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airborne_artist
27th Jul 2006, 09:59
A two-man team recently broke into about 16 houses and sheds in the village. Loads stolen, very little recovered, but the MO and local intelligence directed Plod to the pair. One was found in a town about 25 miles away, and arrested. On being arrested he assaulted an officer with a Scotch kiss.

Up in front of the magistrates, with a request for remand from the Police due to his lack of address (not long been chucked out of an address in the village) and his violence, so they had a better idea and released him on unconditional bail.

So much for John Reid's pretty speech in the House of Commons the other day :ugh:

Mercenary Pilot
27th Jul 2006, 10:27
Of course if he had robbed the magistrate’s house or headbutted his relative, it would have been a stay at HMP somewhere. UK justice, youve gotta love it :yuk:

tony draper
27th Jul 2006, 10:52
They have been tipped the wink,if you want that OBE or Knighthood sometime down the line, don't lock anybody up, its embarrassing our minister to have to admit to such a large prison population.
Thats how its done in the UK.
:rolleyes:

Parapunter
27th Jul 2006, 11:39
Notwithsatnding those who constantly call for longer jail terms...:rolleyes:

Taildragger67
27th Jul 2006, 15:44
http://www.sentencing-guidelines.gov.uk/

Moreover, there's a presumption in favour of granting bail:
http://www.lawteacher.net/ELS/Criminal%20Process/Bail.htm

A bit of guidance from the CPS:
http://www.cps.gov.uk/legal/section14/chapter_l.html#02

tilewood
27th Jul 2006, 19:04
I get the feeling that someday soon we shall begin to read about members
of the long-suffering English public, who, at their wits end with an inept Government, lazy police and liberal judicial system, begin to administer their own summary justice.

Then listen to the establishment start to mutter!! :hmm:

green granite
27th Jul 2006, 19:15
I get the feeling that someday soon we shall begin to read about members
of the long-suffering English public, who, at their wits end with an inept Government, lazy police and liberal judicial system, begin to administer their own summary justice.

Then listen to the establishment start to mutter!! :hmm:

Didn't that happen in drapes part of the world when the police could do nothing about the local tearaways who stole cars and then showed them off doing hand break turns etc to an audience in the town center. Eventually the local hard men rounded them up and beat the living sh**s out of them, problem solved, car crime stopped. Just proves the only thing they understand is an authority that hurts them if they step out of line

tilewood
27th Jul 2006, 19:21
Green Granite you are quoting something that sounds very much
like common sense to me.

Regrettably that is a commodity in very short supply in this country. :hmm:

Mike Jenvey, I am told that after that episode Drapes cuts a striking figure on his old grey mare!!

Unwell_Raptor
27th Jul 2006, 19:45
This thread is stupid and ill-informed. This wasn't a sentence, it was a bail decision. The Bail Act (that's the law,you know) provides for a presumption of a right to bail unless there are 'substantial' grounds to fear that the accused will abscond, commit further offences, or interfere with witnesses. There are others, but they are rare.

The bail decision is biased towards the prosecution because the court has to take the CPS case at its highest.

So those stupid magistrates followed the law. What would you suggest that they do? Call Draper and see what he thinks?

Ignorance may be bliss but on this subject it annoys the f*ck out of me.

amanoffewwords
27th Jul 2006, 19:56
What would you suggest that they do? Call Draper and see what he thinks?
I suspect the answer would always be http://www.planetsmilies.com/smilies/fighting/fighting0045.gif

tilewood
27th Jul 2006, 20:00
This thread is stupid and ill-informed. What would you suggest that they do? Call Draper and see what he thinks?
Ignorance may be bliss but on this subject it annoys the f*ck out of me.

Calm down U R! Keep taking the tablets and pray that your car isn't
stolen, and that neither you or any of your family are burgled, mugged
or otherwise violated. Because you can expect little help from the police, or
legal system if you are that unlucky!! :hmm:

Unwell_Raptor
27th Jul 2006, 20:40
Tilewood:

I apply the law, as I have sworn to do.

What would you rather have me do?

Make it up as I go along, after reading that morning's tabloids?

Please don't be silly.

bjcc
27th Jul 2006, 21:05
As UR says, its the way things are...

