Ouch! That bl**dy well hurts......

[quartermilltopo]

This, sadly, is now our position on the great socio-economic pyramid.
Older ones may remember when we were in socio-economic group 1.
Now have a look to see how far we have slipped down the scale. Not long to go 'til we reach the bottom.
This is from the Government's website - sorry, can't remember the URL.

3. Associate professional or technical occupation (Science and engineering technicians, draughtspersons and building inspectors, IT operations and support technicians; nurses, paramedics, dispensing opticians, pharmaceutical dispensers, and medical and dental technicians; therapists; youth and community workers, housing and welfare officers; Officers in the police (sergeant and below), fire service (leading fire officer and below), and prison service (below principal officer); artists and authors; graphic, product and clothing designers; media associate professionals; sports and fitness occupations; Air traffic controllers, pilots and train drivers; public service, legal, business, finance, sales and marketing associate professionals; conservation and environmental protection officers; personnel and industrial relations officers, careers advisers, statutory examiners, occupational hygienists, and health and safety officers).

My apologies if this observation does not belong here. Feel free to relocate it!

[helen-damnation]

Sorry, but it doesn't mean much by itself. :confused:
What or who is above/below? :O
HD

[PAXboy]

Interesting ... when I was working in IT, I managed people that were IT operations and support technicians; so does that put me in a higher category than a 'mere pilot? :p

I can't work out which is the biggest insult to pilots, being categorised with occupational hygienists or with personnel and industrial relations officers :uhoh:

[jondc9]

Welcome to the next century.

THE only way to keep the airline pilot profession anywhere NEAR what it once was is to ORGANIZE UNIONS, STRIKE and be ready for anything.

I also include changing laws to allow strikes much more easily and system wide SOS (suspension of service) around the world if not just the nation.

In the USA, the president can declare an emergency, appoint a panel, and order pilots back to work.

With a republican jerk in office in the USA, we the pilots are hosed for the next couple of years...but wait till 2009...save something for your own strike fund and BAM.


ANYONE who wants to know what being a JET PILOT for a good airline needs to see the old movie, "SUNDAY IN NEW YORK" with Jane fonda, Clift Robertson (pilot) and a fine cast.

THAT should be the blueprint for our lifestyle! :-)

jon

[Airbubba]

Welcome to the next century.
THE only way to keep the airline pilot profession anywhere NEAR what it once was is to ORGANIZE UNIONS, STRIKE and be ready for anything...

Yep, going on strike will really show 'em. Just remember, they can't do without us.

[metabolix]

Group 1 includes:

Office managers, Warehouse managers, Publicans and managers of licensed premises, Travel agency managers, Garage managers and proprietors, Hairdressing and beauty salon managers and Shopkeepers.

Group 2 includes:

Judges (??!!) and Librarians.

Still, at least we're still ahead of Telephonists, Typists, Receptionists and Market research interviewers. I suddenly feel so much better.

The link (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/methods_quality/soc/section1.asp), starting at Group 1. First on the list of Group 1 are Senior officials in national government. Doesn't that tell you all you need to know....



Edited to add: I see we're on a par with Estate agents. I feel sick.

[Final 3 Greens]

These are goupings, not a hierarchy.

However, as a management consultant, I look down on you :}

[metabolix]

These are groupings, not a hierarchy.
However, as a management consultant, I look down on you :}

:D :D :ok: :ok:


If it's not a statement, funny how the "Senior officials in national government" didn't place themselves at the bottom of group 6 :}

[Jetstream Rider]

I know my place!

:}

[Loose rivets]

Before the industry and its aircrew can expect any form of respect, they will have to learn to respect the people that pay the bills.

I for one would sooner endure the heat here that tackle that journey home–with passengers being treated like cattle. Even AA's seat pitch is no longer...er, longer.

Connections that don't, and cabin crew that are aggressively rude. I'll give it a miss thanks.


Some time before 9/11, Bush senior was on British T/V promoting the US for holidays. Perhaps arrival in the US could be made less of a nightmare now that some experience has been gained with security. The immigration factor? Well, another issue, but if the US wants the income, it needs to provide a better welcome.

Almost all my traveling acquaintances all feel that it is more trouble than it is worth, and I have seen some old folk (of my age ) totally break down with frustration and fatigue. Most of the older travelers just want to see their kids...so Hobson's choice for them where they go.

[Roffa]

Still, at least we're still ahead of Telephonists, Typists, Receptionists and Market research interviewers. I suddenly feel so much better.


But behind atcos :}

[Stuck_in_an_ATR]

Don't worry gents - we still have 6 groups to go :}
Seriously, I think it will go this way. Let's facee it -we are no longer the fearless jet jockeys, the planes are getting safer and easier to fly... There are also more and more of us, which makes our trade more and more common No strikes or unions are going to change it... By the way - susch statistics remind me of the "Brave new world" by Aldous Huxley - don't they? :)

[CaptainProp]

What are these cat based on?? Pay? Pension? Benefits? (leave, medical insurance) because I find it hard to believe that librarians and store managers in the UK make 60-120 k /year...(normal pay for captains in UK(?) ) I also find it hard to believe they get £800-1000 for working on a day off....
/CP

[reverserunlocked]

As a mere radio disc-jockey I'm a 'Broadcasting associate professional'

Wonder what Wogan would make of that...?

[metabolix]

What are these cat based on??

Maybe this (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/methods_quality/ns_sec/soc2000.asp) will explain how the classifications are decided. The bit I love most of all (bearing in mind that our current Deputy Prime Minister is in social group 1) is that:

the two main concepts of the classification remain unchanged:

kind of work performed - job, and
the competent performance of the tasks and duties - skill.

:D :D

Apparently, classification in future will decided using The National Statistics Socio-economic Classification (http://www.statistics.gov.uk/methods_quality/ns_sec/default.asp):

The National Statistics Socio-economic Classification Analytic Classes
1 Higher managerial and professional occupations
1.1 Large employers and higher managerial occupations
1.2 Higher professional occupations
2 Lower managerial and professional occupations
3 Intermediate occupations
4 Small employers and own account workers
5 Lower supervisory and technical occupations
6 Semi-routine occupations
7 Routine occupations
8 Never worked and long-term unemployed

Basically, it all comes down to whether an employer, self-employed or employee; whether a supervisor; number of employees at the workplace which explains why every office bod now needs at least one "assistant".

I suppose the real question is which class do we think we should be in? Let me begin.... Whichever class it is, it can't be the same one as Estate agents and it's GOT to be above "Senior officials in national government" and "Senior officials in local government", otherwise that puts us in line with the criminal class.

[Jetstream Rider]

Are we really bothered about what section of an obscure database we will be pidgeon holed into? I'm certainly not. What matters to me is my quality of life. I see "Careers Advisers" are in the same category as us. All the careers advisers I have ever met have been unable to tell me how to become a careers adviser, let alone any other job. In short they have been useless at a non-job. Engineering Technicians are in the same category too, in contrast, most of these blokes are looked down upon and underrated for their skills. Surely this proves the fact that the groupings are wrong, rather than the fact that we have anything to worry about.

The Government got it wrong, so what's new?

[TURIN]

Well as an engineering technician I find it a bloomin affront to be lumped in with the pilots!:E :p ;)

[Sunfish]

And you wonder why British Manufacturing went into decline? You are looking at the answer!....And the fact that you even care is part of the problem.

[Bally Heck]

Maybe we should be in Group 8
821 Transport Drivers And Operatives
8211 Heavy goods vehicle drivers
8212 Van drivers
8213 Bus and coach drivers
8214 Taxi, cab drivers and chauffeurs
8215 Driving instructors
8216 Rail transport operatives
8217 Seafarers (merchant navy); barge, lighter and boat operatives
8218 Air transport operatives
8219 Transport operatives n.e.c.
"What's your job big boy?" "I'm an air transport operative love. Shancy a fag?" :ok:

[metabolix]

....And the fact that you even care is part of the problem.

Just a bit of fun ;)

I really don't think anyone is taking it seriously :ok:

[Sunfish]

Meta, old chap, as a card carrying former member of group 1.1., of course I don't take it seriously:}

[Loose rivets]

And perhaps that's the problem:rolleyes:

[greybeard]

we haven't gone down the "list", other people think they have gone up, legends in their own lunch boxes mostly.

:ok:

[Tom Sawyer]

Well as an engineering technician I find it a bloomin affront to be lumped in with the pilots!:E :p ;)

Me too......but I'm sure looking forward to my next payrise when I show the company this. :rolleyes:

[411A]

Hmmm, pilots and train drivers.

Yep, this about sums it up for the younger guys.
I notice that the category for CAPTAIN (or, if you prefer, COMMANDER) is absent.

By reference, this is clearly in an elevated category, as in 'senior management.'

