HUET & CRM For NSW RFS 06/07 season

[belly tank]

Hi All,

just had word from RFS that the HUET and CRM will be mandatory this year for fires no exceptions. makes it a bit hard for pilots in the bush to get these done doesnt it!:ugh:

anyway just letting you all know, ive got a CRM but have booked a HUET for early september with Careflight in Sydney.

Also heard but dont quote me that an EX navy pilot is the new advisor for the RFS:D

[McGowan]

I do agree that it isn't easy for everyone to have done the HUET/CRM thing, BUT, RFS has been telling us it will be a requirement for a little while now. It isn't a new thing. As you know, Careflight Safety run the HUET course on a regular basis so it's not impossible to do. I also remember an RFS email regarding CRM courses not that long ago.
Having the HUET course done is a good idea, I know that the first time I did it, I was surprised at how easy it was to become disorientated once under water, even though I knew it was coming and had been prepared and briefed about it.
The CRM thing is a bit of a mystery to me for single pilot ops. I wonder how many of our passengers, be they air attack, mapping or whatever will have done the CRM course before they get in a helicopter and how are they going to prove it to the PIC!!
I also wonder what background the new aviation advisor has in the way of fire ops or civil/commercial experience. Not slagging him off yet, just wondering....................:E

[Ascend Charlie]

Just did another CRM refresher at Flight Safety.

It is oriented towards the 2-pilot crew, and as I was the only single-pilot operator on the course, they just said "do as best you can, you are not really on your own - your crew includes the people on the ground."

Fat lot of help they are, when you need three hands to carry out some of the emergency procedures.

Sometimes, the advisors to people like RFS and the electricity authorities, have all the right intentions, but they put in requirements like Quality Assurance. Everybody has seen this specified in tenders, but how many of the tender-winners, i.e. the cheapest price, have got QA?

Requiring CRM for single-pilot bucketing ops is not really logical. And as T McG says, how does the pilot know that his spotter has been trained? HOW does the spotter get trained? :confused:

[BigMike]

Question: does the HUET/CRM courses have to be done by anyone in particular, and is there a requirement to have done them no more than X years ago, etc. Any info appreciated.
I have both courses BTW, just not done in Australia.

Cheers BM

[800]

Generaly, the currency period is detailed by the provider of the course as this will usually come from the body that approves their courses. (i.e. a Government body that may approve or certify the course provider to conduct such courses). Sometimes these courses are required to be re-approved every (say) 2 or 3 years, hence the currency period.

Secondly, the currency period may be dictated by the Authority (i.e. RFS) that may or may not say that the course has to be conducted no more than X years ago or be current.

Thirdly, a certain currency maybe lsited in the operators operations manual.

Interestingly, in Aus, CASA does not stipulate a currency period for "underwater escape training"; only that it must have been undertaken. This requirement is actually only for Night MPT operations though.

A dam good course though, the HUET, and hopefully you will never have to use it!

800

[belly tank]

Big Mike!
My CRM certifiacate is current for 2 years from date of issue and as 800 has said about the HUET above.
I had a discussion with an RFS aviation personality:8 regarding courses they approve, he told me that as long as its a recognised legitimate course then it would be acceptable:ok:

[BigMike]

Thanks guys.
Did a HUET, CRM, and a Open Water survial course in May 2004 which was run by a South African company (excellent course) and wondered if that would be acceptable.
Will be in Oz late Sep, early Oct with a view to flying the fire season this year. Any contacts or info, a PM would be appreciated... and duly rewarded with beer, woman, or wine when I'm there...;)

[pohm1]

Guys, take the beer or the wine..........avoid the woman. It'll be Bigmike in a skirt and wig :yuk:

[Aquaboy]

McGowan,
Was doing a little checking up on your question about the Aviation Adviser that keeps the industry safe. Seems that there are a variety of comments from industry and military alike.
A source tells me that the expert come from a military (Navy) back ground with very limited commercial civil experience. After leaving the employ of the big ship, he joined BASI in the west as a Photographer and assistant investigator for several years till rejoining the military flying Seahawks. While back on the NSW South Coast he assisted in starting the consultancy business he now works for to give himself a hobby after the pay off.
His consulting reports nearly read the same from the one to the DPI to the NSW RFS and I have been told that his cut and paste now has hit a power provider that he is consulting for. One of the suggestions that he had for the power company is that the power line inspectors have a HUET course in the event they fly near or over water. How much water does one thing power lines cross??
If one was skeptical, one may think that he is trying to build an empire in consultancy as well as create work for ex-military buddies!
As for fire fighting experience, I believe he once flew a Seahawk during some fires but has no more operational experience then that.
Not knocking military pilots at all, but commercial operations take years of pain stakingly living to a budget and most ex-military pilots I know have initial difficulty understanding the power of the almighty commercial pressure.
Brace! Brace! Brace!

[belly tank]

Aqua Boy!..or should i say Aqua Lung:{ (one day dont laugh!)
That is what we are facing!.....in all honesty...i appreciate that he is an ADVISOR, i once had a conversation with this photogrpaher come journalist come advisor and my first impressions were very limited. and god help the in field audits:ugh: ......why dont we all train to be space cadets and that would cover all regs:D
now through no fault of his own he is trying to better himslef and who wouldnt:8 ....but lets compare apples with apples, and keep it practicle..........but then again we cant have that can we:E

[Ned-Air2Air]

BellyTank - You dont know **** about Mark Ogden. If you did you wouldnt make such stupid comments as that.

First off he isnt a photographer come journalist. Those two things, both of which he is good at, came at a later date.

His background is as a Navy helicopter industructor then as an accident investigator with the ATSB. He is also rated on a number of civil machines. If he is so limited in his abilities why do such companies as RFS, energy companies, Oilsearch etc hire him to consult to them.

Do some research before you start attacking him and for the record RFS came to him to ask for his help, NOT him going to them.

[Oogle]

Ned

He may be a good mate of yours but I don't know what drugs he is on recommending a CRM course for fire fighting aircraft!

Total waste of time and money asking for CRM.:mad:

HUET - different story.

[Ogsplash]

Hey Guys,
I'm certainly impressed with the personal attack on me. Nothing like knowing some facts first huh? Oh well, I guess this is a rumour network.
It seems that as soon as you put your head above the parapet, there's always someone willing to take it off.
Firstly, I work with several companies as well as for myself. I am working with a power company following an accident one of their contractors had. I had nothing at all to do with DPI and I know not of any report to DPI or even the power company. I have produced audit and review reports for several agencies that both the agencies and the operators commented favourably on. I have been doing this for several years.
Yep, I was in the navy. I worked in BASI/ATSB for 7 years and was involved in the investigation of a hell of a lot incidents and accidents both in Oz and overseas. I went back in the navy to teach and am now becoming a reservist to continue flying but devote more time to advising. I am qual'd on quite a few machines both fixed and rotary wing. I am instrument rated and a few thousand hours under my belt. I have crashed following a tail rotor failure and have survived hitting wires in my early days. I have been instructing for nearly 25 years and don't how many students I have trained-but a lot. I also lecture at a university in aviation safety matters.
I have run safety seminars at my own volition that have been well received.
I went through, as an investigator, several coronials...I don't think any of you would want to go through that process believe me.
I edit and write for Ned. I think I have a pretty good appreciation of the industry world-wide. I have analysed accidents and accident rates. I have flown in several countries but the air is air and helicopters are helicopters - no big deal there.
The CRM for powerlinesmen has been a huge success and the course has been well received by them. HUET was recommended if the helicopter was spending time over water and was not at a height to make it to shore...people tend to drown in helicopters if they go into the water regardless how big or small the body of water.
It's about time some of the industry began seriously looking at themselves and broke out of the 1960s when close enough was good enough. Unless you fully understand and appreciate what you are doing, you really do leave yourself open to problems should an accident occur.
So, if you want to throw brickbats, fair enough, there isn't much I can do about it. But believe me when I say that all I am trying to do is help raise the standards of the industry in a practical way. I have seen too many dead bodies and spoken to too many families of dead pilots and passengers not to take what I am doing seriously.

[Ogsplash]

Belly, Aqua, Oogle et al, please PM me if you wish and would enjoy catching up for a discussion sometime over a beer or a wine.