So, yes they walk on bail...sometimes they do commit offences while on bail and sometimes they don't. In exactly the same way as those released on licence after conviction sometimes do and sometimes don't.

It's life, I didn't like it,m and I am sure some magistrates don't either, but it doesn't mean they can ignore legislation.

tilewood
27th Jul 2006, 21:48
Tilewood:
I apply the law, as I have sworn to do.
What would you rather have me do?
Make it up as I go along, after reading that morning's tabloids?
Please don't be silly.

A bit like our new Home Secretary, 'Dr' Reid you mean!! ;)

Erwin Schroedinger
28th Jul 2006, 06:11
So, Unwell Raptor, you're telling us that if "it's the law" then it must be right?


Looks to us "silly" types, with that out-of-fashion thing called common sense, that the law needs changing.


But thanks for the (unintentionally) revealing insight as to why were in such a mess. You'll go far. Chief Asylum Runner in no time.



PS. I know a magistrate. Absolute [email protected], severe case of bigotry, definitely unstable mentally.

How, I often wonder when he sees me (but not if I see him first), did he get the job?

Taildragger67
28th Jul 2006, 12:51
So, Unwell Raptor, you're telling us that if "it's the law" then it must be right?
Looks to us "silly" types, with that out-of-fashion thing called common sense, that the law needs changing.


Indeed it might. So make sure you:
a) take it up with your local MP;
b) VOTE at next (or every) opportunity;
c) run for office yourself and change it from the inside.



How, I often wonder when he sees me (but not if I see him first), did he get the job?

Possibly because no-one else was prepared to give up their time to do it.

Laws aren't usually made in a vacuum; politicians are paid to respond to what they're told. That means that the noisy wheels get oiled ie. if some pressure group makes more noise for a change than the 'silent majority' who might be against it, then the law will be changed. The pollies then duly record their deliberations for all to see. It ain't a perfect system but it's worked generally well for some time now. So if you have a gripe, make noise! MPs' contact details are all easily available. Email or call them; write to the papers. It might not make much difference in the end but then again, it might.

That said, the idea in British (actually, English) justice that initial justice should be in the community (explaining why magistrates' courts are local and mags are drawn from the local area) might be argued as giving some justification for the 'local hard men' method described above. Which is, of course, highly illegal...

UniFoxOs
28th Jul 2006, 12:59
The Bail Act (that's the law,you know) provides for a presumption of a right to bail unless there are 'substantial' grounds to fear that the accused will abscond, commit further offences, or interfere with witnesses. .


But it must be the magistrates judgement as to what counts as "substantial", surely. Doesn't the already-committed absconding and violence count???

UFO

Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaargh!
28th Jul 2006, 14:12
So, Unwell Raptor, you're telling us that if "it's the law" then it must be right?no that's not what he's saying at all, though you don't appear to have the wit to comprehend it. What he's saying is that he acts not on a capricious whim, but as part of a system.

I know it's easy to get appoplectic at one exaggerated case that the newspapers blow out of all proportion, and considering all the beneficially resolved cases in balance is no fun at all, but your contribution would be better if it was actually a response to what had been written previously rather than your own narrow perception of it.

Sharia anyone? :}

Ozzy
28th Jul 2006, 19:10
Tilewood:
I apply the law, as I have sworn to do.
What would you rather have me do?
Make it up as I go along, after reading that morning's tabloids?
Please don't be silly.Apply the law properly. Surely not having a fixed place of abode is a black mark against bail. With no place to live there is a higher probability of flight. Also, you would go against the recommendations of the police who have local knowledge of this criminal and let him loose? No wonder the general public think that gits like the magistrates that let this idiot go are completely out of touch and sit there pontificating as a means of inflating their own fecking ego. Makes me sick. :mad:

Ozzy

Unwell_Raptor
28th Jul 2006, 19:29
PS. I know a magistrate. Absolute [email protected], severe case of bigotry, definitely unstable mentally.

How, I often wonder when he sees me (but not if I see him first), did he get the job?

So that's the whole 29,000 of us wrapped up then.

Bastards all.

frostbite
28th Jul 2006, 20:03
Well, two anyway, UR.

The one I know is in his 50s and so unworldly it's beyond belief.

He reminds me of the archetypal anorak, so narrow in his view of life a tunnel view would be more than he could handle.