Now, if we could only get the salary commensurate with the experience....at least in the long(er) term.:}

[Groundloop]

Just a bit of fun ;)
I really don't think anyone is taking it seriously :ok:

I'm sure the idiots that compiled it took it seriously!

[RogerIrrelevant69]

Hmm, so much for statistics. Apparently that would put me in Section 1:

1137 Research and development managers

(www.statistics.gov.uk/methods_quality/soc/section1.asp)

However, I know my salary level is about the same as a typical senior FO in a lot of UK + Irish airlines and my day to day responsibilities are nowhere close when it comes to people (as opposed to financial).

No doubt this cost the UK gov many £'s to produce.....money well spent if you are a statistician that is......

[HectorusRex]

Perhaps this list is a sign of the times, just as the following from Daily Mail is.

Rolls Royce boss despairs at lack of British engineering talent
By MANFREDA CAVAZZA and BECKY BARROW, Daily Mail

22:00pm 27th July 2006

http://www.dailymail.co.uk/pages/live/articles/news/news.html?in_article_id=397957&in_page_id=1770

Britain's most presitigious manufacturing firm has admitted that it is being forced to look overseas for talented graduates.


The boss of Rolls-Royce - a byword for excellence around the world - warned of the skills crisis in this country.


The company is already getting about a quarter of its annual intake of graduates from overseas, mainly America and Germany.


But Sir John Rose, 53, chief executive, said this will rise as British graduates favour soft subjects, such as media studies and hospitality.


He said: 'There is no doubt that there are some skills where we are increasingly having to go overseas.


'For a number of key skills, we are having to go to Germany and America.'


It is a cruel twist for a firm which is renowed around the world for its expertise, with a company motto: 'Trusted to deliver excellence.'


Among its many achievements, the FTSE 100 firm makes the engines for the A380, the world's biggest passenger plane.

In an article, written for this newspaper last year, Sir John spoke of his worries not just for Rolls-Royce, but the whole of the British manufacturing industry.


More than seven million people used to work in manufacturing in this country in the 1970s, but this number has collapsed to just 3.3 million. He wrote: 'As a society, we are hugely reliant on a skills base that we have taken for granted over many generations.


'But these skills could effectively disappear in our own lifetime.'


Last year, for example, more people did A-levels in media studies than physics.


Since 1990, the Institute of Physics said yesterday the number of people taking physics A-level has fallen nearly 40 per cent from 45,334 to 28,119.


Of the 183 graduates recruited by Rolls-Royce, three quarters have either an engineering or a science degree. About 10 per cent are business studies graduates.


His remarks come in the same week that the British Chambers of Commerce warned that British firms are increasingly favouring foreign workers.


Director-general David Frost said bosses tell him that Polish workers and other Eastern Europeans are their number one choice for many jobs.


These workers have 'higher-level skills and a far better attitude to work than local people.'


Most of them are 'enthusiastic' and 'committed', compared to their British equivalents who are low-skilled and lazy.


Less than half of school-leavers get five GCSEs at grade A to C, including English and maths. It is predicted that China and India will soon be producing an extraordinary five million graduates every year, including 600,000 in science and engineering.


Half of the country's leading employers say they will struggle to fill graduate vacancies this year despite soaring numbers of students leaving university.


The survey, from the Association of Graduate Recruiters, said bosses complain some have difficulty holding a proper conversation, struggle to make decisions and are not motivated.


Nearly 60 per cent of the 222 firms in the survey, including giants such as Microsoft and Unilever, did not expect to receive sufficient applications from graduates with the correct skills.


Rolls-Royce was born in 1906 when Henry Royce met Charles Rolls and the pair decided to create the eponymous firm to build 'the best car in the world.'


In 1971, the company was divided into two - the cars are now made by the German giant BMW and Rolls-Royce plc is the FTSE 100 manufacturing firm.

[Iron City]

"Less than half of school-leavers get five GCSEs at grade A to C, including English and maths. It is predicted that China and India will soon be producing an extraordinary five million graduates every year, including 600,000 in science and engineering."


From recent stories in The Economist and other places I gather the 5M graduates and 600,000 in science and engineering include any warm bod that has signed up for a course and been popped out the other end, even if it is only a 80 hour fam, not near GCSE A or even C.

Bet the managers also like the E. European folks to work for less dosh too.

[Impress to inflate]

At least in my own mind I'm still higher than Presedent Blair and Two Shags Prescot so I am happy :D

[SXB]

Guys and girls,

I wouldn't be too upset as Socio-economic groups don't really have any meaning on how well respected any particular profession may be. In this case it's a government study which means that some idiot wrote a cheque for 10 million pounds to one of the many companies which specialise in producing such studies for consumer companies and advertisers. Said company would then have taken a study already done for someone else and changed the line 'dear mr CEO of moulinex food mixers' to 'dear mr whitehall mandarin' while also promoting govt. officals from group 8 to group 1.

Grouping is normally done on a points basis like 'do you own a video recorder ?' if yes then +6 points, so if you own 3 video recorders, 4 tvs, a dishwasher and a food mixer you'll be in a fairly high group. Trying to class whole professions is clearly futile and normally pointless. For example, makers of high end sunglasses clearly know that people in aviation will pay €250 for a pair of sunglasses in the same way that people who make stethoscopes know, if they want to stay in business, that their most likely customers are the medical profession.

Just to illustrate the point take "catering manager" from group one in the study. This is the manager of your local McDonalds or Burger King. Working in McDonalds is probably a hard job but cannot be compared to being the Commander of Boeing 747 responsible for the lives of 400 people. Maybe catering managers buy a lot of video recorders....

The other thing which makes this study b*llocks is there's no differential between different types of pilots, apparently you are just "pilots" Though a 25 year old Flt Lt flying tornadoes in the RAF is actually in group one though because he's also a military officer. Clearly it's rubbish...

So to conclude guys.... if you want to be in a higher group get down to your local electrical store and buy a few VCRs, dishwashers and foodmixers:)

[metabolix]

Working in McDonalds is probably a hard job but cannot be compared to being the Commander of Boeing 747 responsible for the lives of 400 people.

Ooooo, I don't know..... I reckon working in Maccy D's means your playing with the lives of thousands of people on a daily basis :}

[JackOffallTrades]

Because I know I'm superior to all those other idiots anyway! Can't get excited by people who don't understand our profession but still try to bracket us anyway. The numpties would think differently if they had to take ATPL exams or before producing that junk pile of a list I'm sure.

[Loose rivets]

There are a lot of ‘graduates' stacking shelves in Texas. But then, they will always be in work because there are more and more and more and more businesses starting, selling self-gratification.

I remember an article coming out in the Log or some such in the early 60s. ‘And pilots will soon be considered to be of no more standing than carriage drivers.'

And waddayaknow...we let it happen.

[Loose rivets]

Mmm..just noticed that I missed the point in my post above, that the quote was taken from a time when aviation was in its infancy.

[JackOffallTrades]

I've done my time stacking shelves. It sucked. So I damn well made sure i was gonna get somewhere in this civil aviation game. I'm proud of what I've achieved...........So no pen pushing peasant numpty is gonna underate what it takes to become a pilot in a cut-throat dog-eat dog industry..... Ever. Be proud chaps and don't let the bastards grind you down.

If you're still stacking shelves, but have the ambition to plant your butt in a fast slippy seat, you should still count yourself as better than the numpties!

Godspeed good chaps.

[chateau57]

I think they had the right idea in "The Hitchhikers's guide to the Galaxy" - when the earth was supposedly doomed, they launched a spacecraft containing an "advance party" of hairdressers, personnel officers, management consultants and telephone sanitisers to go and colonise a new planet .......

If I remember rightly, the rest of mankind back on Earth was then wiped out a few years later, by a virus contracted from a dirty telephone ........

:)

[Lucky Strike]

Just a bit of fun ;)
I really don't think anyone is taking it seriously :ok:


You should be:

The National Statistics Socio-economic Classification Analytic Classes
1 Higher managerial and professional occupations
1.1 Large employers and higher managerial occupations
1.2 Higher professional occupations
2 Lower managerial and professional occupations
3 Intermediate occupations
4 Small employers and own account workers
5 Lower supervisory and technical occupations
6 Semi-routine occupations
7 Routine occupations
8 Never worked and long-term unemployed

Would it be reasonable to assume the long term aim of government is to create more groups 1, 1.1 & 1.2 within government; to work out how to tax groups 2, 3, 4 & 5 more. Groups 6 & 7 will mainly consist of immigrants who have no vote, don’t vote, or can’t read the form. Those formerly in group 6 & 7 will expand group 8.

Once groups 1, 1.1, 1.2 & 8 equals more than 50% of the voting population, you can never vote government out, or only vote for an opposition with very similar policies.

[Bad Robot]

So that nicely puts us all back in group 1 then.;)