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Revolutionarry
3rd Aug 2006, 01:45
I handled a flight with the president of a certain East African country on board, he had his own personal airliner, brand new, the opulance was amazing, whilst millions of the citizens of his country starve to death, millions of people pay for aid (which my country pays millions of pounds for) to try and keep the population of HIS country alive, this money comes from MY taxes along with millions of my countrymen, I have absolutly no problem paying to try and look after poor starving people, I object vehemently to paying for the the oppulent footballer type lifesyle of a corrupt criminal gang, who happen to have taken over control of a country at the point of a gun, does anyone else have any opinions on this?

reynoldsno1
3rd Aug 2006, 01:52
... quelle surprise ... give this thread an hour or so as well.....

G-CPTN
3rd Aug 2006, 01:52
Such is life. Even in Communism, where all men are equal, some are more equal than others.

Revolutionarry
3rd Aug 2006, 02:21
Is that all you have to say, what was the point of live aid and all that, to finance murderous criminals who obtain power through the point of a gun, not for the good of the people but to line their own pockets, the fuel for that flt alone would have kept a village going for months, and you accept it, and it is millions of people accepting this kind of behaviour that allows it to happen, it is a disgrace nothing less, shame on them and shame on us for permitting this, they are not business men, they are a criminal gang who run a country and we accept it.

con-pilot
3rd Aug 2006, 02:23
Welcome to the real world. Not that it is right, but sadly that is the way it is.

However, don't worry, probably some one else will knock that guy off and be even worse.

Revolutionarry
3rd Aug 2006, 02:30
ok, so you say we have to accept this, I am by no means nieve at all, this whole thing needs sorting out, time to sweep all this shit away. This prick is in our country living it up, and you think that is ok, there is such a thing as right and wrong, that, and the acceptance of that is wrong!

con-pilot
3rd Aug 2006, 02:46
Never said that it was okay. It is just the way some parts of the world are, sadly.

So what is your solution? Send in the Marines? Kill the bugger?

I don't like it either, but what can you do about it?


(I know, bitching about it helps, but,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,,)

Revolutionarry
3rd Aug 2006, 02:50
Strip him of his money and give it to the people who need it, whilst we are at it throw the bugger into the deepest dungeon we can find and starve him a bit

pigboat
3rd Aug 2006, 02:56
Strip him of his money and give it to the people who need it, whilst we are at it throw the bugger into the deepest dungeon we can find and starve him a bit

Have the UN do it. They bat a thousand with that type of thing. :E

con-pilot
3rd Aug 2006, 03:00
Strip him of his money and give it to the people who need it, whilst we are at it throw the bugger into the deepest dungeon we can find and starve him a bit

If only we could and if it was that easy.

However, I am not God, nor I believe are you.

We, the United States, are criticized beyond belief for being in Iraq, so now we need to interfere in another country and another tin-pot dictator.

No thanks.

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
3rd Aug 2006, 03:44
guns don't have points. Perhaps it was a knife you were thinking of.

Revolutionarry
3rd Aug 2006, 03:52
They do if you put one on the end!

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
3rd Aug 2006, 04:10
touche! ;)

Solid Rust Twotter
3rd Aug 2006, 07:21
United Nations - Keeping third world despots in caviare since 1945...;)

Curious Pax
3rd Aug 2006, 07:58
The Ethiopian 737 that arrived in Manchester last night looks nice inside then does it? I wonder what the VIP inside is visiting the northwest of England for.

woolyalan
3rd Aug 2006, 08:29
perhaps he's gone to see malcom glazer to mooch more money for a nice yacht?

as con-pilot says, its not as easy as, right you, come ere giv us your money and live in squallor, just imagine the headlines if we went to war:

Coalition INVADES small innocent third world starving country!!!

people who haven't seen what youv'e seen will be more disgusted at that.

prospector
3rd Aug 2006, 09:49
Probably came over to book Geldorf to raise some more aid money for himself and his hangers on. And have a word with Gordon Brown to forgive more debt so he can buy a bigger aeroplane.

Duckbutt
3rd Aug 2006, 10:01
And tell them which Swiss bank account to pay the money in to.

This of course demonsrates the other side to the problems allegedly caused by Western countries seeking to enforce previously agreed repayment schedules.

tony draper
3rd Aug 2006, 10:26
Best ever description of aid.
Money taken from poor people in rich countries
and given to rich people in poor countries.
:cool:

Sunray Minor
3rd Aug 2006, 10:41
And chances are he is over hear striking up deals with other certain "important" people in the UK, who will happily turn a blind eye to his "indescretions" as there is money to be made out of it.

Anyone remember the 40 million BAe pocketted from selling a military radar system to Tanzania (40mil being about 1/3 of the annual education budget).

Hmmmm.

Tolsti
3rd Aug 2006, 10:58
Welcome to Africa Revolutionarry.....maybe Immigration could fill the plane up with failed asylum seekers for the return trip... it would save a few bob and the President would have to opportunity to meet a few of his ''loyal'' subjects.

tilewood
3rd Aug 2006, 11:24
I handled a flight with the president of a country on board, he had his own personal airliner, brand new, the opulance was amazing, this money comes from MY taxes along with millions of my countrymen, I object vehemently to paying for the lifesyle of a corrupt criminal gang, who happen to have taken over control of a country does anyone else have any opinions on this?



It's got to be Tony Bliar, Prescott, Brown and Beckett!! :p

Sorry Revolutionarry, I doctored your post to make a point!! :ok:

G-CPTN
3rd Aug 2006, 12:14
Whilst I am in no way condoning the situation described, it is just a matter of scale. In every society, there are those with privileges beyond their 'rights'. Deputy Prime Minister Prescott. The money expended on him would keep many UK citizens in luxury, never mind those of poorer overseas countries. It isn't right, but we, the general populace, are unable to do anything about it. The ballot box? THESE are supposed to be the LABOUR Party, the party of the Working Man. How many 'Conservatives' enjoy the lifestyle of the Deputy PM, never mind Working Men who have always voted Labour? How do you suggest that 'we' should divest this leech of his 'benefits'? Assassinate him? The Press are TRYING, but Teflon Tony is covering John's back. Scandalous? Of course. Write to your MP. Write to your PM.
It's POLITICS, and politicians operate like this. Rulers are merely autocratic politicians.
As I said above, C'est la vie. It's life. You'd have to live alone on a Desert Island to avoid it.
Does ANYBODY know of a truly egalitarian society?

BenThere
3rd Aug 2006, 12:20
I would surmise that the country where the greatest percentage of citizens live in comparative equality is North Korea.

woolyalan
3rd Aug 2006, 12:31
I would surmise that the country where the greatest percentage of citizens live in comparative equality is North Korea.

that is, with the exception of kim jong-il :eek:

its a sad fact that nowhere will be free from corruption or the like!

Revolutionarry
3rd Aug 2006, 15:21
The really annoying thing is all the money, that has been given in good faith by honest hard working people, as they thought to help the poor starving people of Africa has instead ended up in the hands of a brutal butcher, how was this permitted to happen?

At least with Blair and Prescott etc, our papers can voice objection etc and we can Vote them out, or criticise them(at least up to now anyway), over there if those poor people say anything they get the chop, so in a way we have to stand of for them!

Solid Rust Twotter
3rd Aug 2006, 16:35
I don't think the present Ethiopian fellow is all that bad (if it was indeed he). His predecessor, Mengistu, was a bit of a problem child, though....:eek:

woolyalan
4th Aug 2006, 10:40
The aid that we send is not all going to line the pockets of those in power, a lot of it does go to help the cause in the way of water pumps and schools (give a man a fish and teach a man to fish kinda thing) rather than millions upon millions of sacks of rice. Like has already been said, there is a an element of corruption in EVERY country.

AcroChik
4th Aug 2006, 10:59
About those millions and millions of sacks of rice:

America's rice farming industry isn't made up of little independent farms but gigantic corporate ones. It's a highly subsidized industry producing a very expensive product at taxpayers' expense. Subsidies generally cause producers to over-produce in order to provoke more subsidy payments.

In order to get rid of the over-production of rice, the US government buys the surplus rice at an above-market price and then pays to warehouse it, also at taxpayer expense. To get rid of it, what do you think it does?

When countries agree to receive foreign aid from the US, they are obliged to also receive our surplus agricultural products, "A Gift of the American People." It is a condition of receiving monetary aid. Essentially, the US government gives away the over-priced rice for which it subsidized production, then later bought at an inflated price and then paid to warehouse and then ship overseas.

Now, many of the countries receiving this rice ~ or any other sort of "free" agricultural product ~ already have some form of rice farming ~ or any other sort of agriculture ~ going on inside their borders. What do you think a sudden influx of free rice ~ or grain or milk or flour etc ~ does to their little (individual, non-corporate) farming enterprises?

Essentially, the entire agricultural systems of these countries are undermined, creating rural unemployment, influx of rural populations to urban centers ill-prepared to receive them, more urban unemployment, social instability, and the destruction of the one industry that might have been the first to prroduce an export product and thus earn the poor country some foreign exchange revenue. This last is key, as foreign exchange credit is the key to building an economy and having currency that's worth anything.

Sounds like a feed-back loop, doesn't it?

I'd like to point out that these rice and other agricultural product shipments aren't only to places where there is a food emergency, but to places receiving any financial aid ~ including loans.

There is no more intimate relatonship than that between the debtor and creditor.

woolyalan
4th Aug 2006, 11:05
whoa ther bess!

long story short, the world is a messed up place :(

Unwell_Raptor
4th Aug 2006, 12:25
This is no different in principle to the Russian oligarchs who, by dubious methods, picked up their county's assets for next to nothing and now swan around in private jets (up to 767 size!) and huge yachts while pouring money into, for example, football that should be put to work in their own country.

airship
4th Aug 2006, 12:48
Curious Pax wrote earlier: The Ethiopian 737 that arrived in Manchester last night looks nice inside then does it? I wonder what the VIP inside is visiting the northwest of England for It's obviously no more than mere coincidence, but it just so happens that Ethiopian troops went into Somalia very recently in order to bolster the Somali government-in-exile who're up against some nasty Islamists I'm told. The ones that the CIA-backed rebels couldn't handle...

I do so love these wars by proxy. It's jolly decent of Ethiopia to "do the honours", so to speak. And it's only natural that it ought to be rewarded for putting the lives of their troops on the firing line for us. I expect that Ethiopian soldiers get paid extra in wartime. Dollars, pounds, or euros, in cash would be acceptable. You'd need a pretty big executive jet if you were going home with $10 - 20m in small bills wouldn't you?! ;) :uhoh:

PS. UR, but it's not at all wise to have all your assets in your home country - think of Yukos?!

Revolutionarry
4th Aug 2006, 18:33
A long way to go for a beautiful double bed and 60 inch television. But hey when your president, you can do anything. Shameful

ETStar
28th Aug 2006, 03:20
I handled a flight with the president of a certain East African country on board, he had his own personal airliner, brand new, the opulance was amazing, whilst millions of the citizens of his country starve to death, millions of people pay for aid (which my country pays millions of pounds for) to try and keep the population of HIS country alive, this money comes from MY taxes along with millions of my countrymen, I have absolutly no problem paying to try and look after poor starving people, I object vehemently to paying for the the oppulent footballer type lifesyle of a corrupt criminal gang, who happen to have taken over control of a country at the point of a gun, does anyone else have any opinions on this?
So I wonder if this is the Ethiopian leader we are talking about ... the timing appears to be right for that nice and shiny Ethiopian Airlines 73W at Manchester (is that where Banana Republic is?). At any rate, my thoughts:
- If indeed the Ethiopian leader, Prime Minister is the title, not President. We wouldn't call Tony Blair "The Queen" now, would we?
- The brand new, shiny aircraft which Revolutionarry got to service (lucky him!), not the PM's personal aircraft, it's the national airline's. I hear the aircraft, when in VIP config, are nice to see. And the airline, a profitable enterprise, does not get any of your pounds to finance its operations and/or purchases. Oh, and it's got even newer, shinier 787s on the way!
- The government, which came into power "at the point of a gun" in the early nineties, still relieved the country's inhabitants from about two decades of fear and misery instilled by the preceding government. In fact, some theorize that your contributions to live aid had a bit to do towards that misery as well, in the form of amunitions purchased to support the chokehold on the people.
- And what would those "aid" organizations that your great big pounds finance do if you were to withold it? The mainly western expats in Ethiopia in their 4x4s and lavish lifestyles get most of your hard earned cash as well, as the aid has to get there somehow, non?
- And someone mentioned the United Nations. Ha! If the UN were there for the people that need it most, this world would been a much better place. Think of the UN's budget and think of the starving people. Think of what the UN pays in real estate in NY, and think of the starving people. Think of what the UN pays for travel costs, acquisitions, salaries and benefits and think of the starving people.
- From personal experience trying to deliver donated $$ to more than one organization in Ethiopia and being shunned away, I have realized the best way to get my hard earned to work is to deliver it directly to those who need it. Having looked at and read about the overhead that exists with organizations like World Vision and the fact that for every dollar we give only about 20 cents make it to those who need it (think 4x4s and benefits here), I have taken it upon myself to do enough research to ensure that my money is used the right way and gets there in its entirety. And so should you, since it obviously bugs you.
- And AcroChik brought up a great part of aid. Where would all the stored wheat in Canada or the rice in the US go if it is not sent to starving folks in Africa? And how would those shipping companies in the West survive were it not for these regular government-paid shipments? Funny how you ask for $50000, and you MUST, along with that, receive 100 tons of rice, or no aid at all.

prospector
28th Aug 2006, 03:56
ETStar,
Would have to agree with your thoughts, in my experience the UN is for the most part there to serve the interests of the UN experts. As always there are some notable exceptions, but not nearly enough.

Black Fly
28th Aug 2006, 06:12
I am one of a growing number of isolationists in the U.S. who believe the U.S. should withdraw all of our troops from everywhere and close our borders to all immigration. We should also stop all foreign aide and foreign military sales. For those countries who want nukes, we say build them and join the atomics club; the more the merrier.

It is time for China; or Iran or North Korea or any other country who feels they have the push to step up and start policing the world - oh, and don't forget to turn the lights out when you leave.

ETStar
28th Aug 2006, 06:31
I am one of a growing number of isolationists in the U.S. who believe the U.S. should withdraw all of our troops from everywhere and close our borders to all immigration. We should also stop all foreign aide and foreign military sales. For those countries who want nukes, we say build them and join the atomics club; the more the merrier.
It is time for China; or Iran or North Korea or any other country who feels they have the push to step up and start policing the world - oh, and don't forget to turn the lights out when you leave.

... but when you start thinking on a larger scale, you will realize that the US is as dependent on other countries as others are on it. And it is not just oil we are talking about, it's also many other raw materials and manufactured products. Americans would not be able to live life as they do now if the country were to shut its borders and ports.