Quite convinced his mother either dresses him or tells him what to wear.

tart1
28th Jul 2006, 20:15
I suppose in that large a number of people, there is bound to be the odd one who might be a little alternative, or perhaps eccentric, shall we say??

I personally have met many JPs and have found them all to be persons of integrity who take their role very seriously and do their best to apply the law firmly but fairly, 'without fear or favour', according to the oath they swore. Some of them are 'colourful' characters and perhaps I myself am not what you might expect of a 'typical' JP, but that does not make us 'bad' or unfit to carry out the duties with which we have been entrusted.

I do not wish to comment on this case because I have not heard all the facts, which the bench in question will have done. It is easy to judge the presiding magistrates harshly, but they may have had little or no choice in the matter. (I seem to remember off the top of my head that having no fixed abode cannot be used as a reason for refusing bail.)

Believe me, there are times when we all would like to say, 'Flog 'em,' 'Hang 'em,' or whatever but we don't have the power to make emotional judgements in that way. We do have to abide by strict guidelines.

I don't think that if it was a JP's family who was affected that it would make the slightest bit of difference ... so stop slagging all of us off.

These threads are always very unfair on JPs. :(

tilewood
28th Jul 2006, 20:32
I think the problem is the deep seated disillusionment within the country
of much of the Establishment.

People see, or perceive, that the police can't be bothered, that the judiciary
favour the offender over the victim, and the Government is cynical,
media obsessed and corrupt.

Magistrates can only hand down decisions that the law and tariffs allow, that we understand, but because the perception is that the law on many
occasions is an ass, it is nurturing a sense of alienation.

In all my years I cannot remember a time when the foundations on
which our country and society stand have seemed so undermined. :hmm:

tart1
28th Jul 2006, 21:10
Yes, the magistracy and the police always get carpet-bombed don't they??

We are just the tools of the justice system ... the blame must be laid at the door of the government and the 'higher-ups' in the judiciary.

I reckon we do our best under difficult circumstances.

Hey ... all you people who think JPs are rubbish. Apply to be a JP and see if you can do better!! :p :p

frostbite
28th Jul 2006, 21:28
Hey ... all you people who think JPs are rubbish. Apply to be a JP and see if you can do better!! :p :p


I'm not sure I could handle the feelings of helplessness and frustration, not to mention impotence.

Bern Oulli
29th Jul 2006, 17:07
I'm not sure I could handle the feelings of helplessness and frustration, not to mention impotence.
Yep, all of that every time I am in court, plus a great saddness seeing yet another youngish person busily ruining their life. There are also moments of satisfaction when one is able to come up with a sentence that will actually help someone out of the rut they are in, or seeing the relief on the defendant's face when found not guilty despite a somewhat perverse prosecution. Oh, and also the annoyance on seeing the smirk on the face of the one found not guilty because it wasn't "proved beyond reasonable doubt", even though we all "knew" he had done it.
I will not comment on the reported case because, as tart1 has said, we do not know all the facts presented to that bench. However I will mention dear tart1, that being of NFA (for non-beaks = no fixed abode - even stuffed shirt beaks have their own lingo of abbreviations and acronyms) should lead one to consider the accused's lack of community ties when considering the question of bail. Still, we do not know what else was said.

Try it, as tart1 says, or, if you ain't tried it, don't knock it.

Shannon volmet
30th Jul 2006, 10:06
I get the feeling that someday soon we shall begin to read about members
of the long-suffering English public, who, at their wits end with an inept Government, lazy police and liberal judicial system, begin to administer their own summary justice.
Then listen to the establishment start to mutter!! :hmm:
Sorry tilewood, but I have to take issue with the part of your statement that I've highlighted. I worked for the police in Cambridge ( UK ) as a civilian for some years and saw first - hand how difficult their job is. Here in Cambridge-istan I have nothing but praise for the folk in blue. They are severely stretched for manpower and resources and do an extremely good job under the circumstances. There are actually fewer police per head of population here in Cambridge than anywhere else in the UK.


The fault as you rightly point out lies with the judiciary and the government, not the people having to cope with ever shrinking resources and having to make the best of what they are given. This obviously applies to the armed forces, the NHS etc., and unfortunately we are the ones suffering for it. The question is, will the next government do any better, or will it just be more of the same? Only time will tell on that one.:sad: