Yet Another Jetstar Thread

[notmyC150v2]

This article appears in todays SMH. There are two points that I thought were interesting. Firstly the allegation that current QANTAS pilots are grossly overpaid and are uncompetitive (with whom though is not made clear). Secondly, that it is common that pilots gain the quals and then run off overseas, when from my observations here it would appear to be the other way around.

Any thoughts?

Want to fly for us? That's $33,150, please
Scott Rochfort
July 28, 2006

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AdvertisementFIRST there was the $89 interview charge for flight attendants applying for a job at Jetstar International. Now pilots applying to Jetstar's long-haul arm will have to fork out $150 for an interview and $33,000 to train to fly the airline's Airbus 330-200s.

The Qantas offshoot, which plans to launch flights to Asia in November, said charging pilots for training was "standard".

Jetstar's chief executive, Alan Joyce, said numerous low-cost airlines around the world - including Virgin Blue and Ryanair - required pilots to have previous training to use their aircraft, while other airlines tied pilots to a bond if they received training.

"We've negotiated training at these various simulator centres for very low rates," Mr Joyce said. "We give [pilots] those rates and they pay it and if they decide … they want to go overseas, we haven't incurred a huge amount of costs associated with training and we don't have the complexity of tying people into bonds."

Mr Joyce said Qantas did not charge its pilots to train because - unlike Jetstar - it had a cadet pilot program. Jetstar will use Qantas simulators to train its pilots.

Jetstar said it had received 1000 applications for long-range pilot jobs, largely from its pool of domestic pilots and Australian pilots working for overseas carriers. Mr Joyce said Jetstar's pay rates were "realistic" compared with the higher rates offered by its parent, Qantas, which were "not right".

"They are overpaid. They are not competitive," Mr Joyce said.

The $180,000 annual salary of a Jetstar A330 captain is about $100,000 less than a Qantas captain receives. Jetstar co-pilots will be paid about $100,000 a year.

Mr Joyce said Jetstar's rates of pay were in line with several Asian airlines and "a number of North American carriers that have gone into chapter 11 [bankruptcy]". US Airways was one example.

Low labour costs are the backbone of Jetstar's plans to have a 40 per cent lower cost base than Qantas, and in turn offer much lower fares into Asia.

Jetstar has rejected calls by the Australian International Pilots Association for experienced Qantas pilots to fly its A330s.

Qantas will have four of its A330-200s repainted in Jetstar livery in coming months.

Jetstar has already bypassed the pilots' association in striking a collective agreement with its pilots. The association's general manager, Peter Somerville, said Jetstar's lower wages and policy of charging training for its pilots undermined the culture of goodwill pilots traditionally feel for the airline they work for.

"The legacy carriers take a longer-term view. Jetstar's view is really get in, make a profit and get out," Mr Somerville said.

Jetstar also announced it sold 68,000 tickets to Asia and 14,000 domestic tickets on the first day it put international tickets up for sale on its website. The airline said this was a record.

[Ultralights]

Mr Joyce said Jetstar's rates of pay were in line with several Asian airlines and "a number of North American carriers that have gone into chapter 11 [bankruptcy]". US Airways was one example.

Is Mr Joyce looking at Bankrupt airlines now for guidence?

[SOPS]

Hate to say it..its the same sort of talk as "that year" ..watch out mainline!!!!:confused:

[hotnhigh]

Cadets, the backbone of Qantas. Who'd have thought!:yuk:
I think the bloke must have had dodgy guinness last night.:=

[SOPS]

Exactly HotnHigh..its just talk in the media to the great unwashed who dont know better...but, again, if I was mainline, hearing this stuff, I would be very very worried:bored:

[Dogimed]

Mr Joyce said Jetstar's rates of pay were in line with several Asian airlines


Great, now lets get the automotive and textile workers to get paid in line with Asian companies and see how the country likes that.

What a joke...

Dog

[SOPS]

as I just said Dogimed....if I was mainline.......

[airbusthreetwenty]

QUOTE:Advertisement FIRST there was the $89 interview charge for flight attendants applying for a job at Jetstar International.
Come one Leane, you should already know the media like to sensationalise a Jetstar story.

Just like most of the posters here on PPRuNe.
:E

[CaptainToBe]

Have a look at the following link to the Jetstar pilot page. Look at the last line. Is it just me or is something wrong here. Maybe somebody forgot to use the grammar check before posting it on the website.
http://www.bfound.net/detail.aspx?jobId=36756&CoId=27&rq=1

[jaded boiler]

QF pilots might need to more carefully consider their vote at the next federal election. The attitude of Qantas senior executives towards mainline pilots' remuneration rates appears to be patently obvious. Three more years of howardochet and his poisonous "work choices" swill, combined with the expiration of any eba signed up to subsequent to March 28 2006, will give management the untrammelled power to unilaterally reduce wages to a level they deem "competitive".

[Buster Hyman]

compared with the higher rates offered by its parent, Qantas, which were "not right".

"They are overpaid. They are not competitive," Mr Joyce said.

Anybody going to bite at that remark?

Alan Joyce, said numerous low-cost airlines around the world - including Virgin Blue and Ryanair - required pilots to have previous training to use their aircraft
Argue your point on the merit of what you are doing Mr Joyce and not on what others are doing. Just because it's a "good idea" OS, doesn't mean it's any good here!

[BAE146]

I've said this before and I'll say it again..............

"Don't buy the endorsement !"

Jetstar ARE starting to sweat in the recruiting department because a lot of applicants can't afford it.

Let's not kid ourselves about bonding agreements. Joyce says ......we don't have the complexity of tying people into bonds Get real Al, there is NO complexity about a bond.

It is fairer than paying money up front because the employee has the choice on whether to stick around or pay the price. Payment up front means he is stuck with the sh!t if Jetstar gets even nastier. This wouldn't suit you and your group would it Al. Rule by intimidation. There's no paying for endorsements or bonds in this part of the world. I'll bet the lads who left EK are going to get one hell of a surprise - what a homecoming gift that'll be!

It's great that aviation does the full circle because I can't wait to see you & Jetstar get yours Joycey!

[hotnhigh]

Yeah but the new Jetstar ad says it's all about choice.......
You have so many choices with them. Just look at the gold coast and darwin. So many bloody choices. The punters love it!:ugh:

[oldhasbeen]

Anyone going to switch over from the Sharks/Knights game to watch a story on QF/ J*......anyone?..... anyone????:eek: :eek:

[aircraft]

Buster Hyman,

"They are overpaid. They are not competitive," Mr Joyce said.
He means that they are paid in excess of what he considers the market rates for pilots to be. Please QF pilots, don't bother to make postings telling us how valuable you think you are - we have read them before.

By "not competitive" he means there is another option open to him that, based on price, he would rather take. For example, think of the quotes you get from two plumbers to fix your toilet - one for $200 and the other for $150 - the higher priced plumber would be dismissed by most people as "not competitive".

Argue your point on the merit of what you are doing Mr Joyce and not on what others are doing. Just because it's a "good idea" OS, doesn't mean it's any good here!
He was speaking to the great unwashed via the media. The media demand short "sound bite" sized explanations. But Buster, surely you understand why they charge for endorsements here in Australia? - it is a frequently discussed subject right here on prune.

[RENURPP]

Thats really interesting aircraft

If you know so well what he means, maybe you should be his media spokesman, because thats not what he said.

[Mud Skipper]

So, asking the question again.. Any idea how many external, ie EK etc, pilots they have actually attracted to their idea of a fair pay packet?

No doubt RH and JPC members are going to do CCQ from the A320 as they pushed the deal I guess they think it's good.

Initial 4 aircraft start going soon so I suspect they require 20-25 crews minimum.

Or are the numbers not stacking up for Joyce and he's upset, this may explain why he appears to be lashing out with such an emotional diatribe?

[Z Force]

The story that I have heard is that there was no where near the amount of applicants that Jetstar are quoting and that they may well have to use contract pilots. Only time will tell.

[Buster Hyman]

For example, think of the quotes you get from two plumbers to fix your toilet - one for $200 and the other for $150 - the higher priced plumber would be dismissed by most people as "not competitive".
Indeed, most people would go the cheaper option everytime. What they fail to ask is "Why is he cheaper? What am I not getting?" The answer is very obvious with Jet* & DJ, you're getting a bus ticket to fly. If that's what you want, and plenty of people seem to, then great, no problem here. Perhaps its best if they never realise the real cost of their "cheap" fare, or plumber. People don't want to know how cheap an iPOD is to produce either. We look at the reports coming out of the factory in China, think "Tsk, tsk Apple" and then carry on listening.

I don't involve myself with the Endorsement argument as it's really not affecting me, so I keep my observations very broad. Whilst I don't think its "right", I also think that if the modern wannabee is happy to pay it, who am I to interfere. Stating that QF (and I guess former AN) are overpaid is a gross misrepresentation of the facts. They were paid according to wage negotiation. The employees & the employer agreed to the rate. Acting like a sniper from the sidelines is a sad indictment on the Australian aviation industry today.

As for his sound bite...well, it's just a pathetic statement from him. He sounds just like Bratt whingeing to a teacher on the playground. It seems that the industry is turning into a Lemming colony.:rolleyes:

[BAE146]

Z force

..........and that they may well have to use contract pilots

What are contract pilots ? If you are referring to agency pilots it's highly unlikely they will be attracted to Jetstar as the money won't be there. They certainly wouldn't pay for a rating, then give Parc or Rishworths a percentage of wages and pay Oz tax. :confused:

Al knows the fix - drop the endorsement cost and bond the crews. You'll then get your pilots. :ok:

P.S. I'ld come and work as your financial advisor Joycey but I'm having too much fun in the sand at the moment and plus you couldn't pay me enough !;)

[Oliver Klozof]

"Mr Joyce said Jetstar's rates of pay were in line with several Asian airlines and "a number of North American carriers that have gone into chapter 11 [bankruptcy]". US Airways was one example."
Splendid. How about we start comparing QF executive salaries to those in asia?

[aircraft]

RENURPP said:
Thats really interesting aircraft

If you know so well what he means, maybe you should be his media spokesman, because thats not what he said.

So why don't you tell us what he really said? I was quoting from the newspaper article, which was itself quoting Joyce.

And after you reveal what he really said, would you again like me to tell you what he means?

What was that about the last line on that web page? I looked at it (yesterday in fact) but couldn't see anything wrong with it. Please just tell me what was wrong with it!

[pakeha-boy]

Ultralights.....USAirways is not in bankruptcy....was...we.. AWA saved the scurvy dogs backsides from walking the streets and now they are kicking us in the teeth for it....my advice ....dont take or use any advice from Nth American Airlines....:mad:

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

aircraft, don't bother applying for any job that has an English comprehension test because you'll fail.

[Keg]

Let's not forget the standing order out to QF A330 crew asking if they'd like to jump in with J* for the short term whilst they (J*) build their 'experience'. :rolleyes: (Having a dig at Joyce, not J* crew of those who seek to join).

:ugh:

[RENURPP]

Aircraft


He means that they are paid in excess of what he considers the market rates for pilots to be.

first, I am not doubting your quote. This is what I said! (my bolding)
If you know so well what he means,
I am doubting your explanation of the quote. The question remains, how do you know what Joyce means?

If you can't see the problem on the sight, well.......................enough said.

[Hugh Jarse]

Keg,
Considering the current level of engagement, do you think anyone will raise a hand in answer to the FOSO?

It's a genuine question.

[Vee Won Kutt]

Did you take your laptop into the hospital Jarse? Or did they kick you out?

How did it go mate?

[Keg]

Only someone who wanted to see how the other half lived Jarse....although maybe a couple of them will get an offer that they can't refuse! It wouldn't be the first QF driver to be more formally 'seconded' to J*. :E There is at least one since the A320 came along he's a top bloke! :ok:

[Hugh Jarse]

Keg,
I wouldn't imagine that anyone would go voluntarily, notwithstanding management pilots who might be "obligated" to.

WVK,
No I didn't. That was the last thing on my mind.:ooh: They made me stay longer than expected because I did a Norman Gunston. No morphine this time made it an almost pleasant experience:} None of this:yuk: :yuk:
Talk about gettin' spoilt. Thumbs up to the girls at North Shore Private ;) Back on the sticks again for a few weeks. Won't know for a couple of weeks as to the success or otherwise of the procedure:ugh:

[Vee Won Kutt]

Anyone going to switch over from the Sharks/Knights game to watch a story on QF/ J*......anyone?..... anyone????
What was this all about??? Are you talking about 'The Chasers'???? Did anyone see it??? If so what happened????

Thanks

[aircraft]

RENURPP,

If the context of the Joyce Q&A session with the media is as implied by the article, then there can be no other interpretation of his meanings than what I have given you.

That last sentence on the web page has got me really intrigued. This is a copy and paste of it:

Jetstar is a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas Airways Ltd but is managed separately and operates independently. Our headquarters is in Melbourne.

On my inability to spot what was wrong with it, Enema Bandit's Dad said "aircraft, don't bother applying for any job that has an English comprehension test because you'll fail." And you, RENURPP, said "If you can't see the problem on the sight, well.......................enough said."

The poster that first referred to the sentence, CaptainToBe said there were grammatical errors in it.

