

And 'big picture' wise - remember that this is not the 'Test Community', it's a website where anyone can claim to be anything - there is some good gen, but be weary of 'empty vessels........". Affirmatron is closer to the truth than some would care to face up to.

[scruggs]

I agree, banter is great – when it’s not personally offensive. Obviously I don’t know the story behind the MOT comment, but GtE seemed to dislike the comment.

As long as this thread stays on topic – and nobody gets offended – I’m all for banter! Just don’t slate my football team, it’s a sore subject :( .

[Genghis Couldn't]

GtE,

Ok, I have to ask (been trying to figure it out all day!) - what do you mean by "(with variable success)"? Surely you either graduate or fail to? Am I woofing up the wrong tree?!

Cheers,

GC

[Genghis the Engineer]

GtE,

Ok, I have to ask (been trying to figure it out all day!) - what do you mean by "(with variable success)"? Surely you either graduate or fail to? Am I woofing up the wrong tree?!

Cheers,

GC
I failed to graduate - to be precise I was chopped in the middle of "pilots assessment" (FTE assessment?), this is quite common knowledge and has been discussed here before. Hence "attended with variable success", also probably hence a very high degree of determination to stay and progress in this fascinating field. It was for a time an unhappy and humiliating phase of my life, although a long time ago and a failure which I hope that I've made up for in other achievements since; clearly Affirmatron doesn't believe so - my FTE and TP authorisations being limited to some classes of lighter aircraft and having only come from UK-CAA, with the trivial endorsment of being accepted as a full member of SETP (although it means a great deal to me), similarly I'm sure my PhD in flight test technique development was also trivial - although the university that awarded it (and my PhD supervisor, who is also ETPS' external academic examiner) might feel otherwise. Embarrassing I know, as of-course is being banned from a bulletin board for making personal attacks on a moderator and repeatedly making personal postings after being specifically asked not to. (Correct Affirmatron, I don't have a sense of humour about certain things.)

Incidentally in the organisation where I am authorised as a TP, the CTP is Wyvern, an occasional on this forum and a far more experienced pilot (test or otherwise) than I ever expect to be.

Now, if you gents will excuse my bluntness, EasyPilot asked a reasonable question, and anybody diverting this thread further with personal comments about anybody but themselves, will also be banned from the forum.

Incidentally, it was me some years ago who persuaded Danny Fyne to create an FT forum on PPrune. He did so only on the condition that I became forum moderator - something that I hope I've done reasonably well whilst continuing to post my own views. I did not appoint myself moderator, or even ask to be so, I just hope I do a reasonable job. If I don't, please as I asked Affirmatron, give me your views privately please. If you feel I don't treat your private criticisms seriously enough, the site owner is Danny.

G

[stump2]

Good Thread! Always wanted to be TP. Did the USAF route after BS and MS in Aerospace Engr. After nine years as a Fighter Pilot finally got enough on resume to get into USAF TPS. Hardest. most interesting school ever attended! Over next 16 years spent 3 tours at Edwards AFB (truly a meca of aviation). After selection to wing commander, jumped ship to Southwest Airlines. While airline pay and quality of life beat anything I experience in 26 years of USAF flying, no job is or was better than a squadron Test Pilot in the F-16! :ok:
Cheers,
stump

[Gadget freak]

My way in....
1. Engineering degree
2. I applied for a job with a large multi-national defence manufacturer
3. I was given a job in the flight test department
4. I slowly learned enough to think about calling myself a flight test engineer.
Not too complicated really!
My advice for what it's worth....
Try and get a job in a large and established flight test department. These organsiations are the ones who can afford to spend money on training.
Try not to bullsh1t too much.
Integrity and the respect of your peers are important in a small specialism. If you BS, you have neither.

[Octoflugral]

And mine:

Degree in physics, Masters that 'morphed' into a PhD in Aero Eng (might sound impressive, but for those in the know, a PhD is not that special!).

Job with a major defence contractor (again, not that difficult to get).

Listened, learnt, listened some more, learnt more, made mistakes, learnt from them (etc, etc).

Overall, for me, it more or less 'happened' - of course I had to put the work in, but you have to for most things :-)

Octo

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

Technically, mine isn't a "route to being an FTE/TP" - since I'm neither - but I have spent too many hours "flight testing" to not want to comment.

