Battle of Britain Film

[SkyHawk-N]

is currently on More 4, finishes at 11:00pm . Just in case anyone is missing it. They don't make films like that anymore! :ok:

[insty66]

You can teach.................

[ATCO17]

Best bit is Susannah York in her webbing!!:ok:

[waco]

How many hours on Spits Simon ?

Better make it 12 before Jerry has you for breakfast.

[glum]

Most of the crash scenes, especially those into water looked very real. Were they simply bloody good models and film techniques?

Or did they really destroy a bunch of planes to make the film? :uhoh:

[johno617tonka]

not sure about the water shots, but didn't they get some of the country's best craftsmen to build full size replica's (without engines of course!) simply to use on the airfield shots and be blown up ??

[SkyHawk-N]

"The engine's overheating and so am I. Either we stand down or blow up. Now which do you want? "


or


"All I got was a bellyful of English Channel!"

or

"We're not easily frightened. Also, we know how hard it is for an army to cross the channel. Last little corporal who tried came a cropper. So don't threaten or dictate to us until you're marching up Whitehall! And even then we won't listen. "



ok, I'm cheating ..... see http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064072/quotes

[treadigraph]

Crash sequences were all models - as one of our PPRuNe colleagues will attest having flown the real Spitfires and Hurricanes for the cameras.
Don't you yell at me MR Warwick!

[Green Flash]

And as for the blowing up of a real live BoB hanger, and the subsequent hail of sh!t wot hit the fan (alledgedly), well, ..... :}

[Navaleye]

"Stop that Polish chatter and steer two four zero!

"Shut up in Polish!"

[glum]

"We don't need a big wing, or a little wing, what we need is another 200 pilots."

[Maple 01]

Stand down A Flight.........

[Talking Radalt]

"Stop that Polish chatter and steer two four zero!
"Shut up in Polish!"

Repeat please! :}

[Maple 01]

Królewska Moc Powietrza nie jest lot cyrku.....

[Navaleye]

"One of you elite trying to land without wheels again"

"Undercarriage lever a bit sticky was it sir?"

"Well actually yes it was"

"Well I wouldn't tell the CO that sir if I was you"

[Belle and Sebastian]

Try the following link and type in Battle of Britain. Lots of useful 'spotter info' !!


http://www.moviemistakes.com/

[jindabyne]

ATCO17

Best bit is Susannah York in her webbing!!

Stop that, you'll have BEagle all of a quiver ----

[Green Meat]

There is (or was) one of the prop Hurricanes from BoB in the hangar at Hooton Park. Like all props it looks a bit ropey in close-up, but from about twenty feet away the prop makers did a fantastic job as, as far as I could make out, they had cast fibreglass panels from the real thing to fit over the tubular frame.

[mutleyfour]

A classic film, its one of those that you can never tire of!

[Davey Stott]

A classic film, its one of those that you can never tire of!
Wait until Hollywood decides a re-make is required :{

[chevvron]

They were making B of B in 1968 at the same time as Mosquito Squadron; I remember driving past Bovingdon and seeing a line of Mosquitos, Spitfires, Hurricanes and Me (Hispano)109s parked on the apron south of the tower.
NB A few of the sequences for B of B were launched from Bovingdon, but as far as I know, no filming actually took place there. That Shackleton pilot who did the tailchase sequences filming the Mosquito was incredible ( believe he was a Farnborough TP).

[Climebear]

Wait until Hollywood decides a re-make is required :{
That will be the one when the Americans turn up (on time for once) and win the battle without those brave boys in blue of the RAF (and FAA) having to get out of bed!!! After all they did bravely capture the engima machine....

:ugh:

Yes I know there were a few of them in the Few - this is parody

[mcidiot]

Why not, like Pearl Harbour, use CGI aircraft?

There is a website,(here) (http://www.angel.ne.jp/~tochy/) of merlin engined a/c- simply keep all of the acting parts, but change the a/c with CG ones?


Or might it be a big :mad: up?

[Tartan Giant]

Talking of models........... posted from a friend, how about this then!
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v207/TartanGiant13/cid_001501c6b16ebd5f0dc02b3ec745you.jpg
TG

[corsair]

There is a special edition DVD available. It has several documentaries on a separate disk full of interesting insights into the making of the film and into the flying of the aircraft. Well worth buying before it disappears.

[SASless]

Climebear,

Perhaps you overlook history.....the Eagle Squadrons and Polish pilots were quite ably assisted by the rest of the RAF and RN squadrons.;)

[Maple 01]

The Eagle squadrons came later SAS, there were 8-10 Americans credited with flying in the BoB, they flew with regular squadrons. The first Eagle Squadron wasn't formed until Sep 1940

Mind you, Tom Cruise might have something to say on the matter!


From the RAF website

Donahue Pilot Officer A G American 64 Sqn Killed
Fiske Pilot Officer W M L American 601 Sqn Killed*
Haviland Pilot Officer J K American 151 Sqn
Keough Pilot Officer V C American 609 Sqn Killed
Leckrone Pilot Officer P H American 616 Sqn Killed
Mamedoff Pilot Officer A American 609 Sqn Died
Tobin Pilot Officer E Q American 609 Sqn Killed

[ORAC]

Wait until Hollywood decides a re-make is required The Few (http://imdb.com/title/tt0388940/), due 2008, starring Tom Cruise.

The Saga of Billy Fiske (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3901/is_200312/ai_n9305101)

[L-H]

SASless, no Eagle Sqns existed during the BoB ol' boy. The first, 71(Eagle) Sqn was not formed until Nov 1940 - commanded by a Brit. The other two, 121 and 133 came later but eventually all were transferred to USAAF control on 29 Sep 1942. A few yanks did fly during the battle though but as members of RAF sqns.

The Poles and the Czechs did make it to the BoB albeit, like the Americans, initially commanded by Brits. My grandfather was the IO on 303 Sqn from it's formation until after the battle and luckily I have copies of most of the original combat reports he wrote, rivetting reading. Brave men one and all.

Downed Polish pilot "Good Afteernoon"

Farmworker "What?...Good afternoon my arse, get yer 'ands up come on get em up" or words to that effect!

[Maple 01]

From wiki

Billy Fiske

On August 11 he claimed the first probable kill, of a Bf 110 and on August 13 he claimed the probable kill of a Junkers Ju 88.

Ben Clinch, a weapons loader for Billy Fiske and his comrades during the summer of 1940, said, "I can't see how they can make a film of Fiske's life. It was quite short. He was unremarkable, in the context of the squadron. He was just another pilot as far as we were concerned."

This is not to take anything away from his sacrifice, just that I worry how the film will present history. His pre-RAF life seems eminently suitable for a Hollywood portrayal, however, I fear another 'Pearl Harbor' when it comes to the Battle of Britain element.

[GeeRam]

SASless, no Eagle Sqns existed during the BoB ol' boy. The first, 71(Eagle) Sqn was not formed until Nov 1940

And wasn't deemed combat ready until Jan 1941 when it finally flew it's first missions.;)

[Washington_Irving]

The Few (http://imdb.com/title/tt0388940/), due 2008, starring Tom Cruise.
The Saga of Billy Fiske (http://www.findarticles.com/p/articles/mi_qa3901/is_200312/ai_n9305101)

According to today's Sunday Times, the loopy midget will have to take a pay cut first- after his last few flops, he's priced himself out of the market and Paramount have opted not to renew the contract they have with him.

A temporary reprieve, but a reprieve nonetheless.:ok:

As for CGI aircfraft- I have yet to see a film where the action sequences look convincing.

Oh, one more thing, how can you chaps possibly forget:

"Spring chicken to ****ehawk in one easy lesson. Dakadakadakadaka..."

[Washington_Irving]

Climebear,
Perhaps you overlook history.....the Eagle Squadrons and Polish pilots were quite ably assisted by the rest of the RAF and RN squadrons.;)

PMSL. An American trying to give Brits a history lesson. Who says they have no sense of irony?:D

[SASless]

One source suggests 24% of the BoB aircrew were non-British. Indeed the Eagle Squadrons were being formed beginning in the last month of the BoB, unfortunately (depending upon how one looks at it) the Germans decided they had enough of the RAF before the three squadrons came on line.

The Hollywood version will have the Fat Man learning of the three squadrons and deciding not to face them as being the real reason for the about face.

This excerpt of an article might show what the volunteers faced in joining the RAF.....early on the law was not so lenient towards the volunteers.

Nobody knows how many ‘secret Americans’ served in the Royal Air Force during the summer of 1940, or how many Canadians who joined the RAF were actually Americans who kept their nationality a secret. (The official number is 7.)* But the real figure is probably many times higher. The only trace of their true nationality are buried in squadron rosters – ‘Tex,’ or ‘America,’ or ‘Uncle Sam.’

One of the Neutrality Acts made joining the armed forces of a ‘belligerent nation’ a criminal offense. The punishment for anyone unfortunate enough to be caught trying to join the RAF was stiff – a $20,000 fine, a ten-year prison sentence, and loss of US citizenship. To protect themselves from harassment by border patrols and the FBI, American volunteers simply declared themselves to be Canadian. Others simply went to Canada and disappeared. A volunteer from New York told a customs officer that he was going to Newfoundland ‘for some shooting.’ Americans who crossed into Canada and made their way across to England and the RAF lost their US citizenship, and technically became fugitives from justice.

Between June 1940 and December 1941, several hundred Americans volunteered to join the RAF. The best known are the fighter pilots, but others served in Bomber Command as pilots, navigators and air gunners. Among those who are known to have served with Fighter Command in the summer of 1940 was Flight Lieutenant James Davies of Bernardsville, NJ, who joined the RAF in 1936. By June 1940, he had shot down six enemy aircraft, and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. On 25 June, the day on which he was to have received the DFC from George VI, Davies was shot down and killed.

[oik]

All that's being said is that we fear a re-writing of history.
That's all.

[beamer]

OK - whats the link between the film and Pink Floyd - a bit of lateral thinking could send Quint from Jaws up the wall on this one !
nb - Take a look at Robert Shaws house - looks awfully 1960's around the door to me................

[Brewster Buffalo]

This film seems to a long time in production - following news item from September 2003... as its director is Michael Mann expect Tom to wear no socks and keep his flying jacket sleeves rolled up! :hmm:

Cruise Eyes Second Pilot Role
[/URL]
Hollywood superstar [URL="http://imdb.com/name/nm0000129/"]Tom Cruise (http://imdb.com/news/wenn/2003-09-11#celeb3) is teaming up with his Top Gun (http://imdb.com/title/tt0092099/) co-star Val Kilmer (http://imdb.com/name/nm0000174/) to play a daring pilot for the second time in World War Two epic The Few (http://imdb.com/title/tt0388940/). The movie will tell the story of American airman Billy Fiske, an Olympic athlete who risked imprisonment to fight alongside British forces before America joined the war. Fiske and a small group of men risked imprisonment by their native country by defying orders to remain neural in the bitter conflict and answering Prime Minister Winston Churchill's call to arms. Other names attached to the project are The Last Samurai (http://imdb.com/title/tt0325710/) scribe John Logan (http://imdb.com/name/nm0517589/) and director Michael Mann (http://imdb.com/name/nm0000520/) - who will also work with Cruise in upcoming movie Collateral (http://imdb.com/title/tt0369339/).

[GeeRam]

Among those who are known to have served with Fighter Command in the summer of 1940 was Flight Lieutenant James Davies of Bernardsville, NJ, who joined the RAF in 1936. By June 1940, he had shot down six enemy aircraft, and was awarded the Distinguished Flying Cross. On 25 June, the day on which he was to have received the DFC from George VI, Davies was shot down and killed.

Flt.Lt James Davies wasn't exactly an American. Although he was born in the USA, both his parents were British and he joined the RAF as a British citizen.;)

It should be remembered that although almost all the Eagle Sqn. personel transfered to the USAAF, there was a number of US flyers elsewhere in the RAF that elected to stay in the RAF for the duration.
Just 3 examples being, 'Foob' Fairbanks, one of the high scoring Tempest pilots, 'Bob' Kirkpatrick who piloted one of the 21 Sqn. Mosquitoes on the famous Shellhaus in 1945, and of course Lance Wade who was one of the RAF's leading scoring fighter pilots during WW2.....:ok:

[maxburner]

It all goes to show that there's almost nothing that an American can't do, providing he has an English officer telling him what to do.

Our two countries always work best when we work together.

[PPRuNeUser0211]

As for hollywood re-writing history, check out www.flyboysthemovie.com looks like the yanks have now claimed the air war from WW1 as well!

[Washington_Irving]

Of course, there's also the question of Tom Cruise (just turned 44) playing the role of a 29yr old. By the time filming gets going, he'll probably be pushing 46-47.

And I don't know if any of you have seen the state of Val Kilmer recently.

Tom- just be content with Top Gun. It inspired a large proportion of a certain generation to become pilots and another large proportion to become disco-dancing, Oscar Wilde-reading, Streisand ticket-holding friends of Dorothy who are "good with colours".*



* And if you have spent any time at Leuchars or Leeming, you'd know that the two groups aren't necessarily mutually exclusive.:E

[brickhistory]

Gents,

While I hope that there is a good re-make of "BoB" or another story along the same lines, to expect Hollywood, a commercial enterprise, to stay true to history at the expense of profit is silly.

I believe you still have perfectly good studios at Pinewood/Pinetree(?) and elsewhere; can't you do it yourselves? And the "Dam Busters," is that still in the cards? Or is it just to be another good round of "Yank-bashing?" If so, never mind................

Now, if they can put Keira Knightly into her "webbing," I'd pay to see that!!:}


P.S. Pity that the RAF's new Typhoon won't make, "Takatakatakataka" sounds!

[The Rocket]

I feel the need. The need for speed! Ow!:E

[teeteringhead]

Wasn't Whitney Straight (sp??), the pre-war American racing driver, a BoB pilot?......

[MrBernoulli]

I would echo corsair's post earlier in this thread about the fairly recent 2-DVD release of the 1969 BoB film. The picture and sound have been restored beautifully and take me back to the day my father took me to one of the premieres! Fabulous!.

The producers have also restored the original score by Sir William Walton (ultimately rejected and only the section entitled 'Battle In The Air' made it into the film). You can play the movie with either this original score or the familiar score by Ron Goodwin. The original Walton score is a bit odd as there is far less music in it, so long pieces of the film just play with no background music. A bit strange in those areas of the film where you are used to hearing music.

The shortness of Walton's score was one of the reasons for its rejection. Laurence Olivier (playing Dowding in the film) demanded some of it in the final release, otherwise he would exit stage left, hence 'Battle in the Air'.

Finally, either HMV or Virgin (maybe both?) have been selling this double-disc DVD set in their summer sales for £7.99 - absolute bargain. You know you want a copy.

[Summer Twosay]

I don't know why we're all worried, going on past history, the BoB will be set in New York and the 109's (FW190's if they can't find any) will still have 10 minutes of fuel to run amok after crossing the Atlantic...... Maybe Sir Hugh Dowding was really from Texas :p
At least Johnny Depp can do a convincing accent.......... or maybe he really is an actor :rolleyes:

[Summer Twosay]

Now, if they can put Keira Knightly into her "webbing," I'd pay to see that!!:}



Ah well here comes another restless night.....:eek:

[GeeRam]

Of course, there's also the question of Tom Cruise (just turned 44) playing the role of a 29yr old. By the time filming gets going, he'll probably be pushing 46-47.


Agreed...........however, it must be said that Robert Shaw was 41 during filming of the Battle of Britain.:oh:

[SkyHawk-N]

Agreed...........however, it must be said that Robert Shaw was 41 during filming of the Battle of Britain.:oh:

Yeah, but Robert Shaw was cool :cool: 'Shorty' isn't! :ouch:

[Green Flash]

Keira Knightly .....




..... webbing .....








..... too late.:O

[snapper41]

Some fantastic flying sequences in the film, but none better (IMHO) than the opening scene when the Hurricanes get strafed on the ground by the '109s'; one of the Hispanos only just clears the boundary fence!:ok: :ok: I think the pilots were serving Spanish AF chaps?

[Green Flash]

Messrs Hannah, junior and senior, methinks!!

[Pontius Navigator]

I stand to be corrected but I think Hannah junior was just too junior then. Why, he was younger than Grubsy Smerdon on the OCU and Grubsy was not in secondary school when the film was made.

The 109s and Heinkels come to that were Spanish Air Force and one reason why Spike Milligan was in the Heinkel.

[snapper41]

I stand to be corrected but I think Hannah junior was just too junior then. Why, he was younger than Grubsy Smerdon on the OCU and Grubsy was not in secondary school when the film was made.
The 109s and Heinkels come to that were Spanish Air Force and one reason why Spike Milligan was in the Heinkel.

Yep - Mark Hanna was born in 1959. Not bad flying for a 9-year old!

[Pontius Navigator]

TY, I remember Grubsy, age 4, playing around the Ops Block while dad was sqn ldr ops. Makes him maybe a year younger than Mark.

[robin]

They were making B of B in 1968 at the same time as Mosquito Squadron; I remember driving past Bovingdon and seeing a line of Mosquitos, Spitfires, Hurricanes and Me (Hispano)109s parked on the apron south of the tower.
NB A few of the sequences for B of B were launched from Bovingdon, but as far as I know, no filming actually took place there. That Shackleton pilot who did the tailchase sequences filming the Mosquito was incredible ( believe he was a Farnborough TP).

As an ATC cadet at the time, the Spanish Airforce and camera plane was based out of Bovingdon at the time - we had a Wing Parade marching around them

But Mosquito Squadron was, I think, purely a studio film. There were no aerial shots made for it - it used 633 Squadron and B & B stock shots.

I do remember, though, a big explosion during my Maths GCE and a Mosquito being set on fire for a crash sequence - but that was on the back lot of Elstree's MGM studio

[BEagle]

Was going to ask who Keira Knightly is - until I remembered the magic of the Interweb(bing) thing......

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/KK.jpg


Aaaagh - I believe the expression is "I've just had a trouser moment"... That stuff they put in our tea at Cranwell is definitely beginning to wear off.

Quelle babe!

[Pontius Navigator]

IMHO, 633 Sqn was made at just the wrong time as far as realism was concerned. There were certainly live shots as there was one scene with a couple of RAF officers observing the bombing. They were real RAF officers with a real RAF Landrover roughly hidden to pretend it was not a Landrover.

Later films, like The Longest Day were able to draw on the war gamer market and get real period vehicles etc.

The other film make do used to be US Army half-tracks or Sherman tanks simply painted to look German.

[exvicar]

I can highly recommend 'Dark Blue World', a Czech film with subtitles. Has a little bit of romance & some very moving flying scenes. Now, as for Keira Knightley..............

[teeteringhead]

BEags
That stuff they put in our tea at Cranwell is definitely beginning to wear off..... sadly the stuff they put in my tea (not Cranners of course!) is just starting to work.....:{

[2Old2Care]

You shouldn't all be so rude about SASless.

After all, it is a well-known fact that the British Prime Minister during WWII was an American (all his best ideas came from the stories his Ma used to tell him about defeating the Evil Tyrant from Across The Sea)

[treadigraph]

Blimey, now I've forgotten what I was going to post... Thanks BEags!

Oh yes, 109s in the "France" attack sequence were flown by Confederate Air Force pilots who had brought the aircraft and jumped at the chance to take part...

Now, I'm just going to scroll up the screen again...

[pulse1]

But Mosquito Squadron was, I think, purely a studio film.

I think that at least one flying Mosquito was used for the film. It was owned by the City of Liverpool and I met the pilot just after the film was made. He was FO on a Viscount at the time and, during a stopover at Liverpool, he wandered into a hangar to look around and came across the Mosquito. Asked if he thought he could fly it he said that he could and ended up flying it for the film.

[SASless]

Now I have a question for you BoB film buffs....what was the lady helicopter pilot's name that hung from a trapeeze like device under an Alouette II and filmed many of the sequences? Hint: Jill....stunt double for Miss Galore of James Bond fame.

The name of her Helicopter Company?

A very lovely lady and much fun to share a drink with I might add!

[Deneb]

I have often wondered who was supposed to represent who in the film...?
According to Brian Kingcombe, in his book Willingness to Die, just before the film premiere each actor was linked to the pilot he was to portray, to boost interest in the film.
Michael Caine portrayed Brian Kingcome - but what about Deere, Malan, Doe, Stanford Tuck etc? Anyone know or fancy guessing?!
D

[SASless]

http://www.imdb.com/title/tt0064072/combined

This might help....

t's good that some "stars" do not have big roles. Michael Caine whilst being "hot box office" is shot down - many pilots who seemed invincible were lost. A number of the parts are based on real characters Robert Shaw's is based on Adolf 'Sailor' Malan - 74 Squadron Ace, Susannah York's Harvey is based on one Felicity Hanbury (who later became the Commandant of the WRAF). The scene where she has to deal with a bombed slit trench is based on what happened when Biggin Hill was attacked. Being burned and still being alive was one of the biggest risks - sitting next to a tank of 100 octane whislt being shot at was risky.

[GeeRam]

I think the pilots were serving Spanish AF chaps?

Correct, led by Spanish Civil War Pilot and ex-Luftwaffe pilot Commandante Pedro Santa Cruz

Prior to the Spanish AF loaning the CASA 2111 (He.111) and the HA.1112 (Me109) some members of the Confederate Air Force had just purchased 4 of the HA.1112's and a Spitfire and agreed to let them be used in the filming as long as they were flown by CAF pilots.
Which pilots were flying the '109s' during the filming at Duxford (where the French airfield scene was filmed) I'm not sure.
Wilson 'Connie' Edwards still owns these '109s' including the only 2 seat trainer version, which is probably the one flown by Adolf Galland during one of his advisory visits to the film set.

Edwards lays claim to having been 'shot down' the most times during filming.


But Mosquito Squadron was, I think, purely a studio film. There were no aerial shots made for it - it used 633 Squadron and B & B stock shots.

Not so, Mosquito Squadron used 4 airworthy Mossies for filming at Bovingdon, and the opening low level sequence was shot for the film using 3 x Mosquitoes was filmed from the rear of a Shacketon MR3.

I think that at least one flying Mosquito was used for the film. It was owned by the City of Liverpool and I met the pilot just after the film was made. He was FO on a Viscount at the time and, during a stopover at Liverpool, he wandered into a hangar to look around and came across the Mosquito. Asked if he thought he could fly it he said that he could and ended up flying it for the film.

Yes, one of the 4 used was at the time technically owned by Liverpool Corporation, as it had been bought for display at Speke Airport after it had been retired by CAACU in 1963.

Not sure about the last part........the a/c was specifically surveyed by Les Hillman in 1968 with a view to being used in the film, and it was overhauled by Doug Bianchi's Personal Plane Services and then test flown by the late Neil Williams. Neil then flew it down to Bovvie for the filming.

[thunderbird7]

Aireal filming was done from a converted B25 with a plexiglass nose, I believe. The blown up hangar was one of the old hangars at Duxford (aren't the remaining ones listed buildings? Ooops!).

"Stick to me like glue!"

[SASless]

Now don't leave out Lefty Gardner and his bunch.....loved watching him fly his P-38!

http://warbird.com/lefty.html

[Blacksheep]

Americans who crossed into Canada and made their way across to England and the RAF lost their US citizenship, and technically became fugitives from justice.
Ah! So there weren't any actual Americans in the BoB at all then... Just a couple of Canucks and a few stateless asylum seekers... :) Michael Caine portrayed Brian KingcomeMichael Caine was playing a Squadron Leader who didn't stand a chance once his black labrador wistfully watched him taking off. Whereas Brian Kingcombe was a Flight Lieutenant who served as a Flight Commander in 92 Sqn at the time and was never shot down and killed. Thankfully he was stilll alive and kicking last time I looked.

There's a lesson there for Fighter pilots - Never but never let your pet labrador wistfully watch you taking off.

[aviate1138]

As an ATC cadet at the time, the Spanish Airforce and camera plane was based out of Bovingdon at the time - we had a Wing Parade marching around them
But Mosquito Squadron was, I think, purely a studio film. There were no aerial shots made for it - it used 633 Squadron and B & B stock shots.
I do remember, though, a big explosion during my Maths GCE and a Mosquito being set on fire for a crash sequence - but that was on the back lot of Elstree's MGM studio
Mosquito Squadron used Real Mosquitos - 3/4 of them. 3 filming, one standby or u/s. Assembled by Doug Bianchi. Pilots were [in part] Neil Williams, Pat Fillingham, Sqd Ldr Taffy Rich. Farnborough Shackleton Mk 1 was camera plane and for a few days we were based either at West Raynham, Bovingdon or Blackbushe. Title sequence was shot over/off the North Norfolk coast. The Shackleton flew so low the prop wash was partly sea water from the wavetops. West Raynham was the base for that and the Bloodhounds tracked our every move!
Bovingdon was for airfield 'strafing' scenes with an Me 108 as the aggressor [I think].
We were just finishing shooting when the whole BoB Airforce turned up.
From the control tower the sight of Mosquito, He 111, Spitfire, Hurricane, Me 109[Merlin] and the B-25 and Shackleton all together was a sight to see.
Blackbushe was used because the nearby Minley Manor was used as the French Chateau action sequence.
Script was poor, no money for Visual Effects and a Producer that said he would use library footage if he could, didn't help!
The above is true because I was there. The sight of 3 Mossies doing a running break and stream landing at Bovingdon is etched in my memory! :)
Aviate 1138

[aviate1138]

Ah! So there weren't any actual Americans in the BoB at all then... Just a couple of Canucks and a few stateless asylum seekers... :)
After the Spanish Civil War a number of young Americans were not allowed back in their homeland and their passports were confiscated. Britain gave them passports and quite a few fought the 2nd World War from September 3rd 1939 onwards in the RAF or Army. The US Government regarded anyone not on the Fascist side in Spain as therefore being Communist! Hence the re-entry refusal. Robert Gordon Edwards was one such 'victim' and had a remarkable life during the Spanish Civil War, WW2 [Army Commando/Para]and as a Film Producer afterwards. Proud to have known and worked with him.
Aviate 1138

[aviate1138]

I think that at least one flying Mosquito was used for the film. It was owned by the City of Liverpool and I met the pilot just after the film was made. He was FO on a Viscount at the time and, during a stopover at Liverpool, he wandered into a hangar to look around and came across the Mosquito. Asked if he thought he could fly it he said that he could and ended up flying it for the film.
Neil Williams flew the Speke Mosquito [B.35 I think] down to Bovingdon. He felt something was not right with the elevators after having taken off, decided that as Doug Bianchi and the Mosquito Engineers were down at Bovingdon/Hatfield, he would carry on. After landing he told Doug about the problem. Doug opened the fuselage maintainence panel [starboard side ahead of the tailplane] grabbed a flashlight and peered inside. He emerged ashen faced.
The elevator cable run had been somehow splashed with battery acid and there were only a few strands intact!
http://www.mossie.org/images/W4050/ajd_d19_34.jpg
This hatch but on the B.35 not the prototype. The other variant used was the T.III from De Havillands - Pat Fillingham flew that one.
Aviate 1138

[PPRuNe Pop]

There were some marvellous flying sequences showing the Mosquitoes. All genuine stuff.

The owner of the 3 Mossie's was John Crewdson who had 'appeared' in a few films. He told me one day, on a visit to Biggin Hill with the three Mossies, that he wasn't in for the money, just the pleasure!

Sadly he was killed in Jet Ranger crash over The Wash.

[Pontius Navigator]

Michael Caine portrayed Brian Kingcome - but what about Deere, Malan, Doe, Stanford Tuck etc? Anyone know or fancy guessing?!
D

According to Wikepedia Michael Caine played Sqn Ldr Canfield:

The film has an all-star cast including
Laurence Olivier as Air Chief Marshal Sir Hugh Dowding, Air Officer Commanding RAF Fighter Command,
Trevor Howard as New Zealander Air Vice-Marshal Sir Keith Park, Air Officer Commanding No.11 Group RAF and
Christopher Plummer as Canadian fighter pilot, Squadron Leader Colin Harvey (since Plummer was Canadian, he asked for his character's RAF uniform to display the "Canada" shoulder flashes).
Other cast include Michael Caine as Squadron Leader Canfield,
Ralph Richardson in a cameo as the British Ambassador to Switzerland,
Robert Shaw as Squadron Leader Skipper,
Susannah York as Section Officer Maggie Harvey (Colin's wife),
Ian McShane as Sergeant Pilot Andy and
Kenneth More (who had made himself a household name with his portrayal of Douglas Bader in Reach for the Sky 12 years before) as Group Captain Barker – Station Commander at RAF Duxford.

[teeteringhead]

A mate of mine got involved in a strange film about mosquitos in the early 1970s. IIRC it was a Dutch (??) TV film which was filmed in and around Stanford PTA, with full MoD backing. The only "mosquito" was a ginormous r/c model, and air-to-air shots were filmed from matie's Puma!

It can't have been that accurate a film, cos they also used night internal shots of the Puma cockpit - as a mosquito cockpit!!

It gets better .... some of the "ground shots" were filmed in a nearby pub (which incidentally I think was also used as a location in "Dad's Army"), so they asked the Puma crew to bring No 2s (battledress in them days) to drink as "extras" in the background! (no pay but free beer!)

Somehow can't imagine MoD approving a task of that nature these days......

[Cumbrian Fell]

I understand that some of the airfield bombing shots (and the aforementioned Belfast-truss hanger) were taken at Hawkinge, that was by this time on a care and maintenance basis.

[aviate1138]

There were some marvellous flying sequences showing the Mosquitoes. All genuine stuff.
The owner of the 3 Mossie's was John Crewdson who had 'appeared' in a few films. He told me one day, on a visit to Biggin Hill with the three Mossies, that he wasn't in for the money, just the pleasure!
Sadly he was killed in Jet Ranger crash over The Wash.
What a nice man! Did a film with him down in Devon. He had to fly the aircraft at the camera, perched on the top of Berry Head. Wind about 30+ knots at the optimum crosswind angle! The Director screaming because the aircraft nose wasn't actually pointing at the camera!!! :)
Aviate 1138

[Boxer42]

The DVD is also available on Play.com for £6.99 post free. Ordered myself a copy yesterday.

[Pancake]

The DVD is also available on Play.com for £6.99 post free. Ordered myself a copy yesterday.I've just ordered a copy from Amazon for £4.97...
P. :O (Just starting to recover from the various York/Knightly plus webbing posts)

[pulse1]

Neil Williams flew the Speke Mosquito [B.35 I think] down to Bovingdon.

It is quite possible that the person I remember who "claimed" to have flown the Speke mosquito was an imposter. He appeared at our flying club with a seat type parachute which he said he was given after the film was finished. We had a single Tiger Moth at the time and he built up quite a few hours while trying to get an airline job back. He disappeared without paying his flying bill.:*

[Flash2001]

Interesting that an American could join just by claiming to be Canadian. If I remember correctly (And it's been 55 years) In S/L George Beurling's book Malta Spitfire he says that the RAF made him go back across the Atlantic to get his birth certficate even though he had his Canadian pilot's licence with him.

After an excellent landing you can use the airplane again!

[chevvron]

Mosquito Squadron was definitely not a studio made film; I remember seeing the Mossies flying over my home in '68, and the 'arches' used for the Highball bomb practice were on the airfield at Bovingdon. The French Chateau which was the actual target was I believe, Minley Manor, just a stones throw from Farnborough!

[Lon More]

Teeteringhead It was possibly "Soldaat van Oranje" about the Dutch in exile in UK during WWII

[chevvron]

One of the Mossies from 633 Sqdn languished at Bovingdon until about 1966 or '67. 613 GS from Halton had a detached flight there during 1967, and we shared the same hangar as this Mossie, so we all became well versed at climbing into it (unofficially that is!)
When the time came to fly the Mossie away, they thought there was something not quite right with the elevator balance, the controls feeling very heavy. Someone succeded in making a hole in the elevator skin, and several pints of (presumably) rainwater poured out!

[thunderbird7]

633 Sqn sequences shot in the Lairig Ghru I think? ( Can't believe how sad I am.... )

"What about the officers, Sir?"

"Give them a bloody shovel!"

[2Old2Care]

My two favourite "bloopers" are:

- The implication that the Poles were the first operational Allied squadron (in fact, the Czechs were).

- The listing of Allied pilots in the credits includes 1 Israeli

Both of which are down to the producer, who flew (as a Pole) in the Battle.

Which may explain why it is such a superbly constructed film.

[Wig Wag]

superbly constructed film

Repeat Please!

[GeeRam]

The owner of the 3 Mossie's was John Crewdson who had 'appeared' in a few films. He told me one day, on a visit to Biggin Hill with the three Mossies, that he wasn't in for the money, just the pleasure!


John Crewsdon certainley didn't own 3 of the Mosquitoes used in Mosquito Squadron.:=
The 4 used for the flying sequences were:-
T.3 RR299 owned at the time by BAC/BAe and flown by Pat Fillingham
B.35 TA634 owned at the time by the Corporation of Liverpool
B.35 RS709 owned at the time by Peter Thomas (Skyframe Collection)
B.35 RS712 owned at the time by Grp.Capt. Hamish Mahaddie

Famous shot of the late John Crewsdon piloting one of the B-17's at not-a-lot-above the Bovingdon aprons during filming of the The War Lover in 1962.:eek:
http://snap28.photobox.co.uk/24582526a1c739c5795793bde6aaf18b529af2136fc8fd8967a96de8.jpg


Sadly he was killed in Jet Ranger crash over The Wash.
I think you'll find it was an Alouette, in fact the same one that was used as a helo camera platform in the filming of the Battle of Britain IIRC.

[BEagle]

"Repeat Please!"

OK -

http://i14.photobucket.com/albums/a341/nw969/KK3.jpg

:ok:

[ExRAFRadar]

"It's unforgivable, I lost my temper "

To his wife after he just bawled out the pompous Nazi....

[Samuel]

Alright, alright, I want the DVD, so could someone tell me. specifically, which is the best one to buy and from where? The double DVD seems the one to go for. The only copy of the film I have is recorded on video from TV!

I was in London in May, and particularly went down to see the Memorial to The Few, and I was actually a bit disappointed with some aspects. Some of the pilots look a bit manic!

It was nice to see New Zealand recorded as providing the greatest number of participants after the UK itself, and Poland. Two of the top ten aces were also Kiwis of course! Just in case you forget!

[Samuel]

Who's the babe Beagle? Nice eyes!

[teeteringhead]

Thanks Lon More, I can do some more searching on that!

[spekesoftly]

T.3 RR299 owned at the time by BAC/BAe and flown by Pat Fillingham
Just to be absolutely correct, at the time of the making of 'Mosquito Squadron', RR299 was owned by HSA.

[GeeRam]

Just to be absolutely correct, at the time of the making of 'Mosquito Squadron', RR299 was owned by HSA.

True.........being aquired from storage at Shawbury after being retired from CAACU in '63.

And Pat Fillingham of course had been a Mosquito production test pilot at Hatfield during WW2.

[spekesoftly]

True.........being aquired from storage at Shawbury after being retired from CAACU in '63.
For the nominal sum of £100. On the 12th July 1963, RR299 (now on the civil register as G-ASKH) was flown by Pat Fillingham to Hawarden, where it would reside for the next 33 years.

[PLovett]

There is a scene in the film showing the plotting room where a briefing is taking place. If you look carefully you will see one of the men in the scene has a disfigured face. He had been badly burnt when shot down in the Battle of Britain and was one of MacIndoe's (sp?) guinea pigs.

Just one of the fascinating bits of trivia revealed in the book on the making of the film.

[exvicar]

Beagle

Where did you get that photo of my girlfriend?!

[jpa-in]

The Battle of Britain

www.play.com (http://www.play.com) £6.99 delivered

www.dvd.co.uk (http://www.dvd.co.uk) £6.95 delivered

Both are 2 disc editions

[possel]

For the nominal sum of £100. On the 12th July 1963, RR299 (now on the civil register as G-ASKH) was flown by Pat Fillingham to Hawarden, where it would reside for the next 33 years.

It was based at Hatfield when I worked there in 1973-75 (and still flown by Pat Fillingham, I think)

[spekesoftly]

It was based at Hatfield when I worked there in 1973-75 (and still flown by Pat Fillingham, I think)
During its long display flying career, RR299 was flown by a number of Hawker Siddeley (and subsequently BAe) test pilots. Those based at Hawarden tended to concentrate on shows in North, and the Hatfield TPs on those in the South. In addition to Pat Fillingham, Ron Clear flew many displays in the 70s and 80s. So it was not unusual for the Mossie to spend periods of time at 'Hatters', but I think it's fair to say that Hawarden was always its main base. Even in the 90s, when flown by three or more of the Woodford TPs.

[dakkg651]

Old man in London Shelter

"They got the Rose and Crown."

"He'll have to drink in the Red Lion now!"

[BattlerBritain]

"If they'll have 'im"

[chevvron]

Re the photo of the B17 posted by GeeRam; it was taken from the control tower and the taxiway to the right passed behind the tower; being a bit narrow (there was a T2 the other side of the taxiway) 4 engined aircraft were prohibited from taxying through there! I've seen a photo taken a few seconds later where the obstructions are visible.

[robin]

There were some marvellous flying sequences showing the Mosquitoes. All genuine stuff.
The owner of the 3 Mossie's was John Crewdson who had 'appeared' in a few films. He told me one day, on a visit to Biggin Hill with the three Mossies, that he wasn't in for the money, just the pleasure!
Sadly he was killed in Jet Ranger crash over The Wash.

I stand corrected, but I maintain that the majority of Mosquito Squadron aerial footage was lifted from 633 Squadron and BofB

[Washington_Irving]

Who's the babe Beagle? Nice eyes!
Where have you been for the past 3 years?
Oh, New Zealand... never mind.:O

[aviate1138]

I stand corrected, but I maintain that the majority of Mosquito Squadron aerial footage was lifted from 633 Squadron and BofB
Then you simply do not understand that Mosquito Squadron, which was premiered before the Battle of Britain, contained not one single frame, let alone aerial footage of BofB film and little of 633 Squadron. The Battle of Britain was a major movie of its time, Mosquito Squadron was a cheap Mirisch Pictures output that cost very little, the Battle of Britain film cost many, many millions.
The BofB Aerial Footage Cameraman was Skeets Kelly and I know he would be turning in his grave [while smiling his wry smile] if his and Johnny Jordan's efforts in capturing the magnificent aerial sequences had been screened in Mosquito Squadron prior to the premiere the BofB. Obviously the Mosquito Squadron bombing footage was model photography.
Aviate 1138

[chiglet]

If you can get the book DO!! There are a lot of facinating insights.... Galland taking umbrage at Milchs' Nazi salute...then watching the sequence then [grdgingly] accepting it:ok:
Hamish Mahaddie,,,"Accquiring"[sp] various a/c, the absolute cr@p wx in Spain for some of the flying. I bought mine in the early 70s, it's tatty, but not for sale.
I remember seeing some of the Spits at the Leconfield Air Display.....in 1966 much more interesting than a football match :D
Also as an ATC Cadet, doing circuits and bumps in a Shackelton at Dalcross in 1962 and seeing three Mossies there...filming 633 Sqn. Mistake in that, B25 in post War RCAF markings.
watp,iktch

[GeeRam]

During its long display flying career, RR299 was flown by a number of Hawker Siddeley (and subsequently BAe) test pilots. Those based at Hawarden tended to concentrate on shows in North, and the Hatfield TPs on those in the South. In addition to Pat Fillingham, Ron Clear flew many displays in the 70s and 80s. So it was not unusual for the Mossie to spend periods of time at 'Hatters', but I think it's fair to say that Hawarden was always its main base. Even in the 90s, when flown by three or more of the Woodford TPs.

I do remember ex-Lightning pilot Tony Craig spent quite a while displaying RR299.

[Brewster Buffalo]

T.3 RR299 owned at the time by BAC/BAe and flown by Pat Fillingham
B.35 TA634 owned at the time by the Corporation of Liverpool
B.35 RS709 owned at the time by Peter Thomas (Skyframe Collection)
B.35 RS712 owned at the time by Grp.Capt. Hamish Mahaddie

IIRC RR299 was used on the display circuit but crashed.
Where are the others today?

[ZH875]

T.3 RR299 owned at the time by BAC/BAe and flown by Pat Fillingham
B.35 TA634 owned at the time by the Corporation of Liverpool
B.35 RS709 owned at the time by Peter Thomas (Skyframe Collection)
B.35 RS712 owned at the time by Grp.Capt. Hamish Mahaddie

IIRC RR299 was used on the display circuit but crashed.
Where are the others today?

RS712 Displayed EAA Museum, Oshkosh, WI
RS709 United States Air Force Museum, Wright-Patterson Ohio.
TA634 De-Havilland Museum

[stuk]

Partly off thread but on the subject of remakes of films by the Americansd heree is one I'm surprised hasn't been here before...(Unless it has of course)

A major new Hollywood film...

DAM BUSTERS II or WHO YOU GONNA BOMB?

Hollywood's authentic story of the Six-Seventeenth Eagle Bomb Squadron Of the Royal British Air Corps.

THE INTRO....
It is 1941. Hitler has invaded Europe and England alone fights back Aided by a handful of international volunteers, including GI Gibson (Tom Cruise)an American pilot who had already had a key role in winning the Battle Of Britain.
Intelligence has identified that the destruction of a giant dam in central Germany is the key to Allied victory.

THE FIRST RAID....
A raid on the dam by the British Lan-Casters of the 6-17th is ordered, to be led by its war-weary cockney CO (Michael Caine). The crews are filmed boarding the Confederate Air Force's Liberator.
A background of sun-drenched Texan prairie substitutes for Scamppington

Air Force Base and the East Anglian Fens in January.
Colour-enhanced black and white library shots are then used for the Raid - DC-6 engine start, taxiing Halifaxes, Spitfire mass take-off, formation of B24s, Lan-caster at night, bombs dropping from a Mitchell, a B-17 and Focke-Wulf Condor being shot down, the FAA's Boeing 707 crashing in flames.
As with all US aviation films since the invention of "talkies", the aircraft soundtrack consists only of the roar of Pratt & Whitney radial engines, specially recorded during a Harvard mass flypast at the annual Oshkosh air show.
But the raid is a failure, and only GI and his crew survive to try again. Danny De Vito plays the part of the bomb aimer.

THE WEAPON....

After the disastrous first dam raid, it is obvious a new type of weapon Is needed. By chance Barn S. Wallace (Morgan Freeman), the leading US scientist And aviation expert, is in London explaining his invention of the jet engine to an unknown British engineer, Frank V. Tel.
Thinking back to his childhood, Barn remembers skimming rocks across a Lake in native New Hampshire, and quickly comes up with a design for a Bouncing bomb - but it is too large for any British aircraft to carry.

THE AIRCRAFT....

Fortunately, Wallace has brought with him to England the only example of his latest bomber design, the B-29. Cut to the CAF's B-29, painted gloss caramel and vivid green with French roundels, being pulled from its Hangar at Midland, TX, so that GI and his crew can test fly the new bouncing munition over the neighbouring Scotland, and prepare for the raid.

THE RAID....

Shots of Cruise and gang boarding the B-29, plus take-off shots over The American Midwest. Then computer-generated images for outbound flight, the final - and successful - bombing run using the last remaining weapon on board, and the dogfights on the return leg.

Throughout, the standard CGI conventions are used. All WW2 single-seat fighters fly at a minimum Mach 0.9 in +7g manoeuvres, while any multi-engine aeroplane drones along straight and level at 130 kt.

THE COMMAND CENTER....

In a map-encrusted bunker, Barn waits tensely for the results of the raid.
Although the news is of success, he starts to become saddened by the loss of aircrew involved. But, just at that moment, a well-spoken Home Counties WAAF officer (Catherine Zeta Jones) in a starched Virginia McKenna military blouse appears, bearing a tray of Starbucks mugs.
She utters that immortal line - "Cocoa Latte, Sir?" - and all is well.
Information comes in that the flooding from the broken dam has flooded Hitler's bunker (clip fromChaplin as the Great Dictator), thwarting the launch of a new V3 rocket aimed at the Summit Conference being held in buckingham Palace, London, England.
The water also slows the Russian advance, allowing Patton (Harrison
Ford) to capture Berlin and Eastern Germany for the Allies.

THE LANDFALL....

Meanwhile, with three engines blazing and feathered, Gibson and the surviving crew nurse the crippled B-29 back across the Channel.
They just manage to climb over the White Cliffs of Dover to see in the Near distance the welcoming runway lights of their Lincolnshire airfield.
Having studied brain surgery before joining up, the B-29's chirpy Australian assistant cook (Kylie Minogue) saves the lives of injured crew members as the bomber belly-lands onto its home base. It slides to a halt a few Feet from the control tower, where Winston Churchill (Dan Ackroyd) watches proudly.
Also in the scene, in a technology enhancement, is Ronnie Reagan on his horse Trigger.

THE FINALE....

GI stands framed by the blazing wreckage of a redundant Fokker Friendship airliner bought especially for this scene.
Since a wholesome happy ending is mandatory in today's commercial cinema, in a final shot he is joined by "Native-African-American", his loyal dog. Despite the pair of Artificial legs and prosthetic tail fitted after being injured in three major road accidents on the Great North Road during his master's absence, the Labrador bounds joyfully into the sunset with some dame called Vera Lynn singing about the White Cliffs.

[johnfairr]

Can't type for laughing, great p**t, Stuk

jf

[You want it when?]

I do believe I saw that movie Stuk. Wasn't James Stewart in it? :)

[Spurlash2]

Stuk
Are you absolutely sure about the : "Cocoa Latte, Sir?" line, I thought it was "Come up and see me some time." Can't be sure, mists of time and all...
Baahhhh :eek:

[Mrmungus]

Sounds like a perfect Gate Guard film when is it out on DVD.:O

[Footless Halls]

There is of course one film which gives a sober and realistic reappraisal of the US contribution to the UK's war effort during the second world war. I refer of course to "Churchill: The Hollywood Years" in which Christian Slater plays the hero in a balanced way which reflects his transatlantic heritage. Anyone seen it?

Apparently it was never released in the US...

[brickhistory]

Minutes from a recent meeting of the British Film Development Company (BFD Co.), LTD. Abbreviations are: EP = Executive Producer (the money guy), D = Director, P = Producer (problem solving guy), F = Flunkie (self-explanatory):
D: "So, we've cast the female lead, Kiera is available and definitely interested in the Susanna York role. Clive might be on-board for Shaw's squadron leader chap.....what about the locations?"
P: "Well, we've thought about using some of the original Battle locations, like Biggin Hill or Hawkinge (sp?) or....."
F: "I'm afraid it's a no-go on those. Seems there's not a single Battle of Britain airfield still usable...."
D: "Damn!"
EP: "Oh well, no matter, we can set it in Scotland or some such, won't make much difference....."
D: "Ok, what about getting the aircraft? How did the BBMF take our proposal?"
P: "Well, bit of a problem there as well. Seems Public Affairs doesn't want the RAF to seem warlike, so they are not going to let us dub in the Spitfire and Hurricane going "takatakatakataka." Seems there some sort of anti-fighter gun push on over there......"
Worried looking F hands EP a scribbled note.
EP: "Damn! Damn! Damn!"
D, P look up startled: "What's wrong?"
EP: "Seems after all my investment we are still going to run out of funds by the end of the month, so it will all be for nought!"
After a few minutes, P comes up with: "Well, how about we ask Pprune to harness its power and get everyone who reads it to cough up a fiver? We could raise lots that way?!"
EP, D, and even F, in unison: "It's over, let it go......"
EP: "Well, what about my investment? Did we at least get the publicity stills of Kiera in her webbing we could make into a poster?"


Edited for atrocious spelling, the ones I caught anyway!

[ShyTorque]

Tim Mills, who sometimes posts here, actually flew one of the Spitfires for the original "BoB" film.

[Phil_R]

Hi,

This would be why I am hanging around an aircrew forum asking annoying questions at the script stage!

Regards,

Phil "Didn't Know what Tonka Meant Until Now" Rhodes

[Tim Mills]

Thanks Shy Torque. And a Hurricane, and as a special treat 35 minutes in a 109 (though I suppose I should own up, and say Bouchon).

Been following this thread with interest, and eagerly awaiting the call from Hollywood. But since I now find it hard to get in and out of my car with any degree of elegance, I think a Spit would be beyond me, computer generated or not! And does't Tom Cruise fly warbirds, so he can do the whole thing himself, with maybe occasional back up from that well known Qantas captain John Travolta.

I must say the thought of Kiera has certain attractions, though I have to admit sheepishly that I never saw Susannah, in or out of her webbing, if you see what I mean. And I think that stuff they put in the tea at Cranners which Beags was on about must be working at last. But, on second thoughts, it must be anno domini, the spirit is still willing, just everything else is weak!

Do like the variations on the theme suggested by those inventive ppruners, more please.

I remember Skeets Kelly, John Jordan and John Crewdsen, who flew the chopper for many of the close shots. All gone, sadly, doing what they did best.
Long time ago, great experience.

[Tim Mills]

Was it something I said? It's all gone quiet!

[angels]

I too, have been folowing this thread with great interest.

I'm sure it wasn't you Tim, it'll start up again soon!

[November4]

Find DVD (http://www.find-dvd.co.uk/) for the best prices of DVDs
Battle of Britain 2 Disc film ranges from £5.79 (SelectCheaper (http://www.find-dvd.co.uk/rt.asp?r=026&url=http%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Eselectcheaper%2Ecom%2Fshopping%2Fshop aff%2Easp%3Faffid%3D14%26directurl%3Dhttp%3A%2F%2Fwww%2Esele ctcheaper%2Ecom%2Fsearch%2Fbuy%2Dcheap%2DBATTLE%5FOF%5FBRITA IN%5FSPECIAL%5FED%5F10001024%5FDVD%2Ehtm%3F)) to £21.63

[WhiteOvies]

For Keira out of her webbing (see BEagles post for more info) see brit teen horror flick 'The Hole'. Blink and you'll miss it though. :ok:

There are plenty of Brit Hollywood stars about (Clive Owen, Jude Law etc) who might be up for it. IMHO even a good remake wouldn't be up to the original and I would hate a rewrite of history version in the same model as that insulting :mad: submarine/enigma film.

[chiglet]

For those persons interested...There is a Hurricane AND a Bouchon at Breighton....and for a bonus, a P51D. Costs £4 to get in and wander at your hearts content
watp,iktch

[BattlerBritain]

Have a look at http://www.realaero.com/ for details?

[GlosMikeP]

For anyone interested Leonard Mosley wrote a book 'The battle of Britain, the making of the film', published in 1969: SBN 297 17909 8. Long out of print of course but you might be lucky to be able to read it c/o the British Library or if really lucky, get a copy through a specialist book seller, which is where I got mine about 3 years ago.

It was an ex-Pathfinder Gp Capt Hamish Mahaddie who played one of the most significant parts in getting the film made: he spent 3 years trawling the world for the aeroplanes and then striking the deals to get them. The Spanish Air Force were still using their He111s and had only recently stopped flying their Me109s, which had been retrofitted with Merlins! The Spanish government offered their He111s on loan.

Many of the 'real' aircraft were OK to taxi but not airworthy; others were pure wood and fibreglass mock-ups.

I remember the film being made as a boy - seeing the B25 Mitchell camera aircraft often doing fly-bys over Swanton Morley near Norwich on its way somewhewre more interseting - and saw it for the first time at RAF Coltishall at the air display there in 1969.

It was a joy to read Stuffy's famous letter when I first visited the library in College Hall at Cranwell. Every line. It was still on display there about 3 years ago.

And as my children often quote from the film, our favourite line: "Don't you shout at me Mr Warwick!". Do they mean me?

[GeeRam]

Actually Kiera in 'period' webbing might be a possibility in the near future (with any luck:E ) as I've just seen that next week they are filming on Redcar beach with a 1000 extras recreating the Dunkirk evacuation for a new film called Atonement......starring Kiera Knightly.

[delta96]

Hamish Mahaddie was patron of the ATC squadron to which I belonged, and he organised it so that we were billeted at RAF Henlow where they were building the Spits & Hurricanes to be used in "BoB" ground shots. They let us loose with screwdrivers and ally panels for a very nice PR blue spitfire which by the end of the week actually resembled an aeroplane. While we were there they had a "Photo Opportunity" with the assembled A/C. I remember Bob Stanford-Tuck in a shiny suit and Hush-Puppies, made him look a bit of a spiv, I thought at the time. To me, a WW2 hero should have looked like he knew how to remove nylons, not sell them.
Hmm, shot of Jude Law (with pencil moustache) unclipping Kiera's tackle...

[Brewster Buffalo]

Insert from the DVD (£7.99 at Virgin) says that the 100+ aircraft bought for the film made the producer the 35th ranking air power..

also that more ammunition was expended making the film than in the actual battle - sounds a bit dubious to me..

Can't see a remake being better than the original...and all the planes would be CGI..:*

[Blacksheep]

...next week they are filming on Redcar beach.....recreating the Dunkirk evacuationOh Goody! Are they going to demolish Redcar during the bombing scenes?

I don't recall any dock at Redcar. So much of the Dunkirk action took place at the dockside where the large ships picked up the greater number of evacuees. Are we in for another rewrite of history where no destroyers or steamers were involved?

What I particularly liked about the BoB film is the accuracy with which it was portrayed. I doubt if that could be repeated. Our culture has changed so much in the intervening years that the period language and mannersims wouldn't make much sense to anyone under forty-something. Spitfire and Hurricane pilots were quite a languid lot outside the pub - not gung -ho top-gun types at all.

"OK Chaps, a quick tonky-tonk first burst and away" - the real Sailor Malan leading 92 Sqn into action

Although from reading their memoirs, 24 hours from bottle to throttle didn't mean much to them...

[angels]

I remember talking to an old boy at the Bull Inn in Brasted, Kent (just down the hill from Biggin Hill) who recalled talking to the pilots during the BoB.

He couldn't believe the amount of piss they stuck down their necks.

In the old days (IE I've seen the thing) there used to be a glass-framed blackboard with the signatures of some the pilots.

The place has probably been 'Berni Inned' now, but the blackboard may still be there. The pub is on the A25 and there used to be a sign saying, 'Pull in at the Bull Inn' which always tickled me, but it, too, has no doubt gone. :sad:

[treadigraph]

Angels, the autographed blackboard was in the White Hart, just along from the Bull (which is an excellent little pub!) in Brasted. The White Hart, as you say, is a plastic "Pubco" place now, but a replica of the blackboard is still there. The real thing is in a museum - it should be at Hendon, but I don't think it is.

[airborne_artist]

He couldn't believe the amount of piss they stuck down their necks.

I believe that wartime beer was a pretty weak brew, so it was possible to sink plenty, but then again, if I'd been flying in the BoB, I'd have needed to sink a few once out of the office.

[Green Meat]

Keira is a little waif like for the shapely Ms York, how about the rather delightful Kate Winslet?

[brickhistory]

Keira is a little waif like for the shapely Ms York, how about the rather delightful Kate Winslet?

Well, in the interests of accuracy and being true to the spirit of the original film......................great idea! :ok:

[Washington_Irving]

Well, in the interests of accuracy and being true to the spirit of the original film......................great idea! :ok:

Her arse is certainly big enough to play a WAAF these days.

[Green Meat]

You leave her behind alone, its my job to consider Miss Winslet's derriere :E

[Wig Wag]

It is interesting that this thread keeps going. I was at Primary School the year the film came out and can remember anticipating the film with excitement. An ME 110 flew over the house inbound to a local RAF base. We talked about that for days We used to play spitfires and Hurricanes in the playground and I still have the chewing gum cards of film scenes we collected. My collection was biggest because I hate chewing gum. In the mid 1960's, as a child, you could easily find people who recollected the battle. I collected a piece of Wellington Bomber from a spinney. Some locals recall a pilot who parachuted into a field. They found his body some months later when the horses refused to go into the field . . .

The film was part of my formative experience and directly influenced me towards learning to fly and joining the RAF etc. I take the point someone made about the film having less appeal to the under forties. My wife is in her mid thirties and the history of World War Two wasn't taught at Primary School. To her the Battle of Britain features with Trafalgar and Agincourt - dusty history. That decides it, I'll buy her the DVD for Christmas.

I hope to God they don't try a remake. Can you imagine how political correctness might distort it? There doubtless would be a 'gay' issue. Perhaps a Moslem Squadron could be featured. Computer graphics will never replace actual aeroplanes. Also, the lack of character actors would be an issue. The people making the film were of the time and knew how people spoke.

One thing that intrigues me is off duty pilots socialising. A very distant relative flew in the Battle. He recalled that if they were flying early necessaily they went to bed early and didn't drink. Letting off steam on days off was another matter. Locally in East Anglia the police were told to leave them along whilst they left of steam with the type of antics that, today, would get them an ASBO.

The film was a classic not least because it was so respectful to history. Nurture it please but don't mess up our memories with a modern remake.

[Ignition Override]

BEagle: Beautiful shot of your aircraft :D . Is she easy to hand-fly? Multiple entries in logbook for "center engine needs oil [check]"?

What is also fun is to have the excellent Battle o. B. DVD and and at the same time, fly the Spitfire or Hurricane against He-111, Bf-110 or Ju-88 etc on the (Ubisoft) "Sturmovik Forgotten Battles AEP" :cool: . If you are good, against the Me-109 or FW-190: the artificial intelligence (AI) for the enemy aircraft, is not too bad.

Among the many single-engine planes, you can also fly the twin-engine Heinkel and the BF-110, along with the P-38 and the German jets + the Komet rocket plane! Assuming you have a very good video driver and hard-drive space/good RAM etc, costs about $30 US.
When you continue well past Initial Operating Experience (now called simply OE), it is not very welcome by a girlfriend or wife :( . :O The time of night can be a serious factor. An unwelcome "line check" at 0230 can threaten to 'revoke your license'.

The ease and simplicity of "quick combat", not only the graphics, operating flight instruments and unique characteristics of each type, is top-notch.:) On the keyboard, as a minimum, only the "escape" button is required. You can easily record your mission. Keeping the mouse by the other hand allows you to look back or behind to plan where next tracers might come from.
After limited tng, the enemy will always have to "aufpassen" for you!

As a transport pilot, this WW2 "flying" is a refreshing change from an oversold plane which lately struggles in the southern heat to get above FL 290-at least before kids and others went back to school and lightened the loads on many. Recently saw the specials on the young guys who competed to fly the 2-seat Spitfire under tutelage of the lady Instructor (Carolyn Grace, who was widowed?), and the youngsters in the Lancaster-very good shows on the US History International Channel (Hint).

[aviate1138]

said in part....Am ME 110 flew over the house inbound to a local RAF base.
I hope to God they don't try a remake. Computer graphics will never replace actual aeroplanes.
Aviate 1138 muses....
Did you mean a Merlin engined He111? Don't think there were any Me110's on the movie.
Computer graphics? Spot the deliberate mistake in the Spit pic :)
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k35/beejaviate/Spit-2.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k35/beejaviate/junkers.jpg
http://i84.photobucket.com/albums/k35/beejaviate/Me109.jpg
CGI artist is Dan Meyer.

Aviate1138

[Wig Wag]

"No, them's not Messerschmitts, them's Oinkels"

You are probably right, aviate1138. However, a fleeting view thirty years ago might well be wrong !

Sorry, stumped by the graphics. Is one of the prop blades on the Spitifire for a counter rotational engine???

Put me out of my misery!:confused:

[johnfairr]

All the BoB Spits were Mks 1, & the odd cannon-armed II, thus they were all three-bladed props. The piccie could be a Mk IX, but it doesn't look like its got a long enough nose for the new Merlin they put in (the 45 or the 60??)

[kevmusic]

Angels, the autographed blackboard was in the White Hart, just along from the Bull (which is an excellent little pub!) in Brasted. The White Hart, as you say, is a plastic "Pubco" place now, but a replica of the blackboard is still there. The real thing is in a museum - it should be at Hendon, but I don't think it is.
The original blackboard is in the Shoreham Aircraft Museum, Kent.
http://www.shoreham-aircraft-museum.co.uk/

The blackboard is visible in the bottom photo. I sometimes pop into the White Hart for a pint 'in homage' after the Biggin Air Fairs. A dreadful travesty of the cosy watering hole of yore it nevertheless is full of photographic and written memorabilia.

Check out also the Jackdaw near Hawkinge. It's the one they used in the film, unchanged, and also displays photographic memorabilia.
http://digiserve.com/peter/jackdaw.htm

Kev.

[aviate1138]

All the BoB Spits were Mks 1, & the odd cannon-armed II, thus they were all three-bladed props. The piccie could be a Mk IX, but it doesn't look like its got a long enough nose for the new Merlin they put in (the 45 or the 60??)
It's a MkV variant with MK IX 4 Blade prop. Done to prove it was a Digital image.
Aviate 1138

[Green Flash]

The '88 looks the biz!

About the same time as the film came out a book about the period was re-issued. It was by Elleston Trevor and was called Squadron Airbourne. It was one of the first paperback novels I read from cover to cover and boy, was it good! You could smell, see and hear everything, the writing is spot on. It follows a squadron of Spits, both air and ground crews, through their days of trial, through losses, loves, funny's and drudgery. It is a cracking read and would reccomend it highly. However, it's well out of print and I managed to loose my paperback version a long time ago.:{ But whilst ferkling around a secondhand bookshop recently I chanced upon a hardback first edition!:)

[Gonzo]

"Silence, in Polish!"

Just watching the DVD now.

Just got to the bit where the Poles have just been declared operational. In hte next scene, Dowding says to Park to make the following operational...."The second Polish squadron, the Czechs and the Canadians."

What language were the Canadians having problems with?????

[Pontius Navigator]

What language were the Canadians having problems with????? [/FONT]

I think the context was that the Canadians were colonials who did not accept the British discipline.

Bearing in mind that Park was a Kiwi and Trevor Howard acted as the quintessentially British air officer in his attitude to protocol.

In otherwords what the Canadians did not understand English either.

[BEagle]

"What language were the Canadians having problems with?????"

Perhaps it was just that no-one understood that god-awful noise sometimes termed 'French Canadian'? Eh?

[Ignition Override]

Weren't many ME-109 student pilots seriously injured or killed trying to takeoff and land, due to the narrow gear track?

How about the Spitfire's lack of fuel injection, in contrast to the ME-109's BMW engine-did this cost many RAF pilots their lives, or a victory in a dogfight?
The ME-109 pilot, if caught out in front, could push over with negative g's as the Spitfire was forced to roll then pull.:(

How effective were the defensive guns in the He-111, Ju-88, Bf-110/210 Zerstorer, Do-17/217 etc?
They appear to have had single-barrel guns, as with some British and American bombers. If so, were the calibers also about as small as the .303? :ouch:

[Maple 01]

Please don't ask me to explain, but I thought a half flick solved the problem with the carburettor float in the Merlin that caused the engine to cut out under negative G

[dakkg651]

The problem with the early merlins cutting under negative G was partially solved by the introduction of a restrictor in the entry to the carburettor float chamber. This was invented by a female scientist at Martlesham and was known from then on as 'Miss Schillings orifice'.
The final solution to the problem came with the downdraft carb first fitted to the Merlin 61 series engines.

Never been able to find a photo of Miss Schilling unfortunately.

[allan907]

Weren't many ME-109 student pilots seriously injured or killed trying to takeoff and land, due to the narrow gear track?


And I wuz there when Bf109G "Black 6" took to the air at RAF Benson for the first time after its mega restoration.

The pilot (some Air Marshal or other) said it was an irregularity in the grass runway. Everyone else said it was pilot handling (be fair it would have been a bloody hard job). Anyway the end result was a number of score marks in the grass, a bent prop tip, and a very nervous first circuit and land!

http://i25.photobucket.com/albums/c92/allan907/IMG.jpg

The old guy is the Australian engineering officer who helped to capture the thing in the North African desert.

[BEagle]

A well-known TP once explained to me the likely cause of the smoke in the cockpit which caused the pilot to attempt his high speed landing at Duxford......

The AAIB report is here: http://www.aaib.gov.uk/cms_resources/dft_avsafety_pdf_501760.pdf

The only good point to come out of the whole thing was that the senior Air officer concerned subsequently had a much greater appreciation of 'human error' - as he once candidly admitted to a packed meeting at Waddington.

Black Six is now restored and resting on static display at Hendon.

[brickhistory]

Keira is a little waif like for the shapely Ms York, how about the rather delightful Kate Winslet?


Forgot to ask, would there be 'webbing' involved?

[GeeRam]

How about the Spitfire's lack of fuel injection, in contrast to the ME-109's BMW engine-did this cost many RAF pilots their lives, or a victory in a dogfight?

Err.....I think you mean Me109's Damiler-Benz engine.......;)
And I wuz there when Bf109G "Black 6" took to the air at RAF Benson for the first time after its mega restoration.
The pilot (some Air Marshal or other) said it was an irregularity in the grass runway.
The pilot of Black 6's first flight was the late Reg Hallam.

[allan907]

Don't think so. It was the aforementioned senior officer that also flew its last flight IIRC.

[Green Flash]

Quote:
Originally Posted by Green Meat
Keira is a little waif like for the shapely Ms York, how about the rather delightful Kate Winslet?



Forgot to ask, would there be 'webbing' involved?

Brick
Good grief, I bl00dy well hope so! And high heels.:\

[kevmusic]

It's my birthday tomorrow :hmm: ...and, as a special treat, I'm going to watch the video! :D The family are even pretending they want to watch it too!!! My daughter speaks fluent German so she'll be able to verify the subtitles. I like the German interludes - the atmosphere is convincingly different from the RAF side.

Great film. It deserves a long, vibrant thread like this; even after 38 years!

Kev

[Green Flash]

Or maybe we should stop beating about the bush (so to speak) and go straight (ooer) for Section Officer K West .....:\ :\ :\

[treadigraph]

My daughter speaks fluent German so she'll be able to verify the subtitles.

I've taped BoB off t' telly a couple of times over the years and have noticed that the subtitle translations vary a bit (although the essence is pretty much the same) I'd always assumed that they were "hard wired" into the film during production. Perhaps they improved the translations after the film was released.

Great DVD, particularly with the additional material.

"For the benefit of the uneducated I shall translate..."

[chiglet]

Aviate1138
Late reply [sorry] Surely the Mk5 Spit had 3 exhaust ports, not 6?:confused:
watp,iktch

[aviate1138]

Aviate1138
Late reply [sorry] Surely the Mk5 Spit had 3 exhaust ports, not 6?:confused:
watp,iktch
Some did, maybe most but Googling 'MK V Spitfire' Images produces quite a few 3 blade 6 port MK V's. How many of these MK V's are post war reconstructions with different engines I do not know. Weren't the 3 Port exhausts an aid to night flying? Can't find my Spit reference books - too many house moves!
One underwing radiator on MK V's but 2 on MK IX's and 4 blades - and I am confused now because I can see pics of MK V with one Rad and Four bladed 6 port exhausts. Knit one Perl one. :)
Sleep - perchance to dream!
Aviate1138

[doubledolphins]

Hate to get all serious but I would urge every one to get the "Special Edition" Double DVD. One of the sound options is to have the original William Walton score. This looses the familiar theme so beloved by Royal Marine Bands(Honest!). Changes the atmosphere of the film completely. Don't worry the rest of the sound track is still the same and none of your favorite quotes are lost.
Also a little bit suprised that no one has mentioned the tv series "Piece Of Cake". Filmed in the early 80s. Had the Spitfire under the bridge sceen. I know a lot of vets did not like it but some how the characters seemed a little bit more real. Can't remember who the totty were in that though, so they obviously were nothing on Ms York!

[Green Meat]

Glad Piece of Cake was filmed, but in the original book they are a Hurri sqn known ony as 'Hornet sqn'. Every time I see the stock footage of the pilots sitting around in dispersal deck chairs, or even the appropriate bits in BoB, I still can't help remembering the description of one of the pilots vomiting quietly when the phone in the dispersal hut clicked before ringing. I couldn't help thinking how more likely that was... :yuk: Oh come on, how could I not use it?!

[Wig Wag]

Well, according to the papers today the Battle of Britain was won by the Navy anyway!

Read on . . .

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml;jsessionid=OWTVIQZPSPRLRQFIQMGSFGGAVCBQWIV0?xml=/news/2006/08/24/nbattle24.xml

Tin hats on Ladies and Gentlemen please!

[dakkg651]

Aviate 1138

The BBMF MkV has a later Merlin fitted along with a four bladed Rotol propellor. No original production MkV aircraft had four bladers but some later aircraft did have the twelve ejector exhaust stubs. These angled stubs contributed an extra 7 mph at full power due to jet propulsion effect on the Mk9!

The early fish tailed exhaust system was nothing to do with flame damping for night flying. No damping of any kind was ever fitted to the spit. Night fighter Hurricanes with the same exhaust system were fitted with two glare shields on either side of the cowling.

[chevvron]

Reg Hallam - Black 6.
Reg was one of the best COEF's we had at Farnborough. He also flew in 'A Piece of Cake'. During his tenure, he officiated at one Farnborough Airshow; commuted in to work some days using Charles Churches Mustang!

[aviate1138]

Thanks dakkg651,
that has answered every question.
Aviate 1138

[oncemorealoft]

Just remebered, I joined 223 Sqd ATC 1975 (Halesowen, West Midlands) and we had one of the Heinkel 111 models used in the film. I believe it was a flying model that was towed behind a full size aircraft for some of the formation scenes. It was imaculately detailed and I guess would have been about 1/4 or 1/5th scale as it was around 15 ft long (?).

My dad was a journo and he had quite a lot of the PR stuff for the film including many black and white stills from the film and from the IWM of actual shots.

The double DVD version mentioned by a number of posters is well worth buying. As for Ms York and her webbing, she caused an awakening in this 11 year old (at the time) that I shall forever be thankful for!!!

[chandlers dad]

Now don't leave out Lefty Gardner and his bunch.....loved watching him fly his P-38!

http://warbird.com/lefty.html

Years ago landed in Houston. Off loaded our pax and a pilot from another airplane came over to ours. We talked for a while and I ended up hand carrying his resume to our company. He was hired a month later (course my doing part of his interview did not hurt!) and flew with us for 4 years. He is now a Captain at Southwest Airlines.

What blew me away on his resume (CV to you Europeans) was his flight time and types of aircraft. Just about every WW2 airplane there was and finally on the list was the P-38.

Turns out that he was Lefty Gardners step-son. Very nice guy and he could pretty much fly the box that the plane was shipped in. He grew up flying on Dads lap in just about every type WW2 airplane around. Course being a young kid and your Father being one of the co-founders of the Confederate Air Force, he was taken under everyone's wing and did things that we can only dream of.

Fast forward and Lefty's P-38 is not in very good shape now. Darren's brother Ladd, was flying the aircraft back from an airshow 4-5 years ago and the right engine turbo-supercharger let go in flight, and then caught fire. He landed the bird in a field and saved the plane but its in bad shape. Was trucked back to Texas and is currently undergoing restoration but its going to take a long time and lot of money.

More on his P-38 here: http://p38whitelightnin.com/story/Ladd_Interview/

All this talk about Americans going undercover to the UK before WW2 brings back some very good memories. My instructor in the 70's and early 80's for my commercial pilots license was done by one of these gents who went to Canada, then onto England and was one of those pilots. I saw his logbook and some photos of the period. Very nice guy and sorry to say that he headed "West" a few years ago.

[SASless]

Oncemore....

Looking at them....or wearing them?:E

[oncemorealoft]

SASless

Brilliant!

Looking at them...honest

[GeeRam]

Fast forward and Lefty's P-38 is not in very good shape now. Darren's brother Ladd, was flying the aircraft back from an airshow 4-5 years ago and the right engine turbo-supercharger let go in flight, and then caught fire. He landed the bird in a field and saved the plane but its in bad shape. Was trucked back to Texas and is currently undergoing restoration but its going to take a long time and lot of money.


The ex-Lefty Gardner P-38 is begining to look pretty good now in the hands of Nelson Ezell's restoration shop, and it won't be that long before it takes to the air again, there was a projection of it returning to the air before the end of this year, but whether they will make that who knows.
And err, money is not something Dietrich Mateschitz is really that short of.....;)

See here for updates....http://ezellaviation.com/p38.htm

[chandlers dad]

The ex-Lefty Gardner P-38 is begining to look pretty good now in the hands of Nelson Ezell's restoration shop, and it won't be that long before it takes to the air again, there was a projection of it returning to the air before the end of this year, but whether they will make that who knows.
And err, money is not something Dietrich Mateschitz is really that short of.....;)
See here for updates....http://ezellaviation.com/p38.htm

Did not know Lefty had sold it. They had talked about it but guess its happened.

http://ezellaviation.com/Photos/P38/p38%20transport/Full/small_DSC_0322_jpg.jpg

Daron is the one in the leather flight jacket, second from the left.