There are no grammatical errors in it. There are no spelling mistakes in it.

"English comprehension" refers to a person's ability to understand what has been said or written. What is in this sentence that cannot be understood?

If you lot are referring to a factual error then I may have missed it, but factual errors are nothing like grammatical errors and have nothing to do with one's ability to comprehend english!

Do you think it should say "our headquarters are in Melbourne"? If so, then you are wrong and I will get great enjoyment from telling you what this statement really means!

[Buster Hyman]

"...but is managed separately and operates independently."


http://www.smh.com.au/ffxImage/urlpicture_id_1077384638218_2004/02/22/3jetstar.jpg


Riiiight....:rolleyes:

[murgatroid]

"...but is managed separately and operates independently."

That's the problem! J* do as J* wants regardless of the implications to the rest of QF. How senior management or shareholders allow this to happen is incomprehensible.

Does J* care that by "taking" the QF A330's it puts much greater pressure on QF profitability - NO!

Does J* care that reduction of A330 fleet in QF reduces economies of scale - NO!

Does J* care that dozens of pilots are now surplus on the A330 and QF will incur significant cost retraining them - NO!

Does J* care that negotiating with 2500 mainline pilots could have achieved far greater company wide productivity gains in return for the J* flying - NO!

Does J* care that flying Avalon - Perth poaches punters from one of QF most profitable domestic sectors (MEL - PER) - NO!

Does J* care that replacement of QF flights to Tas, OOL, etc - has lost a lot of QF loyal QF high yield regulars - NO!

Does J* care that J* is good news to Virgin since it now allows Virgin to offer better service and get better yields to the places J* replaced QF - NO!

Does J* care that when J* International stuggles with difficult price and political markets it will simply up its yields by taking QF routes (look out china/india) - NO!

Does J* care that it is not a good idea nor mature to publicly slander employees of the parent compnay - NO!

and probably lots more I can't think of yet.

[B A Lert]

Does Jet* care that many back-office functions are being performed by Qantas, at little or without cost, since Jet* has neither the skills, knowledge nor network to get things done so they can operate intenationally?

[murgatroid]

Does J* care that the cross subsidised fuel surcharges pose additional costs on QF only - NO!

Does J* care that a significant source of QF success is it's reputation. Reputation founded on safety, professionalism and pride in it's employees - engineering and operational. And comments of "overpaid" etc from such a high level executive is damaging to that reputation. - NO!

Does J* remember when QF used to advertise the professionalism of it's pilots and enjoy an extremely congenial relationship with them. A relationship destroyed by 2 individuals - AJ and GD.

[Buster Hyman]

Does J* know that by driving a wedge between QF staff & it's own staff, that it will help the QF brand offload many "high cost" employees and practices that have impacted upon QF & its shareholders - ABSO-FRIGGIN-LUTELY!:mad:

[Capn Bloggs]

ABSO-FRIGGIN-LUTELY

Now now Buster! STOP reminding us of THAT. That and Enya...:yuk: :} :ok:

[Buster Hyman]

Considering the circumstances, I thought it appropriate.:E

[Enema Bandit's Dad]

Sorry aircraft, I stand to be corrected seeing that you finished school not so long ago I guess you must know. It is rather obvious that you are very intelligent as you seem to be an expert on everything.

[Mstr Caution]

That last line on the bottom of the web page should read;

"Jetstar is a wholly owned subsidiary of Qantas Airways Ltd but is managed separately and operates independantly notwithstanding complies with Qantas Policy. Our headquarters is in Melbourne. "

On a ABC radio interview with Luke Williams aired on 16th July 2006. Jetstar spokeman Simon Westaway confirmed that Jetstar complies with Qantas policy.

After all isn't that what a subsidiary is supposed to do.:8

[GenAvman]

Just for any guys who get the chance to be contract pilots for Jokestar remember that line from Jerry Mcguire "show me the money" so you can pay off you're training debts and buy some food for the kids maybe even sell youre 1984 camira and get a new car. Because you know, as soon as they can pay someone as little as possible to replace you, your going down quicker than a lead balloon.:cool:

[Mstr Caution]

GenAvman,

Heard the statement a few days ago "it's a loser pays system"

Quite accurate I thought.:8

[Eagleman]

A question that need to be answered.

I have if on very good authority that the only reason JQ made a profit the first year of operations was due to special, and I mean special, lease rates were given to them by Mother Qantas.

This means, AJ is skating a little thin in his claims that JQ is the only LLC to make a profit in its first year of ops.