Basically, if what you want is to be "involved" in flight testing it doesn't necessarily mean you're flying; if getting airborne isn't the goal, then there are FAR more people involved in a test team firmly anchored to the ground, which means that for someone looking to get involved, it might be a bit easier to start off as an engineer (design/development type) and then develop (regress! ;)) into an FTE type role. Many companies second staff from the 'pure' engineering departments to flight test teams, and it would be possible to drift into a more permanent role there if you played your crads right. It's probably not a plausible role to TP - since you need to make two career changes, which is going to eat up time - but its very plausible for FTE, we've had guys do it. If you went that route I'd be tempted to advise going for a systems engineering role at first, because structural guys have very few reasons to do flight testing, their stuff is invariable rig tested, and because the basic FTE training will probably be weaker on systems than on aero, so if the company is looking to "fill a spot" its more likely to be for someone to specialise in the systems stuff. But that's just an opinion ...

Any, FWIW, my career path was:
* Maths degree followed by 1 year MSc
* 9 years at 'Scruggs Aerospace' as an aerodynamicist - where we didn't get involved much directly in testing, since the Flight Test group were very self-sufficient (or 'insular', depending on your POV!)
* 9 years and counting in Canada, again as an aerodynamicist (which they call 'flight scientist' here of course) but this time far more involved in flight testing, spending 3 of those 9 years in close proximity to ICT_SLB and a few others. I never actually went airborne, but several of my colleagues did (when, say, testing for ice and suchlike) and I've been on production test flights for troubleshooting since.

If I were to pick a single trait that will bring you success...be flexible. The chances of the 'ideal' opening being available at any given time is small; for my own case, I've never worked in the discipline for which my MSc was ostensible preparation; my first company reassigned me to a different job to the one they had planned for me before I showed up. My company change was actually to a subtly different discipline; I got involved in the flight test teams by accident, or circumstance, twice. If I'd ever said "no, my career plan says I want to do X" I'd never have got where I am - though thats not to say having a plan is bad.

[ICT_SLB]

Like M(F)S, I'm also "in Flight Test" but not a TP or FTE. I have, however, been known to contribute to the overall Weight & Balance of an Experimental aircraft (as Self-Loading Ballast). This includes seeing parts of the Mid-West from some very extreme angles (never go along with an ex-F18 driver & an ex-Tornado jockey when they're trying to outdo each other in clearing a civil HUD for "Unusual Attitudes").

I started out doing a Student Apprenticeship in the Civilian Division of Scrugg's and was in the Avionics/Electrical Design office until it became VERY apparent that the UK Civil market was on its last legs. This led to 5 years at the Lazy B as a shopper where I found I was one of the few not to have worked for Scrugg's Military Division. Keeping this side of the pond, I joined Canabeer in their Avionics group (then smaller than most mod. shops). After they were given to Bombardair, I was in the RJ design group that, like all the older programmes, morphed over to the Flight Test group ("We're doing the Flight Test in Wichita, do you want to join us?"). Been doing FT in the Air Capital just about ever since - with timeouts for Learjet report writing, RJ Autopilot & HGS Certifications.

As I've said before, modern FT is a team sport with contributions from people in the air and on the ground - even more so with the growing importance of simulation & system integration before, during and after flight test.

[scruggs]

By the replies gratefully received, am I correct in saying formal accreditation is not required to perform the role of TP or FTE in certain organizations?

So, which companies in the UK (or any where else for that matter) are likely to fund their FTE’s/TP’s through formal training? The ETPS FTE course for example.

I’d like to take the opportunity to thank those who have contributed, and invite more to do the same.

Cheers,
eP.

[Pilot DAR]

Hello everyone,

I have yet to meet the industry's educational standards for "test pilot", and thus do not refer to myself as being one. I do, however, fly various modified aircraft to assure their continued compliance with the prevailing design standard. I do this in my capacity as a Transport Canada Design Approval Representative (DAR). It is facinating, a wealth of opportunities to learn, and assist aircraft operators in accomplishing their unique aviation activities. The result of my "test" flying (and recommending a finding of compliance of the mod) would be Supplemental Type Certificate (STC) or Limited (STC) approval of the mod. Simple LSTC's I am able to issue myself.

How'd I get here? 'Couldn't have planned it! I always hung around the local airstrip, and got involved however I could find a way to help (washed a lot of aircraft bellies). After earning a pilot's license, I assisted in maintenance, and obtaining Transport Canada approval for modifications and repairs. Through the generousity of many poeple, I gained experience in many different aircraft. I bought a plane, so I could fly as I wished (It has seemed to help in being taken seriously). I also flew with the owners of the newly modified aircraft to help them understand the changes. These were mostly STOL kit, float and ski installations, and LORAN/GPS installations. More and more projects came along which were more involved, as owners found the companies with which I worked. The skills of the people in those companies in making good aircraft design changes, made it easy for me to show the plane well. More projects resulted in more flying and more learning.

The approval application work gave me lots of opportunity to get to know Transport Canada staff, and how things are done. Seven years ago, I was invited to make application to be a DAR, and thereby work somewhat independantly on behald of Transport Canada. This privilage has presented many more opportunities to learn and fly. Some of these opportunities have shown how not to do things, but in general, it's great to be a participant. I research what I'm doing (this website helps), draw upon my experience, and follow the examples set by so many other pilots whom I have known.

My opinion of the important traits for a person starting out on this path, are those of an honest, professional attitude, with a real appreciation of the wisdom which can be found in all of the other aviation people around you. A bit of adventureousness, and a sense of when to not push (planes, people or weather) should keep you pointed on the right track. It seems to me that the pilots who have earned the positions of test pilot, before those of us who are still working at it, are really not interested in surrounding themselves with junior people, who pester, boast, and are otherwise too conspicuous.

If all else fails, think of it this way, before you do something in someone else's expensive aircraft, ask yourself: "If I owned this plane, would I still do this?" and "Would I be proud to explain to the owner, or his insurance company, why I did that?". The cost to your professional future is too high for a rush from a joyride! If you want the rush, hire an instructor and rent the plane!

I hope that helps those who are starting out. I was once where you are!

Cheers...

[CaptainSandL]

eP

I am not an FTP or FTE just a humble Continued Airworthiness Flight Test (now called Check Flight) pilot. It is hugely interesting and great fun and probably a more realistic goal if you are not likely to be going through ETPS or similar.

My route:
- Physics degree
- First airtest in 1985 as the observer on a UAS Bulldog – loved it!
- In GA for a long time, got CAA briefed (approval) for C of A renewal airtests on group A & B aircraft. Did about 50 on various types.
- Joined the airlines and got onto the team of F/O’s used for CAWFT on the 737.
- Got my command and it all went very quiet for several years whilst I accumulated experience on type.
- Dead mans shoes at my airline to take the next vacancy for CAWFT Captain. The numbers are restricted to ensure continuity. Most airlines only have a few.
- Got briefed (approved) and check flight with CAA TP & FTE. Learnt a helluvalot from them since I did not have any formal FT training.
- Have been doing a few each month for the last couple of years. Probably up to about 60 full profile and 40 partials (usually aileron/elevator power offs) on Classics & NGs.

If you want to do it, you can, and from any background. The problem is that there are very few places because there are so few check flights and inevitably those with a formal TP qualification will get the gig, all other things being equal.

Good luck

S&L

[COL4Tinman]

I got into Aviation as an 18 year old kid where I joined the military. I was an avionics tech. I progressed in the military and became a Flight Engineer on the mighty C-130. During my enlistment I earned my E.E. degree and then left active duty. I taught Avionics at a local school while I earned my ratings. I instructed for a few years until my National Guard unit was activated to go to the sand box(Iraq). After my activation I really wanted to become a Test Pilot. I went to work for an aircraft manufacturer as an A&P mechanic. After I proved myself and learned the aircraft through and through, I was moved into flight operations. After about 6 months of OJT and many hours of unpaid overtime I was allowed to perform my wery own first flight production flight test. Since then I have completed over 200 first flights. I am not flying F-15's or BBJ's but I am having the time of my life!

Good luck!! And remember, if you want it bad enough, you can have it!

[UB6IB9]

Hey,

I was just reading your post about routes to becoming a test pilot. I was wondering if I could ask you a few questions. If you don't mind me asking...is it actually possible to work for companies like lockheed, boeing ect and actually get promoted to flight test...flying military aircraft without any military flight training? Because if it is...I'm finishing up my Aero Eng. Degree here in Canada and heading down south.

Cheers

[scruggs]

Firstly, thank you very much indeed for all your informative replies.

I have been looking at joining the Society of Flight Test Engineers. Are there any members here? If so, are they a useful society to be affiliated with in terms of the information they provide their members?

Many thanks again,

eP.

[Milt]

Categories of TPs

Early flight testing determined whether a design could or could not fly. More often it would not fly and the testing often proved fatal to the would be pilot. Gradually the basic elements of flight and the control of aircraft began to be understood but there remains to this day some unexplored and little understood areas for further research and development.

Flight testing has become divided into two principal areas. Firstly there is Experimental Flight Testing for the purpose of developing original aircraft designs and associated systems into satisfactory end products suitable for their purposes. Secondly there is Production and Maintenance Flight testing to determine that developed aircraft fly and perform to already established specifications.