Og

[belly tank]

Ned, comments taken on board mate!
Ogsplash!...i would love to sit down with you one day over a beer and discuss why the different fire agencies have different regulations and standards eg:Winching Ops single Vs Twin, im sure we can have an interesting discussion about that one:ok:
just to throw a spanner in the works when we asked an RFS person what they would do in respect to pilots that didnt have CRM,HUET etc if there was a bumper season, and the need for a STBY pilot was required would you require them to have these requirements the answer was "well we would possibly consider it for them (ie: a dispensation)"........go figure:{ .
I did my CRM last year when the RFS stated it was mandatory........after half the season was over and 3/4 of pilots hadnt done anything there was a releif of the requirement. and asked if you (rfs)would favour me (with a CRM) to someone who had'nt completed the course..the answer was no not really....again go figure:{
Some consistency would be appreciated. so we know where we all stand:ok:

[topendtorque]

Two phrases come to mind here and I am not having a go at anyone, is this about 'managing the minutiae' or a demonstration of the weak political trait of, 'reacting to media rather than managing on merit?'

Some have talked about QA, does this hiring authority haved a published HACCP procedure, if not then they need to get qualify their requirement.

No operation can be totally exhaustive in covering all risk, good training in the area of high probability will nearly always cover recovery in the areas of low probability.

It would be onorous and way too expensive to think that all operators should have training to cover all probabilities.

Remember the most used used phrase in our industry. "F*** never seen that before."

[Ogsplash]

Belly, would like to catch up sometime. Please understand that some of the requirements pre-date me coming on board with RFS and while I have audited for a couple of years, I was auditing to RFS requirements. Having said that, I do agree with the requirements although it would be best if there was a national approach and I am aware there are moves towards that. HUET really is a good idea for anyone bucketing. CRM...essential I believe for multi-crew ops. Single pilot CRM is gaining recognition. I agree that there needs to be consistency and I believe this will improve with time. Twin vs Single...well, I've done a lot of research into this subject drawing on ICAO Annex 6 as well as other references such as ATSB accident and incident data, and have provided a quite lengthy paper to RFS to consider. RFS intends to consult with industry on its contents. A similar paper has been authored on single engine helicopter performance requirements. A standard now exists for winching. We're currently working on a paper to address DG. So all in all, I honestly believe the RFS is working towards establishing a good and workable set of standards based on reasoned discussion. Don't forget, it isn't just the aviation regulations we need to consider but also the State's OH&S requirements.

[belly tank]

Ogspalsh!

your views are taken onboard and i all honesty the RFS have come a long way in the past few years RE; aviation ops. the tasking of machines using local operators first seems to be improving and is quite consistent. i will introduce myself at the RFS breif to you in sept and we can have a good ol chat..:ok:

[McGowan]

For me, the question still stands, will all of those intending on being associated with helicopter ops on fires be doing a CRM course?
From memory, on the course I did, it was mentioned that all associated with the operation are part of the operating crew, refuellers, dispatchers, fire fighters etc. Not to mention those who will be on board the aircraft. I have to prove to RFS that I have the qualifications to be on the fire, yet nobody boarding my aircraft needs to show me anything but orange overalls......................:confused:

[Neerg rN]

I don't blame RFS or any fire fighting agency from requiring a pilot to show and demonstrate his qualifications, not to mention that the aircraft is properly equipped and serviced, and the pilot is current and experienced.

RFS put lots of their ground and observers etc on their CRM courses so those personnel should know something about the process. If your sitting alongside another person for hours, use him or her. Even if you say just one thing to him say "Call every wire you see, every time you see it". you will be well ahead.

[helo1]

Ogsplash, Bellytank, can you tell me if it is mandatory for the Air Attack Supervisors and Air Observers from the RFS to do a CRM Course and HUET.
Its just that i know someone who is both and hasnt heard anything from the RFS.

Helo1

[Ogsplash]

I checked with RFS to make sure I wasn't talking out of my ... um ... a*se. Yes HUET is required but for fire bombing helicopter pilots only. There was a two year warning that RFS planned to introduce these requirements. AAS and AOB are not on board bombing aircraft in NSW and are therefore not required to complete this training.
CRM requirements have been around for a while and yes AAS and AOB are required to complete this training. Pilots etc are able to access the training the RFS provides and this is scheduled later in the year. They may also complete training elsewhere.
Hope this helps.

[paul abersynth]

Mark,

So at this stage of the game there is no requirement for bi-annual currency for the HUET course. Please Confirm.

PA

[paul abersynth]

Anyone?

PA