The pilot most suitable for production and maintenance flight testing has to be as experienced as possible on the aircraft type and able to safely assess the often subtle differences between the performance and handling of existing designs and systems.

The Experimental Test Pilot is required to have special attributes. The broadest of flying experience is fundamental. Additionally he/she must be specially trained in the wide range of flight testing techniques and methods, have a detailed knowledge of aeronautical engineering and an ability to accurately produce written reports on complex problems. This pilot often has the ultimate responsibility for the satisfactory performance and safe handling of a design for production. The difficulties in providing adequate experience and knowledge to the experimental test pilot has led to specialisation. Unfortunately specialisation narrows experience in other areas but is a consequence of an ever widening base of aviation knowledge and technology.

Often an experimental test pilot will be called upon to fill both roles. Production or maintenance test pilots cannot be reliably used for experimental flight testing except for elementary purposes.

[scruggs]

Hope you don't mind me bumping this - just in case some folks out there missed it first time around.

Merry Christmas + Happy New Year to all here in FT :ok:

[FlyTester]

-Completed PPL in college
-B.S. in Space Science
-Hired on with the Space Station prime contractor at Kennedy Space Center as a systems test engineer (incidentally the ISS hardware I worked on back in '00-'01 was recently bolted on in orbit.)
-Transfered to the emerald city to work as an FTE in the company's big shiny airliners division. Worked as an Avionics/Autoflight FTE on X3X-9XX, X5X-3XX, X4X-4XXER, X6X-4XXER, and X7X.
-Took a leave of absence to learn to fly jets in the USAF Reserve.
-High speed low levels were not my forte so after 2.5 years I went back to the civilian job
-Picked up where I left off at the company.
-Currently a test conductor aboard X3X,X4X and X7Xs.

[Super Galeb G4]

HI everybody,

Very glad that I found this forum, some nice things on it and this thread especially. Here is my journey through this.

Grew up at the local sport aviation center (true airport junkie)
Started skydiving and flying gliders when I turned 16,
Graduated from Embry Riddle Aeronautical University with the degree in Aircraft Engineering Technology,
Attended senior level flight testing course at ERAU, tought by Pat Anderson
1000 Jumps in between, at least 200 not logged hours in various airplanes, and 4 flight tests with everyday assignments here I am.

Have interviews lined up with several companies and definitely going in as FTE (but I also love the role of design and performance engineer as well)

Oh by the way, I was told that I am not very suitable for FTE since I don't mind leaving the airplane at all, give me 1000 Ft and I'm gone if I hear something strange or feel something that doesn't seem right.

What can I say, blue skies

Marko

[Genghis the Engineer]

G4 - are you saying that you have worked as a test parachutist? If so, I'm sure we'd all be fascinated if you want to talk more about your work, since although we all know they exist, few of us have much real idea about how that particular job is done (well, I don't anyway).

G

(Oh yes, and welcome to the forum)

[Super Galeb G4]

Hi G,

Glad that you asked that, here is the story. There is no such thing as test parachutist license, I mean yes in some armies there is a internal rating that you get with the experience but skydiving equipment manufacturers usually use very very experienced sport skydivers and instructors that actually determine the course of rig development.

Legally it takes USPA D license (master license) which you get when you have 500 jumps and you meet certain conditions. So here I am working my way through college and jumping occasionally at Skydive DeLand Fla, ofcourse there are major equipment manufacturers there and they test their stuff on the daily basis, roughly 100 000 jumps per year at that airport just to get the idea of crowded sky.

So anyhow, all I wanted is to get cheaper jumps so that I can put some ease on my tight buget, so since I knew factory test jumpers very well I kinda get into it doing stuff that they didn't wanna do or simply didn't have time to do.

I have about 40 different test jumps and while that might seem like something dangerous it is actually nothing more than a simple jump with a piece of test equipment and at least on certified reserve or in some cases two, so no biggie.

We usually tested canopies for flight characteristics, filmed opening procedures, measured opening forces, tested cutaway systems etc.

How you do it, well you strap one camera for your leg, one for you helmet, both looking up, you jump, open main canopy, get over the airport and cut away, then pull a reserve and you film all that. I was also a tandem passenger few times for a new harness system and many times for brand new instructors that needed a dummy student that knew what to do in any kind of situation that you might get into during the jump.

So it boils down to that at the time I was getting staff discount and my jumps were $13.5, this way somebody else paid for it, I got to jump and also mine weekend adrenalin dose was there and everybody was happy.

Anyhow in my previous post I was saying that I had only 4 flight tests during our course at ERAU. After all I like to keep myself at engineering lever and skydiving is weekend fun only.

So if somebody needs FTE in Europe or USA call me, you know what they say, will fly for food, lol.

G4

[LastMinute]

I'm a lifelong wannabe pilot but I can't get the medical.

Studied Computer Science at university in the U.K. and U.S.A.

Spent several years in Flight Simulation, first on training systems and later on a development rig for a (mostly) new aircraft.

Heard over beers that Flight Test were hiring and thought it would be a good chance to work on the real aircraft instead of a simulator.

Got a job as an avionics specialist developing the flight test programme for the Flight Management System.

Left less than a year later after the disappointing realisation that, in my corner of the world at least, Flight Test Engineering involved very little flying, very little testing and very little engineering.

Currently looking for a new job. Back to software, methinks...


-Currently a test conductor aboard X3X,X4X and X7Xs.

Out of interest, how much flight testing is done on these "established" aircraft (assuming I've correctly guessed what 'X' is ;))? What type of testing do you typically do, and how often do you fly?

[FlyTester]

Left less than a year later after the disappointing realisation that, in my corner of the world at least, Flight Test Engineering involved very little flying, very little testing and very little engineering.

It amazes me when I peruse the classifieds I often see ads for FTEs that appear to be positions that draw upon your experience as an FTE but in fact involve little flying. Sometimes the nature of the beast dictates this (Single-seat aircraft, UAVs, munitions, etc). I would say if you're looking for real cutting edge FTE job postings, the SFTE (http://www.sfte.org) classifieds appear to have more COOL positions rather than the paper pushing jobs you'll find on places like Monster.com

Out of interest, how much flight testing is done on these "established" aircraft (assuming I've correctly guessed what 'X' is ;))? What type of testing do you typically do, and how often do you fly?

Short answer: LOTS. Once you've certified an airplane, it becomes a dinosaur if you don't update it with advances in safety and technology. I'm not even talking derivative airplanes here. Nearly every aerodynamic tweak, every FMC S/W update, every new gadget and gizmo must be proven and then certified in-flight. The extent to which you test is often dictated on the level of familiarity or confidence your local regulatory body has in the change.

And then of course there are the new models and deriviatives undergoing extensive test programs with the higher risk performance and handling qualities testing one normally associates with the Flight Test profession.

Generally one works the existing model testing when in between the larger programs.

In larger flight test organizations, FT Ops engineers (those who configure and conduct tests) are usually assigned to airplanes/programs and may fly 3 to 4 times as often as the FT analysis engineers responsible for specific disciplines of testing. Note that this is in contrast to smaller test organizations (such as general aviation manufacturers), where your Ops and Analysis roles often performed by the same person.

In my current capacity aboard one LION (http://www.lionair.co.id/main.asp) of an airplane, I fly about twice a week.

For the year, I've logged about 145 hrs in a variety of models.

[Wind Up Turn]

LastMinute check your PM's
WUT:)

[triple_2]

Hi guys,

As a commercial pilot and FI, I would like to broaden my horizon and start doing an undergraduate in Aerospace Engineering. Since I have to (and want to) work, I have to do it online (it's going to be a 10 year project probably). Currently I'm in talks with Embry Riddle but they can only offer me an online undergraduate Professional Aeronautics. All very nice but if I want to get involved in engineering that's useless. Maybe someone here knows a good university offering online?

Cheers

[Genghis the Engineer]

Hi guys,
As a commercial pilot and FI, I would like to broaden my horizon and start doing an undergraduate in Aerospace Engineering. Since I have to (and want to) work, I have to do it online (it's going to be a 10 year project probably). Currently I'm in talks with Embry Riddle but they can only offer me an online undergraduate Professional Aeronautics. All very nice but if I want to get involved in engineering that's useless. Maybe someone here knows a good university offering online?
Cheers
Nowhere in the UK I'm afraid at BEng / BSc level (as many people will know, this is a long time grouch of mine!), although there are MSc options.
Globally, ERAU may well be the best option, they should offer aeronautical / areospace engineering first degrees - see what can be patched together from existing modules. Something along the same lines *might* be do-able if you talk actively to the OU, although I'd not hold out an enormous amount of hope in that direction.
The lack of any distance learning first degree in either mechanical or aeronautical engineering in the UK personally I regard as scandalous, but to date my numerous efforts to persuade various universities to start offering one have not fallen on fertile ground!
G

[ICT_SLB]

Triple_2,

You might want to check out our local university, Wichita State, at www.wichita.edu. It houses the National Institute of Aviation Research and a quick look at the Spring classes shows both internet-based and remote learning Aviation courses at all levels with campus locations such as "London, England" and "Italy".

I beleive they provide remote learning facilities on some USAF bases - some of our ex-mil guys were taking their Bachelors at the local Wichita AFB, McConnell, rather than at WSU itself.

[triple_2]

Genghis and ICT_SLB. Thank you so much for your advise. Really helpful. :ok:

I will have a look at your suggestions and will let you know.

[HyFlyer]

It's a while ago now, but I started an interesting aviation career, that has meandered around somewhat, in FT.

Physics degree with an engineering course tacked on via graduate apprentice scheme with large military aircraft company. Lots of exposure to different activites in the military aircraft design and building environment before landing the place in FT dept. Years of work from junior to actually getting to schedule flights and sign off results analysis. Along the way an FTE course at Cranfield, company sponsored and additional systems and operational course as well as conferences. Mainly listen and learn from the old timers...they actually know a lot in a decent FT dept. 25 years later I still remember and practice things I learnt there. after a more than a semi-decade realised there is a big world out there and an FT salary isn't going to cut it....at least not unless you get CFT in a major company.

Then moved into engineering project management (still with an FT focus), and from there, realising the real $ was in sales and finance.....so into those areas...and gradually moving from the bizjet world and some serious $. Trade aircraft now...........

Lots of travel, lots of time flying with some of the best of the best.......(at least that what they told me :-)) Had opportunity to get own pilot qualifs....

FT is a great way into aviation, and opens lots of doors.

Je ne regret rien.....

[scruggs]

Nowhere in the UK I'm afraid at BEng / BSc level (as many people will know, this is a long time grouch of mine!), although there are MSc options.
Globally, ERAU may well be the best option, they should offer aeronautical / areospace engineering first degrees - see what can be patched together from existing modules. Something along the same lines *might* be do-able if you talk actively to the OU, although I'd not hold out an enormous amount of hope in that direction.
The lack of any distance learning first degree in either mechanical or aeronautical engineering in the UK personally I regard as scandalous, but to date my numerous efforts to persuade various universities to start offering one have not fallen on fertile ground!
G

I have spoken to the head of my department about the very same subject. His reply was that engineering degrees of any kind require extensive practical work to back up the theory learnt in lectures/self study. Whilst the latter could be accomplished via distance learning, the practical work could not. During my undergrad degree (Elec eng) almost every module had practical labs tagged on - which I personally feel was essential.

We offer distance learning masters degrees - but the students must attend labs throughout the year. It is also the reason why we do not offer distance learning PhDs.

For what it’s worth, I too would like to see these subjects offered as distance learning undergrad degrees – but they must keep the practical work included.

Cheers,
eP.

[Genghis the Engineer]

That is generally the objection that I've heard - however the OU (for example) manages to run degrees in biology by distance learning, so I'd regard it as a problem to be solved rather than a showstopper. The difficulty then is to find somebody with both the resources and will to solve the problems! So far, I've failed miserably in that.

G

[scruggs]

That is generally the objection that I've heard - however the OU (for example) manages to run degrees in biology by distance learning, so I'd regard it as a problem to be solved rather than a showstopper. The difficulty then is to find somebody with both the resources and will to solve the problems! So far, I've failed miserably in that.
G

If I recall the degrees OU run which do have some elements of practical work, the OU run intensive style experiment weeks at various Universities around the UK to allow the students to go in and knock all the experiments required in a short time.

I personally cannot see why this can't be done on a larger scale with a wider selection of courses. For example, our undergrad teaching labs go unused from July-October. A great opportunity to get some distance learners in! Although the majority of academics in my group see July-October as their intensive research period where they do not have to suffer the interruptions of students.

[stressmerchant]

I'm not actually in test flight, so perhaps my input is not really useful for this thread, but my few cents (or pennies) worth.
I qualified as an aeronautical engineer, but couldn't find long term work due to a downturn. Did some financial qualifications, went to work for a listed company doing strategic planning, marketing, mergers & acquisitions and so on. Got my PPL, took up aerobatics, bought an aeroplane.
My basic love was still flying, and I still had a desire to get into test work. I spoke to some of the people on this list, got some good advice. Also spoke to a well known local test pilot who gave me some hard but good advice. Firstly, he said that trying to get into test work from outside aviation was pointless. If you are not close to the door, when it opens you won't get through. I took a contract position in aero engineering - same pay, lower perks, but better job satisfaction. After two years the employer then sent me on a short operational test course, was a great learning experience. Most important, a learning experience I would not have got if I had been outside the industry.
The second bit of advice I got was to be careful about academic courses. Experience counts beyond the initial course. He said that test work was a combination of academic and practical. If you can't work with the practical, academics is going to be a waste of time. On the short course I went on, I saw brilliant engineers who struggled to write down a single data point in flight. If I was paying the bills, I'd also demand practical experience from people I hired.
In my case, I don't know what the future holds. Maybe I'll become an FTE, maybe I won't. But I do think the advice I was given was sound.
What do the experts think?

[LastMinute]

If I was paying the bills, I'd also demand practical experience from people I hired.
I see your point, but if you become a hiring manager, don't aggravate a chicken and egg situation. How can I get any experience if nobody will let me fly because I've got no experience?

[ICT_SLB]

From talking to the guys doing their BSc at the AFB that they also do practical lab work at the training center - plus, of course, the majority are following up what they already do on the job i.e. mechs take Mechanical degrees & sparkies do Electrical. Remembering back to the often unsupervised practicals at college this has to be just as effective.

[G. This is probably as interesting a subject as any we have recently but this sub-thread isn't really "How I got into FT" - perhaps you could split it off?]

[Genghis the Engineer]

[G. This is probably as interesting a subject as any we have recently but this sub-thread isn't really "How I got into FT" - perhaps you could split it off?]

Wilco, but please carry on for the moment - bit maxed right now.

G

[scruggs]

I'll bump this one last time to see if anyone else would like to contribute. It's been a fascinating thread, with some extremely useful info being provided.

I'd like to once again thank all those who constructively contributed to this thread.

All the best,

scruggs
(formerly easyPilot, but I changed username because people kept emailing me asking if I worked to for easyJet :ugh:).

[Mork]

Hello to you all. Here's my story...

-BS. Aeronautical Studies

-Flew for a few different airlines. (Furloughed a couple of times).

-Invited to undergo flight test school for a year.

-Flight testing since then. (Still learning a ton, by the way.)


In other words, I have never dreamt of becoming a TP. I was offered a position because I was in the right place at the right time. The company was happy to have me because of my airline experience, and I was happy to finally leave the airliners (got a little bit bored). I'm loving every second of this job. I believe my path would not be the norm, though.

Take care,

Mork

[Boltzman]

Hello all

Scruggs, interesting thread ! Here's my story so far.

Got a degree in engineering then slowly progressed through various flying qualifications whilst holding down a sequence of interesting engineering jobs, mostly in systems & instrumentation.

I've now got a CPL / Frozen ATPL and am working as a full-time engineer and part-time flying instructor. So I'm doing lots of flying (which I love) and lots of engineering (which keeps my brain free of rust and pays reasonably) but still looking for that magic opportunity to combine these two things and do some flight test work. It definitely looks like it's a matter of "the right place at the right time", judging by a lot of the posts on this thread.

Until then, So, I'm really just a wanabe TP in truth, but maybe one day...

Good luck in your own endeavours.

Boltzman

[Straight Up Again]

I generally cal myself a 'Test Engineer' now, as there isn't a lot of the fyling bit round where I am in Dununder. I was and FTE in the UK (that was the job title, but no formal qualifications).

Started with a dgeree in electronics (graduated about '95).

Got a job a certain UK rotary aircraft place (that narrows it down to about 1:) ) in the integration and test dept, working the full system integration rigs.

My mate was a part time flyer when they had avionics problems, so when Flight Test dept advertised she applied and badgered me into applying also (for which I will always be grateful), even if it was just to get introduced and maybe then try for the part time flyer position.

I think they were looking for more avionic types to go with all the aero/struct they already had (especially on the aircraft at the time, a navl one with a lot electrical bits), and I got a job there. Spent a couple of very entertaining years there, saw the work running down a bit, so jumped ship and made a big step to Oz.

I've got no formal training as such, except a few basic courses. A week long course on Flight Test Prionciples and Practice at one the TP schools was about it, the rest were avionics and equipment based.

If you can find someone to pay you through one of the courses, go for it, but I've never met anyone who did a full course that didn't do it through the military (though I'm sure they exist).

Like I said, not so much of the flying stuff at the moment, but I still get to work on aircraft. Thinking of moving on at the moment, so anyone who needs a test engineer down here......

[portsharbourflyer]

Boltzman,

We have a near identical background, I'm an aero graduate, hold a an instructors rating and like yourself funded my way through my fATPL while working in the engineering industry. Last summer I was over the moon to be offered an airworthiness position with a certain JAR 23 manufacturer, with the the stong possibility of doing FTE work (on the grounds of having completed the Flight Test Short Course on the Cranfield Jetstream as part of the degree). However it was made clear very quickly that only having single engine piston experience as a flight instructor there was no way I would progress to the left hand seat; furthermore although essentially a civil aircraft due to the fact that nearly all projets were on a military/annex 2 register then there was no way I would have been allowed to fly anything. The problem with the UK is we no longer have any complete civil airframe manufacturer hence this makes it near impossible for "civil" pilots to progress into flight testing.

You may get into flight testing at the PFA level, but you will soon realise that once you have invested the money into a frozen ATPL you can't afford to hang around in permanent engineering jobs waiting for an opportunity for FT work. Also the airlines will give you very little credit for the engineering. That is my experience, I am now concentrating on getting a run of the mill civil flying job.

[Boltzman]

portsharbourflyer,

Very interested to hear you have had a similar experience. Good luck in getting your airline job.

I've also seriously contemplated a move into line flying but I'm in an engineering job which pays the equivalent of good FO wages, and so am reluctant to do so, especially when I need to shell out for an MCC and a type rating. I think my move into FTE/TP work is likely to be, as you mention, through PFA or GA stuff and is likely to be more of a hobby than a career. I'm certainly not putting my life on hold for it. It is a great shame that the aviation industry in this country is not what it was, and that there aren't more openings for those of us who have not gone down the military route, however good our flying and engineering backgrounds. Most (if not all) of the CAA/PFA TPs I know are ex-military too.

CEng and a CPL aught to be a magic ticket to some really cool job, but that's aviation for you: it's a totally mad industry*.

* but has this magic appeal that's unlike anything else and keeps suckers like me hanging on in there !

[portsharbourflyer]

Boltzman,
Sorry for the delay in posting, sounds as though you have a sensible outlook on things. I agree with many of your sentiments that and it seems you share the same frustrations as me with the UK aerospace industry.
I often see aero grads posting on here intending to do pilot training thinking the combination of flight training and an aero degree will lead to a test pilot career (infact I thought the same way after graduating), but after six or seven years in the aero industry my view is that test pilot positons on anything that is JAR/EASA 23 or above is the realms of the ex-military.

I certainly think in certain other countries it is possible to go FTE to TP but not in the UK, we don't have any complete airframe manufactures any more (some will say what about B-N, actually they don't tend to do many new airframes these days there are more into systems integration).

Yes I did have the opportunity to progress into FTE work, however I felt it was a case that I had to choose between FTE or civil pilot. Working in a permanent engineering job would only have allowed me to work one day a week as an instructor hence my rate of hours flown would be low. Secondly as a permanent airworthiness engineer / FTO my earnings were about half what I earn as a contract engineer hence would not have been able to afford to do me/ir renewals. Yes I am in a similar situation that a jet FO wages/turbo prop captain salary would be a slight pay cut, but only because I am a contractor; when I see what my equivalent technical grade in a permanent position earns the airline wages start to look more favourable. However good luck with whatever you decide.

[scruggs]

Thanks once again to all who have posted.

So in reading all the replies, I have formed the opinion that it is better to get hired by a company that has an FT department, and then make the transition to that department. This rather than waiting for the holy grail of "trainee FTE wanted" to be advertised.

Do you agree with this statement guys? Or have I, as usual, completely missed the point!

Cheers,

S

[portsharbourflyer]

Well try to aim for an airworthiness position or something related to flight dynamics; these are more likey to lead to flight test engineering role than other specialisations.

[idle stop]

What a good summary! (And I'm a Rote, so substitute a bit of 'flapping around' for 'pulling G'.)
Re point 6, remember to distinguish between Comprehensible Aerodyanamics and Incomprehensible Aerodynamics.

[Mad (Flt) Scientist]

If there's someone out there teaching Comprehensible Aerodynamics someone better 'name names' so that the culprit can be identified, and then tarred and feathered. How are we supposed to maintain the mystique if people go around explaining things?:8

[ICT_SLB]

"If there's someone out there teaching Comprehensible Aerodynamics someone better 'name names' so that the culprit can be identified, and then tarred and feathered. How are we supposed to maintain the mystique if people go around explaining things?"

Careful there - you've been getting dangerously close to doing that yourself. Maybe you need a couple of weeks back in the hot house? (28 C already today) instead of the Great White North.

[John Farley]

one thing they do teach in flight testing

Well whoever 'they' are it obviously was not ETPS

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v145/johnfarley/ETPSsmall.jpg